/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-02-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Feb 25 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <aklein> Hixie: ah, just loaded, sounds like adopting
  4. # [00:00] <Hixie> i used the hook anne gave, which is triggered on adoption, but after insertion if the adoption happened with insertion. or at least, it will eventually be after, but right now it's before. or something.
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  6. # [00:02] <aklein> hehe
  7. # [00:02] <aklein> ok
  8. # [00:02] <aklein> it would be pretty strange for adoption to happen after insertion, imho
  9. # [00:02] <Hixie> no i mean the hook is called after insertion
  10. # [00:02] <aklein> because then you don't have the invariant that everything in a document has the same ownerDocument
  11. # [00:02] <Hixie> the adpotion obviously happens before
  12. # [00:02] <aklein> ahh
  13. # [00:02] <Hixie> :-)
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  15. # [00:03] <aklein> I guess I'll have to keep my eye out for that moving around, as it'll make WebKit and Blink incompatible with the spec...
  16. # [00:04] <Hixie> supposedly that change is needed for web components
  17. # [00:04] <Hixie> but i don't know the details (except what's in the bug)
  18. # [00:05] <aklein> huh, even more mysterious
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  22. # [00:09] <Hixie> any recent IE users around able to tell me what the log is in: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=2840 perchance?
  23. # [00:09] <Hixie> (make sure to wait the 6 seconds)
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  30. # [00:16] <Hixie> nevermind, that test is busted
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  36. # [00:26] <Hixie> heh, a google search for [meta name blogID] gets a lot of broken pages
  37. # [00:28] <Hixie> TabAtkins, tantek: do you know if anyone supports http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-ui/#nav-index ?
  38. # [00:29] <tantek> Hixie, not AFAIK. Hence at risk.
  39. # [00:29] <Hixie> k
  40. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Presto Opera might have, I dunno. Maybe some TVs, as they've implemented some of the nav-* stuff, but maybe only the directional ones.
  41. # [00:29] <tantek> Hixie, I could be convinced to actually drop it from the next "published draft"
  42. # [00:29] <tantek> TabAtkins - only directional
  43. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Ok, cool.
  44. # [00:29] <Hixie> i'm trying to figure out what i should be editing, or getting edited, to make sequential tab order work in the new focus world, in particular wrt skipping inertness
  45. # [00:30] <Hixie> i'm game to just speccing it in HTML if you think that's best
  46. # [00:30] <tantek> Hixie, I have mixed feelings
  47. # [00:30] <Hixie> or alternatively i can file a bug on css or something
  48. # [00:30] <gsnedders> Relatively certain ZombiePresto supports it, at for TVs.
  49. # [00:30] <tantek> Hixie - this is the nav-index issue: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-ui#issue-25
  50. # [00:32] <Hixie> tantek: well we need to spec somewhere that you can tab through viewports, scroll regions, multiple focusable regions e.g. in <video> control UIs, elements with tabindex="", input controls etc, but not e.g. links (by default) on mac, and not elements that are inert
  51. # [00:32] <tantek> Hixie, I'm collecting stuff to "fix" nav-index here: wiki.csswg.org/spec/css4-ui#nav-properties
  52. # [00:32] <tantek> I don't have strong feelings about where it goes
  53. # [00:32] <Hixie> (and not elements that have the tabindex focus flag but had tabindex=-1)
  54. # [00:32] <tantek> but if you want to add more "asks" e.g. what you wrote ^^^ I'm ok with that too
  55. # [00:33] <tantek> like I said, mixed / not strong feelings about it. if you have strong feelings about it let me know.
  56. # [00:33] <Hixie> my only strong feeling is i want it specced, sooner rather than later if possible
  57. # [00:33] <Hixie> happy to go either way on this
  58. # [00:34] <Hixie> so if your ETA is next 6 months, i can just give you a brain dump. if it's > 6 months, maybe best for me just to spec it, and then i can rip it out when you get a round tuit.
  59. # [00:34] <Hixie> either way is fine by me
  60. # [00:34] <Hixie> so long as we have a plan :-)
  61. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> a round tuit?
  62. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> around to it?
  63. # [00:35] <Hixie> TabAtkins: https://www.google.com/search?q=round+tuit :-)
  64. # [00:36] <Hixie> even better link: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/round_tuit
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  66. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> Ah, I see.
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  68. # [00:38] <Hixie> tantek: (related: there's been feature requests for tabindex scoping in HTML; presumably we should decide if it belongs in HTML or CSS)
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  74. # [00:44] <aleray> hi, any advices for this questions? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/21993725/wrap-implicit-section-of-an-html-document-into-section-tags-using-lxml-etree
  75. # [00:44] <aleray> my mind is foamy today and I can't think of a solution to handle subheading nesting.
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  78. # [00:45] <Hixie> tantek: so... should i go ahead and spec something in HTML?
  79. # [00:45] <tantek> hixie, bbiab - in meeting
  80. # [00:45] <Hixie> tantek: ah, ok. ttyiab!
  81. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> aleray: I don't see the problem. Search over the document for top-level sections, collecting elements into an array and then moving them into a <section> when it's closed. Then iterate over the <section>'s contents in the same way.
  82. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> That'll give you nested sections.
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  84. # [00:50] <aleray> TabAtkins, interesting thanks
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  88. # [01:01] <aleray> TabAtkins, sorry I'm affraid I'm a little bit stuck here
  89. # [01:02] <aleray> could you help me drafting the algorithm?
  90. # [01:03] <aleray> i'm back with http://dpaste.com/1655272/
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  92. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> Not really; I don't code against vanilla lxml if I can help it, because the API is terrible.
