/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-02-03 / end

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  534. #
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  536. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  540. # [02:28] -hubbard.freenode.net:#whatwg- [freenode-info] channel trolls and no channel staff around to help? please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
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  575. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  579. # Session Close: Mon Feb 03 03:04:04 2014
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  586. # [03:24] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  673. # Session Close: Mon Feb 03 04:20:39 2014
  674. #
  675. # Session Start: Mon Feb 03 04:20:39 2014
  676. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  680. # [04:37] -hubbard.freenode.net:#whatwg- [freenode-info] please register your nickname...don't forget to auto-identify! http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
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  687. #
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  689. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  693. # [04:56] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  694. # [04:56] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
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  727. # Session Close: Mon Feb 03 05:16:36 2014
  728. #
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  730. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  733. # Session Close: Mon Feb 03 05:23:16 2014
  734. #
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  736. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  739. # Session Close: Mon Feb 03 05:36:53 2014
  740. #
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  745. # [05:49] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  746. # [05:49] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
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  780. #
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  782. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  789. # Session Close: Mon Feb 03 06:07:56 2014
  790. #
  791. # Session Start: Mon Feb 03 06:07:56 2014
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  795. # [06:10] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  796. # [06:10] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
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  855. #
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  857. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  861. # [06:40] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  862. # [06:40] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
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  907. # [07:04] * dickson.freenode.net changes topic to 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  918. # [07:15] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  919. # [07:15] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
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  944. # [07:58] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
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  971. # [08:16] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  972. # [08:16] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
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  1605. # [11:28] <zcorpan> should DOMException have [Exposed] also? annevk-cloud__ heycam|away
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  1647. # [12:01] <annevk> zcorpan: DOMException will be defined as part of IDL
  1648. # [12:01] <annevk> zcorpan: in terms of JavaScript
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  1651. # [12:02] <annevk> hmm not being logged
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  1826. # [14:20] <annevk> oh, is
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  1840. # [14:23] <zcorpan_> annevk: ok. could you put in a note saying that the plan is to have it available in workers?
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  1848. # [14:29] <annevk> What's the rush?
  1849. # [14:29] <annevk> Is [Expsosed] even defined for non-interface things?
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  1886. # [15:06] <MikeSmit1> about https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24480 maybe we should add back the "Web developer view" button
  1887. # [15:06] <MikeSmit1> or "Hide UA implementation details" or whatever it was called
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  1905. # [15:09] <MikeSmit1> because the commenter appears to be perturbed about the "run synthetic click activation steps" algorithm being in the section that gives info about the various types of content (flow, phrasing, etc.)
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  1907. # [15:09] <MikeSmit1> and because the experiment of providing a separate "Developer Edition" spec doesn't appear to have become a huge success
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  1934. # [15:12] <annevk> It hasn't?
  1935. # [15:12] <annevk> People rave about it on Twitter quite often
  1936. # [15:12] <annevk> developers.whatwg.org that is
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  1960. # [15:12] <MikeSmit1> really?
  1961. # [15:12] <MikeSmit1> I guess I'm just out of touch
  1962. # [15:13] <MikeSmit1> and personally I really prefer Hixie's styling to the styling in that developer version
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  1966. # [15:14] <MikeSmit1> I find that developer version harder to read
  1967. # [15:14] <Ms2ger> Habit? :)
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  1975. # [15:16] <annevk> MikeSmit1: also, the person giving feedback in that bug is zcorpan, he's well aware of all those things
  1976. # [15:17] <MikeSmit1> eh?
  1977. # [15:17] <Ms2ger> "The MathML3 DTD has been updated"
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  1979. # [15:17] <Ms2ger> Good that someone is doing useful work
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  1981. # [15:17] <MikeSmit1> annevk: zcorpan filed that bug?
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  1984. # [15:17] <MikeSmit1> oh yeah I see he did
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  2029. # [15:34] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: i filed it because of https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24473
  2030. # [15:34] * MikeSmith loooks
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  2034. # [15:35] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
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  2037. # [15:37] <Domenic_> I <3 the developer version and refer people to it often
  2038. # [15:37] <zcorpan_> annevk: no rush but it might help test writers an implementers when deciding what self.DOMException should be in workers :-)
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  2041. # [15:38] <annevk> zcorpan_: what is self.Error in a worker?
  2042. # [15:39] <annevk> I suspect we're basically waiting for heycam to recover from jetlag at this point
  2043. # [15:39] <annevk> Unless he went somewhere else after Seattle
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  2046. # [15:41] <zcorpan> annevk: it's a function
  2047. # [15:41] <zcorpan> annevk: everything defined in JS is available in workers i think
  2048. # [15:42] * kritChangedHisNa is now known as krit
  2049. # [15:42] <Ms2ger> I would assume that, yes
  2050. # [15:43] <annevk> So http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-%realm%.prototype.eval lacks a hook for CSP
  2051. # [15:43] <annevk> Domenic_: should I just file a bug against JS for that?
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  2073. # [15:55] <annevk> I filed https://bugs.ecmascript.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2494
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  2122. # [16:27] <Domenic_> annevk: interesting. might be worth bringing in dave to the conversation since i think he's heading up the realm work.
  2123. # [16:28] <annevk> Domenic_: added dherman
  2124. # [16:32] * jorendorff_away is now known as jorendorff
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  2127. # [16:39] <annevk> Domenic_: I'm curious if there's more such trickery
  2128. # [16:40] <Domenic_> annevk: I think in pure ES5, eval and Function are the only eval-er.
  2129. # [16:41] <Domenic_> ES6 adds Realm and GeneratorFunction; it might add some stuff in Loader but I think that was all encapsulated by Realm.
