/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-03-11 / end

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  82. # [03:13] <MikeSmith> zewt: fwiw, about the problem you mentioned the other day about the validator reporting errors about URLs with non-default ports -- the underlying problem will be going away soon, because I'm switching the URL checker in the validator away from the old Jena IRI checker we were usin
  83. # [03:14] <MikeSmith> switching to using smola_'s Galimatias instead https://github.com/smola/galimatias
  84. # [03:14] <MikeSmith> which implementes the whatwg URL spec
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  86. # [03:15] <MikeSmith> so if you have objections to any of the error messages after that, you can blame either smola_ for his code or AnneVK for his spec :-)
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  156. # [08:17] <MikeSmith> is anybody other than anne familiar with https://raw.github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/master/url/urltestdata.txt?
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  158. # [08:18] <MikeSmith> oh that came from webkit
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  174. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> hmm is the fragment part of a URL allowed to contain spaces?
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  176. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> not allowed but it appears that the parsing algorithm results in the fragment of the parsed URL retain ingthe space as-is
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  179. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> or maybe not, and smola_ parse has a bug[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[Dr
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  186. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> ok, http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#fragment-state : "3. utf-8 percent encode c using the simple encode set, and append the result to url's fragment.", where "The simple encode set are all code points less than U+0020 (i.e. excluding U+0020) and all code points greater than U+007E.", which doesn't include U+0032 SPACE so that behavior is expected
  187. # [09:46] <Ms2ger> Nono
  188. # [09:46] <Ms2ger> Space is 32 decimal, so U+0020
  189. # [09:46] * Ms2ger poofs
  190. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> oh
  191. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> weird then
  192. # [09:47] * MikeSmith looks back at smola_ code
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  216. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> nm
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  228. # [11:14] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I think anne subsumed urltestdata.txt into his tests
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  360. # [17:52] <sicking> abarth: ping
  361. # [17:52] <abarth> hi
  362. # [17:53] <sicking> abarth: saw your comment about deprecating "bigger" features in the showModalDialog thread
  363. # [17:53] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  364. # [17:53] <sicking> abarth: something we're unsurprisingly interested in too :)
  365. # [17:53] <abarth> that's mostly a reference to XSLT
  366. # [17:53] <sicking> abarth: by "bigger", do you mean "used more often"?
  367. # [17:53] <sicking> abarth: hah
  368. # [17:53] <abarth> the current approach we're pursuing for XSLT is to make a JS polyfill using asm.js
  369. # [17:53] <sicking> XSLT was my baby
  370. # [17:53] <abarth> oh, sorry :(
  371. # [17:54] <sicking> it's ok, she had a good run
  372. # [17:54] * jonlee_ is now known as jonlee_|afk
  373. # [17:54] <abarth> in principle, the polyfill should work in Firefox too
  374. # [17:54] * jonlee_|afk is now known as jonlee_
  375. # [17:54] <sicking> "it seemed like a good idea at the time"
  376. # [17:54] <abarth> yeah, it made sense in the past when JavaScript was slow
  377. # [17:55] <sicking> yeah
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  379. # [17:55] <sicking> why polyfill with asm.js? Would you compile all of libxml?
  380. # [17:55] <abarth> are there specific things you're interested in deprecating? these sorts of thing are more likely to stick if we coordinate
  381. # [17:55] <abarth> yes
  382. # [17:55] <abarth> libxml + libxslt
  383. # [17:55] <sicking> wow!
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  385. # [17:55] <abarth> then an extension to expose the API to web pages
  386. # [17:55] <sicking> why not just use the DOM?
  387. # [17:56] <sicking> and do a DOM->DOM transformation
  388. # [17:56] <abarth> I don't want to re-implement XSLT in JavaScript
  389. # [17:56] <sicking> ok
  390. # [17:56] <abarth> there are several people who've tried that
  391. # [17:56] <abarth> and their things sort of, kind of work
  392. # [17:56] <abarth> I also tried a Java one
  393. # [17:56] <abarth> compiled it to JS using GWT
  394. # [17:56] <sicking> disable-output-escaping is the big thing you'd lose
  395. # [17:56] <abarth> and that worked for about half the sites
  396. # [17:57] <abarth> but it had some bugs
  397. # [17:57] <abarth> i fixed some of the bugs, but there were more bugs
  398. # [17:57] <abarth> so I got sad and decided we needed to use the libxslt implementation
  399. # [17:57] <sicking> heh
  400. # [17:57] <sicking> makes sense
  401. # [17:58] <sicking> abarth: showModalDialog is definitely the big one that would be exiting to get rid of. XSLT is an interesting one too, though if we polyfill it's not really "getting rid of"
  402. # [17:58] <abarth> the idea is that we would put the polyfill in the extension gallery
  403. # [17:58] <abarth> and not ship it with the browser
  404. # [17:58] <sicking> (also, my heart does cry a little getting rid of XSLT)
  405. # [17:58] <abarth> if people wanted to use it, they could install the extension
  406. # [17:59] <abarth> also, people who were passionate about XSLT could fork our version and improve it
  407. # [17:59] <jgraham> Hmm
  408. # [17:59] <sicking> i see
  409. # [17:59] <sicking> interesting
  410. # [17:59] <jgraham> I thought there was enough of the public internet using XSLT that wasn't viable
  411. # [17:59] <abarth> i'm hopeful we can solve that problem by making the extension discoverable
  412. # [17:59] <sicking> jgraham: the numbers that chrome is collecting looks really low
  413. # [18:00] <sicking> jgraham: much lower than showmodaldialog
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  415. # [18:00] <jgraham> A few years ago it was enough that Opera felt the need to implement it at least
  416. # [18:00] <abarth> e.g., an infobar that says "this page is using an old API, click here to install a compatibility shim"
  417. # [18:00] <jgraham> Maybe usage has declined
  418. # [18:00] <sicking> don't know
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  420. # [18:00] <sicking> i'd definitely want to get Gecko specific stats
  421. # [18:00] <sicking> anyhow
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  423. # [18:01] <sicking> abarth: there's a lot of interesting APIs on the Chrome usage stats page
  424. # [18:01] <abarth> http://www.chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity/79
  425. # [18:01] <abarth> http://www.chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity/78
  426. # [18:01] <abarth> the XSLT thing is a bit of a dream still. we're still working on the technical part
  427. # [18:01] <abarth> sicking: those are just whatever people happened to add metrics for
  428. # [18:01] <abarth> sicking: I wouldn't read into it too much
  429. # [18:01] <sicking> abarth: <isindex> for example. And document.all()
  430. # [18:02] <abarth> we've removed <isindex>
  431. # [18:02] * Joins: llkats (~llkats@206.169.83.230)
  432. # [18:02] <sicking> abarth: oh? Also <input name=isindex>?