  93. # [01:06] <aleray> TabAtkins, what would you use instead?
  94. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> My custom DOM-like API on top of it, and tears when I have to use it directly. ^_^
  95. # [01:07] <aleray> on top of what? lxml.etree?
  96. # [01:07] <aleray> or something else?
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  99. # [01:09] <TabAtkins> What I'm suggesting is that you make your algorithm able to take a sequence of elements (like all the children of <body>), and find the subset of them that belong to a given implicit section. Use that to wrap them into a <section>, then re-run it on the children of the <section>.
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  101. # [01:11] <aleray> TabAtkins, ok I give another try
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  103. # [01:15] <TabAtkins> (I assume that you're running this against a relatively "flat" document, where all the headings are siblings. More complicated structures can't be automatically wrapped in <section>s, because the outline algorithm doesn't necessary correspond to a reasonable nesting structure.)
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  123. # [01:41] <aleray> TabAtkins, I have this now: http://dpaste.com/1655376/
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  129. # [01:48] <tantek> Hixie, I'm back
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  132. # [01:50] * tantek is scrolling backwards
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  136. # [01:56] <tantek> Hixie, ok I'm collecting your questions as issues with proposed answers.
  137. # [01:56] <tantek> re: there's been feature requests for tabindex scoping in HTML - URLs?
  138. # [01:57] <Hixie> well really my question is what's your roadmap. are we talking 2 weeks? 2 months? 2 years?
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  140. # [01:58] <tantek> it's not a high enough priority for me to put on an explicit roadmap - hence the request for URLs to the requests
  141. # [01:58] <tantek> regardless, I'm collecting questions/ thoughts / issues here: http://wiki.csswg.org/ideas/nav-index
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  143. # [01:59] <Hixie> k. what i propose to do then is spec up what html needs just so we can define the status quo, probably this week or so, and then whenever is convenient for you, if you conclude that it should all be defined in CSS instead, just let me know and we can rip it out of HTML then
  144. # [02:00] <Hixie> i don't have any real questions / thoughts / issues other than what i mentioned above -- just a matter of speccing the status quo, for now, and in the future, that issue of the scoping thing.
  145. # [02:01] <Hixie> (this only became relevant recently because i just revamped how focus is specced, so there's a lot of loose ends now that i'd like to tie up sooner rather than later)
  146. # [02:01] <tantek> Hixie we have to define the status quo of tabindex *anyway*
  147. # [02:01] <tantek> so nothing should block you from doing that
  148. # [02:01] <Hixie> well the only part of tabindex that isn't specced is the sequential navigation algorithm at this point
  149. # [02:01] <tantek> I'm happy to wait to see what you do there before doing anything further with nav-indesx
  150. # [02:01] <Hixie> which presumably is the same algorithm that would take into accound nav-index
  151. # [02:01] <Hixie> roger
  152. # [02:02] <tantek> well there's the absence of spec, and then there's the issues that have been reported
  153. # [02:02] <Hixie> are there issues other than the above? i looked at the urls you pasted but they didn't have much in the way of anything else
  154. # [02:02] <Hixie> at least, not that i saw
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  158. # [02:05] <tantek> Hixie, these were enough of a pain that I gave up for now: http://wiki.csswg.org/ideas/nav-index#external-issues-to-be-incorporated
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  160. # [02:05] <tantek> if you want to tackle all those, be my guest
  161. # [02:05] <Hixie> that seems to boil down to "status quo" + "scoping"
  162. # [02:05] <tantek> if you could at least drop in a few URLs to your resolutions to that wiki page that would be great. or ping me here and I'll edit the page - either way I do want to shadow this work
  163. # [02:06] <Hixie> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24719 and https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23960 are the two things on my radar (status quo and scoping respectively)
  164. # [02:07] <Hixie> not planning on doing the scoping thing soon
  165. # [02:07] <Hixie> so the only decision is "should we match the status quo" which i'm answering "yes" to. :-)
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  168. # [02:10] <tantek> Hixie, that's an excellent start and scoping of work ;)
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  170. # [02:13] <tantek> and thanks for the URLs, incorporated as references: http://wiki.csswg.org/ideas/nav-index#within-a-dialog-and-browsing-context
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  172. # [02:16] <a-ja> Hixie: haven't looked in a while...anyone doing focus on <summary> correctly yet?
  173. # [02:16] <Hixie> define "correctly"? :-)
  174. # [02:16] <a-ja> and <summary> containing a link
  175. # [02:16] <Hixie> not sure.
  176. # [02:16] <Hixie> gotta go, though. bbl.
  177. # [02:18] <aleray> TabAtkins, I'm getting there it seems, but I'm having troubles with recursion: http://dpaste.com/1655487/
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  197. # [02:50] <aleray> TabAtkins, kind of there, seems to make the deal: http://dpaste.com/1655573/
  198. # [02:50] <aleray> thanks a lot for helping out$
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  327. # [08:31] <Ms2ger> Anybody with a corpus want to grep for -moz-grid?
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  357. # [09:49] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: why do css specs have the "default stylesheet" thing still? isn't that a waste of time given html's rendering section?
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  389. # [11:18] <JakeA> Hixie: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/edits.html should embeded content be part of the edits page?
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  391. # [11:22] <zcorpan> JakeA: i think the splits are a bit arbitrary, based on Philip`_'s size of the scrollbar thumb of each page when he implemented the splitter a few years ago, plus a few tweaks since
  392. # [11:23] <JakeA> Ahh ok, gotcha. Didn't realise it was automated like that
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  399. # [11:45] <Ms2ger> karlcow, :)
  400. # [11:46] <zcorpan> JakeA: it's always possible to tweak the splits if they're suboptimal, though i'm not sure who maintains it now
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  407. # [12:09] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, does anybody spec things like UIEvent.layerX?