  2130. # [16:41] <annevk> Domenic_: there's structured clones of course which apparently are handled in the JS engine already
  2131. # [16:41] <annevk> Seems bad to set these precedents that specification authors can just hack the JS engine on the side, although you wouldn't want to gate everything on TC39 either
  2132. # [16:41] <Domenic_> yeah...
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  2153. # [16:44] <annevk> Oooh, so Realm needs a flag too for CSP
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  2158. # [16:48] <Domenic_> Loader too http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-loader.prototype.eval
  2159. # [16:48] <Domenic_> Hmm both reference IndirectEval but that doesn't exist according to Ctrl+F
  2160. # [16:48] <Domenic_> seems like this stuff is still WIP
  2161. # [16:49] <annevk> Note that I also filed a complaint with those responsible: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webappsec/2014Feb/
  2162. # [16:50] <annevk> At some point we need some kind of low-tolerance policy for forking someone else their algorithm in your own specification without prior coordination
  2163. # [16:51] * Ms2ger looks for someone with experience with the v8 api
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  2166. # [16:52] * ondras has some
  2167. # [16:53] <ondras> being the author of an embedding alternative to node
  2168. # [16:53] <ondras> Ms2ger: ^
  2169. # [16:53] <ondras> but I have to leave soon, so I might reply later
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  2174. # [17:02] <gsnedders> Domenic_: Function isn't relevant as an eval-er in ES5, given it's creates a new scope whose containing environment is the global-scope.
  2175. # [17:03] <gsnedders> (likewise indirect eval)
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  2184. # [17:06] <Domenic_> gsnedders: I imagine CSP still cares.
  2185. # [17:06] * arv_ is now known as arv
  2186. # [17:06] <Domenic_> if CSP doesn't care about indirect eval then it won't care about Loader or Realm either
  2187. # [17:06] <annevk> It cares
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  2189. # [17:07] <Domenic_> annevk: changes to the URL spec seem pretty great.
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  2191. # [17:08] <annevk> I like my new advice section
  2192. # [17:08] <annevk> I made it up in bed in SF and then forgot about it for a while
  2193. # [17:08] <gsnedders> Domenic_: Yeah. CSP cares. But CSP also needs to care about things at the DOM level to do what it needs.
  2194. # [17:09] <gsnedders> Domenic_: (e.g., var s = document.createElement("script"); s.textContent = "blah"; document.documentElement.appendChild(s); or whatever)
  2195. # [17:09] <annevk> And fetch. CSP affects all.
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  2197. # [17:09] <gsnedders> This would be so much less confusing if I weren't in two conversations about two different CSPs. :)
  2198. # [17:10] <Domenic_> annevk: still not sure i get "scheme data." An example or two of the decomposition might be useful.
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  2200. # [17:10] <annevk> Domenic_: data:text/html,teehee
  2201. # [17:10] <annevk> text/html,teehee is scheme data, but noted
  2202. # [17:10] <Domenic_> ahhh interesting.
  2203. # [17:11] <zcorpan> annevk: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=580234 is INVALID now right?
  2204. # [17:11] <annevk> zcorpan: yeah I guess
  2205. # [17:11] <annevk> zcorpan: depending on what UAs align on for the URL parser
  2206. # [17:11] <annevk> zcorpan: but yeah, that bug won't be used for aligning that
  2207. # [17:11] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, as long as you have a test :)
  2208. # [17:12] <annevk> Domenic_: most of this rewrite was done to fix blob URLs btw
  2209. # [17:13] <annevk> Domenic_: where we introduce a component called "object" that holds a structured clone of the Blob the scheme data of a "blob" URL points to, which is then used when fetching...
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  2211. # [17:14] <Domenic_> ah interesting... it might be worth pointing out in a non-normative section how blob URLs are indeed covered by the spec. I didn't even think of them, but it's great that they are covered.
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  2218. # [17:14] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: http://web-platform.test:8000/websockets/constructor/017.html
  2219. # [17:14] <annevk> Well, I need to write that integration bit still :-)
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  2221. # [17:15] <annevk> It's going to be fairly explicit once everything is done
  2222. # [17:16] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, nice how I can just click that link now :)
  2223. # [17:16] <zcorpan> hmm i don't get a result for that test
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  2225. # [17:16] <Ms2ger> I get all passes
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  2235. # [17:24] <zcorpan> yeah now i do too. had messed up my working copy
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  2238. # [17:25] <TabAtkins_> Domenic_: What were the Promise changes that were decided against?
  2239. # [17:26] <TabAtkins_> Domenic_: I assume it was "welp, monads suck".
  2240. # [17:26] <TabAtkins_> Also, presented without comment: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Feb/0024.html
  2241. # [17:27] <Ms2ger> I see the stack of links
  2242. # [17:27] <Ms2ger> I see the sender
  2243. # [17:27] * Ms2ger closes tabs
  2244. # [17:27] <Ms2ger> *tab
  2245. # [17:27] * Joins: ehsan_ (~ehsan@66.207.208.102)
  2246. # [17:27] <Ms2ger> And not you
  2247. # [17:27] <TabAtkins_> Good job, you passed the test.
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  2249. # [17:28] * jorendorff is now known as jorendorff_away
  2250. # [17:28] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins_, do you know if there's a way to look at a side-by-side diff of a blink revision?
  2251. # [17:28] <TabAtkins_> No, I don't know.
  2252. # [17:29] * Quits: rubatdub (~khalil@213.188.180.185) (Excess Flood)
  2253. # [17:29] * TabAtkins_ is not much of a Blink dev.
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  2255. # [17:29] * Ms2ger looks for blink devs, then :)
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  2267. # [17:32] <Domenic_> TabAtkins_: yeah that's what it sounds like. Minutes coming out soon...
