/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-02-04 / end

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1. # Session Start: Tue Feb 04 00:00:01 2014
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:00] <Domenic_> Hixie_: wait, I think it's as simple as: "Let _output_ be %TypedArray%(_input_)"
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5. # [00:00] <Domenic_> Using https://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-%typedarray%-typedarray
6. # [00:00] <zcorpan> i sometimes don't understand Hixie_'s spec prose after multiple reads, too. but i think that has more to do with the relevant thing being complex than with the way it is written
7. # [00:01] <hober> zcorpan: right
8. # [00:01] <Domenic_> You could change the predicate to "If _input_ has a [[TypedArrayName]] internal slot" as well.
9. # [00:01] <Hixie_> Domenic_: the underlying buffer is changed by this (to a new buffer that's in the algorithm's "memory")
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11. # [00:01] <Hixie_> Domenic_: i think [[DataView]] is the internal property you're supposed to look for
12. # [00:02] <Domenic_> Hixie_: I think that matches; %TypedArray% re-allocates a new buffer for its return value
13. # [00:02] <heycam> "W3C DOM4"
14. # [00:02] <Hixie_> Domenic_: i don't want it to allocate a new buffer, i need it to use the buffer that was cloned from the original one
15. # [00:02] <Domenic_> Hixie_: I would bet they come together. The %TypedArray% algorithm does a predicate assert for [[TypedArrayName]] though.
16. # [00:02] <Domenic_> ahhh
17. # [00:03] <Domenic_> wow where is that captured in the HTML spec?
18. # [00:03] <annevk-cloud> Hixie_: there are a bunch of IDL bugs open on integrating with ArrayBuffer and friends, I recommend waiting for that
19. # [00:04] <Hixie_> Domenic_: it's the result of calling the algorithm recursively
20. # [00:04] <annevk-cloud> SimonSapin: patches welcome
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22. # [00:04] <annevk-cloud> heycam: yes to workers :)
23. # [00:05] <SimonSapin> annevk-cloud: Some of it is opinions rather than clear bugs
24. # [00:05] <Hixie_> Domenic_: (if you're cloning the ArrayBuffer, then it'll be cloned and put in the /memory/ variable before you get to this algorithm)
25. # [00:05] <Domenic_> Hixie_: which clause gets entered on the recursion? I don't know what the IDL attributes of ArrayBufferViews are
26. # [00:05] <Hixie_> Domenic_:
27. # [00:05] <Hixie_> er
28. # [00:05] <Hixie_> Domenic_: "buffer", primarily
29. # [00:05] <annevk-cloud> SimonSapin: I agree with some, eg immutable, but not clear how to do it simply
30. # [00:05] <SimonSapin> annevk-cloud: btw, https://github.com/SimonSapin/rust-url/blob/master/parser.rs now passes your tests, with functional-style code rather than a state machine
31. # [00:06] <Domenic_> So "If input is an ArrayBuffer object"?
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33. # [00:06] <Hixie_> Domenic_: no, it gets as far as step 1, then returns
34. # [00:06] <Hixie_> Domenic_: because the buffer is in /memory/
35. # [00:06] <SimonSapin> though I found some issues (meaning we need more tests :))
36. # [00:06] <Hixie_> Domenic_: the mapping of old buffer to new buffer, that is
37. # [00:07] <Hixie_> Domenic_: (it's cloned as part of creating the "transfer map" in the postMessage() methods)
38. # [00:07] <Domenic_> hmm
39. # [00:07] <annevk-cloud> SimonSapin: cool
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43. # [00:10] <zcorpan> heycam: i think document.title should be strict about using an svg:title child of the root when the root is svg:svg
44. # [00:11] <heycam> zcorpan, yes I agree. what's the alternative though?
45. # [00:11] <zcorpan> heycam: alternatives include ignoring the root and return the first html:title or svg:title in the document, for instance
46. # [00:12] <heycam> zcorpan, ok. but yes selecting the first svg:title child of the root sounds like the right thing to me.
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48. # [00:13] <zcorpan> same on setting, and appending a title to the root if there isn't a title
49. # [00:14] <heycam> yeah
50. # [00:14] <zcorpan> and here i started to wonder about <svg>'s content model :-)
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52. # [00:14] <Domenic_> for comic relief http://stackoverflow.com/questions/21405066/is-this-an-ie11-radio-button-rendering-bug-they-look-like-googly-eyes
53. # [00:15] <zcorpan> optical illusion, heh
54. # [00:16] <annevk-cloud> Structured clone proposal Dimitry and I wrote was accepted by TC39 last week btw I saw somewhere
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56. # [00:16] <annevk-cloud> So at some point that too should be somebody else their problem
57. # [00:17] <Hixie_> well, it'll still be my problem for a lot of it, i assume
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59. # [00:17] <Hixie_> i mean, i doubt they're going to actually spec how postMessage() works, for example
60. # [00:17] <annevk-cloud> You get hooks
61. # [00:17] <Hixie_> i hope they're better hooks than i get for ArrayBuffer
62. # [00:18] <annevk-cloud> They are similar in need, no?