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  411. # [12:10] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: don't see it in dom3events or uievents
  412. # [12:10] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: what does it do?
  413. # [12:10] <Ms2ger> No idea, I noticed it in IDL that Servo copied from Gecko
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  418. # [12:37] <zcorpan> i sense that goto fail; is the new meme
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  420. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> heh
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  427. # [13:00] <JakeA> The DOMContentLoaded event bubbles, anyone know why?
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  438. # [13:17] <zcorpan> JakeA: probably because that's what gecko (or whoever was first) implemented
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  442. # [13:24] <JakeA> zcorpan: oh yeah, it does bubble window, didn't realise that
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  475. # [14:05] <ondras> so, who is the Custom Elements guru here?
  476. # [14:05] <ondras> why is there the "is" attribute for custom elements that use the "extends" clause?
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  530. # [16:08] <JakeA> Been playing around with the idea of pseudo-classes to hide content that hasn't fully parsed/loaded https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qUAI7BGEAMYh6aNq3NGW2BlI6hNhg4_tKLhL_VsiRqU/edit
  531. # [16:08] <JakeA> Hoping it'll be an alternative to html imports render-blocking by default
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  534. # [16:13] <bblfish> hi, I just posted a mail on keygen, if anyone has any questions on it
  535. # [16:13] <Ms2ger> "RDF 1.1 is a W3C Recommendation"
  536. # [16:13] <Ms2ger> WHAT YEAR IS IT?!
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  538. # [16:17] <bblfish> well application/pkix-cert does not seem to work on Chrome for the returned X509 certificate
  539. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> bblfish: saw your message but haven't read it yet. I think you'll have a serious uphill battle trying to convince people we should use keygen for anything new
  540. # [16:19] <bblfish> keygen works very well
  541. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> ok I guess I'll just wish you luck then
  542. # [16:20] <bblfish> And Client Side Certificates can be very useful for helping us leave the space of centralised services https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/WebID/raw-file/tip/spec/index.html
  543. # [16:20] <bblfish> It's just not widely known how to use them to avoid CAs
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  545. # [16:23] <bblfish> anyway, all that's missing in the spec is the specification of the mime type application/x-x509-user-cert since I did not find that in IANA, and that seems to be used in each browser
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  566. # [17:30] <jernoble|laptop> ericc: g'morning!
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  599. # [18:48] <jcgregorio> good morning dglazkov !
  600. # [18:48] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  601. # [18:48] <dglazkov> whoa
  602. # [18:48] * jcgregorio \0/
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  604. # [18:51] <Hixie> if i do a bing search for [hixie tests adhoc html frames iframes], the first hit is:
  605. # [18:51] <Hixie> HTML Frames: absolute parent.frames['top'].location.href
  606. # [18:51] <Hixie> www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/frames/004.html
  607. # [18:51] <Hixie> pass.
  608. # [18:51] <Hixie> as far as i can tell, http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/frames/iframes/004.html doesn't contain the word "pass"
  609. # [18:51] <Hixie> so where the heck are they getting the word "pass" from???
  610. # [18:53] <jgraham> if (site.host == "hixie.ch" && site.path.indexOf("/tests/") > -1) {site.summary = "pass"}, perhaps?
  611. # [18:55] * Joins: charl_ (~charl@524A9047.cm-4-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  612. # [18:55] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  613. # [18:56] <jgraham> Hixie: (those are different URLs FWIW)
  614. # [18:56] <Hixie> oh hey, so they are
  615. # [18:56] <Hixie> how did i miss that those urls were different
  616. # [18:57] * Quits: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@46-239-239-203.tal.is) (Quit: barnabywalters)
  617. # [18:57] * Ms2ger gives Hixie a cup of coffee
  618. # [18:58] * jgraham doesn't think that will help
  619. # [18:58] <mathiasbynens> should `element.id = null` result in `id="null"` or remove the `id` attribute? Safari removes, Chrome and Firefox set "null" as the attribute value
  620. # [18:58] * Joins: jaydeepw (7aa9491c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.122.169.73.28)
  621. # [18:58] <jgraham> (he will jsut give it back to you)
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  623. # [18:59] <mathiasbynens> did this change recently?
  624. # [18:59] <mathiasbynens> data:text/html,<p id=x></p><script>var el = x; el.id = null; console.log(el.outerHTML)</script>
  625. # [19:00] <Hixie> mathiasbynens: looks to me like it should set it to "null".
  626. # [19:00] <Hixie> per spec, anyway
  627. # [19:00] <Hixie> null coerces to "null" in WebIDL
  628. # [19:00] <Hixie> .id is defined as reflecting
  629. # [19:00] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  630. # [19:00] <Hixie> and reflecting is defined as follows: On setting, set an attribute for the context object using the name of the attribute and the given value
  631. # [19:01] <mathiasbynens> thanks for confirming
  632. # [19:01] * mathiasbynens files WebKit bug
  633. # [19:01] <Ms2ger> "MikeSmith: You don't need to do anything! I need to get off my ass and do something."
  634. # [19:02] * ojan_away is now known as ojan
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  646. # [19:09] <MikeSmith> haha wilhelm actually scribed that
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  662. # [19:19] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Possibly, yeah.
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  666. # [19:24] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: have you or the CSS WG overall considered putting "Don't use this" warnings on CSS TR drafts?
  667. # [19:24] * jorendorff is now known as jorendorff_away
  668. # [19:24] <TabAtkins> Yes we have, but I haven't cared enough to overcome the inertia against making changes like that.