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  2271. # [17:33] <TabAtkins_> I hate that the existing shitty promises led to monadic promises seeming like a complication rather than a simplification, as they got bolted on to the side.
  2272. # [17:33] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@2a00:801:e0:30:a45c:a378:c1e4:1210)
  2273. # [17:33] <TabAtkins_> And it means that we *will* have the possibility of problems with async maps, as we discussed in the Service Worker f2f. :/
  2274. # [17:33] * Ms2ger sees monads, tunes out
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  2277. # [17:34] <TabAtkins_> Le sigh. I also fucking hate the word "monad", because it's a crappy nonsense word that looks confusing.
  2278. # [17:34] <TabAtkins_> Like using "Functor" for "Mappable".
  2279. # [17:35] <jgraham> "monad" just sounds like a lonely nomad
  2280. # [17:35] <jgraham> Which isn't at all scary
  2281. # [17:35] <TabAtkins_> But anyway, if we're stuck with crappy promises, it means you'll never be able to get a useful API out of an async map.
  2282. # [17:36] <Ms2ger> I also tune out on "responsive images" :)
  2283. # [17:36] <TabAtkins_> Because it'll inherently mix up "failed because the key wasn't in the map" and "key was in the map, but it was for a failed promise".
  2284. # [17:36] <jgraham> I thought there was a whole debate in which you had some way of getting monadic promises to coexist with whatever other people liked
  2285. # [17:36] <TabAtkins_> You'll have to handle both of these completely separate cases in the same .then() branch.
  2286. # [17:36] <TabAtkins_> jgraham: Yes, there was. But Domenic_ is making it sound like people gave up on that at last week's tc39 meeting.
  2287. # [17:36] <TabAtkins_> I'll wait for minutes, I guess.
  2288. # [17:37] <TabAtkins_> (Getting them to coexist is easy - it's basically equivalent to saying that arrays can nest, but we'll also give you an iterator that moves through the flattened array instead so you can pretend they don't.)
  2289. # [17:37] <jgraham> TabAtkins_: There are certain choice words that you should use when people try to make decisions at face to face meetings like that
  2290. # [17:38] <Ms2ger> This is why you're careful with "may": https://twitter.com/aloria/status/429375273625452544
  2291. # [17:38] <TabAtkins_> (Actually it's exactly equivalent to that, because MONADS.)
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  2302. # [17:40] <TabAtkins_> jgraham: I also see the word "gonad" when I write "monad", which isn't great either.
  2303. # [17:42] <annevk> Tentative plan: recast current parser as base URL parser. Introduce new URL parser that invokes that and adds blob magic. Allows rest of the world to pretend blobs don't exist, makes it likely web standards pick the right parser.
  2304. # [17:43] <gsnedders> You should just follow SPJ's view that it is misnamed and should instead be a "warm fuzzy thing", because people won't be scared of it.
  2305. # [17:44] <TabAtkins_> gsnedders: It's not even a *thing*, though. It's an interface or typeclass or abstract base class or trait or whatever-the-hell your language calls "here's some behavior that multiple things can implement".
  2306. # [17:45] <TabAtkins_> Giving it a "thing" name confused me when I first started learning about it, and I'm sure messes with a lot of other people too.
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  2312. # [17:48] <jgraham> Well the same applies to "algebra" or something; it's the name for a set of rules that allow computation. Actually "algebra" is worse because it's the general name to mean any set of rules that allow some kind of abstract computation.
  2313. # [17:49] <jgraham> But I'm not sure that people find algebra confusing because of the name
  2314. # [17:49] <jgraham> They find it confusing because it's hard to internalise a system of rules and the consequences of those rules
  2315. # [17:51] <TabAtkins_> And yet they find it easy to internalize "Mappable" as being "a thing with .map()".
  2316. # [17:51] <TabAtkins_> Or "Iterable" as being "a thing I can iterate".
  2317. # [17:52] <Ms2ger> Or "Monad" as being "a thing I can moon"
  2318. # [17:52] <TabAtkins_> "Monad" is just a terrible name for "Map-then-Flatten-able". (Which, granted, is also a terrible name.)
  2319. # [17:52] <TabAtkins_> You get it, Ms2ger!
  2320. # [17:52] <jgraham> Well iterable is easy because there is only a single operation which is familiar from other contexts
  2321. # [17:53] <TabAtkins_> Monad just combines two extremely familiar operations - map and flatten.
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  2323. # [17:54] <Ms2ger> Flatten?
  2324. # [17:54] * Ms2ger isn't sure he's ever had to use it
  2325. # [17:54] <TabAtkins_> You've never flattened an array?
  2326. # [17:55] <Ms2ger> Not that I can remember
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  2328. # [17:56] <Ms2ger> I certainly wouldn't say its on the same level as map
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  2330. # [17:56] <TabAtkins_> All right. Yeah, I grant that it's less common than "map", but still not anything exotic.
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  2337. # [17:57] <Ms2ger> So it's a map that can push multiple values, or what?
  2338. # [17:57] <TabAtkins_> In terms of arrays and other containers, yeah, that's it. (Or zero values.)
  2339. # [17:57] <TabAtkins_> "Flatten" ends up being a really generic concept that gets stretched all over the place, but for the most common cases, it's just that.
  2340. # [17:57] <Ms2ger> Fascinating
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  2342. # [17:58] <gsnedders> Yay, back on this side of the split!
  2343. # [17:58] <TabAtkins_> (It's just "how do I turn Thing<Thing<Foo>> into Thing<Foo>?".)