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64. # [00:18] <Hixie_> the hooks for ArrayBuffer are incomprehensible
65. # [00:19] <annevk-cloud> You are hacking around something ES does not define but ES engines have
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67. # [00:19] <annevk-cloud> It has no hooks for the host environment afaict
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69. # [00:20] <annevk-cloud> Anyway, I recommend postponing those issues for a bit
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71. # [00:21] <Hixie_> btw what's the status on the event loop hooks?
72. # [00:21] <Hixie_> i still haven't heard anything from anyone about that
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74. # [00:22] <Hixie_> which you'd think i'd hear about, since right now i'm the guy speccing the event loop
75. # [00:22] <Domenic_> https://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-enqueuetask
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79. # [00:23] <Domenic_> I think the idea was to do a minimal amount of work and leave most of that in your capable hands still
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81. # [00:24] <Domenic_> https://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-nexttask-result-algorithm-step is probably the most likely to step on your toes, but seems sufficiently small and vague as to not do so that badly
82. # [00:24] <zcorpan> Hixie_: maybe you can take inspiration from microsoft and close spec bugs claiming optical illusion
83. # [00:25] <Hixie_> zcorpan: i believe the w3c already uses that kind of approach, so i'll let them be in charge of that
84. # [00:25] <Hixie_> Domenic_: so should i be invoking this stuff somewhere?
85. # [00:25] <Domenic_> allen has so many typos... -_-
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89. # [00:26] <Hixie_> seems like EnqueueTask() should invoke a callback on my side so i can add an HTML-spec "task" to an HTML-spec "task queue" to do something useful
90. # [00:27] <Domenic_> I think the intent is to let the "implementation defined" stuff give control back over to your more-fleshed-out event loop
91. # [00:27] <Domenic_> e.g. "If all Task Queues are empty, the result is implementation defined."
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93. # [00:27] <annevk-cloud> Note that ES task === HTML microtask
94. # [00:27] <annevk-cloud> :/
95. # [00:27] <Domenic_> I am trying to find how you get *in* to this system though
96. # [00:27] <Domenic_> yeah that was unnecessarily confusing annevk-cloud
97. # [00:27] <Hixie_> for some definition of "==="
98. # [00:28] <Domenic_> in earlier drafts he showed me it said microtask
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100. # [00:28] <annevk-cloud> Hixie_: 😀
101. # [00:29] <zcorpan> does the ES event loop know about 'stable state'?
102. # [00:29] <Domenic_> Ah this is how you get in. "When there is no running execution context and the execution context stack is empty, the ECMAScript implementation removes the first PendingTask from a Task Queue and uses the information contained in it to create an execution context and starts execution of associated Task abstraction operation."
103. # [00:29] <Domenic_> interestingly that sounds related to "stable state"?
104. # [00:31] <Domenic_> so e.g. that prose sentence will launch you into something like PromiseReactionTask. Which will then call NextTask when it's done with its stuff. Which when there are no more ES microtasks, will have an implementation-defined result. Which is where things can go back to HTML's control
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108. # [00:34] <Domenic_> I think it would be more friendly if instead of that prose sentence there was some kind of Drain(Micro)TaskQueue operation you could call
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113. # [00:42] <Hixie_> Domenic_: k well... i'll await a bug or e-mail requesting integration with a proposal for how to do it, i guess :-)
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185. # [02:35] <falken> Hixie_: Regarding https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20418, I thought the idea was to change non-modals to not be centered, not clipped, not in the initial containing block... and just be regular boxes. Which is different than what was spec'd before.
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189. # [02:42] <aleray> is it possible to achieve this: http://dpaste.com/1584387/
190. # [02:42] <aleray> ?
191. # [02:42] <aleray> (moving the id attribute up)
192. # [02:48] <TabAtkins_> aleray: ...yes, it is possible, through any number of means. What are you trying to do? Did you mean to ask that question in this room?
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195. # [02:57] <aleray> TabAtkins_, oups sorry
196. # [02:58] <aleray> I meant using html5lib python
197. # [02:58] <aleray> (or lxml since I'm using that too)
198. # [02:59] <TabAtkins_> Oh, yeah. Just remove the id from the first element, move up with .getparent(), and add it back.
199. # [02:59] <aleray> TabAtkins_, perfect
200. # [02:59] <TabAtkins_> LXML is horribly documented. I sympathize.
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208. # [03:13] <aleray> something like this? line 11 http://dpaste.com/1584436/
209. # [03:13] <aleray> TabAtkins_,
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211. # [03:14] <TabAtkins_> That looks approximately right.
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221. # [03:36] <aleray> TabAtkins_, nice
222. # [03:37] <aleray> can I make this code agnostic to the lib I use? ex using dom instead of lxml?
223. # [03:38] <JosephSilber> TabAtkins_: Is it possible to have a flexbox with align items strech, while still extending beyond the container if needed?
