/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-01-30 / end

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1. # Session Start: Thu Jan 30 00:00:01 2014
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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8. # [00:08] <annevk> Hixie: I think these are libraries that are incompatible with browsers
9. # [00:09] <annevk> Hixie: e.g. browsers have mappings for code points not officially assigned (return the byte as code point rather than U+FFFD iirc)
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13. # [00:09] <Hixie> annevk: well ok but what are the files that people are reading that are incompatible with returning that?
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17. # [00:12] <annevk> Hixie: I don't know
18. # [00:12] <annevk> Hixie: I suspect they simply don't want to change existing behavior
19. # [00:12] <Hixie> i mean, unless there's actual content depending on those other implementations, i would argue it's not a new encoding, it's just a buggy version of the existing encoding
20. # [00:12] <Hixie> win1252 is by definition whatever microsoft implemented, after all
21. # [00:14] <annevk> I'm not sure they would agree with that
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36. # [00:33] <Hixie> annevk: yeah. well. maybe they should check interop more then.
37. # [00:33] <annevk> I don't disagree
38. # [00:33] <annevk> The only complaints I see are about us not matching some other standards body definition
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104. # [01:41] <Hixie> man, do we still not have an answer to people who want a set of push buttons that act like a radio button set?
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107. # [01:43] <annevk> Hixie: aren't forms your area?
108. # [01:43] <Hixie> this is rendering
109. # [01:44] * annevk wonders what a push button is
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111. # [01:44] <annevk> Hixie: ah, your question is whether the CSS WG has finally acknowledged they need to address form control styling?
112. # [01:44] <Hixie> well either CSS or web components, but yeah
113. # [01:44] <Hixie> basically :-)
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115. # [01:45] <Hixie> i mean like a version of <select> that shows adjacent buttons instead of a drop-down
116. # [01:45] <Hixie> like: [ Arr ] [ Dep ]
117. # [01:45] <Hixie> instead of ( ) Arr (o) Dep
118. # [01:45] <Hixie> or [ Arr |v]
119. # [01:46] <annevk> I think components wants to at least explain form controls, but I'm not sure how far that is
120. # [01:46] <annevk> But I don't think there's anyone trying to solve this issue
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122. # [01:46] <Hixie> this is probably the second most important thing to work on, imho
123. # [01:46] <Hixie> in css
124. # [01:47] <Hixie> the first being mobile-related UI stuff
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126. # [01:47] <Hixie> though there might not be much of that needed in the CSS world
127. # [01:48] <annevk> So offline is my #1 thing this year and fixing various issues with all my specs. Forms and UI events were things I was thinking about tackling once I got tired with those
128. # [01:48] <annevk> But I need to consider that more carefully since they are sinkholes
129. # [01:48] <Hixie> yeah
130. # [01:49] <Hixie> i've tried to fix it twice so far
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132. # [01:49] <Hixie> web controls, and xbl
133. # [01:49] <Hixie> someone else's turn now :-)
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145. # [02:04] <Domenic_> I was also considering form styling
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147. # [02:05] <Domenic_> But it's pretty hard to find time given this is a hobby, so things like streams and even promsies seem likely to occupy my free time for quite a while.
148. # [02:06] <annevk> Someone needs to hire you :/
149. # [02:06] <annevk> Yeah, streams are important too
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151. # [02:06] <annevk> But I guess form styling is more overdue
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242. # [04:21] <Domenic_> What did we do before promises? So far i have IDBRequest and File API's successCallback, errorCallback. Were there more?
243. # [04:22] <Domenic_> i guess fullscreen API having you listen to separate events to see if your method call succeeded is another example
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331. # [07:03] <annevk-cloud> Domenic_: fullscreen is different, events are fired in other documents too
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334. # [07:04] <annevk-cloud> Domenic_: also see WebRTC, toBlob on canvas, geolocation (also has more complicated API promises do not work for), etc.
