/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-03-12 / end

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  192. # [02:40] <GPHemsley> What's the current best practice for writing CSS tests?
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  198. # [03:00] <astearns> GPHemsley: reftests for anything testing display results. testharness for parsing
  199. # [03:01] <GPHemsley> URL(s)?
  200. # [03:01] <astearns> http://testthewebforward.org/docs/reftests.html
  201. # [03:02] <astearns> http://testthewebforward.org/docs/testharness-tutorial.html
  202. # [03:02] <astearns> and please send feedback for improving those pages
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  228. # [04:24] <MikeSmith> is anybody familiar with the background on http://web-platform.test/url/urltestdata.txt ?
  229. # [04:24] <MikeSmith> oops make that https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/blob/master/url/urltestdata.txt
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  233. # [04:25] <SamB> hmm, didn't someone recently say it came from webkit?
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  235. # [04:27] <MikeSmith> yeah jgraham did
  236. # [04:28] <MikeSmith> anyway it seems to be assuming a base URL of http://example.org/foo/bar
  237. # [04:28] <MikeSmith> which testing it a more just now, I guess it is, consistently
  238. # [04:29] <MikeSmith> I had thought in some cases it was not but I guess I was mistaken
  239. # [04:45] <SamB> well, it looks like I was right and the WHATWG logo itself is not copyrightable: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:WHATWG_logo_(Matthew_Raymond).png
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  303. # [09:41] <Ms2ger> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BiflGFdCcAERBtM.png:large
  304. # [09:44] <ondras> hurts.
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  357. # [13:51] <GPHemsley> astearns (or anyone else): What's the policy on using examples from the spec as tests?
  358. # [13:52] <Ms2ger> If the spec isn't under some stupid copyright, it's clearly allowed
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  360. # [13:55] <GPHemsley> "Copyright © 2014 W3C® (MIT, ERCIM, Keio, Beihang), All Rights Reserved. W3C liability, trademark and document use rules apply. "
  361. # [13:55] * GPHemsley is not clear where that falls
  362. # [13:56] <jgraham> Examples from the spec probably aren't good tests
  363. # [13:56] <jgraham> Or at least they are such small subsets of good testsuites that just rewriting something using the same feature for the case that the example covers is easier than worrying about it
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  366. # [14:01] <Ms2ger> GPHemsley, "dumb"
  367. # [14:01] <GPHemsley> :)
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  372. # [14:14] <smaug____> any comments on having deltaX/Y and/or offset in scroll events?
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  390. # [15:12] <darobin> GPHemsley: as indicated, examples are unlikely to be really good tests but they clearly fall under fair use so you're safe
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  392. # [15:13] <darobin> technically, I think that as software they would be under the software license anyway, which is OSI
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  394. # [15:26] <gsnedders> darobin: fall under fair use in some juristictions
  395. # [15:26] <gsnedders> (there exist juristictions with no concept of fair-use)
  396. # [15:27] <darobin> gsnedders: the W3C is judge of whether it's a problem or not, and it's clearly fair use under that jurisdiction :)
  397. # [15:28] <gsnedders> darobin: Assuming in all juristictions it is the W3C that has to file suit (I dunno if that's the case).
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  399. # [15:28] <darobin> gsnedders: I don't know of a single jurisdiction in which IP issues are brought forth by the state rather than the wronged party
  400. # [15:28] <darobin> but I'm no expert
  401. # [15:28] <darobin> it seems unlikely
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  403. # [15:29] <darobin> (even considering how fucked up IP legislation generally is)
  404. # [15:29] <gsnedders> darobin: copyright in the UK is a criminal matter, and certainly under English and Scottish law criminal cases aren't brought by the wronged party.
  405. # [15:29] <darobin> of course, you can claim (justly) that there is no guarantee that W3C will retain a sane policy forever — which is why the push for open licensing needs to continue
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  407. # [15:30] <darobin> gsnedders: aren't there degrees? I forget, there's a name for the doctrine deciding how cases are brought about by the state
  408. # [15:31] <darobin> that said, I'm fairly sure that code examples actually fall under the software license
  409. # [15:31] <gsnedders> darobin: All criminal cases are brought to court by the CPS in English, and Procurator Fiscal in Scotland. I don't have the time to look into what copyright cases are criminal and what are not.
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  414. # [15:43] <gsnedders> Okay, copyright is essentially just counterfeit goods and piracy.
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  416. # [15:44] <gsnedders> (in the criminal sense)
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  424. # [16:04] <jgraham> https://www.usenix.org/system/files/1403_02-08_mickens.pdf
  425. # [16:06] <MikeSmith> yeah that last third of so of that it pretty good
  426. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> he should have cut about half the jokes in their and it would have been a lot funnier
  427. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> maybe he got paid by the word
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  432. # [16:27] <gsnedders> In the web case, there's nothing gained by impersonating a client in a TLS connection, as the client isn't authenticated, right?