  2344. # [17:58] <annevk> You want to avoid the word monad
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  2346. # [17:58] <Ms2ger> That may well be the first time someone managed to explain monads in an understandable way
  2347. # [17:58] <TabAtkins_> Ms2ger: BLAME HASKELL
  2348. # [17:58] <Ms2ger> Sure, I'll blame haskell for a great good
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  2350. # [17:59] <gsnedders> TabAtkins_: A monad is just a definition of a sequence of computational actions. It is pretty much a thing that can do anything.
  2351. # [17:59] <TabAtkins_> Monads are among the simplest things I can describe in terms of generic behaviors, but they've built up this terrible mystique and also everyone's crap at explaining them for no reason I can fathom.
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  2353. # [17:59] <TabAtkins_> gsnedders: So you're also one of the people who's crap at explaining them. ^_^
  2354. # [18:00] <Ms2ger> Clearly :)
  2355. # [18:00] <TabAtkins_> Jumping straight to the "but 'flatten' is really just a way of describing computational sequencing!" is why everyone hates monads.
  2356. # [18:01] <TabAtkins_> You've got a Thing which contains a value. You define .map() so functions can work on the value without caring about the Thing. But sometimes your functions want to return a Thing too, and now you've got nested Things. Define a way to flatten a nested Thing into a single Thing, and you've got monads.
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  2358. # [18:02] <gsnedders> TabAtkins_: It's not even any behaviour.
  2359. # [18:02] <gsnedders> TabAtkins_: It's not really a type.
  2360. # [18:02] <TabAtkins_> Yes, it's a typeclass.
  2361. # [18:02] <TabAtkins_> Or interface, or trait, or ABC.
  2362. # [18:03] <TabAtkins_> Just like "Mappable" isn't a type.
  2363. # [18:03] <TabAtkins_> You don't inherit from Mappable.
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  2380. # [18:04] <gsnedders> A map is a perfectly common name in category theory for functors. :P
  2381. # [18:04] <gsnedders> TabAtkins_: :)
  2382. # [18:04] <gsnedders> TabAtkins_: It's hard to explain *because* it's so abstract.
  2383. # [18:05] <astearns> monads are living mirrors of the entire universe
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  2385. # [18:05] <astearns> (I only ever knew the philosophical term)
  2386. # [18:05] * Ms2ger puts astearns on the list too
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  2393. # [18:06] <TabAtkins_> gsnedders: Only if you're trying to explain it the most abstract terms. Explain it in concrete terms, same as .map(), and nobody gets lost. Let them build up to the abstract shit later, after they've gotten a hold on the most useful forms of it.
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  2395. # [18:06] <TabAtkins_> Most people don't need to know that functions are containers for their return value, and thus are monads, with composition being the flattening operation.
  2396. # [18:07] <TabAtkins_> Sorry, composition is the mapping operation.
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  2400. # [18:07] <TabAtkins_> Flattening is just calling the return value with the same args again.
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  2402. # [18:07] <jgraham> TabAtkins_: Your way gives false insight though
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  2405. # [18:08] <TabAtkins_> jgraham: No, it gives useful insight. All learning goes from concrete to abstract, and most people are actually totally fine with staying at some level of concreteness.
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  2409. # [18:08] <jgraham> You take something that people already understand (lists)
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  2412. # [18:08] <jgraham> And then you say "look this thing is an example of X, so now you understand X"
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  2415. # [18:08] <TabAtkins_> Yes.
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  2417. # [18:09] <jgraham> But they don't. They understand what they understood to begin with.
  2418. # [18:09] <TabAtkins_> For most purposes, you *do* understand X.
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  2421. # [18:09] <jgraham> From your example I couldn't tell you whether any non-list thing was a monad
  2422. # [18:09] <TabAtkins_> Specifically, for the purpose of stopping remarks like "sees monads, tunes out", when we're not doing anything that needs more than that basic understanding.
  2423. # [18:10] <TabAtkins_> jgraham: From my example, no. From my accompanying explanation (map, then flatten), you can.
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  2426. # [18:10] <jgraham> TabAtkins_: "map then flatten" still doesn't tell me anything much
  2427. # [18:11] <TabAtkins_> You map, then you flatten. What's there to tell?
  2428. # [18:11] <TabAtkins_> If you map and end up with a nested Thing, you flatten back to a single Thing.
  2429. # [18:11] <TabAtkins_> It's not complicated. Don't try to make it so.
  2430. # [18:11] <jgraham> I suspect you are taking people from "thing I don't understand" to "thing that TabAtkins_ keeps insisting is easy and to do with lists, but I don't understand and therefore I am too stupid to understand"
  2431. # [18:12] <TabAtkins_> Do you understand "turn a nested Thing<Thing<value>> back to Thing<value>", and how flattening arrays is an example of that?
  2432. # [18:13] <jgraham> TabAtkins_: Sure. For the record, I don't claim to have a good grasp of this, but I am slightly above the level at which I have given examples of how people will not understand
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  2434. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> That's literally all you need to understand for most monads in practice. If you've got a class with a .map() method, and a .flatten() method that will turn it from being nested to being flat, you're good.
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  2436. # [18:15] <gsnedders> Also, "most functions in most languages are actually monads".
  2437. # [18:15] <jgraham> TabAtkins_: So, for example, one of the things that "everyone knows" about Monads is that Haskell uses them for IO (this is small values of "everyone", I admit). But it is entirely unclear from your example how monads work for that. Or for many of the other things that they are used for
  2438. # [18:15] <jgraham> It is also very unclear why one would want to make one's own code monadic
  2439. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> Monads for IO are one of those abstract things that you dont' need to know to understand monads.
  2440. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> jgraham: Sure, that takes a few (easy, concrete) examples to show.
