/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-02-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Feb 17 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  42. # [03:39] <MikeSmith> https://twitter.com/sebmarkbage/status/435113501447573504 "I guess I'm curious if W3C specs are really efficiently policing diverging user level paradigms and even if it is. Is that important?"
  43. # [03:40] <MikeSmith> I wonder what "efficiently policing diverging user level paradigms" means
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  47. # [03:48] <nessy> SamB: that's all good then :-)
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  132. # [09:40] <zcorpan> annevk-cloud: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/2014Feb/0048.html shouldn't sendBeacon send a Referer?
  133. # [09:41] <zcorpan> annevk-cloud: "API referrer source" is different depending on global env
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  220. # [14:23] <MikeSmith> weird, I get https://raw.github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/master/spec/service_worker/index.html as text/plain in desktop but rendered HTML on mobile
  221. # [14:24] * jorendorff_away is now known as jorendorff
  222. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> hmm maybe because it redirects to https on desktop but not on mobile
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  224. # [14:34] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: try https://rawgithub.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/master/spec/service_worker/index.html
  225. # [14:34] <zcorpan> (don't know why the other url wouldn't be text/plain on mobile though)
  226. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  227. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> thanks
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  236. # [14:50] <zcorpan> https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/800 seems like a good example of "test is testing what it thinks it is testing"
  237. # [14:51] <jgraham> *isn't?
  238. # [14:52] <zcorpan> or maybe "The test fails when it's supposed to fail"
  239. # [14:52] <zcorpan> i mean they fail at it
  240. # [14:52] <zcorpan> http://testthewebforward.org/docs/review-checklist.html
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  242. # [14:54] <jgraham> Yeah, I think I know what you mean :) But I think your original sentence needed an extra negative somewhere to be clear
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  253. # [15:11] <zcorpan> what is our story for manual tests? https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/803
  254. # [15:12] <gsnedders> "Cry."
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  256. # [15:15] <jgraham> Yep, the tears of gsnedders are like holy water to a vampire. Just a few drops on a manual test and it will fizz and dissolve into the æther.
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  258. # [15:16] <jgraham> But actually the policy is to name them -manual and hope that in the future we can convert them to WebDriver tests
  259. # [15:16] <wilhelm> Deleting them sounds wrong, unless those features are tested automatically elsewhere.
  260. # [15:17] * jorendorff is now known as jorendorff_away
  261. # [15:17] <jgraham> Yeah. I'm not sure if those specific tests are good tests, but it needs someone to decide that rather than just deleting them all
  262. # [15:17] <jgraham> (maybe foolip already did, I don't know)
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  282. # Session Close: Mon Feb 17 15:53:55 2014
  283. #
  284. # Session Start: Mon Feb 17 15:53:55 2014
  285. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  287. # [15:59] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  288. # [15:59] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  289. # [15:59] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  290. # [15:59] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
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  292. # [16:05] <foolip> jgraham: most of the ones I removed say things like "passes if the audio is playing without sound heard" which can't be automated with any existing framework
  293. # [16:05] <foolip> but I'll close the review/PR anyway, since my assumption that manual tests should be nuked was wrong
  294. # [16:08] <jgraham> foolip: OK, thanks
  295. # [16:08] <jgraham> foolip: A PR to add -manual to the names of manual tests would be much appreciated
  296. # [16:09] <foolip> jgraham: will that now
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  300. # [16:15] <foolip> jgraham: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/646
  301. # [16:19] <foolip> zcorpan: about https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/showcomment?chain=2370 do you think it would be useful to have an obsolete.html or some such to collect tests for non-support of various features?
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  303. # [16:20] <zcorpan> foolip: yeah. i think dom testsuite has a file called historical.html
  304. # [16:21] <foolip> zcorpan: ok, I'll start one of those for media then
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  307. # [16:24] <foolip> zcorpan: whatwg.org/html#embedded-content-0 indicates to me that the -0 in html/semantics/embedded-content-0/ is not really useful
  308. # [16:25] <zcorpan> it should be http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-1.html#embedded-content-1
  309. # [16:25] <zcorpan> but with a stable id
  310. # [16:26] <Ms2ger> FileAPI has historical.html too
  311. # [16:26] <foolip> how could it be stable given that the -n is generated by anolis?
  312. # [16:26] <foolip> zcorpan: you mean ask hixie to make it stable?
  313. # [16:26] <zcorpan> foolip: yeah
  314. # [16:27] <zcorpan> Hixie: would you WONTFIX a bug asking you to set id="" to all sections in the spec, three levels deep?
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  316. # [16:28] <foolip> zcorpan: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24694
  317. # [16:28] <zcorpan> Hixie: web-platform-tests uses section id as basis for the directory structure so it's a problem that they are not stable
  318. # [16:32] <gsnedders> Pretty certain Hixie claims that that's no more of a problem than the fact that the tests become invalid because of oter spec changes
  319. # [16:33] <jgraham> Well
  320. # [16:33] <jgraham> It sort of is
  321. # [16:34] <foolip> given that these are scoped to directories, couldn't we just not include the -0 in the name?
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  324. # [16:43] <foolip> zcorpan: historical.html for <video auto=muted> in https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/801
  325. # [16:45] <zcorpan> reviewed
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  330. # [16:49] <zcorpan> foolip: how do you mean not include the -0?
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  333. # [16:50] <foolip> zcorpan: I mean simply name the directory html/semantics/embedded-content/
  334. # [16:51] <foolip> but I guess let's see what Hixie says first
  335. # [16:51] <zcorpan> foolip: how would you know which section in the spec the tests map to?