  433. # [18:02] <abarth> data:text/html,<input name=isindex>
  434. # [18:02] <abarth> yep
  435. # [18:02] * Joins: eric_carlson (~eric@17.202.43.125)
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  438. # [18:04] <sicking> abarth: neat
  439. # [18:04] <sicking> abarth: when you say "don't read too much into it", does that mean you don't think the numbers are accurate?
  440. # [18:05] <sicking> abarth: or does it mean that there's many more things that might have low usage but you don't gather stats on it
  441. # [18:05] * Joins: benvie (~bbenvie@204.28.118.69)
  442. # [18:05] <sicking> I expected the latter, not the former
  443. # [18:05] * Quits: numerical (numerical@s-e-c-u-r-e-d.info) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  444. # [18:05] <abarth> the latter
  445. # [18:06] <sicking> ok
  446. # [18:06] <sicking> cool
  447. # [18:06] <sicking> abarth: other things that I'd love to see stats on (we're building the same thing for gecko, so i can get it myself soon) is document.domain-setter and namespaced attributes (modulo the SVG ones)
  448. # [18:07] * llkats is now known as llkittens
  449. # [18:08] <abarth> yeah, those would be interesting
  450. # [18:09] <sicking> in part, getting rid of document.domain setting could allow a more narrow process infrastructure
  451. # [18:09] <sicking> i.e. process-per-origin rather than process-per-eTLD+1
  452. # [18:10] <sicking> process separation in particular is something we have to figure out to make webapps happen I think
  453. # [18:10] <jgraham> Pretty sure that document.domain setting is used every-f—ing-where
  454. # [18:11] <abarth> jgraham: it used to be used by facebook. not sure if they still use it
  455. # [18:11] <sicking> yeah
  456. # [18:11] <jgraham> Also Yahoo
  457. # [18:12] * Joins: morrita_ (uid16889@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ejbbbtjhtffadbuh)
  458. # [18:15] <sicking> if it's just a couple of sites that use it a lot, then that gives some hope of getting rid of it
  459. # [18:15] <sicking> by evangelizing said sites
  460. # [18:15] * Quits: benvie (~bbenvie@204.28.118.69) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  461. # [18:15] <jgraham> That is a very optimistic view
  462. # [18:15] <sicking> or even by whitelisting them and removing it elsewhere, then evangelizing
  463. # [18:15] <jgraham> :)
  464. # [18:16] <sicking> i try to be :)
  465. # [18:17] * jonlee_ is now known as jonlee_|afk
  466. # [18:17] <sicking> wow, SVG is used on over 9 percent of the web
  467. # [18:17] <sicking> that's amazing
  468. # [18:18] <sicking> hmm.. though "SVGSVGElementInDocument" says only 0.1%. I'm not sure what that means
  469. # [18:18] * Joins: benvie (~bbenvie@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  470. # [18:18] <Ms2ger> Maybe inline vs <img>?
  471. # [18:19] <sicking> ooh
  472. # [18:19] <sicking> both inline and <img> counts as "in document". But Modernizr (presumably feature detection) doesn't
  473. # [18:19] * Joins: benvie_ (~bbenvie@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  474. # [18:20] <abarth> sicking: yes, we've tried a couple times to quantify SVG usage
  475. # [18:20] <abarth> i think modernizr was causing tricking us a few times
  476. # [18:20] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141) (Remote host closed the connection)
  477. # [18:20] <sicking> so i guess pages use libraries that check if svg is supported, but then never actually use svg in any form?
  478. # [18:20] <abarth> yes
  479. # [18:21] * Joins: benv (~benv@38.104.194.126)
  480. # [18:21] <sicking> makes sense
  481. # [18:21] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141)
  482. # [18:21] <abarth> we can check with pdr to be sure
  483. # [18:21] * Joins: danielwrobert (~Adium@wsip-68-15-24-46.sd.sd.cox.net)
  484. # [18:21] <abarth> we had the same trouble with webkitNotifications
  485. # [18:21] <abarth> where people would touch the property but not actually use it
  486. # [18:22] * Quits: benvie (~bbenvie@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  487. # [18:23] <sicking> abarth: i'm surprised that some of the properties see such big changes in use of such short period of time. Makes me worried about trusting the data
  488. # [18:23] <abarth> which properties?
  489. # [18:23] <sicking> for example http://www.chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity/211
  490. # [18:23] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-50-136-134-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  491. # [18:23] <sicking> http://www.chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity/211
  492. # [18:24] <abarth> that's probably the metric rolling out into the stable channel
  493. # [18:24] <sicking> aah
  494. # [18:24] <abarth> the graphics aren't well normalized
  495. # [18:24] <abarth> we have more detailed graphics internally that slice and dice by version and platform
  496. # [18:24] * WolfieZero is now known as WolfieZero|Away
  497. # [18:25] <abarth> if you have specific questions, I can dig into those for you
  498. # [18:25] * Joins: numerical (numerical@s-e-c-u-r-e-d.info)
  499. # [18:25] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  500. # [18:25] <sicking> does those internal graphs allow you to get stats per website?
  501. # [18:26] <sicking> i.e. could you see if document.domain is only used by facebook/yahoo for example?