  2441. # [18:16] <TabAtkins_> Arrays (and other containers), Option types, and you're pretty much good.
  2442. # [18:16] <TabAtkins_> The IO monad leverages the "flatten is just a way to sequence computations" abstraction that is way above most uses of monads.
  2443. # [18:20] <jgraham> I'm not sure that map/flatten is very obvious for maybe.
  2444. # [18:21] <jgraham> (which is about the most trivial example)
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  2446. # [18:22] <mathiasbynens> Domenic_: does http://domenic.me/aplus-tests-against-the-browser/ match what’s in ES6 spec draft completely?
  2447. # [18:22] <TabAtkins_> Sure, it's the first step outside of the base "container" concrete examples.
  2448. # [18:23] <TabAtkins_> But it's easy to show - a Maybe either holds a value, or holds nothing. When you map, you either map the value and return a new Maybe holding the return value, or just return an empty Maybe again.
  2449. # [18:23] <Domenic_> mathiasbynens: it matches a subset of the ES6 spec.
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  2451. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> If you have nested Maybes (because your mapped function also returned a Maybe), then you flatten a Maybe<Maybe<val>> into just a Maybe<val>, and a Maybe<Nothing> into a Nothing.
  2452. # [18:24] <mathiasbynens> Domenic_: thanks for confirming
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  2454. # [18:25] <TabAtkins_> (Maybe can be implemented as an Array that holds either 0 or 1 values, where its .map() is Array.map(), and it's .flatten() is Array.flatten().)
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  2463. # [18:35] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  2465. # [18:38] <aleray> hi, using html5lib python I would like to clean up a webpage. For instance I would like to remove (including it's content) the script tags
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  2467. # [18:39] <aleray> I'm confused between filters, tokenizer and sanitizer
  2468. # [18:39] <aleray> what is the difference?
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  2473. # [18:54] <gsnedders> aleray: The honest answer is the sanitizer API is a mess and needs completely changed. If you want something more stable, Bleach may or may not be suitable for your purposes.
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  2476. # [18:55] <jgraham> (Bleach uses html5lib internally)
  2477. # [18:56] <gsnedders> (But provides a stable API, and will magically stay up-to-date with html5lib when all the breakage happens there.)
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  2479. # [18:56] <jgraham> But basically the tokenizer takes the tokens produced by reading the HTML before they are built into a tree (start-tag, end-tag, etc.)
  2480. # [18:57] <jgraham> Using this for sanitising is rather broken and will not be supported in the future
  2481. # [18:57] <gsnedders> s/sanitising/anything/
  2482. # [18:57] <jgraham> Using it for treebuilding is just fine :)
  2483. # [18:58] * Phae_ is now known as Phae
  2484. # [18:58] <jgraham> A filter is something that runs on the output of a treewalker. A treewalker is something that takes a parsed HTML tree and produces a series of events like start-tag, end-tag, etc. that would reconstruct that tree
  2485. # [18:58] <gsnedders> Some filters currently operate (and only work) on the tokeniser. Such as the sanitizer.
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  2487. # [18:59] <jgraham> So it's a bit like a tokenizer with different input
  2488. # [18:59] <jgraham> No, no
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  2490. # [18:59] <jgraham> The sanitiser tries to operate on both
  2491. # [18:59] <jgraham> Badly
  2492. # [18:59] <gsnedders> But only works on the tokenizer. It will *always* fail with a tree-walker.
  2493. # [18:59] <gsnedders> Though it tries to work with it.
  2494. # [19:00] <jgraham> A serializer takes the output from a tree walker, possibly after it passed though a filter, and writes it as markup
  2495. # [19:01] <jgraham> So the setup you want is tokenizer -> treebuilder -> treewalker -> sanitizer filter -> serializer
  2496. # [19:01] <jgraham> But that doesn't wuite work right now
  2497. # [19:01] <jgraham> *quite
  2498. # [19:01] <gsnedders> I think it might if the document has no attributes.
  2499. # [19:01] <jgraham> (the first two parts are just called "parser")
  2500. # [19:01] <gsnedders> On the other hand, the probability of having a document with no attributes… :)
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  2503. # [19:07] <annevk> http://esdiscuss.org/topic/specification-styles#content-11 Well, anti-IDL camp, curious to see your move :-)
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  2507. # [19:11] <annevk> Domenic_: you're missing that there's associated state with running a script
  2508. # [19:11] <Domenic_> annevk: I don't get it. What state. Where is it captured.
  2509. # [19:11] <Domenic_> Is this another thing where DOM specs have forked ES execution semantics?
  2510. # [19:12] <Domenic_> so that [[Call]] takes some invisible parameter in DOM land?
  2511. # [19:12] <annevk> Domenic_: it's script thread state
  2512. # [19:12] <annevk> Domenic_: no, it's just some global associated with the current task
  2513. # [19:12] <annevk> Domenic_: ES is just not complete in its task description
  2514. # [19:12] <Domenic_> so that state isn't captured in the ES spec anywhere?
  2515. # [19:12] <aleray> gsnedders, sorry I missed your answer.
  2516. # [19:12] <annevk> Domenic_: it doesn't have tasks
  2517. # [19:13] <aleray> I'm actually using bleach, but I don't find how to remove a tag and its content (eg. script tags)
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  2519. # [19:14] <Domenic_> .then, and ES in general, does not specify or care about this DOM thing. It just invokes [[Call]]. If window.postMessage.bind(...) has a special [[Call]] that uses some global state, then it needs to be specified by window.postMessage; it's not the promise spec's job
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  2521. # [19:15] <aleray> gsnedders, so if I don't want to use bleach, I'd rather use filters right?