224. # [03:39] <JosephSilber> TabAtkins_: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/21515042/scrolling-a-flexbox-with-overflowing-content/21541021
225. # [03:39] <TabAtkins_> aleray: Dunno if there's a DOM library on top of lxml. I wrote some custom stuff for myself that's DOM-like because lxml is crap.
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228. # [03:41] <aleray> TabAtkins_, thanks. Time to sleep, I'll dive into it tommorow
229. # [03:41] <aleray> thanks for helping
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231. # [03:42] <TabAtkins_> JosephSilber: Yes, just do the normal thing you would do with overflowing and such.
232. # [03:42] <TabAtkins_> It works exactly normally.
233. # [03:42] <JosephSilber> TabAtkins_: It doesn't http://codepen.io/anon/pen/Enjqg
234. # [03:43] <JosephSilber> Oops. Wrong link. Here: http://codepen.io/anon/pen/qFbKg
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237. # [03:44] <JosephSilber> See the borders there? They don't extend beyond the container's size
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239. # [03:45] <TabAtkins_> JosephSilber: Ah, indeed. Sorry, I was looking at a smaller testcase where the flex item itself overflowed, rather than its contents.
240. # [03:46] <TabAtkins_> I don't *think* there's a way to solve that, but I'll have to look later. Gotta head home now.
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246. # [03:56] <TabAtkins_> JosephSilber: Okay, looked into it more.
247. # [03:57] <TabAtkins_> JosephSilber: You're right that it won't work by default.
248. # [03:57] <TabAtkins_> To make it work, you'll need a min-height: min-content; declaration, from <http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-sizing/>, which I don't think is supported anywhere yet.
249. # [03:57] <JosephSilber> :(
250. # [03:58] <JosephSilber> thanks though
251. # [03:58] <TabAtkins_> Such is life in today's paucity of sizing controls.
252. # [03:59] <TabAtkins_> Alternately, setting align-self:flex-start and height:fill-available should probably work (but again, no support).
253. # [03:59] <JosephSilber> No support for fill-available?
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255. # [04:00] <JosephSilber> TabAtkins_: There is a way to hack it, if the container has a set height. I can remove the display: flex from the container, then nest another element inside. Make *that* the flex container, and give it a min-height: 100%
256. # [04:01] <TabAtkins_> Right, fill-available is also from Sizing, and also unsupported iirc.
257. # [04:01] <TabAtkins_> Interesting hack.
258. # [04:01] <JosephSilber> But the layout I'm dealing with needs the container to be fluid height :(
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263. # [04:06] <TabAtkins> JosephSilber: Then yeah, you're screwed until we get more sizing controls.
264. # [04:06] <JosephSilber> TabAtkins: seems there is some support: http://caniuse.com/#feat=intrinsic-width
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269. # [04:11] <TabAtkins> Yup yup, but at least in Chrome, it's only supported for 'width'/etc *I think*.
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271. # [04:11] <JosephSilber> TabAtkins: Well, it kinda works here: http://codepen.io/anon/pen/qFbKg
272. # [04:12] <JosephSilber> Just can't figure out why it forces scrollbars, even though I set box-sizing to border-box
273. # [04:12] <TabAtkins> Not in Chrome, as far as I can tell.
274. # [04:12] <JosephSilber> Interesting. I'm looking at it in Chrome.
275. # [04:13] <TabAtkins> Hm. Oh, that pen isn't showing any use of the keywords at all.
276. # [04:13] <JosephSilber> Hadn't saved. Here you go again: http://codepen.io/anon/pen/qFbKg
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279. # [04:24] <TabAtkins> That fill-available behavior is a bug. Mind reporting it?
280. # [04:26] <JosephSilber> TabAtkins: Yep. I'll build an isolated case.
281. # [04:27] <TabAtkins> If you swap around and use min-height:min-content instead, it works: http://codepen.io/anon/pen/dIlho
282. # [04:27] <TabAtkins> Unfortunately you have to remove the box-sizing declaration. The behavior of box-sizing in my example is terrible, but not technically a bug, since that's what the spec actually mandates.
283. # [04:27] <TabAtkins> I'll have to fix that tomorrow.
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285. # [04:29] <JosephSilber> min-height:min-content does fix it, but I don't understand why.
286. # [04:29] <TabAtkins> stretch tries to set it to the flexbox's height, unless it's too tall explicitly. Setting min-height:min-content makes it as tall as its contents, so it triggers the "too tall" behavior.
287. # [04:29] <JosephSilber> By default it should anyhow be expanding to it's content's height
288. # [04:29] <TabAtkins> Nope, that's not how stretch works.
289. # [04:30] <JosephSilber> So steretch doesn't care about the element's intrinsic height
290. # [04:30] <TabAtkins> It does. An element's contents don't contribute to its intrinsic height.
291. # [04:31] <TabAtkins> "intrinsic height" being a technical term with a specific definition in CSS.