  669. # [19:25] <MikeSmith> I ask because I just noticed an implementor somebody in the WebDriver f2f citing TR versions of CSSOM and CSSOM View
  670. # [19:25] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: ok
  671. # [19:25] <MikeSmith> yeah I figured that was why
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  674. # [19:26] <SimonSapin> FWIW, https://github.com/mozilla/servo/wiki/Relevant-spec-links may be useful outside of Servo
  675. # [19:26] <Ms2ger> Inertia at the CSSWG?
  676. # [19:26] * Quits: SteveF (~chatzilla@cpc3-nmal20-2-0-cust916.19-2.cable.virginm.net) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 27.0.1/20140212131424])
  677. # [19:26] <Ms2ger> Who'd have thought
  678. # [19:26] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: inertia for for making changes to anything on /TR
  679. # [19:26] <TabAtkins> It's almost like we're a mature W3C group, and filled with a decent number of people who are scared of living standards.
  680. # [19:27] <MikeSmith> SimonSapin: btw for some reason I thought you were co-editing CSSOM
  681. # [19:27] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Specifically, making *negative-sounding* changes to anything on /TR.
  682. # [19:27] <Ms2ger> Heh, mature
  683. # [19:27] * Quits: jeffreyatw (~jeffreyat@66-194-1-26.STATIC.twtelecom.net) (Quit: jeffreyatw)
  684. # [19:27] <MikeSmith> I like how you put the implied scare quotes around the word mature there
  685. # [19:28] <SimonSapin> MikeSmith: I’m not, though I did make an edit once after zcorpan’s +1
  686. # [19:28] <TabAtkins> "Mature" meaning "crotchety", in my case.
  687. # [19:30] <MikeSmith> SimonSapin: you editing something though I thought
  688. # [19:30] * Quits: reyre (~reyre@out-on-131.wireless.telus.com) (Read error: No route to host)
  689. # [19:30] <SimonSapin> Syntax ?
  690. # [19:30] <MikeSmith> ah yeah that
  691. # [19:30] * jorendorff_away is now known as jorendorff
  692. # [19:31] <SimonSapin> and Paged Media, though not really since I left Kozea
  693. # [19:31] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  694. # [19:31] * Quits: darfia (~darfia@201.82.243.68) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  695. # [19:32] <MikeSmith> OK
  696. # [19:32] * Joins: reyre (~reyre@out-on-131.wireless.telus.com)
  697. # [19:32] <Domenic_> SimonSapin: that servo page is amazing.
  698. # [19:32] <MikeSmith> man I need HTML Imports and friends so that I can create a Fugly Warning component and easilty add it to tons of documents in TR
  699. # [19:33] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Those people are just the ones who need to see that real downstream users of CSS are having to route around the damage the WG is causing
  700. # [19:34] <MikeSmith> maybe we should just get the IP ranges for all browser vendors and just block all those from access to /TR
  701. # [19:34] <TabAtkins> jgraham: It's been stated. Some of them *cough*Bert*cough* don't care.
  702. # [19:34] <jgraham> So those people should be ignored
  703. # [19:34] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: That would be a pretty wonderful idea.
  704. # [19:34] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, sounds difficult for Mozilla
  705. # [19:34] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Yeah, so let's go back to the "mature W3C group" part, and how it's hard to deal with politics.
  706. # [19:35] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, why not block access to TR for everyone except Sofia-Antipolis?
  707. # [19:35] <jgraham> Well if their response is "fuck you" it's not politics, it's childishness
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  709. # [19:35] * Joins: lerc (~quassel@121-74-1-14.telstraclear.net)
  710. # [19:35] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  711. # [19:35] <TabAtkins> But hey, they're employees.
  712. # [19:35] <Ms2ger> And we're back to my scare quotes
  713. # [19:35] <jgraham> Why not just take down TR and then tell anyone who complains to get over themselves
  714. # [19:36] <MikeSmith> I added fugly to the WebDriver spec at least, just now http://www.w3.org/TR/webdriver/
  715. # [19:36] * Joins: jeffreyatw (~jeffreyat@66-194-1-26.STATIC.twtelecom.net)
  716. # [19:36] <TabAtkins> There's the ongoing effort (that's getting close to completion, I think?) to make /TR show the ED if the editors opt into it.
  717. # [19:36] <Ms2ger> Har har har
  718. # [19:37] <MikeSmith> it's nice to have some WGs where I can just do stuff without anybody complaining
  719. # [19:38] <MikeSmith> like the WebDriver WG aka Browser Tools and Testing
  720. # [19:38] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Opt-in sounds awful. It just makes the problem inconsistent so that people don't learn there's an issue and then trip up
  721. # [19:38] * Joins: darfia (~darfia@201.82.243.68)
  722. # [19:38] <MikeSmith> because everybody in that WG is basically sane and focused on actually working on stuff
  723. # [19:39] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, I guess it must be an "immature" group
  724. # [19:39] * jgraham disputes "sane"
  725. # [19:39] <TabAtkins> On the other hand, it's a good way to sneak that shit in without people blowing up, and then once it's established, you can make it mandatory.
  726. # [19:39] <Ms2ger> jgraham, well, let's just ignore AutomatedTester :)
  727. # [19:40] <TabAtkins> Like we did with making groups public. Optional, but gradually nearly everyone become open. I think maybe all groups are open now? (Or maybe there's still a few a11y cobwebs that are closed.)