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  2523. # [19:18] <annevk> Domenic_: ES5 doesn't queue tasks
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  2537. # [19:50] <SimonSapin__> annevk-cloud: I don’t really like the idea of "initial value" for the components of URL objects
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  2539. # [19:51] <SimonSapin__> or rather, baking mutability in the standard
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  2542. # [20:01] <SimonSapin__> annevk-cloud: Should the model also define constraints like "in the ASCII range" or "ASCII digits" (port) ?
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  2559. # [20:10] <SimonSapin__> annevk-cloud: Also, was it deliberate to go with a "flat" model where every component always exists, rather than expressing in the model constraints like "scheme data is exclusive with (user, password, host, port, path)"? https://github.com/SimonSapin/rust-url/blob/1db0239ec2c2cfcee5b7fb6e7402571844cb2135/url.rs#L33
  2560. # [20:10] -tomaw- [Global notice] Hi all. We're still investigating issues with services (ChanServ and NickServ). They're back now but missing a couple of bits of functionality namely nick enforcement and SASL dh-blowfish support. Further updates via wallops.
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  2580. # [20:49] <jsbell> TabAtkins_: Any motion on (or interest in) EventStream since last April?
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  2589. # [21:00] <TabAtkins_> jsbell: Nope.
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  2616. # [21:28] <SimonSapin> annevk-cloud: only file URLs can have a null host, right?
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  2640. # [22:19] <smaug____> dglazkov: I assume with http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Feb/0032.html you mean that blink will ship something but changes are still expected
  2641. # [22:19] <smaug____> to shadow dom handling
  2642. # [22:19] <smaug____> (like event propagation and what not)
  2643. # [22:20] <dglazkov> smaug____: yep
  2644. # [22:20] <smaug____> and you just want some css stuff to be a bit more stable
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  2646. # [22:20] <TabAtkins_> But syntax has a habit of freezing much faster than those things.
  2647. # [22:20] <TabAtkins_> Yeah.
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  2649. # [22:21] <dglazkov> smaug____: also CSS stuff is hard to tweak with polyfills :-\
  2650. # [22:21] <smaug____> sure
  2651. # [22:21] <Domenic_> Does blink have plans to implement <style scoped> independent of shadow DOM?
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  2653. # [22:21] <TabAtkins_> It's not a priority right now, I don't think.
  2654. # [22:21] <dglazkov> there was an implementation in there, but nobody watned it
  2655. # [22:21] <Domenic_> sad
  2656. # [22:21] <smaug____> It is just that http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Feb/0036.html used rather strong and generic language
  2657. # [22:22] <smaug____> (I hadn't noticed those emails but bz mentioned in moznet#content)
  2658. # [22:22] <TabAtkins_> smaug____: Sorry for the generic language - I was addressing the CSSWG, so "API" was understood to be "CSS API".
  2659. # [22:23] <Ms2ger> CSS has APIs? :)
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  2690. # [22:44] <yoav> zcorpan: You around?
  2691. # [22:45] <zcorpan> yes
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  2693. # [22:45] <yoav> Regarding the <img src crossorigin> stuff discussed on blink-dev
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  2729. # [22:46] <yoav> I can't find a browser that complies with the spec
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  2736. # [22:48] <yoav> zcorpan: see http://jsbin.com/OnOkuQE/1
  2737. # [22:48] * Joins: webben (~benjamin@198.61.227.102)
  2738. # [22:48] <yoav> Can't find a browser where bla.gif is requested with an "origin" header
  2739. # [22:48] * Joins: fredy (~fredy@2001:648:2ffc:1225:a800:ff:fe12:113e)
  2740. # [22:49] <Hixie_> so...
  2741. # [22:49] * Joins: kochi (~kochi@2401:fa00:4:1000:26be:5ff:fe03:db82)
  2742. # [22:49] <Hixie_> did ES kill the convenience type "ArrayBufferView"?
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  2749. # [22:54] <zcorpan> yoav: quite possible yeah. also i don't see the origin header in either request in firefox, but 'crossOrigin' in new Image() returns true
  2750. # [22:54] <yoav> Hmm
  2751. # [22:55] <yoav> Firefox does fail to add "origin" on both
  2752. # [22:55] <yoav> Chrome adds it to bla2.gif, as well as IE
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  2754. # [22:55] <jcgregorio> Hixie_, annevk-cloud: per our discussion on Friday about Path/Path2D, this should work in Safari http://goo.gl/2uY5aA
  2755. # [22:55] <yoav> I'm guessing Opera would too, but I can't test it, since there's no Linux version :P
  2756. # [22:56] <Hixie_> wtf is "c.currentPath"
  2757. # [22:56] * Joins: nessy (~silviapf@101.164.144.53)
  2758. # [22:56] <Hixie_> jcgregorio: yeah, ok, i didn't realise the safari implementation had no bearing on reality
  2759. # [22:56] <Hixie_> jcgregorio: let's rename it!