292. # [04:31] <JosephSilber> oh. ok. thanks a million. will play with it.
293. # [04:31] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
294. # [04:32] <TabAtkins> No problem! Glad to find out that we did indeed fix 'height'/etc and make the keywords work on those properties.
295. # [04:32] <TabAtkins> Now I just need to get that spec out the door so we can unprefix.
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298. # [04:34] <JosephSilber> I can't reproduce that m fill-available bug
299. # [04:35] <TabAtkins> I'll try to reduce it later.
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304. # [04:52] <JosephSilber> TabAtkins: using min-height: min-content only stretches the ones whose content are actually taller, but it doesn't affect their siblings. Any flex item whose content doesn't extend beyong the parent's height will still be cut off there: http://codepen.io/anon/pen/ehLFl
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312. # [05:09] <TabAtkins> JosephSilber: Hm, you're right. Try inserting another container around the columns, and make *that* a flexbox with min-height:min-content.
313. # [05:09] <TabAtkins> Then the columns should all stretch to the maximum height, I think.
314. # [05:10] <TabAtkins> Unfortunately you can't just put those properties on .content, because .content has to host the scrollbar.
315. # [05:10] <TabAtkins> (In the middle of making dinner, or I'd be trying this out myself.)
316. # [05:10] <JosephSilber> TabAtkins: sorry for bothering you. will try
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320. # [05:20] <JosephSilber> That does the trick
321. # [05:21] <JosephSilber> I just hate haviong to nest so many containers
322. # [05:22] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I know. :/
323. # [05:22] <TabAtkins> Grid will help remove most of them.
324. # [05:22] <JosephSilber> That's still some way out
325. # [05:23] <TabAtkins> Not too far out. Chrome's gonna try to ship it early-ish this year. As soon as I take the spec to CR, which I plan to do Real Soon Now®.
326. # [05:24] <JosephSilber> That's great news.
327. # [05:24] <JosephSilber> How compatible would that be with what IE has today?
328. # [05:25] <TabAtkins> Very close.
329. # [05:25] <TabAtkins> I think property names changed a lot, like Flexbox, but that's it.
330. # [05:25] <TabAtkins> And we added the template syntax, but that's not required to use Grid, just very helpful.
331. # [05:25] <JosephSilber> TabAtkins: autoprefixer should be able to handle that just fine
332. # [05:25] <TabAtkins> Yup.
333. # [05:26] <JosephSilber> TabAtkins: I love you. Irally adore you. You've brought the most useful stuff to the web in a long time.
334. # [05:26] <JosephSilber> Thanks
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336. # [05:27] <TabAtkins> Welcome. ^_^
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350. # [05:54] <JosephSilber> <TabAtkins> JosephSilber: Hm, you're right. Try inserting another container around the columns, and make *that* a flexbox with min-height:min-content.
351. # [05:54] <JosephSilber> Turns out, that *doesn't* work :(
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353. # [05:55] <JosephSilber> It removes the stretching from the columns.
354. # [05:56] <JosephSilber> nvm.
355. # [05:56] <JosephSilber> I keep on jumping between the pen and my real project, but I keep on running into issues in my real project.
356. # [05:56] <JosephSilber> Hopefully I'll work it out
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533. # [11:35] <yoav> zcorpan: PhillipJ beat me to it :)
534. # [11:35] <zcorpan> heh
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537. # [11:51] <annevk> zcorpan: can the stable state stuff even work?
538. # [11:52] <annevk> zcorpan: iirc there's pages depending on img.src = x; if(img.width == 400) to work
539. # [11:52] <annevk> zcorpan: combined with the document image map of course
540. # [11:52] <zcorpan> annevk: the spec supports that. it's loaded immediately if the image is in cache
541. # [11:52] <annevk> zcorpan: I see
542. # [11:53] <annevk> What's up with the new Twitter?
543. # [11:53] <yoav> annevk: Wouldn't such pages be racy even with immediate download?
544. # [11:53] <annevk> yoav: ideally normally you'd queue a task before you update attributes
545. # [11:54] <annevk> zcorpan: some aspects of that you might want to fix for <picture> btw
546. # [11:54] <annevk> zcorpan: <img> being so broken is one of the main reasons lazyload is proposed
547. # [11:56] <zcorpan> annevk: what would you want changed?
548. # [11:57] <annevk> zcorpan: I think I'd prefer the whole thing to queue a task and then do the fetch
549. # [11:57] <annevk> zcorpan: and not have the document image cache lookup
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551. # [11:57] <annevk> zcorpan: sorry, do have that lookup, but don't have it be sync
552. # [11:58] <zcorpan> annevk: how can it not be sync if pages depend on it?