  502. # [18:26] <sicking> (i'm not really hoping that we can get rid of document.domain anytime soon)
  503. # [18:26] * Joins: WolfieZero (~WolfieZer@neils-wireless.manor.fubra.net)
  504. # [18:26] * jonlee_|afk is now known as jonlee_
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  506. # [18:27] <abarth> no, we don't have per-site data
  507. # [18:27] <abarth> its aggregated by page views
  508. # [18:27] * Quits: rdebeasi (~rdebeasi@datacenter.ef.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  509. # [18:27] <sicking> ok
  510. # [18:28] * Joins: rdebeasi (~rdebeasi@datacenter.ef.com)
  511. # [18:28] <sicking> another thing that would be lovely to get rid of is GlobalScopePolluter. But I think we'd only have a chance to do so on non-quirks pages. Or in ES6 strict mode or some such
  512. # [18:28] * Parts: adactio (~adactio@212.42.170.181)
  513. # [18:30] <Ms2ger> Remember how we only supported it in quirks and Chrome's demos pushed us to enable it everywhere?
  514. # [18:30] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  515. # [18:32] <Domenic_> that was IE's demos right?
  516. # [18:33] <sicking> Ms2ger: Right, that was MS's demos. And it wasn't intentional I bet
  517. # [18:33] <Domenic_> it seemed intentional... trying to create something that failed in other browsers...
  518. # [18:33] <sicking> Domenic_: i don't think it was. They just didn't care about testing in other browsers
  519. # [18:34] <sicking> which arguably is equivalent to making it not work in other browsers
  520. # [18:34] <sicking> but I don't think they were intentional about breaking in other browsers
  521. # [18:34] <sicking> anyhow, that's just guessing
  522. # [18:35] <Domenic_> it was a sad time, i am still somewhat bitter
  523. # [18:35] <sicking> Ms2ger: and just because we couldn't get consensus to do something good about GlobalScopePolluter back then, doesn't mean that we can't get it now
  524. # [18:35] <Ms2ger> Oh, sure
  525. # [18:36] <sicking> Domenic_: actually, since I have you here...
  526. # [18:36] <sicking> Domenic_: I had one more thought on binary Streams
  527. # [18:37] * Joins: felipeduardo (~felipedua@177.16.92.155)
  528. # [18:37] <Domenic_> sicking: yes?
  529. # [18:37] * jonlee_ is now known as jonlee_|afk
  530. # [18:37] <sicking> Domenic_: have you thought about performance around Streams that shuffle lots of data? In particular about how many times an implementation will have to copy data between buffers?
  531. # [18:37] <Domenic_> sicking: that is our primary concern :P
  532. # [18:38] <Domenic_> there should be no copying in any in-process use cases
  533. # [18:38] <sicking> Domenic_: I don't think that is possible in the current API
  534. # [18:38] <Domenic_> sicking: it is possible, as shown by the implementation that does so
  535. # [18:38] <sicking> hmm...
  536. # [18:39] <Domenic_> the buffers can be implemented as queues (i.e. with pointers)
  537. # [18:39] * Quits: bholley (~bholley@98.210.101.88) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  538. # [18:40] <Domenic_> so the location of the data chunks (e.g. ArrayBuffer backing stores) can stay the same all the time
  539. # [18:40] <sicking> Domenic_: So say that I have a Stream representing reading from a file
  540. # [18:40] * Joins: bholley (~bholley@98.210.101.88)
  541. # [18:41] <sicking> Domenic_: well.. if you just keep pointers to ArrayBuffers, then that means that you'll end up with an array of ArrayBuffers when the data is asked for. Not a single ArrayBuffer
  542. # [18:41] <Domenic_> yes
  543. # [18:41] <Domenic_> you ask for one chunk at a time
  544. # [18:42] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED57922.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  545. # [18:42] <Domenic_> read() returns a single chunk, in whatever format---object, arraybuffer, string, etc.
  546. # [18:42] <Domenic_> (whatever the stream wants to give you)
  547. # [18:42] <Domenic_> if you want to concatenate them for some reason (you should never need to do this really...) then you'd do so yourself, and pay the cost.
  548. # [18:43] * WolfieZero is now known as WolfieZero|Away
  549. # [18:43] <sicking> Domenic_: So read() doesn't return all data read so far? It just returns the first buffer of all data read so far (API-wise that's the same, but implementation and performance-wise they are different)
  550. # [18:43] <Domenic_> while the stream is readable, read() returns the oldest unread chunk
  551. # [18:43] <Domenic_> you call read() repeatedly until the stream is no longer readable
  552. # [18:44] <sicking> Domenic_: so that's a "yes"?
  553. # [18:44] <Domenic_> sicking: I don't know what "first buffer" means, but "probably"?
  554. # [18:45] <Domenic_> sicking: https://github.com/whatwg/streams/blob/master/Examples.md#usage
  555. # [18:46] <sicking> Domenic_: well.. if I have a Stream that represents reading from a file. The way I'd probably implement that is by having some background thread allocate buffers, then issue a read() call into that buffer and then send the buffer to the JS thread. And then do that in a loop until I've read the whole file.
  556. # [18:46] <sicking> Domenic_: how fast I'd be sending buffers is a function of the OS IO performance at the time
  557. # [18:46] <sicking> Domenic_: i.e. i might be creating buffers faster than JS is consuming them
  558. # [18:46] <Domenic_> sicking: ok, by buffers here you mean "ArrayBuffers" (or their C++ backing stores), not "stream buffers". I guess that's confusing.
  559. # [18:46] * WolfieZero|Away is now known as WolfieZero
  560. # [18:47] <sicking> Domenic_: I mean their C++ backing stores
  561. # [18:47] <sicking> Domenic_: which is essentially the same as an ArrayBuffer yes
  562. # [18:47] <Domenic_> streams each have a single buffer containing the chunks available for reading, so that's the confusion
  563. # [18:47] <Domenic_> but ok makes sense
  564. # [18:47] <sicking> Domenic_: so when the call comes to read(), I might be sitting on a long list of ArrayBuffers
  565. # [18:48] <Domenic_> you shouldn't be, if you are respecting the backpressure
  566. # [18:48] <Domenic_> the stream asks the underlying source (i.e. your C++) for a certain number of bytes
  567. # [18:48] <Domenic_> up to a high water mark
  568. # [18:49] <Domenic_> e.g. 16 KB
  569. # [18:49] <Domenic_> so that is supposed to be the maximum stored in memory at any given time
  570. # [18:49] <sicking> Domenic_: We want to enable paralell IO and processing, no?