  728. # [19:41] * jorendorff is now known as jorendorff_away
  729. # [19:41] <jgraham> Making groups open didn't really have any potential for hidden traps though
  730. # [19:41] <jgraham> Either a group was open or it was closed
  731. # [19:41] <MikeSmith> CSS WG needs a crazy staff contact who people are afraid of, afraid to cross. who just does the right thing and then goes on vacation and nobody can figure out how to unwind the stuff he did (like add a Fugly Component to all CSS WG TRs in some obfuscated way)
  732. # [19:42] <MikeSmith> hmm I have a feature request for dglazkov
  733. # [19:42] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Be our father figure, please?
  734. # [19:42] <TabAtkins> Or dglazkov, yeah.
  735. # [19:42] <TabAtkins> I'm too chummy to do it.
  736. # [19:42] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, Bert?
  737. # [19:42] <TabAtkins> You forgot "does the right thing"
  738. # [19:43] <MikeSmith> no comment
  739. # [19:43] <Ms2ger> Maybe he thinks he does the right thing?
  740. # [19:43] <MikeSmith> I'm not here
  741. # [19:43] <TabAtkins> Oh, he definitely *thinks* he does.
  742. # [19:43] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, rather I moved the conversation to #testing?
  743. # [19:43] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no)
  744. # [19:44] <MikeSmith> I'm only here to get dglazkov to spec my mechanism for Secret HTML Imports for adding components to documents in such a way that when you go on vacation nobody else can figure out how to remove them
  745. # [19:44] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: we're going through a open bug list here
  746. # [19:45] <Ms2ger> Hack into apache
  747. # [19:45] <MikeSmith> which is like listening to nails on the chalkboard
  748. # [19:45] <Ms2ger> Or better
  749. # [19:45] <Ms2ger> Install wptserve on w3.org and pass everything except TR/css-* requests to apache
  750. # [19:45] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@guest.schibsted.no)
  751. # [19:46] <MikeSmith> that'd be good
  752. # [19:46] <MikeSmith> good way for us to test how wptserve works under load at least
  753. # [19:47] <ondras> 14:08 < ondras> so, who is the Custom Elements guru here?
  754. # [19:47] <ondras> 14:08 < ondras> why is there the "is" attribute for custom elements that use the "extends" clause?
  755. # [19:48] <jgraham> MikeSmith: "works"
  756. # [19:48] <MikeSmith> heh
  757. # [19:49] <MikeSmith> ondras: you need to get some attention from dglazkov
  758. # [19:50] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@guest.schibsted.no) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  759. # [19:51] <ondras> MikeSmith: ok thanks
  760. # [19:51] <ondras> dglazkov: ? :)
  761. # [19:52] <ondras> dglazkov: why <button is="my-button"> instead of just <my-button>? is there some advantage in the former?
  762. # [19:53] <Ms2ger> Fallback
  763. # [19:53] <Ms2ger> Accessibility
  764. # [19:53] <Ms2ger> Semantics
  765. # [19:54] <ondras> I do not see any of those. :-)
  766. # [19:54] <ondras> <my-button> is also available, right?
  767. # [19:54] <Ms2ger> Maybe
  768. # [19:54] <ondras> why shall I prefer the "is" version then?
  769. # [19:54] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@sjfw1.adobe.com)
  770. # [19:54] <Ms2ger> It shouldn't be
  771. # [19:54] <Ms2ger> <Ms2ger> Fallback
  772. # [19:54] <Ms2ger> <Ms2ger> Accessibility
  773. # [19:54] <Ms2ger> <Ms2ger> Semantics
  774. # [19:55] <ondras> so if I do registerElement("my-button-1"), I can do <my-button-1>; when I registerElement("my-button-2", {extend:Button}), I am limited to <button is="my-button-2">
  775. # [19:55] <ondras> looks highly illogical to me.
  776. # [19:57] <jgraham> ondras: Why would you want to make a button that a non-web-components UA, or an AT, treats like a plain <div> rather than like a <button>?
  777. # [19:58] <ondras> jgraham: because I find it straightforward that registerElement("x") implies <x>
  778. # [19:58] <ondras> which is true
  779. # [19:58] <ondras> in *some* cases
  780. # [19:59] <ondras> but when I pass one very special additional argument to registerElement
  781. # [19:59] <ondras> I suddenly cannot do <x>
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  783. # [19:59] <ondras> from a purely API view, this looks truly strange.
  784. # [19:59] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra) (Quit: Leaving)
  785. # [19:59] <jgraham> ondras: what do you think a UA will do with a <my-button> element?
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  787. # [20:00] <ondras> jgraham: I have no idea. Shall I be interested in that?
  788. # [20:00] <ondras> my aim is to create a custom element that does some stuff
  789. # [20:00] <ondras> I am not sure what it does right now
  790. # [20:00] * Quits: totsinaprops (~totsinapr@gateway/tor-sasl/totsinaprops) (Remote host closed the connection)
  791. # [20:00] <ondras> but one day, someone will require some functionality
  792. # [20:00] <jgraham> ondras: Presumably your aim is to deliver some content to web users
  793. # [20:00] <ondras> preferrably.
  794. # [20:00] * Joins: totsinaprops (~totsinapr@gateway/tor-sasl/totsinaprops)
  795. # [20:00] <jgraham> In which case it makes sense to worry about how their UA will treat your content
  796. # [20:01] <ondras> probably according to the spec?
  797. # [20:01] <tobie> tbh, I understand the background for the is="foo" notation, but my first reaction to this was WTF.
  798. # [20:01] <ondras> hmh.
  799. # [20:01] <ondras> well I probably need some time to understand the reasons
  800. # [20:01] <Ms2ger> tobie, that's my first reaction to most of the web
  801. # [20:02] <ondras> what if I want to extend my-button that already extends button?