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359. # [07:36] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: thanks for the heads-up about http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=8432&to=8433 (making caption end tag optional)
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361. # [07:37] <zcorpan_> np
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365. # [07:44] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: also about the validator doctype-sniffing option in the REST API yeah, the change is, no sniffing except for opt-in in web service api
366. # [07:45] <MikeSmith> but I don't plan to remove the option to sniff later
367. # [07:45] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: ok, sounds good
368. # [07:45] <MikeSmith> ok thanks
369. # [07:45] <bhanu> hi, I have few queries on recent changes being made on range methods, could anybody help me understand?
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371. # [07:46] <zcorpan_> bhanu: don't ask to ask just ask :-)
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373. # [07:49] <bhanu> ok, here are the queries : first being in DOM2 for setStartBefore/setStartAfter/setEndBefore/setEndAfter the specification says InvalidNodeTypeError should be thrown when root container of refNode is not an Attr, Document, or DocumentFragment node
374. # [07:50] <bhanu> in DOM4 which is a work in draft its mentioned if parent of refNode is null, then throw InvalidNodeTypeError exception
375. # [07:52] <bhanu> again there is no mention about what type of refNode would lead to the InvalidNodeTypeError exception
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378. # [07:54] <zcorpan_> bhanu: you're looking at http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/ yes?
379. # [07:54] <bhanu> zcorpan : yes
380. # [07:56] <zcorpan_> i find http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-range-bp-set
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382. # [07:58] <zcorpan_> so if parent is null or a doctype, you get InvalidNodeTypeError, but doctypes can't have children so it's just if parent is null for those methods
383. # [07:59] <bhanu> parent specification is fine
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386. # [08:01] <bhanu> If I am not wrong the root node requirement is eradicated right which was there is in DOM2?
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389. # [08:01] <zcorpan_> oh so dom2 throws if the root is e.g. an element?
390. # [08:01] <bhanu> yes
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392. # [08:02] <bhanu> I believe that is why this change is brought in
393. # [08:02] <zcorpan_> yeah i don't see that in the dom spec. what do browsers do?
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396. # [08:03] <bhanu> I tried in chrome and mozilla, it doesn't throw any exception
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398. # [08:03] <bhanu> but its a old bug in webkit
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400. # [08:06] <bhanu> again there was restriction on the refNode in DOM2 i.e it shouldn't be any of Document, DocumentFragment, Attr, Entity, or Notation node
401. # [08:06] <bhanu> which i don't see in DOM4
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403. # [08:09] <zcorpan_> i'd recommend ignoring what dom2 says and go by what the new spec says and what browsers do (in case all browsers disagree with the spec, maybe the spec should be changed)
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405. # [08:10] <bhanu> ok, thanks
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455. # [09:37] <gsnedders> Is there any way to make a table split into columns using CSS?
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478. # [10:21] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: doesn't the html spec do that for the entity table?
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481. # [10:22] <zcorpan_> Hixie: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24411 seems like a bug for html, right?
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483. # [10:26] <zcorpan_> TabAtkins: do you plan to fix https://github.com/ResponsiveImagesCG/picture-element/issues/91 soon? it seems imperative to actually implementing the spec and writing tests
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500. # [11:24] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: I couldn't get CSS Multicol to work :(
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502. # [11:27] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: the spec's entity table multicols for me in presto and blink
503. # [11:29] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: I dunno. I was trying really quickly just before printing stuff out.
504. # [11:30] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: WDYT about https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24439 ?
505. # [11:31] <zcorpan_> dom consistency was an argument in 2006 but maybe it's not so important today?
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521. # [12:15] <jgraham> zcorpan_: see https://tbpl.mozilla.org/php/getParsedLog.php?id=33794007&tree=Cedar the tests seem to time out in gecko? Could be expected I suppose
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523. # [12:19] <zcorpan_> jgraham: do you have https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/534 in?
524. # [12:19] <zcorpan_> jgraham: the css tests don't time out in gecko for me
525. # [12:20] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: commented on the bug
526. # [12:20] <zcorpan_> jgraham: only 'loading webvtt <track>' which is expected (it's a gc bug i think)
527. # [12:20] <jgraham> zcorpan_: Not sure, my sync is a bit out of date, but I can fix that easilly enough
528. # [12:21] <jgraham> zcorpan_: OK. The weird thing is that those tests supposedly didn't time out on my machine. But that doesn't seem to be reproducable.