553. # [11:58] <annevk> zcorpan: you can't change it for <img>
554. # [11:59] <zcorpan> lunch
555. # [11:59] <yoav> annevk: Do you have an example of such a page? I find it odd that pages would rely on width and get away with it, even today
556. # [11:59] <annevk> see topic
557. # [12:01] <yoav> annevk: The "sense of logic" part? :)
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559. # [12:03] <yoav> All I'm saying is that I doubt there's lots of contents relying on it, since it's likely to fail to work today, at least when the image is not in cache
560. # [12:04] <annevk> they rely on the special image cache to be there, that's the whole reason the special image cache is defined
561. # [12:05] <annevk> well, expected perf is another I suppose
562. # [12:05] <annevk> I don't really have any example pages though
563. # [12:05] <annevk> I'm sure you can find some crawling through browser bugs
564. # [12:07] <yoav> OK
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579. # [12:43] <annevk> SimonSapin: is your parser complete?
580. # [12:43] <annevk> SimonSapin: I like it
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584. # [13:11] <zcorpan> annevk: picture uses img so it can't not use the image cache
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586. # [13:13] <SimonSapin> annevk: I think some corner cases with file: are wrong
587. # [13:14] <SimonSapin> but yeah, should be mostly complete
588. # [13:14] <Ms2ger> SimonSapin, wouldn't the while i < input.len() { loops look better with iterators?
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596. # [13:42] <annevk> zcorpan: what do you mean uses img?
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598. # [13:43] <zcorpan> annevk: it's the <img> element that runs the selection algorithm
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602. # [13:51] <annevk> zcorpan: hmm, is there a spec for picture?
603. # [13:52] <zcorpan> http://picture.responsiveimages.org/
604. # [13:53] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: the thing is, I often want i to outlive the loop
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606. # [13:55] <annevk> Are we really putting CSS syntax into HTML attributes zcorpan?
607. # [13:55] <annevk> I guess we did it for media queries...
608. # [13:55] <zcorpan> for some value of css syntax
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610. # [13:57] <annevk> Well now you can use CSS escapes to define the URL
611. # [13:58] <SimonSapin> the CSS Syntax spec deliberately makes the tokenizer available separately
612. # [13:58] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, r? https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/645
613. # [13:58] <annevk> The original srcset did not have that
614. # [13:58] <annevk> SimonSapin: that's very generous
615. # [13:58] <zcorpan> annevk: hmm. not sure that's intentional. TabAtkins?
616. # [13:59] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: i'll get to it :-)
617. # [13:59] <Ms2ger> Thanks!
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629. # [14:21] <MikeSmith> hmm Samsung intending to implement context menus in blink
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635. # [14:47] <darobin> annevk: hey, do you know if Encoding has a test suite?
636. # [14:47] <annevk> no, just adhoc stuff
637. # [14:48] <darobin> ok, thanks
638. # [14:53] <darobin> annevk: do you have that stuff somewhere? I wonder if I could find someone foolish enough to take a stab at this one
639. # [14:53] <darobin> and even ad hoc stuff can help bootstrap
640. # [14:54] <annevk> darobin: oh, I actually did write a test for single-byte encodings
641. # [14:54] <annevk> darobin: http://dump.testsuite.org/encoding/
642. # [14:54] <darobin> annevk: cool, ta!
643. # [14:55] <annevk> darobin: I have a bunch more scattered locally and some old hard drive that's online somewhere, but it's probably easier to start from scratch for those
644. # [14:55] <darobin> those single byte tests even look pretty sane
645. # [14:55] <annevk> Yeah, I forgot about those
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647. # [14:56] <darobin> thanks, that's useful
648. # [14:56] <darobin> I reckon the TS could be bootstrapped with just a port of this to testharness.hs
649. # [14:56] <darobin> *js
650. # [14:56] <gsnedders> You really just want to write a testharness.hs to generate the testharness.js
651. # [14:57] * darobin whacks gsnedders behind the ears
652. # [14:57] <gsnedders> Deep inside, you know you really want to be using Haskell.
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654. # [14:59] <annevk> darobin: note that some of that might be out of date a bit
655. # [14:59] <annevk> darobin: haven't kept it up to date with changes to the spec
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659. # [15:01] <darobin> annevk: an out of date starting place is better than nothing at all
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661. # [15:01] <darobin> gsnedders: no, at jgraham's behest I only code in Coq
662. # [15:02] <gsnedders> darobin: But then you can at least programmatically extract Haskell from your theorems!
663. # [15:03] * jorendorff_away is now known as jorendorff
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665. # [15:07] <darobin> gsnedders: I don't often programmatically extract from my theorems, but when I do, it's in Haskell
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670. # [15:14] <annevk> what's all this Haskell love
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674. # [15:17] <jgraham> Haskell :: p -> ♡ p
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680. # [15:25] <gsnedders> annevk-cloud: Dude, I worked on Carakan post-release. Of course I'm a Haskell fanboy.
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684. # [15:37] * zcorpan notices hsivonen.iki.fi is now hsivonen.fi
685. # [15:38] <zcorpan> hsivonen: /test is gone?
686. # [15:39] <zcorpan> oh needs trailing slash
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689. # [15:49] <zcorpan> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24485 is why ping="" would be nice
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691. # [15:50] <smaug____> dglazkov: so what is the plan with shipping shadow dom?