  802. # [20:02] <tobie> heh
  803. # [20:02] <jamesr__> Hixie: the 'compound microtask' concept seems to be unnecessary
  804. # [20:02] <ondras> <button is="my-button-2"> or <my-button is="my-button-2"> ?
  805. # [20:02] <jgraham> ondras: In a UA that doesn't support web-components, what will happen if you write <my-button>?
  806. # [20:02] <ondras> jgraham: it will be treated as <div>, I guess
  807. # [20:02] <tobie> jgraham: that's implementation specific
  808. # [20:02] <Ms2ger> tobie, wat
  809. # [20:02] <Hixie> jamesr__: only in a UA that doesn't support showModalDialog(). While I'm all for that, so far we haven't proved it's possible to drop it, and other UAs have indicated that they want to support it, including in microtasks.
  810. # [20:03] <Ms2ger> tobie, you're aware we're in the standardization business here?
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  813. # [20:03] <jgraham> tobie: No it isn't
  814. # [20:03] <ondras> :P
  815. # [20:03] <jgraham> ondras: Pretty much, yeah
  816. # [20:03] <tobie> old IE won't let you style the element at all, afaik
  817. # [20:03] <ondras> jgraham: the same applies to <my-calendar> that does not extend anything
  818. # [20:03] <Hixie> (more like <span>, actually)
  819. # [20:03] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@sjfw1.adobe.com)
  820. # [20:03] <jamesr__> Hixie: even in a UA that supports showModalDialog
  821. # [20:03] <jgraham> ondras: Well ideally that could extend input type=datetime
  822. # [20:04] <jgraham> Not sure if that's possible or not though
  823. # [20:04] * jorendorff_away is now known as jorendorff
  824. # [20:04] <ondras> jgraham: there are surely cases where I do not extend. or is that not desirable at all?
  825. # [20:04] <jamesr__> a better spin-the-event-loop definition would fix it too
  826. # [20:04] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  827. # [20:04] <ondras> jgraham: if the non-extend variant was banished, *that* would make sense to me.
  828. # [20:04] <jgraham> ondras: If you are creating a better version of a control that has native HTML sematics it's always better to extend
  829. # [20:04] <ondras> but having and not having <x> based on whether it extends something... weird.
  830. # [20:04] <Ms2ger> That would make a lot of sense to me too
  831. # [20:04] <Hixie> jamesr__: please file a bug with a concrete proposal. i don't see any other way to do it that satisfies all the constraints, but i'm happy to consider one if one exists.
  832. # [20:05] <jgraham> It makes it much more likely that your page will work in down-rev browsers, in assistive technologies and so on
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  834. # [20:06] <Hixie> always having to extend would make sense to me too, but extending <span> is kinda pointless, and that's what a lot of components would end up having to do, in practice
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  837. # [20:06] <tobie> jgraham: : I'm not suggesting this is intentionally left to be impl. specific--just that older IE won't even treat is as a regular div unless you use the document.createElement('foo') trick.
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  839. # [20:07] <jgraham> tobie: Isn't that quite old IE now?
  840. # [20:07] <tobie> fair enough.
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  842. # [20:08] * Joins: daleharvey (sid513@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bkbnulcyntnmwjll)
  843. # [20:08] <ondras> IE8?
  844. # [20:08] <ondras> it is old
  845. # [20:08] <ondras> but still about 20% here in .cz.
  846. # [20:08] <ondras> I see that extending <span> is pointless, but the complete API divergence re. <x> vs. <stuff is="x"> is so strikingly strange
  847. # [20:09] <ondras> either the goal *is* to introduce custom elements, or it is not
  848. # [20:09] <Hixie> (is there really much divergence? i would expect the former to basically just be syntactic sugar for <span is="x">)
  849. # [20:09] <ondras> perhaps the goal is to confuse developers by introducing a puzzling api? :)
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  851. # [20:10] <ondras> Hixie: *if* <my-button> was allowed (and recommended) as well
  852. # [20:10] <ondras> Hixie: so these two variants were freely interchangeable
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  854. # [20:10] <ondras> and one would pick the one that fits his compatibility needs
  855. # [20:10] <jgraham> The goal was to make the right thing easy and all things possible. The API ended up making the right thing hard :(
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  857. # [20:11] <ondras> to me, this looks like a clear message "do not try to make custom elements; extend instead"
  858. # [20:11] <Hixie> jgraham and ondras seem to be saying opposite things
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  861. # [20:11] <ondras> (which can be also read as "the burden of backward compatibility will haunt you, the developer, forever)
  862. # [20:12] <Hixie> but i'm confused as to why there's much difference at all
  863. # [20:12] <Hixie> extending is definitely better, if there's an appropriate element
  864. # [20:12] <jgraham> Yeah. I'm not sure why you think that <x-foo> is harder than <span is="x-foo">
  865. # [20:12] <ondras> better w.r.t. non-customelement UAs?
  866. # [20:13] <Hixie> better with respect to any UA. e.g. a web-componenents UA, when the web component files start 404ing.
  867. # [20:13] <Hixie> better w.r.t. search engines
  868. # [20:13] <Hixie> better w.r.t. downlevel clients
  869. # [20:14] <Hixie> better w.r.t. authors new to the widget library
  870. # [20:14] <ondras> okay. so when extending is better, I see no point in <x-foo>
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  872. # [20:16] <tobie> irc the JS API kind of make <x-foo> the expected markup, rather than <div is=x-foo>
  873. # [20:16] <Hixie> ondras: sometimes, there's nothing appropriate to extend.
  874. # [20:16] <Hixie> ondras: e.g. what would you extend if you wanted to make a chess board container?