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  337. # [16:52] <Ms2ger> It has been claimed that the exact mapping to spec IDs is important
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  339. # [16:53] <zcorpan> i thought the main reason to have this structure is to annotate the spec with links to the tests
  340. # [16:58] <foolip> ok, if there are scripts that rely on the IDs then I suppose there's no shortcuts
  341. # [17:00] <jgraham> At the very least darobin has a script that gets you the test directory given (something). Which I think probably relies on the ID
  342. # [17:01] <darobin> yeah, it's somewhere in the tools
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  344. # [17:02] <jgraham> Of course no one else can run it because node ;)
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  351. # [17:11] <Hixie> having spec links in tests imho is a bad idea, because specs test many things, so one link isn't going to help. also, that link will get stale, so it just causes unnecessary churn.
  352. # [17:11] <Hixie> but that's separate from the issue of stable IDs
  353. # [17:11] <Hixie> if there's a particular heading that needs a stable heading ID, file a bug
  354. # [17:11] <Hixie> i won't do it to all headings, but i will to specific ones
  355. # [17:12] <Hixie> in other news, it's come to my attention that chaals is mailing people privately telling them to post to public-html instead of whatwg.
  356. # [17:12] <Hixie> stay classy chaals.
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  358. # [17:19] <foolip> Hixie: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24694 is a specific one that would make me happy
  359. # [17:19] <Hixie> noted
  360. # [17:23] <zcorpan> Hixie: tests can have multiple spec links
  361. # [17:23] <Hixie> how many of them point to the "in body" parser insertion mode, the "navigate" section, the "html" element section, etc?
  362. # [17:26] <jgraham> Hixie: I think there is a certain extent to which the perfect is the enemy of the good here
  363. # [17:26] <zcorpan> Hixie: it's not useful to link to everything that a test happens to rely on, but it can be useful to point to things that a test is intended to be testing
  364. # [17:26] <jgraham> Although I am generally opposed to metadata, saying that a test [oh zcorpan just said it]
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  367. # [17:29] <Hixie> in my experience, tests usually find bugs you're not intending to find.
  368. # [17:30] <zcorpan> so?
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  370. # [17:30] <Hixie> *shrug*
  371. # [17:31] <Hixie> i find the link to be bad because it misleads people into thinking the section is relevant
  372. # [17:31] <Hixie> rather than having them try to find the section from first principles, which avoids them making the same mistake as the test writer
  373. # [17:31] <Hixie> but whatever
  374. # [17:31] <Hixie> you do as you like :-)
  375. # [17:33] * zcorpan gotta go
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  377. # [17:35] <jgraham> I think having a rough mapping of tests to spec sections is pretty useful to get a coarse view of which tests are *expected* to exercise a particular part of the spec, to find obvious gaps in the coverage, and to find tests that are likely invalid if a section undergoes a major rewrite or is removed. They are not useful as a tool for debugging a failing test
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  380. # [17:37] <gsnedders> Though as opjsunit shows, we did end up with a testSiteRegressions_0.js file :)
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  394. # [17:50] <foolip> jgraham: can you finish https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/801 so that I merge before sleep?
  395. # [17:51] <jgraham> foolip: Done. I assume you want to squash and merge?
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  397. # [17:53] <foolip> jgraham: of course
  398. # [17:54] <foolip> jgraham: you can do https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/812 too if you like, or leave it to zcorpan :)
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  405. # [18:01] <jgraham> foolip: I might leave that to zcorpan if you don't mind
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  551. # [22:39] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#overview-of-the-parsing-model vs http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/parsing.html#overview-of-the-parsing-model
  552. # [22:39] <Hixie> in chrome i get a different object entirely in the floating object...
  553. # [22:39] <Hixie> wtf
  554. # [22:39] <Hixie> the markup is identical
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  578. # [23:23] <scott_gonzalez> smaug____: I talked to the jQuery team and the only case we know of for sync XHR is beforeunload.
  579. # [23:24] <scott_gonzalez> smaug____: Devs tend to use it for form validation as well, but that should really be handled async with event.preventDefault() in a submit event handler.
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  587. # [23:35] <smaug____> scott_gonzalez: right
  588. # [23:35] <smaug____> scott_gonzalez: gecko now warns about sync xhr except when used in beforeunload/unload/pagehide event listeners
  589. # [23:35] <scott_gonzalez> That sounds reasonable.
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  591. # [23:36] <scott_gonzalez> I guess you'll start warning in those once beacon lands?
  592. # [23:36] <smaug____> right
  593. # [23:36] <smaug____> hmm, did beacon land
  594. # [23:37] <smaug____> didn't
  595. # [23:37] <smaug____> ah, some test fixes still needed
  596. # [23:37] * smaug____ needs to also ask sicking about the stability of beacon
  597. # [23:38] <smaug____> scott_gonzalez: do you think jQuery could actually disable sync XHR at some point
  598. # [23:38] <scott_gonzalez> In some magical future, yes.
  599. # [23:39] <scott_gonzalez> I've already convinced the team to deprecate $.ajax in favor of separate APIs for each type of transport.
  600. # [23:39] <scott_gonzalez> So there would be $.xhr() and it would only support async XHR.
  601. # [23:39] <scott_gonzalez> The question is whether we can get to a point where we ship jQuery without $.ajax().
  602. # [23:40] <scott_gonzalez> Here's my proposal if you're interested: http://bugs.jquery.com/ticket/14509
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  607. # [23:59] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  608. # Session Close: Tue Feb 18 00:00:00 2014

The end :)