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693. # [15:50] <smaug____> I hope we'll get it a bit more stable and spec reviewed before anyone ships it
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696. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> smaug____: there as an intent message on blink-dev yesterday
697. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> intent to ship I guess
698. # [15:52] <smaug____> that is why I ask
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700. # [15:53] <smaug____> what does that mean in practice
701. # [15:53] <smaug____> like when
702. # [15:53] <smaug____> and how major changes they are ok to still make
703. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> I assume Chrome 34 but maybe it's later
704. # [15:54] <smaug____> need to be more careful with this kind of major change comparing to some smaller APIs
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706. # [15:56] <MikeSmith> smaug____: you could post a reply to blink-dev
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709. # [15:57] * smaug____ wonders if that requires use of a google account
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713. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> no
714. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> I don't think
715. # [15:59] <MikeSmith> it's just a mailing list with a really horrible Web UI dropped on top of it
716. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> ah shit maybe you actually do need a google account
717. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> as far as subscribing
718. # [16:01] * Parts: Osmose1000 (Osmose1000@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:feae:1aeb) ("Leaving...")
719. # [16:01] * MikeSmith checks the message headers for a subscribe thingey
720. # [16:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan: good catch. Try /test/
721. # [16:01] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yeah that worked
722. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> smaug____: http://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/group/blink-dev/subscribe
723. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> smaug____: blink-dev+subscribe@chromium.org
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727. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> smaug____: anyway as far as I can tell you can actually subscribe to it using any arbitrary e-mail address you want. They just go out of their way to make it a massive PITA to do it
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729. # [16:23] <jgraham> Everyone uses google, right?
730. # [16:26] <annevk-cloud> I subscribe using an email address that does not have a Google Account
731. # [16:26] <smaug____> MikeSmith: I think I managed to subscribe using my spam-email account
732. # [16:27] <annevk-cloud> smaug____: I suspect you need to give some detailed feedback though
733. # [16:28] <annevk-cloud> I wonder if they ended up special casing Text nodes
734. # [16:28] <smaug____> annevk-cloud: yeah, that is the problem. Would need to have time to review the stuff again
735. # [16:28] <smaug____> but I'm actually mostly wondering why they think the spec is stable enough
736. # [16:29] <annevk-cloud> Seems like a fair question
737. # [16:29] <annevk-cloud> Also, I recommend making time :)
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739. # [16:35] <foolip> annevk-cloud: sorry about that, see your inbox :/
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766. # [18:05] <yoav> annevk-cloud: Regarding what we discussed earlier - I see Gecko returning width when the image is cached, but not Chrome
767. # [18:05] <yoav> http://jsbin.com/OdOqiSO/2
768. # [18:06] <yoav> And even in Gecko it (rightfully) breaks when the page is refreshed (F5, not even ctrl+F5)
769. # [18:07] <yoav> So it seems like a very fragile thing for authors to count on
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790. # [18:34] <annevk-cloud> yoav: interesting, maybe things can be made better
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799. # Session Close: Tue Feb 04 18:49:29 2014
800. #
801. # Session Start: Tue Feb 04 18:49:29 2014
802. # Session Ident: #whatwg
803. # [18:49] * Disconnected
804. # [18:50] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
805. # [18:50] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
806. # [18:50] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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855. # [20:07] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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858. # [20:17] <zcorpan> "identical elements are replace with a 'use' element; " ;_; http://libregraphicsworld.org/blog/entry/svg-cleaner-0-6
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897. # [21:26] <zcorpan> yoav: what does http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2795 log for you?
898. # [21:27] <yoav> log: 0
899. # [21:27] <yoav> rendering mode: CSS1Compat
900. # [21:27] <yoav> document has no title
901. # [21:27] <yoav> log: 195
902. # [21:28] <zcorpan> that means it makes the width available immediately when the image is cached
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905. # [21:34] <yoav> zcorpan: If I understand correctly, the second log, that shows the width, is printed after onload,so after the image was loaded (regardless of caching)
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907. # [21:35] <zcorpan> yoav: in window.onload, test() is run again which creates a new <img> and logs its width
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909. # [21:35] <yoav> Right
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912. # [21:35] <zcorpan> yoav: so at that point the image it points to will be in the cache, because a different <img> loaded it earlier
913. # [21:36] <zcorpan> yoav: if caching was disabled completely, both would log 0
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915. # [21:36] <yoav> Yeah, I get your point
916. # [21:38] <yoav> So, does that mean that the stable state stuff cannot work?
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918. # [21:46] <yoav> zcorpan: Or must be simulated, rather than implemented as is?