529. # [12:21] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: thx
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537. # [12:35] <zcorpan_> jgraham: hmm. i'm confused. i want to move the structured clone tests from Workers to workers, but in my working copy git has them at both locations. :-S
538. # [12:37] <zcorpan_> jgraham: could you try moving them?
539. # [12:38] <jgraham> zcorpan_: I see files in Workers/semantics/structured-clone/ but nothing else under Workers. They don't seem to be under workers/
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541. # [12:40] <zcorpan_> yeah that matches what the web interface says on github, but in my checkout i have all the tests in both locations. dunno if something gets confused by the names differing only by case or something
542. # [12:41] <jgraham> zcorpan_: OK, I moved the files that were in Workers
543. # [12:41] <zcorpan_> thanks!
544. # [12:41] <jgraham> So now that shouldn't exist at all
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596. # [14:42] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I can't recall what his views are on conneg
597. # [14:43] <MikeSmith> but one thing that's disturbing about CH is its potential giving of new life to conneg
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603. # [14:50] <yoav> MikeSmith: Do you hold negative views RE conneg even if it's server-initiated opt-in conneg? Because that's what CH is
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607. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> yoav: I am keeping an open mind but I think it's pretty clear that conneg on the Web so far has not been a big success
608. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> maybe CH will change that
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610. # [14:58] <yoav> On the one hand I agree (Content-Encoding being the best example). On the other hand, I believe 'key' and TLS may change that.
611. # [14:58] <yoav> And opt-in conneg has very limited risk
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613. # [14:58] <MikeSmith> yeah relatively
614. # [14:59] <yoav> If it doesn't work, we can remove it. No risk of polluting requests forever.
615. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> that's definitely a nice aspect
616. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> I'm curious why hsivonen thought Haakon might have a particular opinion on CH
617. # [15:00] <yoav> Now I am too :)
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636. # [15:25] <zcorpan_> yoav: if we implement CH and sites start to rely on it being supported, it can't be removed
637. # [15:27] * jgraham thinks that CH is probably not Switzerland, but hasn't yet figured out what it is
638. # [15:28] <Ms2ger> * hsivonen wonders if howcome has an opinion on Client Hints
639. # [15:29] <jgraham> Yes, but what does CH stand for? ;)
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646. # [15:39] <ondras> Cyanide & Happiness ?
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672. # [16:11] <whinzou> hello
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708. # [16:42] * GPHemsley wonders what a Client Hint is
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710. # [16:45] <MikeSmith> Internet Draft
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712. # [16:45] <MikeSmith> GPHemsley: ↑
713. # [16:46] <MikeSmith> from Ilya at Google
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718. # [16:50] <jory> So in theory Client Hints would allow mobile devices to specify different DPRs depending on available bandwidth...
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790. # [18:19] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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792. # [18:21] <jcgregorio> good morning dglazkov
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829. # [19:04] <annevk> Domenic_: new delay() looks better
830. # [19:04] <annevk> Domenic_: seems about the same as saying to return and run the remaining steps async
831. # [19:05] <Domenic_> yeah
832. # [19:05] <Domenic_> as i said might abandon that attempt to make things make more sense to me
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880. # [20:10] <annevk> Hixie: http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/y2014-m01/0053.html explains the situation
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882. # [20:11] <Hixie> that e-mail... makes no sense
883. # [20:12] <annevk> :-)
884. # [20:12] <Ms2ger> Did you look at the mailing list it was sent to first?
885. # [20:12] <Hixie> what's wrong with "windows1252" as the name?
886. # [20:12] <Hixie> windows-1252, even
887. # [20:12] <Ms2ger> Already taken
888. # [20:12] <annevk> I think the context is a Python library, but I'm not completely sure
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891. # [20:15] <Hixie> Ms2ger: isn't it already taken to mean exactly what this guy means? "what browsers do"?
892. # [20:15] <Ms2ger> I dunno
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904. # [20:27] <annevk> Hixie: I think we convinced TC39 to take on structured cloning; might take a while for it to be integrated and such though
905. # [20:27] <Hixie> when you say "take on structured cloning"
906. # [20:27] <Hixie> you mean "provide hooks for structured cloning", right?