  2760. # [22:57] <jcgregorio> that was a proposed attribute, it's in Webkit, and behind a flag in blink
  2761. # [22:57] <yoav> zcorpan: The point is, the part in the standard you pointed at regarding "stable state" doesn't seem to be implemented anywhere
  2762. # [22:57] <jcgregorio> reading the list it looks like it got shot down, but still
  2763. # [22:57] <jcgregorio> ended up implemented
  2764. # [22:58] <zcorpan> yoav: right
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  2766. # [22:58] <Hixie_> jcgregorio: yeah the attribute doesn't make much sense
  2767. # [22:58] <zcorpan> yoav: that's bad :-)
  2768. # [22:58] <Hixie_> jcgregorio: (hence the result on the list)
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  2770. # [22:59] <Hixie_> jcgregorio: Path objects are supposed to be just used in arguments to e.g. fill() and stroke()
  2771. # [22:59] <Hixie_> jcgregorio: changing the canvas' implied default path (or whatever i called it) is just weird
  2772. # [22:59] * jorendorff_away is now known as jorendorff
  2773. # [22:59] <jcgregorio> Hixie_: agreed, which is what I'm trying to land in Blink
  2774. # [22:59] <Hixie_> jcgregorio: cool
  2775. # [23:00] <Hixie_> jcgregorio: if you land it with a different name for Path, like Path2D or CanvasPath or whatever, i'll use whatever name you used
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  2777. # [23:00] <yoav> zcorpan: Yeah. Not sure what the next step should be. I can open a bug about it,but with it not working in all other browsers, it might be tough
  2778. # [23:01] <Domenic_> Hixie_: not sure about "killed" but http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-typedarray-objects seems relevant
  2779. # [23:01] <jcgregorio> Hixie_: ok
  2780. # [23:01] <Hixie_> Domenic_: yeah looks like the spec just dropped that name on the floor, probably didn't realise that a bunch of other specs were depending on it
  2781. # [23:01] <Hixie_> Domenic_: i'm introducing a typedef on my side to ease the transition
  2782. # [23:02] <zcorpan> yoav: indeed, it seems high risk, but still is easy to argue that the spec's behavior is better for authors
  2783. # [23:02] <Hixie_> still no idea what i can do about "ArrayBuffer implements Transferable" though
  2784. # [23:02] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  2785. # [23:02] <Hixie_> i wish the JS spec was more WebIDLy
  2786. # [23:02] <yoav> zcorpan: I agree. It's also better for srcset, not just crossorigin
  2787. # [23:02] <zcorpan> yoav: <video> already does this (presto follows the spec closely there, not sure about other engines)
  2788. # [23:02] <zcorpan> yep
  2789. # [23:03] <zcorpan> and picture too
  2790. # [23:03] <yoav> yeah
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  2793. # [23:06] <Hixie_> i wonder if JS still has the concept of a "readonly ArrayBuffer"
  2794. # [23:06] <Domenic_> frozen?
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  2796. # [23:06] <Hixie_> no frozen means all kinds of other crap
  2797. # [23:07] <Hixie_> like you can't change its properties
  2798. # [23:07] <Domenic_> indeed.
  2799. # [23:07] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  2800. # [23:07] <Domenic_> I guess I don't know what readonly means
  2801. # [23:07] <Hixie_> i basically never want frozen in my specs except for the Window and Location objects in cross-origin situations, if then
  2802. # [23:07] <Hixie_> read only means "can't mutate underlying data"
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  2804. # [23:07] <TabAtkins_> So you can still add expandos?
  2805. # [23:08] <Hixie_> sure
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  2807. # [23:09] <TabAtkins_> Yeah, that's a useful definition of it for me, for most purposes. Just that the properties the spec defines can't be altered by userland code.
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  2812. # [23:12] <Hixie_> i wonder if you can mutate teh data returned by an xhr.response
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  2814. # [23:13] <TheSeeker> Is the work at http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Adaptive_Streaming just a proposal, or is that able to be implemented immediately?
  2815. # [23:14] <Hixie_> given that it starts with "Here is a (rough and incomplete) proposal", i'm going to guess "proposal"
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  2818. # [23:18] <Hixie_> wow. http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=2794
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  2822. # [23:18] <Hixie_> it's mutable.
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  2825. # [23:25] <TheSeeker> Hixie_: I was hoping that maybe someone might have implemented some proof of concepts of the idea since 2011, I guess not? :/
  2826. # [23:25] <Hixie_> no idea
  2827. # [23:25] * Hixie_ doesn't recall seeing this page before
  2828. # [23:25] <heycam> zcorpan, annevk-cloud, so do we want to expose DOMException to workers? I guess yes, as there's nothing really DOM-ish about it, and if we have APIs that use DOMExceptions that we then want to expose to workers it would be good not to use a different exception there.
  2829. # [23:25] <Hixie_> TheSeeker: (the wiki is more a scratch space for the whatwg, we don't really work on the wiki)
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  2831. # [23:26] <Hixie_> TheSeeker: (work happens on the mailing list or in bugs, mainly)
  2832. # [23:26] <Hixie_> heycam: i throw DOMExceptions on workers, fwiw
  2833. # [23:26] <heycam> Hixie_, ok cool, will make it so
  2834. # [23:26] <zcorpan> heycam: we already have WebSocket, EventSource, XMLHttpRequest...
  2835. # [23:27] <Hixie_> zcorpan: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24454 is proving to be a pain in the ass to fix btw :-P
  2836. # [23:27] <heycam> zcorpan, since DOMException is going to be built in, I'll just make it exposed in all globals
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  2838. # [23:27] <TheSeeker> I'm trying to work out the best way to get streaming video working over Freenet ... which will require either major changes to Freenet (allowing for range-requests) or some kind of chunked video format where chunks are <= 4 MB each...
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  2840. # [23:28] * paul_irish_ is now known as paul_irish
  2841. # [23:28] <zcorpan> Hixie_: oh, does it affect everything that uses typed arrays?
  2842. # [23:28] <Hixie_> yeah
  2843. # [23:28] <Hixie_> zcorpan: i'm having to rework all the prose to use the new hooks
  2844. # [23:28] <zcorpan> ok :-|
  2845. # [23:29] <Hixie_> it had to happen eventually
  2846. # [23:29] <zcorpan> heycam: sounds good
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  2849. # [23:33] <TheSeeker> oh well, I guess I'll start lookign somewhere else, thanks anyway.