919. # [21:47] <zcorpan> yoav: the stable state stuff is about waiting to fetch an image that is *not* in the cache
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921. # [21:47] <zcorpan> yoav: the spec requires images that are in the cache to be available immediately
922. # [21:48] <zcorpan> yoav: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-1.html#update-the-image-data step 7 substep 3
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924. # [21:49] <zcorpan> yoav: "A user agent that obtains images immediately must also synchronously update the image data of an img element whenever that element has its src, srcset, or crossorigin attribute set, changed, or removed." #the-img-element
925. # [21:51] <yoav> zcorpan: Need to dig up and see how this translates to code...
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939. # [22:09] <zcorpan> yoav: btw i found https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=466586 when searching for bugs in this area. not sure what the bug is there exactly but it seems the page in question expects .width to be available
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942. # [22:10] <yoav> zcorpan: Basically, it seems like we'd need to split/duplicate ImageLoader::updateFromElement and create an updateFromElementIfCached or something of that sort
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950. # [22:12] <zcorpan> yoav: i'm not familiar with the code so i'm not sure what that means :-) maybe foolip does
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954. # [22:14] <yoav> zcorpan: :) Basically I'm looking for ways to split out the "image is already cached" case, so that all other algos will be activated on stable state
955. # [22:14] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
956. # [22:14] <zcorpan> yoav: ok
957. # [22:15] <yoav> The alternative is to start loading the image, and cancel it if something changes, which gets complicated once we have src, srcset,crossorigin and picture to take into consideration
958. # [22:15] <zcorpan> yeah we don't want to do that
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961. # [22:16] <zcorpan> at least if "start loading" means we can hit the network before we decide to cancel
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968. # [22:18] <yoav> zcorpan: Oh, definitely. But even if it doesn't hit the network, it can get really complicated to juggle all that
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970. # [22:18] <zcorpan> yeah
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974. # [22:21] <zcorpan> i wonder if it's a good idea to make the sync cache thing unaware of srcset/picture, if that makes the implementation simpler
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977. # [22:24] <yoav> zcorpan: for srcset, it shouldn't matter much
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979. # [22:25] <yoav> for picture, maybe. I need to think about it
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1025. # [23:29] * sicking_ is now known as sicking
1026. # [23:30] <sicking> Hixie: why navigator.getLanguages() rather than navigator.languages?
1027. # [23:30] <Hixie> what would navigator.languages return?
1028. # [23:30] <sicking> A frozen Array of string values
1029. # [23:30] <sicking> the frozen is part is still being debated
1030. # [23:31] <sicking> but we'll only remove it if it's what authors actually think is more JSy
1031. # [23:31] <Hixie> a new one each time?
1032. # [23:31] <sicking> no, same Array until the contents changes
1033. # [23:31] <Domenic_> can the languages change?
1034. # [23:31] <sicking> see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23682
1035. # [23:31] <Domenic_> ah right hte compromise
1036. # [23:31] <sicking> this is use-case B
1037. # [23:32] <sicking> Domenic_: heycam should be drafting you and a few others an email about whether to freeze or not
1038. # [23:32] <heycam> yeah
1039. # [23:32] <heycam> will do that this week
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1041. # [23:32] <Domenic_> cool. excited that people are hammering this out.
1042. # [23:32] <sicking> Domenic_: it seems like freezing is the closest thing we have to the desired behavior that we have. Though I know freezing is frowned upon by a lot of people
1043. # [23:32] <Hixie> sicking: returning a frozen anything seems like a bad idea since it means you can't use it like a normal object (even Node can have expandos, e.g.). returning an Array seems like a bad idea since it means that n.languages !== n.languages sometimes.
1044. # [23:33] <sicking> Hixie: no, n.languages === n.languages will always return true. It only changes value from a task
1045. # [23:33] <Domenic_> sicking: I think freezing works really well. I will be sure to give it some thought though when that email comes around.
1046. # [23:33] <Hixie> sicking: n.languages !== oldnlanguages
1047. # [23:34] <sicking> Hixie: sure, Node.nodeValue !== oldNodeValue too sometimes
1048. # [23:34] <sicking> Hixie: Same thing with Element.innerHTML
1049. # [23:34] <Hixie> sicking: those don't return objects.
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1051. # [23:34] <sicking> Hixie: so?
1052. # [23:34] <sicking> Hixie: Node.firstChild !== oldNodeFirstChild
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1054. # [23:36] <Hixie> sicking: sure but if you change the first child back, then it goes back to its old value
1055. # [23:36] <Hixie> sicking: it doesn't start returning a new object with the same value as the old old object
1056. # [23:36] <sicking> Hixie: true, but if you create a new Node with the same contents then that's not the case
1057. # [23:36] <Hixie> sicking: it's just bad API design to return a non-live array from a property, imho. Causes all kinds of weird behaviour.
1058. # [23:36] <Hixie> especially a non-live mutable array.
1059. # [23:36] <sicking> Hixie: like?
1060. # [23:37] <sicking> Hixie: As an implementor, I'm more interested in following concentions used elsewhere. I'm happy to wait until we've established a recommended syntax in WebIDL though. But if so, please remove getLanguages() in the meantime
1061. # [23:38] <Hixie> is there any other API anywhere where we return an array?