  571. # [18:49] <Domenic_> then it waits for the consumer to start draining that before asking you to fill back up to the HWM
  572. # [18:49] <Domenic_> sure, but the point of streams is to limit the memory used
  573. # [18:50] <Domenic_> so say 16 KB at a time
  574. # [18:50] <sicking> Domenic_: sure, I'm not saying that we'd consume unlimited amounts of space.
  575. # [18:50] <Domenic_> ok
  576. # [18:50] <Hixie> abarth: didn't realise you'd gotten rid of name=isindex, on the thread it was only the parser thing that people were talking about
  577. # [18:50] <sicking> Domenic_: but reading 16KB into a single buffer, and then stop IO until that buffer has been requested by the page doesn't seem good performance-wise
  578. # [18:50] <abarth> Hixie: maybe I don't understand what name=isindex does
  579. # [18:50] <abarth> Hixie: i think we only changed the parser
  580. # [18:50] <Domenic_> sicking: i was told the most natural (backing-)buffer size for most OSes was 1KB
  581. # [18:51] <sicking> abarth: no, looks like you got rod of more than the parser
  582. # [18:51] <Hixie> abarth: does look like name=isindex is gone too
  583. # [18:51] <abarth> ok, i didn't review the actual code change
  584. # [18:51] <Domenic_> sicking: well, what if you are uploading that to a server over a slow connection?
  585. # [18:51] <sicking> Domenic_: that might be true
  586. # [18:52] <Domenic_> sicking: maybe in browsers a higher default HWM makes sense. In node by default each stream should take only 16 KB max of memory
  587. # [18:52] <Domenic_> sicking: but maybe in browsers we anticipate fewer streams open at a given time so it should be higher
  588. # [18:52] <sicking> Domenic_: i agree that backpressure is an important topic. But it also seems important to support reading from a file at maximum speed, no?
  589. # [18:52] <Domenic_> sicking: you should read from the file exactly as fast as the consumer is able to process data
  590. # [18:52] <sicking> Domenic_: that's impossible
  591. # [18:52] <Domenic_> sicking: if the consumer processes data synchronously, then there will be no difference between a HWM of 16KB and a HWM of 0 KB
  592. # [18:53] <Domenic_> because in both cases the data never accumulates
  593. # [18:53] <Domenic_> so the limit is never hit
  594. # [18:53] <Hixie> abarth: hey while you're here, quick TLS question unrelated to HTML. If I have two servers who talk to each other over TLS, can the "client" authenticate with a server certificate to prove its host name to the "server"?
  595. # [18:53] <sicking> Domenic_: i'm still not understanding how you envison an implementation should work
  596. # [18:53] <Domenic_> sicking: exactly like the one we already have does work :)
  597. # [18:54] <abarth> Hixie: I think the client and server certs are different, but I'm not sure
  598. # [18:54] <sicking> Domenic_: then I don't understand how the one you already has does work
  599. # [18:54] <Hixie> abarth: ah, bummer
  600. # [18:54] <Domenic_> sicking: OK, I will find the source code for you
  601. # [18:54] <abarth> Hixie: you should check with someone who is sure though
  602. # [18:54] <Hixie> abarth: who would know better than you?
  603. # [18:54] <abarth> I'd ask agl
  604. # [18:55] <sicking> Domenic_: do you know how it works?
  605. # [18:55] <Hixie> abarth: k, thanks
  606. # [18:55] * Quits: numerical (numerical@s-e-c-u-r-e-d.info) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  607. # [18:55] <Domenic_> sicking: yes, but it's easier to point to code
  608. # [18:55] <Domenic_> sicking: https://github.com/joyent/node/blob/master/lib/fs.js#L1518
  609. # [18:55] <Domenic_> when the consumer asks for data, you read it and give it back to them
  610. # [18:56] <Domenic_> _read is called by the stream implementation when the stream's buffer is below the HWM.
  611. # [18:56] <sicking> Domenic_: so you don't issue a filesystem read until someone calls read()?
  612. # [18:56] <Domenic_> so this ensures the stream's buffer is always full up to the HWM
  613. # [18:57] <Domenic_> sicking: you preemtively fill the buffer up to the HWM, but once the HWM is reached you stop filling until they call read() to make space in the buffer.
  614. # [18:57] * WolfieZero is now known as WolfieZero|Away
  615. # [18:57] <sicking> Domenic_: so when you issue a filesystem read, you issue it for the full HWM size?
  616. # [18:57] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.202.49.115)
  617. # [18:58] * jonlee_|afk is now known as jonlee_
  618. # [18:59] <Domenic_> sicking: you should issue it for the amount of space in the buffer. Initially that will be full HWM size; after a single read() it will be [full HWM size - size of returned chunk]
  619. # [18:59] <Domenic_> after five reads it will be [full HWM size - 5 * size of returned chunk]
  620. # [18:59] <sicking> Domenic_: why wouldn't you return the full chunk?
  621. # [18:59] <sicking> Domenic_: wait
  622. # [19:00] <Domenic_> let's say the buffer has room for 16 chunks before hitting HWM
  623. # [19:00] <sicking> Domenic_: before we go further, lets be more explicit about what buffers we are talking about
  624. # [19:00] <Domenic_> yes, i am talking about the stream's buffer
  625. # [19:00] <Domenic_> which has room for e.g. 16 KB of data
  626. # [19:00] <sicking> is a "buffer" a continuous piece of memory?
  627. # [19:00] <Domenic_> i use "chunk" for a 1 KB chunk of data from the file
  628. # [19:00] <sicking> is a "chunk" a continuous piece of memory?
  629. # [19:01] <Domenic_> yes
  630. # [19:01] <sicking> so chunk is continous but buffer is not?
  631. # [19:01] <Domenic_> the stream's buffer is just a queue
  632. # [19:01] <sicking> a buffer is an array of up to 16 chunks?
  633. # [19:01] <Domenic_> yeah
  634. # [19:01] <Domenic_> conceptually
  635. # [19:01] <sicking> ok, cool
  636. # [19:01] <Domenic_> in node it looks like they use a contiguous chunk as a "pool" for the stream's buffer
  637. # [19:02] * Joins: shepazu (~shepazu@69.38.214.170)
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  639. # [19:02] * Joins: numerical (numerical@s-e-c-u-r-e-d.info)
  640. # [19:02] <sicking> ok, so the first thing you do is that you issue a 1KB read to the OS to read into the first chunk
  641. # [19:02] <sicking> and then you do that in a loop until you have 16 chunks
  642. # [19:03] <Domenic_> if i am understanding my sources correctly, yes :)
  643. # [19:03] <Domenic_> these sources who tell me reading 1 KB at a time is best
  644. # [19:03] <sicking> meanwhile, if read() is called, you return the first chunk and the first chunk only
  645. # [19:03] <sicking> ?