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  498. # [18:29] <Hixie> darobin: by and large, teh jurisdictions that have fair use are the same jurisdictions where fair use includes things required for interop, which would make all specs non-copyrightable :-P
  499. # [18:29] <Hixie> but don't tell jeff or rigo
  500. # [18:29] <darobin> Hixie: that is also my reading :)
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  502. # [18:31] <jgraham> Presumably at most the normative sections
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  504. # [18:31] <jgraham> So it would exclude examples
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  506. # [18:33] <darobin> jgraham: I can think of quite a few specs in which the examples make the only part that enables interop :)
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  508. # [18:35] <jgraham> "Your honor, this spec is a stinking pile of horse excrement and as-such doesn't actually allow interop without the examples" are words I want to hear in a courtroom drama
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  512. # [18:45] <JonathanNeal> How do we markup svgs for screen readers?
  513. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> smaug____: +1 to deltaX/Y on scroll events. (Rough blink position, I think.)
  514. # [18:46] <JonathanNeal> SteveF: http://blog.paciellogroup.com/2011/08/html5-accessibility-chops-interactive-image-example/ any developments since this?
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  517. # [18:48] <JonathanNeal> Is there a whatwg spec for this? I see http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG-access/
  518. # [18:48] <Hixie> no
  519. # [18:49] <JonathanNeal> Bummer. Sorry for going off-topic then.
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  521. # [18:53] <jcgregorio> Hixie: FYI https://codereview.chromium.org/178673002/ renames Path -> Path2D in canvas
  522. # [18:54] <Hixie> cool
  523. # [18:54] <jcgregorio> still hidden behind a flag though
  524. # [18:54] <Hixie> does it also make Path2D actually do what the spec says though? :-)
  525. # [18:54] <Hixie> unlike Safari's Path? :-)
  526. # [18:54] <jcgregorio> yes, it works like the spec says :-)
  527. # [18:58] <jcgregorio> doesn't implement addPathByStrokingPath or any of the add*Text methods
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  529. # [19:00] <Hixie> cabanier: did you paste the right URL? I don't see anything from roc on that thread.
  530. # [19:00] <Hixie> jcgregorio: cool
  531. # [19:00] * Joins: fishd_ (~darin@216.239.45.70)
  532. # [19:01] <Hixie> esprehn: btw the <dialog> focus stuff has landed in the spec. (not commenting on the blink-dev thread because every time i comment on it i seem to derail the intent-to-ship!)
  533. # [19:01] <esprehn> Hixie: I'll have to read it over, in the short term I'd rather we ship what we have and deal with the new stuff later
  534. # [19:01] <Hixie> yeah totally
  535. # [19:02] <esprehn> :)
  536. # [19:03] <cabanier> Hixie: sorry. copied the wrong line: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.dev.platform/5i8H-xKGtEg
  537. # [19:04] <cabanier> Hixie: I should update the wk implementation for Path
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  540. # [19:04] <cabanier> Hixie: my patch for mozilla should also match the spec (except for not adding any of the add* methods)
  541. # [19:06] <cabanier> emails crossed :-)
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  543. # [19:06] <Hixie> btw do you know what's the status of all the various canvas worker proposals?
  544. # [19:07] <Hixie> what's in the spec clearly isn't what people want, but i don't want to remove it then add something else later, that's twice the work of just adjusting it to be what people implement
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  548. # [19:13] <cabanier> Hixie: No, I don't. Last I saw was roc's proposal and it sounded like someone was going to prototype it
  549. # [19:13] <cabanier> Hixie: but I didn't see anything land. I think it's fine to leave it in
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  551. # [19:19] <Hixie> bummer
  552. # [19:19] <Hixie> we really need canvas in worker
  553. # [19:20] <Hixie> and i was really hoping someone would take care of it for me :-)
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  555. # [19:22] <cabanier> yeah
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  558. # [19:29] <SamB> Hixie: so what are you going to do, surround it with yellow tape and "dangerous bend" signs?
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  560. # [19:29] <Hixie> which? the canvas in worker thing?
  561. # [19:29] <SamB> yeah that
  562. # [19:32] <Hixie> heh
  563. # [19:32] <Hixie> i dunno what to do
  564. # [19:32] <Hixie> what i'd like is to find something the vendors want to implement
  565. # [19:32] <Hixie> zcorpan: ping https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24835
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  576. # [19:51] * SamB wonders if wikimedia commons will delete logo-xhr.svg if he uploads it ...
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  578. # [19:52] <SteveF> JonathanNeal: http://blog.paciellogroup.com/2013/12/using-aria-enhance-svg-accessibility/
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  580. # [19:53] <SteveF> JonathanNeal:bottom line SVG accessibility will continue to be flaky until SVG 2 is implemented
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  611. # [20:55] <SamB> you know what would be cool? if link targets would get highlighted when you just hover the link, not only after you follow them ...
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  613. # [20:55] <SamB> would save time for those links that only go down a line or a paragraph or so
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  618. # [21:03] <Hixie> interesting idea
  619. # [21:03] <Hixie> wonder how to do it
  620. # [21:04] <SamB> surely the CSS WG can figure out a way
  621. # [21:06] <Ms2ger> Ha
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  623. # [21:08] <JonathanNeal> SteveF: I wish I could have found this earlier, doh.