1062. # [23:38] <Hixie> hm, i guess there are some
1063. # [23:38] <Hixie> oh but those are live and readonly
1064. # [23:39] <sicking> See the use-cases in the bug
1065. # [23:39] <Domenic_> live and readonly arrays do not exist
1066. # [23:39] <sicking> live is generally hated by everyone
1067. # [23:39] <sicking> it's generally not something i'm willing to implement for anything new
1068. # [23:40] <Hixie> i agree
1069. # [23:40] <Hixie> i'm just saying if they're _not_ live then we shouldn't return them from an attribute
1070. # [23:40] <Hixie> it's just wacked
1071. # [23:40] <sicking> Hixie: you appear to be in minority in that opinion
1072. # [23:40] <Hixie> e.g. it forces the UA to remember what it last returned
1073. # [23:41] <sicking> yup, we've already added that ability into our WebIDL code
1074. # [23:41] <Hixie> we chaned a bunch of APIs specifically to avoid doing this, i'm kinda surprised this is even controversial
1075. # [23:41] <sicking> with a specific hook for throwing away that cache
1076. # [23:41] <Hixie> changed
1077. # [23:41] <sicking> Hixie: which APIs were changed? from what to what?
1078. # [23:42] <Hixie> e.g. this is why PropertyNodeList has .getValues() rather than .values
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1080. # [23:43] <sicking> where is that used?
1081. # [23:43] <sicking> is this in the microdata API?
1082. # [23:43] <Hixie> yeah
1083. # [23:43] <sicking> ah
1084. # [23:44] <sicking> i don't know that api well enough to comment
1085. # [23:44] <sicking> Generally I think property vs. function should be a choise based on what the specific thing is/does. Not what type it returns
1086. # [23:46] <Hixie> to answer your earlier question, the problems are things like setting an expando on the array, and then it being there until magically one day it isn't because the user happened to tweak the settings
1087. # [23:46] <Hixie> or getting the length of the array, and iterating over it in a timeout loop, and half-way-through it changes length
1088. # [23:46] <sicking> Hixie: if it's frozen that won't happen
1089. # [23:46] <Hixie> being frozen is even worse
1090. # [23:46] <Hixie> since then you can't even _set_ expandos
1091. # [23:47] <Hixie> which is unlike everything on the Web
1092. # [23:47] <sicking> not being able to set them seems like a good thing if you can't reliably get them
1093. # [23:47] <Hixie> a method gives you a much clearer affordance that what you're getting is a new array
1094. # [23:47] <Hixie> then you can set them and get them and it all works
1095. # [23:47] <Hixie> i honestly am quite baffled by wanting a non-method here
1096. # [23:47] <sicking> i'm not going to get into the frozen vs. non-frozen debate though. I'll leave that to people with more JS experience than me
1097. # [23:47] <Hixie> why would you want a property to return a (non-live) array?
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1099. # [23:48] <sicking> it seems like a property of the navigator. Not a function of it
1100. # [23:48] <sicking> Hixie: would you have made navigator.language a function too?
1101. # [23:48] <Hixie> can you think of any attribute that returns a non-live array where suddenly the attribute returns a new array?
1102. # [23:48] <Hixie> no, that returns a primitive value
1103. # [23:49] <sicking> Hixie: right, like I said, i think property vs. function should not be a decision based on return-type
1104. # [23:49] <sicking> that answers the why
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1106. # [23:49] <sicking> but i agree it's an opinion
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1108. # [23:50] <Hixie> i'm just trying to be consistent with the platform here
1109. # [23:50] <sicking> i think the property way will be more consistent with where things are heading
1110. # [23:50] <Hixie> (my _opinion_ is that all of this sucks either way :-) )
1111. # [23:50] <Hixie> things shouldn't be heading to something different than they already are
1112. # [23:50] <Hixie> because then we'll have an even more multiple-personality platform
1113. # [23:50] <Hixie> it's the Web's biggest failing as a platform
1114. # [23:51] <Hixie> that every API is idosyncratic in its own way
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1116. # [23:51] <sicking> this is the old "stick with old suckyness and be consistent vs. create something better even though it breaks with old" debate
1117. # [23:51] <sicking> generally i come down on the "create something better" side
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1119. # [23:51] <sicking> but it's a judgement call
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1121. # [23:52] <sicking> however I'll note that we get a lot of complaints that "the DOM" isn't very consistent with other JS APIs
1122. # [23:52] <Hixie> i'm very strongly on the "be consistent" side, because if it's inconsistent, it isn't better regardless.
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1124. # [23:52] <Hixie> yes, our APIs being inconsistent is what i'm saying
1125. # [23:53] <Hixie> anyway. i don't want to be the one to first introduce an attribute that returns a non-live same-object array
1126. # [23:53] <Hixie> imho that's a mistake, and one we've intentionally avoided before
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1129. # Session Close: Wed Feb 05 00:00:00 2014

The end :)