  646. # [19:03] <Domenic_> yup
  647. # [19:04] * WolfieZero|Away is now known as WolfieZero
  648. # [19:04] <sicking> ok, so that's what I was asking for earlier. No matter how many chunks (sorry, i used "buffer" earlier) has been read, you just return the first one
  649. # [19:04] <Domenic_> ok, heh, sorry it took us so long to get there
  650. # [19:05] <Domenic_> yeah the buffer thing is confusing...
  651. # [19:05] <Domenic_> it's about "buffering" data, so i'm hesitant to rename it to "queue," but that might be less confusing...
  652. # [19:05] <sicking> often times "memory buffer" is used to describe a continuous block of memory that has been allocated
  653. # [19:06] <sicking> which is what got me confused
  654. # [19:06] <sicking> obviously there are many other types of buffers though
  655. # [19:07] <Domenic_> i will open an issue, if other people agree that it is confusing i am happy to rename
  656. # [19:07] <sicking> i don't really care, just explaining the terminology i'm used to
  657. # [19:07] <sicking> if these terms appear in the spec, then it'd be good to explain them
  658. # [19:08] * jonlee_ is now known as jonlee_|afk
  659. # [19:08] <Domenic_> For sure
  660. # [19:08] <sicking> ok, i'll have to chat up some other people that know IO performance better than me to know if this is a good strategy
  661. # [19:09] <Domenic_> sounds good! feel free to put them in touch or open issues or whatnot.
  662. # [19:10] <sicking> one thing that is not possible in the current API, but that I think might be too non-JSy to worry about, is being able to reuse ArrayBuffer objects
  663. # [19:10] <sicking> so you end up with a bunch of churn
  664. # [19:10] <sicking> allocator churn
  665. # [19:10] <sicking> but i suspect that's fine
  666. # [19:11] * Joins: shannonmoeller (~shannonmo@nat.sierrabravo.net)
  667. # [19:11] <sicking> s/ArrayBuffer objects/Arraybuffer backing store objects/
  668. # [19:11] <Domenic_> hmm yeah i had requests for that from a node person actually
  669. # [19:11] <Domenic_> .readInto(ab)
  670. # [19:12] <sicking> the tricky part is that you don't want to allow the page to have a reference to an ArrayBuffer that you are writing into on a background thread
  671. # [19:12] <sicking> so you have to mess around with transferring ArrayBuffers back and forth
  672. # [19:12] <sicking> which is messy
  673. # [19:13] <Domenic_> ah yeah makes sense
  674. # [19:13] <Domenic_> cf. web audio api?
  675. # [19:13] <sicking> But the API might be as simple as Stream.releaseBuffer(ab) after you're done with it
  676. # [19:13] * WolfieZero is now known as WolfieZero|Away
  677. # [19:13] * WolfieZero|Away is now known as WolfieZero
  678. # [19:14] <sicking> i haven't looked at webaudio
  679. # [19:14] <sicking> not sure what they do
  680. # [19:14] * WolfieZero is now known as WolfieZero|Away
  681. # [19:14] <Domenic_> well there was a whole issue with data races
  682. # [19:15] <Domenic_> which iirc was exactly that "writing into it on a background thread" thing
  683. # [19:15] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-50-136-134-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  684. # [19:15] <sicking> ah, right
  685. # [19:15] <sicking> ok, gotta head into office
  686. # [19:16] <sicking> i'll try to get some perf guys to look at this. Not sure if i'll be able to, but i'll try
  687. # [19:17] <Domenic_> awesome, thank you
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  689. # [19:17] <sicking> Domenic_: oooh, now i see what I was looking for. Is it expected that readBytes() will cause memory copying?
  690. # [19:17] <sicking> if so, that makes sense
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  692. # [19:20] <Domenic_> sicking: er, i think you are looking at the wrong spec?
  693. # [19:20] <Domenic_> sicking: https://github.com/whatwg/streams
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  703. # [19:41] <sicking> Domenic_: oooh! This looks so much better!
  704. # [19:41] <Domenic_> sicking: ahaha yay! :D
  705. # [19:41] <sicking> Domenic_: does read() return a promise?
  706. # [19:41] * jonlee_ is now known as jonlee_|afk
  707. # [19:42] <Domenic_> sicking: nope, it's synchronous
  708. # [19:42] <sicking> Domenic_: how do you know if you can read from it?
  709. # [19:42] <sicking> .state?
  710. # [19:42] <Domenic_> yeah exactly, state === "readable"
  711. # [19:43] <sicking> do you got a callback when state changes?
  712. # [19:43] <sicking> oh, wait()?
  713. # [19:43] <Domenic_> yeah, exactly
  714. # [19:43] <sicking> so you do while(state === readable) process(read()) ?
  715. # [19:43] <Domenic_> i bet with this in hand the examples at https://github.com/whatwg/streams/blob/master/Examples.md#readable-streams make more sense
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  717. # [19:44] <sicking> man, i'm so happy all the encoding stuff is dropped
  718. # [19:44] <Domenic_> hahaha me too man
  719. # [19:44] <sicking> i wasn't looking forward to having that argument :)
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  721. # [19:49] <sicking> Domenic_: so it feels like you need a lot of boilerplate to implement streamToConsole. I.e. something that essentially pipes the stream into a process() function
  722. # [19:52] <Domenic_> sicking: somewhat agreed. the idea is it's a lower-level primitive and there will be lots of user-land stream-utils packages, or writable streams
  723. # [19:52] <Domenic_> interestingly in node it's not popular to simply stream something to a process function
  724. # [19:52] <Domenic_> normally it would be a writable or transform stream
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  726. # [19:53] <sicking> Domenic_: interesting
  727. # [19:54] <sicking> Domenic_: a TransformStream which pipes all data through a mapping function might address the use cases
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  729. # [19:54] <Domenic_> yeah, I think it's part of the non-minimal subset to have easy ways of creating properly-behaved transform streams.
