/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-03-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Mar 28 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  31. # [00:30] <MikeSmith> https://twitter.com/pcwalton/status/449299846873108480 👈 pretty cool
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  74. # [01:40] <Hixie> uh... was whoever is behind https://speakerdeck.com/dherman/status-report-es6-modules planning on talking to us about changing HTML any time soon?
  75. # [01:40] <Hixie> cos <module> is a non-starter...
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  77. # [01:41] <TabAtkins> That would be David Herman.
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  81. # [01:42] <TabAtkins> And I've talked to him about this before - he says that there will definitely be a transitional <script type="whatever/module"> as well, with the same effect.
  82. # [01:43] <Hixie> so... why not just end with that
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  84. # [01:43] <Hixie> <module> would mean major parser changes, and for something this security-sensitive, that would be a vewy vwey scawy
  85. # [01:44] <Hixie> anyway, make sure he posts to the whatwg list sooner rather than later (like, last october would be a good time)
  86. # [01:44] <Hixie> in unrelated news, why is Map not yet supported on chrome stable
  87. # [01:45] <TabAtkins> It's currently behind a flag.
  88. # [01:45] <Hixie> isn't Map pretty old hat by now?
  89. # [01:45] <Hixie> i remember people talking about it like a year ago
  90. # [01:45] <TabAtkins> And V8 was slow to support Map/Set.
  91. # [01:45] * Hixie wonders what to use instead
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  93. # [01:45] <zewt> maps are bleeding edge tech
  94. # [01:45] <TabAtkins> Are you making something for others to consume?
  95. # [01:45] <TabAtkins> Or just yourself/
  96. # [01:46] <Hixie> others
  97. # [01:46] * xiinotulp is now known as plutoniix
  98. # [01:46] <TabAtkins> Ah, then you're screwed.
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  100. # [01:49] <Hixie> bummo
  101. # [01:49] <Hixie> i guess i'll shim it with a search, for now
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  104. # [01:51] <TabAtkins> Or create a method for hashcoding your objects (generating a string that will uniquely and stably identify an object).
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  106. # [01:54] <gsnedders> Hixie: V8 is instantly concervative with unflagging stuff
  107. # [01:54] <Hixie> well i've got all this code that expects set and get methods, so... :-)
  108. # [01:54] <Hixie> "instantly concervative"? i don't think that means anything.
  109. # [01:54] <TabAtkins> "insanely conservative"
  110. # [01:54] <Hixie> oh.
  111. # [01:54] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Still do hashcoding. Just make get/set use those to store/retrieve your stuff from a normal object with string keys.
  112. # [01:55] <Hixie> how do i hash an element?
  113. # [01:55] <Hixie> i mean i can add a fake ID on it or something
  114. # [01:55] <Hixie> but that's lame
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  116. # [01:55] <TabAtkins> That's up to you. Figure out some way to generate a string that'll stably identify the object, so that if you're handed the same object again later, you'll generate the same hashcode.
  117. # [01:55] <TabAtkins> Adding expandos to an Element works, for example.
  118. # [01:56] <Hixie> i don't see any way to do that that doesn't involve mutating the node
  119. # [01:56] <Hixie> and mutating the node isn't hashing the node, it's just hanging an ID on it
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  121. # [01:56] <TabAtkins> Same deal, really.
  122. # [01:57] <TabAtkins> It's not ideal, but it accomplishes your goal. Shrug.
  123. # [01:57] <Hixie> so does just walking a list :-)
  124. # [01:57] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but walking a list is linear-time, while hashcoding (/mutating) is constant-time.
  125. # [01:58] <TabAtkins> That might not be important to you.
  126. # [01:58] <Hixie> yeah in this case i'm hashing touch targets, so it's not a big deal
  127. # [01:58] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk. Yeah, just search a list then.
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  134. # [02:01] <Hixie> my god touch event latency on android chrome is bad
  135. # [02:01] <zewt> does it do the horrible forced-delay-after-every-touch thing
  136. # [02:02] <zewt> ios does that, and i've spent so much time jumping hoops basically reimplementing click to get around it
  137. # [02:02] <Hixie> no, i've disabled that already
  138. # [02:02] <zewt> ios safari doesn't let you, heh
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  326. # [12:32] <annevk> mathiasbynens: trying to sort out your bug
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  328. # [12:32] <annevk> mathiasbynens: oops, https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24104
  329. # [12:33] <annevk> lone surrogates, we meet again
  330. # [12:37] <Ms2ger> You know, all this kerfuffle about brendan... It's the string encoding we should be reviling him for
  331. # [12:40] <mathiasbynens> Ms2ger++
  332. # [12:43] <mathiasbynens> only surrogates should be allowed to pair!