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  2851. # [23:34] <Hixie_> i've really no idea how to use these hooks
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  2854. # [23:35] <Hixie_> do they really expect the HTML spec to have lots of [[blabla]] %blabla% BlaBla(...) so on in the prose?
  2855. # [23:36] * Joins: aleray (~aleray@ip-83-101-33-125.customer.schedom-europe.net)
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  2857. # [23:38] <Hixie_> zcorpan: i'm actually going to not bother trying to call the precise hooks. if you think it needs to be more closely defined, then please file a bug saying exactly what you want the spec to say. i can't work out what to say short of making the spec full of ugly things that i'm not convinced would actually improve interop.
  2858. # [23:40] <zcorpan> Hixie_: ok i'll have a look tomorrow
  2859. # [23:40] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  2860. # [23:41] * zcorpan is a bit surprised <svg>'s content model allows stuff in any order
  2861. # [23:41] * Joins: jeremyj (~jeremyj@17.202.51.51)
  2862. # [23:43] <Hixie_> structured clone of arraybufferview
  2863. # [23:43] <Hixie_> ow
  2864. # [23:45] <Hixie_> wtf does https://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-new-dataview-argumentslist mean
  2865. # [23:46] * Quits: jeremyj (~jeremyj@17.202.51.51) (Client Quit)
  2866. # [23:46] <Domenic_> It's the standard boilerplate for saying that calling new on DataView does the normal thing, not a special thing like it does on e.g. Array
  2867. # [23:47] <Domenic_> the meat is in https://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-dataview-buffer-byteoffset-bytelength and a bit in https://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-dataview-@@create
  2868. # [23:47] <Hixie_> i'm all for making specs be well-defined and all
  2869. # [23:48] <Hixie_> but this goes beyond that and reaches a level of obscurity that i can't even dream of achieving.
  2870. # [23:48] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@a79-168-197-24.cpe.netcabo.pt)
  2871. # [23:48] <Domenic_> it does seem a bit redundant. i can't actually find any examples that are nonstandard. (Array wasn't one of them it turns out.)
  2872. # [23:49] <Domenic_> Ah, wow, Object is the exception it seems. https://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-new-object-argumentslist
  2873. # [23:50] <Hixie_> ok, open this:
  2874. # [23:50] <Hixie_> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/common-dom-interfaces.html#safe-passing-of-structured-data
  2875. # [23:50] <Hixie_> and look where it says "ArrayBufferView"
  2876. # [23:50] <Hixie_> how do i translate that to match the JS spec?
  2877. # [23:50] <Hixie_> i cannot figure it out at _all_
  2878. # [23:50] <heycam> zcorpan, for <title>?
  2879. # [23:50] * Joins: jeremyj (~jeremyj@17.202.51.51)
  2880. # [23:50] <heycam> zcorpan, it's just like in HTML where <title> can be any child of <head>, doesn't need to be the first or whatever
  2881. # [23:51] <zcorpan> heycam: yeah i for some reason expected the descriptive elements to have to come first
  2882. # [23:51] <zcorpan> heycam: well html separates <head> stuff from <body> stuff
  2883. # [23:52] <heycam> zcorpan, oh you know SVG Tiny 1.2 has more strict author requirements about the position of <title>/<desc>
  2884. # [23:52] <heycam> it's not in SVG 2 though (yet? maybe should port some of that wording across)
  2885. # [23:52] <Domenic_> Hixie_: https://bugs.ecmascript.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2495 FWIW
  2886. # [23:53] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.114.216.128)
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  2888. # [23:53] <Hixie_> Domenic_: it's not that it's repeated that i find confusing, btw. it's that it's utterly impenetrable.
  2889. # [23:53] <Hixie_> Domenic_: i've literally no idea what that means
  2890. # [23:53] <Domenic_> oh, well, i'm guessing that's just a matter of ES spec familiarity
  2891. # [23:54] <Domenic_> I would translate it this way:
  2892. # [23:54] <Hixie_> there's spec familiarity, and then there's the %foo% @@foo [[foo]] Foo() stuff that they use instead of English
  2893. # [23:54] <Hixie_> Domenic_: do you have any idea how to translate the above HTML spec prose into JS-compatible prose?
  2894. # [23:54] <hober> as a rule of thumb, if Hixie_ doesn't understand your spec prose after multiple reads, your spec is wrong. :)
  2895. # [23:54] * danielfilho_ is now known as danielfilho
  2896. # [23:54] <hober> sorry, "prose"
  2897. # [23:55] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141)
  2898. # [23:55] <Hixie_> i dunno about wrong, but i could certainly get behind "overly obtuse"
  2899. # [23:55] <hober> s/wrong/bad/ then
  2900. # [23:56] <zcorpan> heycam: now you made me try to read svg tiny 1.2's relaxng schema :-P
  2901. # [23:56] <heycam> zcorpan, sorry
  2902. # [23:56] <heycam> zcorpan, it may or may not describe the requirements reflected in the prose, who knows :)
  2903. # [23:57] <zcorpan> heycam: i didn't find it in prose so i guessed maybe it just has its content model requirements in the schema
  2904. # [23:57] <Domenic_> Hixie_: I see the rough outlines of how to do this. But getting the appropriate references right will take some time. I will work on it later tonight.
  2905. # [23:57] <heycam> zcorpan, yeah it might be where I'm remembering it from
  2906. # [23:57] <zcorpan> heycam: anyway i think any order seems better
  2907. # [23:57] <Hixie_> Domenic_: don't worry about it, it'll become moot when JS takes over defining this stuff
  2908. # [23:57] <heycam> zcorpan, ok
  2909. # [23:57] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@179.43.133.2) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  2910. # Session Close: Tue Feb 04 00:00:01 2014

The end :)