  730. # [19:55] <sicking> Domenic_: though honesly, the cases I've needed the most are simply piping the data to disk or to a network connection
  731. # [19:55] <sicking> so no processing needed
  732. # [19:55] <Domenic_> right, in that case, writable streams :)
  733. # [19:55] <sicking> right
  734. # [19:56] <sicking> or simply allowing XHR.send() to take a ReadableStream
  735. # [19:59] <sicking> Domenic_: any thoughts on putBack(ab)? It's something that we've somewhat needed internally in Gecko
  736. # [19:59] <Domenic_> sicking: I am almost sure it is needed actually.
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  738. # [19:59] <Domenic_> i was trying to get away with not needing it but it seems likely.
  739. # [19:59] <Domenic_> https://github.com/whatwg/streams/issues/3 the minimalists are arguing "do it yourself" but I think giving you the ability to push onto the stream's buffer, instead of maintaining your own, is much better.
  740. # [20:00] <Domenic_> More unclear is https://github.com/whatwg/streams/issues/74
  741. # [20:00] <sicking> the case we had was wanting to peek at the beginning of a stream and decide what to do with it (display or save-to-disk). Once we had determined that we wanted to do either, it was really annoying to have to deal with sending a <data we've pulled out of stream to peek, remaining stream> tuple to the chosen consumer, rather than just a simple stream
  742. # [20:00] <Domenic_> (which is related)
  743. # [20:00] <sicking> yeah, "do it yourself" has performance implications
  744. # [20:00] <Domenic_> i wonder about putBack vs. peek
  745. # [20:00] <sicking> that i don't know though
  746. # [20:00] <sicking> either might work
  747. # [20:01] <sicking> the tricky thing with peek is how to deal with a consumer that doesn't know how many bytes it needs to peek
  748. # [20:01] <sicking> you don't want it to have to do peek(10), then if that wasn't enough data peek(20) etc
  749. # [20:02] <sicking> but how do you create an API that allows you to "peek a little more, on top of what i previously peeked"
  750. # [20:02] <Domenic_> hmm yeah
  751. # [20:02] <sicking> potentially you could use a tee
  752. # [20:02] <Domenic_> is putBack better in that regard?
  753. # [20:03] <sicking> putback would let you do read() until you've got enough data, then do a putBack(array-of-all-data-I-read)
  754. # [20:03] <Domenic_> ah ok i see
  755. # [20:03] <Domenic_> that's a fairly solid argument
  756. # [20:03] <sicking> but potentially you could also do a tee, and then read from the tee
  757. # [20:04] <sicking> that leaves the original stream unchanged
  758. # [20:04] <sicking> i.e. you'd implement peek by tee-ing the stream
  759. # [20:04] <sicking> a tee might have performance overhead though. Depending on how it handles chunks and buffers
  760. # [20:05] <sicking> arbuably, read-then-putback is also going to affect buffers to some extent
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  762. # [20:05] <Domenic_> i am tempted to avoid tees if possible; they seem annoying and complex
  763. # [20:06] <Domenic_> (but of course necessary in some cases)
  764. # [20:06] <sicking> yeah
  765. # [20:07] <sicking> btw, if you go the putBack route, then it'd be great if you could transfer buffers into the stream when putting them back. Otherwise the stream has to copy them
  766. # [20:07] <Domenic_> why would it have to copy them?
  767. # [20:07] <Domenic_> it wouldn't need to modify them after they're put back
  768. # [20:08] <Domenic_> it would just keep it around for the next read() call
  769. # [20:08] <sicking> since ArrayBuffers are mutable. And you don't want whoever putBack the data to be able to mutate the data once it's semantically "in the stream"
  770. # [20:08] <Domenic_> mmm :-/
  771. # [20:08] <Domenic_> well but streams are not just ArrayBuffers. This is a general issue with any mutable objects you put back in the stream
  772. # [20:09] <sicking> yup
  773. # [20:09] <sicking> this is also an issue for peek
  774. # [20:09] <sicking> you don't want to enable someone to peek the start of the stream and then mutate the contents of the un-read() data
  775. # [20:10] <sicking> it's arguably (though yehuda might not agree) somewhat different with ArrayBuffers
  776. # [20:10] <sicking> I don't think of a Stream as a objectstream of ArrayBuffer objects
  777. # [20:10] <sicking> I think of it as a stream of bytes
  778. # [20:10] <sicking> it seems surprising that you could mutate those bytes inside the stream
  779. # [20:11] <sicking> with a stream of objects you can't mutate which objects the stream if containing
  780. # [20:11] * WolfieZero is now known as WolfieZero|Away
  781. # [20:11] <sicking> but you can mutate the objects
  782. # [20:11] <Domenic_> it seems pretty awkward to think of it as a stream of bytes
  783. # [20:11] <sicking> really?
  784. # [20:11] <Domenic_> read() would then return a single byte
  785. # [20:11] <sicking> well, we do chunks for performance
  786. # [20:11] <sicking> but really what we're semantically representing is a stream of bytes
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  788. # [20:12] <Domenic_> but that's not what the API is communicating :-S
  789. # [20:12] <Domenic_> besides, why bytes and not words or bits or disk sectors? :P
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  792. # [20:14] <sicking> well.. there's the whole platform endianness debacle
  793. # [20:14] <sicking> but if we agree that it's unfortunate that ArrayBufferViews expose CPU endianness
  794. # [20:14] <sicking> then an ArrayBuffer contains bytes and not words
  795. # [20:14] <sicking> but yes, you can think of it as a stream of bits too
  796. # [20:14] <sicking> a stream of bits and a stream of bytes seem equivalent
  797. # [20:15] <Domenic_> i guess i am more concerned about how consumers interact with the API than what is semantically being represented
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  799. # [20:15] <sicking> sure, but it'll affect API behavior
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  801. # [20:17] <sicking> if you create a WritableStream/ReadableStream pair (can you?), would you expect that object identity of ArrayBuffer objects would remain?
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  804. # [20:18] <Domenic_> what do you mean by a pair in this case?