  875. # [20:17] <TabAtkins> <x-foo> looks way better in the markup than <div is=x-foo>, and is easier to construct in JS. Has a lot of benefits.
  876. # [20:17] <Hixie> ondras: or a chess piece?
  877. # [20:17] <jgraham> I thought it was basically that people didn't like the extra keystrokes and (probably) planned to sell out all the cases where extending is better to make their code a bit prettier
  878. # [20:18] <Hixie> yes, the real reason people are pushing non-extended elements is that they think it's prettier and they don't care about all the things i said above
  879. # [20:18] <tobie> How do selectors handle these?
  880. # [20:18] <Hixie> which is lame
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  882. # [20:18] <Hixie> (but my point above is just that even if the main people pushing this have lame reasons, there are also good reasons)
  883. # [20:18] <Hixie> (so the lame reasons are moot)
  884. # [20:19] <tobie> E.g. when you do doc.querySelectorAll("x-foo"), does it also return <div is=x-foo>?
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  886. # [20:23] <ondras> Hixie: for something completely new, I would expect an <element is="chess-piece"> or something
  887. # [20:23] <ondras> for the sake of consistency with <button is="my-button">
  888. # [20:23] <Hixie> why is that better than <chess-piece> ?
  889. # [20:24] <Hixie> for consistency with <button> ?
  890. # [20:24] <ondras> Hixie: I thought you already outlined the reasons
  891. # [20:24] <ondras> 20:16 < Hixie> better w.r.t. search engines
  892. # [20:24] <ondras> 20:16 < Hixie> better w.r.t. downlevel clients
  893. # [20:24] <ondras> 20:17 < Hixie> better w.r.t. authors new to the widget library
  894. # [20:24] <Hixie> the reasons i gave don't apply here
  895. # [20:25] <Hixie> <element is="chess-piece"> and <chess-piece> are identical in all ways except syntax, as far as search engines, down-level clients, unfamiliar authors, etc, go.
  896. # [20:25] <ondras> also, how does the "extends" and "prototype" mix together? is it not sufficient to use only "prototype" ?
  897. # [20:25] <ondras> Hixie: right. but <button is="my-button"> and <my-button> are not, right?
  898. # [20:25] <Hixie> (can anyone test IE for me on http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=2845 ? what does the log say?)
  899. # [20:25] <Hixie> ondras: right
  900. # [20:25] <ondras> and that puzzles me.
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  902. # [20:26] <ondras> because you offer two ways of doing the same stuff (<e is="chess">, <chess>)
  903. # [20:26] <ondras> which is okay
  904. # [20:26] <Hixie> a better way to put it is <button is="zzz-zzz"> and <zzz-zzz> are different, but <zzz is="zzz-zzz"> and <zzz-zzz> are the same.
  905. # [20:26] <ondras> but you forbid one of them in a different context
  906. # [20:26] <Hixie> the difference is that the first (<button is="zzz-zzz">) has a well-understood value, plus the custom value.
  907. # [20:27] <Hixie> whereas the second has nothing well-understood.
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  909. # [20:27] <Hixie> (nor the third, nor the fourth)
  910. # [20:28] <ondras> my interest, as a web developer (and teacher), is what version shall I ideally use
  911. # [20:28] <Hixie> if you are extending an existing element, is="". otherwise, not is="".
  912. # [20:28] <ondras> the recommendation of using <my-chessboard> along with <button is="my-chess-clock-button"> simply looks inconsistent
  913. # [20:28] <ondras> that's all.
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  915. # [20:29] <ondras> 20:28 < ondras> also, how does the "extends" and "prototype" mix together? is it not sufficient to use only "prototype" ?
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  917. # [20:29] <ondras> i.e. registerElement("my-button", {prototype:Object.create(Button.prototype)})
  918. # [20:30] <ondras> somehow implies that I am extending the HTMLButtonElement
  919. # [20:30] <ondras> or how the hell is it called.
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  922. # [20:33] <tobie> it is extending it.
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  931. # [20:52] <ondras> tobie: ?
  932. # [20:52] <ondras> tobie: I am not sure I understood
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  936. # [20:54] <tobie> Well, as far as I understand, registerElement("my-button", {prototype:Object.create(Button.prototype)}) makes <my-button> and <button is=my-button> strictly identical in all but old browsers.
  937. # [20:56] <ondras> tobie: right. so why use registerElement("my-button", {extends:HTMLButtonElement}) ?
  938. # [20:56] <tobie> does that exist too?
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  941. # [20:59] <ondras> tobie: yes; when you extend stuff, you have to specify the "extends" clause in the registerElement descriptor.
  942. # [21:00] <MikeSmith> oh
  943. # [21:01] <ondras> which reminds me... what if the prototype/extends does not strictly match the localName of the "is" element?
  944. # [21:01] <ondras> as in
  945. # [21:01] <ondras> <button is="my-button">, registerElement("my-button", {prototype/extends: span})
  946. # [21:02] <MikeSmith> just syntax?
  947. # [21:02] <MikeSmith> conve
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  950. # [21:03] <MikeSmith> (that was in reply to earlier comment)
  951. # [21:04] <tobie> "conve" was?
  952. # [21:04] <MikeSmith> convenience
  953. # [21:04] <MikeSmith> I meant
  954. # [21:04] <MikeSmith> wifi here at Mozilla office seems not terrifically stable
  955. # [21:04] <tobie> MikeSmith: which office?
  956. # [21:05] <MikeSmith> and I'm on IRC in a persistent screen session so I drop off and some text may be buffered (or something)
  957. # [21:05] <tobie> Are you at the Testing F2F?
  958. # [21:05] <MikeSmith> tobie:yeah
  959. # [21:05] <MikeSmith> SF
  960. # [21:05] <tobie> Say hi to all these nice folks.