907. # [20:27] <Hixie> i mean, i don't want us to change to non-DOM exceptions and all that just because it moves to a new forum
908. # [20:28] <annevk> Hixie: yeah, and define how it behaves for new objects themselves
909. # [20:28] <annevk> Hixie: DOMException is going to be just another Error subclass
910. # [20:29] <annevk> Hixie: the plan is to move it to IDL and have IDL provide the hooks for throwing
911. # [20:29] <annevk> Hixie: rather than DOM
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913. # [20:30] <Hixie> so long as it's not churning on authors for no good reason
914. # [20:31] <annevk> I think apart from going to getter/setter to data properties it would remain identical and would make it clear that no new exceptions are to be minted outside IDL
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918. # [20:41] <jory> Hey I wanted to update a broken link on the wiki.
919. # [20:42] <jory> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MetaExtensions
920. # [20:42] <jory> The viewport-meta link is broken.
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922. # [20:42] <annevk> jory: go ahead
923. # [20:44] <jory> annevk: It says I need to get access from one of the IRC regulars
924. # [20:44] <annevk> jory: PM me your desired username and password
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931. # [20:55] <jcgregorio> Hixie: Canvas "Path" vs "Path2D" http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2013Nov/0138.html
932. # [20:55] <jcgregorio> is there agreement to update the spec?
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934. # [20:55] <annevk> Isn't it weird if Path is the only thing with a suffix?
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938. # [20:56] <Hixie> jcgregorio: i thought safari had shipped with it as Path
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941. # [20:58] <jcgregorio> Hixie, I'll have to check that, I was under the impression no one had implemented it yet
942. # [20:59] <Hixie> there's been discussion of it on the whatwg list, but i can't find my last e-mail on the topic
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944. # [21:00] <jcgregorio> annevk: true, also for the sake of symmetry it's not like there's a lot of *3D objects in WebGL
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946. # [21:00] <Hixie> i guess http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2013Nov/0125.html is the last thing from me on it
947. # [21:01] <Domenic_> new goal in life: be the first to spec a 4D-suffixed class
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949. # [21:02] <jcgregorio> Hixie: sgtm, thanks
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951. # [21:03] <Hixie> jcgregorio: at the end of the day i'll spec whatever ships most widely, obviously
952. # [21:05] <annevk> Safari has Path
953. # [21:05] <annevk> We should not rename
954. # [21:06] <annevk> Proof: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2788
955. # [21:06] <annevk> jcgregorio: Hixie: ^^
956. # [21:07] <jcgregorio> annevk: thanks!
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959. # [21:08] <Hixie> annevk: can you get it to do anything?
960. # [21:09] <Hixie> annevk: e.g. http://goo.gl/iXggPJ
961. # [21:10] <Hixie> annevk: doesn't do anything?
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965. # [21:13] <annevk> Hixie: hmm
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967. # [21:14] <annevk> hober: ^^
968. # [21:14] * annevk is fixing URLSearchParams
969. # [21:16] <MikeSmith> annevk: did you see that othermaciej mentioned he's implementing the URL spec?
970. # [21:17] <annevk> MikeSmith: yeah talked about it with him
971. # [21:17] <othermaciej> I told annevk in person :-)
972. # [21:18] <othermaciej> I will probably land the first patch today
973. # [21:18] <MikeSmith> cool
974. # [21:18] <othermaciej> but it is missing features and super buggy from the parsing and part replacement perspective
975. # [21:18] <othermaciej> annevk: btw I hate 'URLUtils' as an interface name
976. # [21:18] <othermaciej> annevk: it really should be something like 'URLParts' or 'URLDecomposition' or something
977. # [21:18] <annevk> hah, I copied something from Hixie I think
978. # [21:18] <annevk> that might be better
979. # [21:19] <annevk> it's not exposed to script though
980. # [21:19] <othermaciej> yeah I know
981. # [21:19] <othermaciej> but I matched the interface name in our IDL anyway
982. # [21:19] <othermaciej> (so people reading our code and the spec don't get confused)
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1060. # [22:56] <Hixie> foolip: you around? you got any ideas for how to fix https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24350 ?
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The end :)