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  807. # [20:18] <sicking> can you create a WriableStream/ReadableStream pair such that anything that's written into the WriableStream appears in the ReadableStream?
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  809. # [20:19] <Domenic_> sure, that's an identity transform stream
  810. # [20:20] <sicking> do you have to write JS code which pumps data between the two? Or can you create a pair of platform objects where that happens automatically?
  811. # [20:22] <Domenic_> you could create platform objects implement in JS... but the JS code to pump data between the two would just be something like `new TransformStream(function (in) { return this.addToOutput(in); })` (non-final API)
  812. # [20:24] <sicking> is a TransformStream both a readablestream and a writablestream in one object?
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  814. # [20:24] <Domenic_> it is an { input: WritableStream, output: WritableStream } object literal
  815. # [20:24] <Domenic_> not nominally type-checked, of course
  816. # [20:25] <sicking> do you mean { input: WritableStream, output: ReadableStream }?
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  818. # [20:25] <Domenic_> yes, sorry
  819. # [20:25] <sicking> wait, i stil don't get it. What does the 'this' map to in your code example?
  820. # [20:25] <sicking> not that object literal obviously
  821. # [20:27] <Domenic_> nah, it was a perhaps overly-simplified example. the idea is that the TransformStream helper produces such objects. Perhaps a better constructor would be `new SyncTransformStream(function (in) { return in; })` or `new AsyncTransformStream(function (in, push, done) { push(in); push(in); done(); })` or something
  822. # [20:27] <Domenic_> this area is largely under-developed
  823. # [20:27] <Domenic_> as long as SyncTransformStream and AsyncTransformStream objects have { input, output } properties everything will work.
  824. # [20:28] <sicking> ok, let me ask the question this way then. If I have a ReadableStream, that I got from say XHR, can I pass that to Worker?
  825. # [20:28] <Domenic_> that goes outside my area of expertise... doesn't that have to be transferrable then?
  826. # [20:29] <sicking> transferrable or structured-clonable. For streams transferrable is indeed what you likely want
  827. # [20:29] <Domenic_> i assume that would have to apply to all objects it holds a reference too
  828. # [20:30] <sicking> otherwise you have to tee the stream
  829. # [20:30] <Domenic_> which would include arbitrary objects in general
  830. # [20:30] <Domenic_> since you can create a stream of arbitrary objects
  831. # [20:30] <sicking> this is a stream i got from an XHR
  832. # [20:30] <sicking> ...if that makes a difference
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  834. # [20:30] <Domenic_> ok
  835. # [20:31] <sicking> so can you transfer that to a worker?
  836. # [20:31] <Domenic_> so i think i see what you're getting at
  837. # [20:31] <Domenic_> you would like certain platform-created streams to only hold references to transferable objects
  838. # [20:31] <Domenic_> so that they could be tranfserred to workers
  839. # [20:31] <Domenic_> but putBack would defeat this
  840. # [20:31] * Quits: shannonmoeller (~shannonmo@nat.sierrabravo.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  841. # [20:31] <sicking> not neccesarily
  842. # [20:31] * Quits: niloy (~niloy@123.201.38.47) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  843. # [20:31] <sicking> and i don't think i just want it for "certain platform created streams"
  844. # [20:32] <Domenic_> well user-created streams can be streams of functions, which IIRC are not transferable
  845. # [20:32] <Domenic_> or streams where most of the time it's a string and then every 1000th element is a function
  846. # [20:32] <sicking> right
  847. # [20:33] <sicking> so my qustion remains. Do you think you should be able to take a stream that comes from an XHR and pass that to a worker?
  848. # [20:33] <sicking> *I* want that to be possible, but I realize that might not be something that everyone thinks is a priority
  849. # [20:34] <Domenic_> i don't know enough about use cases to answer decisively. my gut is that the worker itself should have input and output streams you can pipe through
  850. # [20:34] <Domenic_> it would be nice if piping arraybuffers or other transferables into a worker did a transfer instead of a copy
  851. # [20:34] <sicking> similarly, should you be able to take a ReadableStream and write it to disk using the filesystem API?
  852. # [20:35] <Domenic_> i feel like these are all use cases streams were meant to obsolete
  853. # [20:35] <Domenic_> you pipe a readable stream to the disk
  854. # [20:35] <Domenic_> you don't store the stream itself on the disk
  855. # [20:35] <Domenic_> you pipe a stream to a web worker
  856. # [20:35] <sicking> sure, s/write/pipe/
  857. # [20:36] <Domenic_> you don't transfer the stream itself to the web worker
  858. # [20:36] <Domenic_> ok
  859. # [20:36] <Domenic_> but in that case the disk is a writable stream
  860. # [20:36] <Domenic_> and you're just piping the readable stream to it
  861. # [20:36] <Domenic_> which operates through the well-known public API
  862. # [20:36] <sicking> well
  863. # [20:37] <sicking> if I get a readable stream from an XHR, and then pipe that to a writablestream that goes to disk, I don't think we want to hit the main thread for each chunk of data, right?
  864. # [20:37] <Domenic_> fair, but that's an optimization
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  867. # [20:37] <Domenic_> you can e.g. only make that optimization if nobody's done `diskStream.write = function (chunk) { console.log(chunk); oldDiskStreamWrite.apply(this, arguments); }`
  868. # [20:37] <sicking> is that an optimization that's possible if we always go through the public API?
  869. # [20:37] <Domenic_> the optimization would be skipping the public API where possible
  870. # [20:38] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  871. # [20:38] <sicking> i'm not sure if that's a good idea. I've never thought about it that way
  872. # [20:38] <sicking> seems like it potentially is a big performance hit
  873. # [20:38] <Domenic_> hmm. from what i understand many JS engine optimizations work that way
  874. # [20:39] <sicking> what happens if no-one had touched diskStream.write, but after 2 minutes they suddenly set diskStream.write?
  875. # [20:39] <Domenic_> like if you do Object.defineProperty(Array.prototype, "0", { set: function () { console.log("haha!"); }) you skip the fast-path on setting array elements in memory
  876. # [20:39] <Domenic_> hmm
  877. # [20:39] <sicking> should we detect that and reroute the traffic at that point?