  961. # [21:05] <MikeSmith> the office by the Bay Bridge
  962. # [21:05] <MikeSmith> certainly will
  963. # [21:05] <tobie> ty
  964. # [21:06] * wilhelm waves to tobie
  965. # [21:06] <tobie> hey
  966. # [21:07] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, on the guest wifi? :)
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  968. # [21:10] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: yeah
  969. # [21:12] <MikeSmith> which by "guest" I guess it means it makes it de-guests you now and then so you can then enjoy the hospitality of getting re-guested anew often
  970. # [21:13] <Ms2ger> "Haven't you been on our couch for long enough now?"
  971. # [21:15] <MikeSmith> heh
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  976. # [21:19] <ondras> a-ha
  977. # [21:19] <ondras> it looks like extends:"button" is the *only* way to enable <button is="my-button">
  978. # [21:20] <ondras> otherwise I would be limited to the (not recommended) <my-button> syntax
  979. # [21:20] <ondras> although my-button inherits (prototype-wise) from HTMLButtonElement
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  981. # [21:20] <ondras> http://www.polymer-project.org/platform/custom-elements.html
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  989. # [21:35] <MikeSmith> ondras: oh so there is a difference
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  993. # [21:39] <ondras> MikeSmith: apparently. this stuff is rather complicated, I would say.
  994. # [21:40] <tobie> Yeah. The cognitive burden is huge. But that's OK because the rest of the platform is super consistant.
  995. # [21:41] <tobie> </sarcasm>
  996. # [21:41] <ondras> .)
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  1016. # [21:58] <smaug____> dglazkov: yeah, I should get back to that bug, but there were other event propagation changes too, IIRC
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  1018. # [21:58] <smaug____> something to do with multiple shadow roots
  1019. # [21:59] * smaug____ tries to find that
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  1024. # [22:01] <smaug____> dglazkov: one problem is that I haven't see any real world case needing the current behavior
  1025. # [22:01] <smaug____> perhaps I'm missing something
  1026. # [22:02] <smaug____> but unless there isn't any real world case, we shouldn't complicate event propagation
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  1047. # [22:25] <Domenic_> I anticipate nobody using is="" because it's too ugly and inconvenient.
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  1052. # [22:26] <Domenic_> If possible I would make <my-button> via document.registerElement("my-button", { prototype: HTMLButtonElement.prototype }) have the same UA benefits as <button is="my-button"> via document.registerElement("my-button", { extends: "button" })
  1053. # [22:26] <Domenic_> obviously not the same UA benefits for downlevel browsers
  1054. # [22:26] <Domenic_> but i think custom-element--using authors are not going to try very hard to make their stuff work there
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  1056. # [22:27] <Domenic_> TabAtkins: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-font-load-events/ 404s?
  1057. # [22:27] <TabAtkins> css-font-loading
  1058. # [22:28] <TabAtkins> Moved as part of the FPWD.
  1059. # [22:29] <Domenic_> TabAtkins: I don't quite understand why people don't like .ready(); it seems pretty distinct from .load().
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  1061. # [22:29] <TabAtkins> There's not really a need for .ready() separate from .load().
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  1063. # [22:30] <Domenic_> it does give you new capabilities though, right? The ability to get notified upon loading, without actually doing the loading.
  1064. # [22:30] <TabAtkins> Either you just want to check on the font, in which case you use .status, or you want to make sure it's loaded, in which case you call .load() regardless.
  1065. # [22:30] <Domenic_> ok, so the idea is that getting notified upon loading without initiating loading is not a useful use case.
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  1067. # [22:30] <TabAtkins> I think so, yeah.
  1068. # [22:30] <Domenic_> personally .load() + .loaded would make the most sense, but IIRC you can "re-load" or something so a property doesn't work...
  1069. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> Nah, can't reload.
  1070. # [22:31] <MikeSmith> wilhelm: are you using the Guest wifi in the f2f?
  1071. # [22:31] <Domenic_> oh, then why is .ready() currently a property?
  1072. # [22:31] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: Yes.
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  1074. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> Domenic_: ?_?
  1075. # [22:32] <Domenic_> TabAtkins: err sorry, currently a method I meant
  1076. # [22:32] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: "Mozilla Guest".
  1077. # [22:32] <TabAtkins> Because that's usually how it works?
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  1079. # [22:33] <Domenic_> TabAtkins: I dunno, [citation needed]? maybe in jQuery, but they never use properties for anything. Getter or data property makes most sense to me.
  1080. # [22:33] <Domenic_> Sigh, we need data properties.
  1081. # [22:33] <TabAtkins> data properties?
  1082. # [22:33] <Domenic_> non-accessors in WebIDL
  1083. # [22:34] <TabAtkins> Still not understanding.
  1084. # [22:34] <MikeSmith> wilhelm: yeah I get dropped pretty often for some reason
  1085. # [22:34] <Domenic_> I am going off the rails, sorry. But: I am saying that IMO the most reasonable thing for .loaded would be as a data property. Whereas WebIDL would force it to be a getter.
  1086. # [22:34] <TabAtkins> Still dont' know what "data property" means, so I cant' comment.
  1087. # [22:35] <Domenic_> defineProperty(FontFaceSet.prototype, { value: readyPromise }) vs. defineProperty(FontFaceSet.prototype, { get() { return readyPromise; } })
  1088. # [22:35] <Domenic_> err
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  1090. # [22:35] <Domenic_> you wouldn't put it on the prototype. nevermind, ignore me.
  1091. # [22:36] <TabAtkins> Okay. ^_^
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The end :)