  624. # [21:08] <JonathanNeal> But it was good of me to test too.
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  626. # [21:12] <SamB> "I will *make* it legal" and all that, you know?
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  644. # [21:52] * llkittens is now known as llcombobreaker
  645. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> SamB: Yeah, that's possible. I'd probably like to hold off on that until we have customizable combinators, and then just let people do that.
  646. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> a /_target/ * { box-shadow: 2px 2px black; }
  647. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> Where /_target/ is defined in JS.
  648. # [21:54] <SamB> hmm.
  649. # [21:55] <SamB> that would certainly be a *useful* thing to be able to do
  650. # [21:55] <SamB> though, working out a decent API to do this efficiently will be fun I bet
  651. # [21:56] <SamB> in particular, so that the CSS engine doesn't have to be calling the JS constantly
  652. # [21:57] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  653. # [21:58] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's the rub.
  654. # [21:58] <TabAtkins> But I'm pretty sure it's solveable.
  655. # [21:58] <Hixie> // ftw
  656. # [21:58] <Hixie> though i didn't think of throwing JS into there
  657. # [21:59] <Hixie> that's an interesting idea
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  659. # [21:59] <TabAtkins> /foo/ is the new "named combinator" syntax, which means it's now possible to plug JS in reasonably.
  660. # [21:59] <SamB> presumably, you'd want the JS code to be able to provide information about what it uses to do the computation
  661. # [21:59] * llcombobreaker is now known as llsharks
  662. # [21:59] <TabAtkins> The CSSWG accepted us adding in @selector-alias; to Selectors, and to pursue JS-driven version as well.
  663. # [22:00] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
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  665. # [22:00] <TabAtkins> That's a customizable pseudo-class, not combinator, but the problem space is basically identical.
  666. # [22:00] <SamB> so that it'd only need to do it again when some of that information changed
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  668. # [22:00] <TabAtkins> Yup, there are various things we can do.
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  673. # [22:01] <TabAtkins> Probably it'll come down to some fairly simple ways to say "don't call me unless [something] changes", where [something] is expressible as a Selector or some way to filter Object.observe records.
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  678. # [22:09] <SamB> TabAtkins: so, like, a:hover[href] or so for this purpose?
  679. # [22:10] <TabAtkins> Yeah, something like that.
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  681. # [22:11] <SamB> hmm, though of course if something mutated the href attribute that'd also change things ...
  682. # [22:13] <SamB> or messed around with id attributes such that the target element was a different element ...
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  694. # [22:46] <BS-Harou> Can you think of any way to add feed from Opera 15+ extension to "Opera Mail" ?
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  707. # [23:10] <SimonSapin> When does "&" actually need to be escaped in attribute values? (Context: http://www.databasesandlife.com/multilinelabelwithclickablelinks/ )
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  710. # [23:14] <TabAtkins> Whenever it looks like an escape.
  711. # [23:14] <Hixie> SimonSapin: for your sanity, escape it always
  712. # [23:14] <TabAtkins> So yes, always.
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  714. # [23:14] <Hixie> SimonSapin: but yeah, in practice there's some complicated cases where it's ok not to escape it
  715. # [23:15] <TabAtkins> <div title="front&center"> == oops
  716. # [23:15] <Hixie> e.g. href="?a=b&c=d" should be safe and won't trigger an error iirc
  717. # [23:15] <Hixie> but you're better off just always escaping it
  718. # [23:15] <SimonSapin> ok, thanks
  719. # [23:15] <TabAtkins> <div title="front¢er">
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  721. # [23:15] <TabAtkins> Hixie: That's safe?
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  723. # [23:17] <Hixie> &center isn't safe, no, that one would be a conformance error
  724. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> Oh, it sounds like you said <a href="?front=foo&center=bar"> would be safe.
  725. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> Were those a/b/c/d not metavars?
  726. # [23:18] <Hixie> i meant what i wrote literally, right
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  728. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk. Gotta indicate that, it definitely looks like metavars. ^_^
  729. # [23:18] <Hixie> that's why it's just simpler to always escape
  730. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  731. # [23:18] <Hixie> i say what i mean and i mean what i say :-)
  732. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> The rule "it's safe to escape when you're not including anything that needs escaping".
  733. # [23:19] <TabAtkins> s/safe to escape/safe to not escape/
  734. # [23:19] <Hixie> more or less
  735. # [23:19] <Hixie> the problem is that the definition of "anything that needs escaping" requires knowing a list of several thousand words :-)
  736. # [23:20] <TabAtkins> Yup yup, which is why it's a terrible rule.
  737. # [23:21] <Hixie> the reason for the rule is to avoid spurious error messages on pages that are fine in practice
  738. # [23:22] <Hixie> (it still catches cases that are likely broken because you aren't allowed to omit the semicolon in attributes)
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The end :)