  878. # [20:39] <Domenic_> we could spec pipe to cache the value of the write function at the time the pipe initiates
  879. # [20:40] <sicking> it's not impossible. But it likely will mean we won't do it for a long time
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  882. # [20:41] <sicking> i'm not sure what the right fix is. But I think it needs to be relatively easily possible for an implementation to not have to go through any thread that the data has been piped through at some point
  883. # [20:41] <Domenic_> i agree that should be a high high priority
  884. # [20:41] <Domenic_> probably the highest
  885. # [20:42] <sicking> cool
  886. # [20:42] <sicking> the way we do this in the DOM is that we don't operate through the public API at all times. Rather we usually operate through internal operations. Which I realize might break use cases that you have in mind
  887. # [20:43] <sicking> so not saying this as a recommendation, but rather as a "that's how we solve it elsewhere"
  888. # [20:44] <sicking> caching write (and any function it calls, if any?) might actually work too
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  890. # [20:46] <sicking> and I do think that we need to be able to hand off consuming a stream from one thread to another. If that means "pass to worker" or "pipe to worker" I'm not sure. But I don't know what "pipe to worker" would look like.
  891. # [20:46] <Domenic_> yeah, it is generally better to have fewer internal ops if possible, to allow users the same level of power and access as the platform. So if we can do that without hurting perf that's ideal. But obviously a large part of the point of streams is perf, so we have to be extra careful not to hurt ourselves in that way.
  892. # [20:46] <Domenic_> I am hoping pipe to worker looks like `myStream.pipeTo(myWorker.input)`
  893. # [20:46] <sicking> what's myworker.input?
  894. # [20:46] <Domenic_> a WritableStream
  895. # [20:47] <sicking> where does the data go?
  896. # [20:47] <Domenic_> which probably manifests as self....something... inside the worker
  897. # [20:47] <Domenic_> where ...something... is a readable stream
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  899. # [20:47] <sicking> so you can only pipe one stream to a worker ever?
  900. # [20:47] <Domenic_> node has this in its child process API, but granted that's processes, not heavyweight threads
  901. # [20:47] <Domenic_> nah, you can always multiplex
  902. # [20:47] <Domenic_> or we could do messageport-style ports
  903. # [20:48] <Domenic_> MessageChannel I mean. I suppose the fact that MessageChannel exists in the face of postMessage implies people want easy multiplexing
  904. # [20:49] <sicking> yeah, Gecko's lack of MessageChannel has been a thorn in yehuda's side
  905. # [20:51] <sicking> so would each messageport have a .input (ReadableStream) and a .output (WritableStream) property?
  906. # [20:54] <Domenic_> other way around, you write to inputs and and read from outputs, but yes
  907. # [20:54] <hober> "thorn in yehuda's side" was the name of *whose* high school band?
  908. # [20:54] <Ms2ger> Mine
  909. # [20:54] <sicking> hober: haha
  910. # [20:56] <sicking> Domenic_: seems like a somewhat clunky way to get a stream transferred to a worker. You first have to create a message channel, then transfer one of the ports to the worker, then pipe your readablestream into the other port's input
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  914. # [20:57] <Domenic_> sicking: is that how message channels work now? wow that is clunky
  915. # [20:58] <Domenic_> better APIs welcome certainly
  916. # [20:58] <sicking> Domenic_: only when you want to establish a new channel. If you already have a channel open then you can just postMessage
  917. # [20:59] <sicking> Domenic_: but if you have a channel open and you want to tell it "here, process this stream", then you need a way to do that. For other things we just transfer them
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  919. # [21:00] <sicking> Domenic_: but if you can't transfer streams then a simple postMessage doesn't work
  920. # [21:00] <Domenic_> ok, but if you already have the channel open, then it's just stream.pipeTo(channel.input). Seems similar effort to postMessage
  921. # [21:01] <sicking> Domenic_: but you can only do that once. If you later want to say "here, process this stream too" then you'd have to multiplex over the same channel
  922. # [21:01] <sicking> err.. over the same stream
  923. # [21:01] <Domenic_> ah, i see
  924. # [21:01] <Domenic_> i guess i am assuming you would want multiple streams just as often as you would want multiple channels
  925. # [21:02] <Domenic_> what do people open multiple channels for anyway?
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  929. # [21:05] <sicking> Domenic_: i'm not entirely sure. Ask Yehuda.
  930. # [21:05] <Domenic_> sicking: will do!
  931. # [21:05] <sicking> Domenic_: but here it's more "multiple work items" rather than "multiple channels"
  932. # [21:05] <sicking> i.e. a stream can represent a work item
  933. # [21:05] <sicking> anyhow, gotta join a call, sorry
  934. # [21:07] <Domenic_> np, i should probably do my day job
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  939. # [21:14] <Rahul21> hello everyone
  940. # [21:14] <Rahul21> is it possible to customize the <audio> tag, to set cue points in the seekbar?
  941. # [21:16] <TabAtkins> Nope.
  942. # [21:16] <Rahul21> TabAtkins: http://imgur.com/onhyHYR
  943. # [21:17] <Rahul21> TabAtkins: something like that, any alternatives to do it?
  944. # [21:17] <TabAtkins> Not with the <audio> tag, no.
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  957. # [21:33] <SimonSapin> Rahul21: what you can do is have an invisible <audio> element (without controls) and implement your own controls based on the JS API
  958. # [21:33] <SimonSapin> … maybe
  959. # [21:34] <SimonSapin> (I haven’t actually tried anything like this)
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  962. # [21:36] <Rahul21> SimonSapin: any demos or links would be very helpful
  963. # [21:36] <Rahul21> resources anything
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  965. # [21:37] <SimonSapin> I don’t any right now, sorry
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  1138. # [22:37] <tantek> ICYMI: http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/03/more-than-162000-legit-wordpress-sites-abused-in-powerful-ddos-attack/ (I remember months ago arguing with Hixie that the Pingback protocol was a DDOS attack vector using spoofed sources)
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  1233. # [23:57] <Hixie> anyone know that status of cross-origin font loading in the various browsers?
  1234. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> Firefox blocks, Webkit doesn't, Blink doesn't but is considering switching to blocking, IE I dunno.
  1235. # [23:59] <Hixie> thanks
  1236. # Session Close: Wed Mar 12 00:00:00 2014

The end :)