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  340. # [13:03] <annevk> oh my
  341. # [13:03] <jgraham> Lions and tigers and bears?
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  345. # [13:04] <jgraham> annevk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Etx-nDCZzLo
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  378. # [14:07] <gsnedders> I remember a diagram somewhere of the web stack going all the way down to the Unicode layer. Not the one in the complete spec, but one prettier. Any ideas?
  379. # [14:08] <gsnedders> Googling quickly juts shows stuff going down to the HTML layer and not below.
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  383. # [14:18] <zcorpan> annevk: oh, you asked a different Simon, heh
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  386. # [14:24] <zcorpan> gsnedders: https://hsivonen.fi/web-stack/ ?
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  388. # [14:26] <gsnedders> zcorpan: yeah, thanks
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  393. # [14:34] <zcorpan> wonder what happened to JD
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  395. # [14:35] <annevk> JD?
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  398. # [14:49] <zcorpan> jd/adobe
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  400. # [14:50] <zcorpan> web-stack brought me back to 2009 for a moment
  401. # [14:59] <annevk> Flash is gonna take over the world any day
  402. # [14:59] <annevk> now
  403. # [15:11] <gsnedders> zcorpan: On the other hand, best diagram I can think of :(I
  404. # [15:11] <gsnedders> * :(
  405. # [15:11] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Any chance of putting https://hsivonen.fi/web-stack/ under a license allowing it be used elsewhere?
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  430. # [16:24] <annevk> SimonSapin: btw, did you guys discuss what to do with surrogates in servo for the encoders?
  431. # [16:24] <annevk> SimonSapin: I guess I basically want you to look at that bug :p
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  433. # [16:24] <SimonSapin> which bug?
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  436. # [16:25] <gsnedders> "that" one.
  437. # [16:25] <SimonSapin> I don’t know of a specific discussion, but Rust’s char explicitly type disallows surrogates
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  439. # [16:26] <SimonSapin> (The str type does by being UTF-8.)
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  444. # [16:28] <jgraham> Ms2ger started a UCS2 branch I think?
  445. # [16:28] <SimonSapin> As to Servo when dealing with JS strings, I’m pretty sure we haven’t discussed it
  446. # [16:28] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  447. # [16:29] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: when converting from UCS2, unpaired surrogates are transformed into U+FFFD by the UTF-16 decoder, right?
  448. # [16:29] <Ms2ger> Dunno
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  450. # [16:29] <annevk> SimonSapin: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24104
  451. # [16:29] <Ms2ger> You did the encodings stuff :)
  452. # [16:29] <SimonSapin> there’s std::str::from_utf16_lossy doing this now, but it’s fairly new
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  454. # [16:30] <SimonSapin> annevk: let me finish this and I’ll look at encodings next
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  463. # [16:45] <annevk> Mah
  464. # [16:45] <annevk> Unicode does not seem to say much on the matter, they don't really define these as algorithms
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  466. # [16:47] <annevk> Oh actually, http://www.unicode.org/faq/utf_bom.html#gen2 seems pretty clear
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  473. # [17:02] <SimonSapin> seems like the only sane answer
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  475. # [17:08] <annevk> Well, it would mean Chrome has to change their implementation
  476. # [17:08] <annevk> While they do it for Unicode, they don't for windows-1252
  477. # [17:09] <SimonSapin> don’t do what?
  478. # [17:09] <jgraham> Anyone know how fast marquee is supposed to be?
  479. # [17:09] <jgraham> I can't tell if it's specified
  480. # [17:09] <annevk> SimonSapin: see my comment in that bug
  481. # [17:10] <jgraham> In particular if you have something like <marquee id="test2" loop="2" width="100">Whatever</marquee> can you tell how long it will take to run?
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  486. # [17:12] <annevk> I wish there was a better term for Unicode scalar value
  487. # [17:13] <annevk> "unicode point" and "code point" anyone?
  488. # [17:13] <SimonSapin> Go back in time and un-invent UTF-16. Done.
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  490. # [17:15] <jgraham> Hmm it looks like it might be 6px / 85ms
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  493. # [17:16] <annevk> SimonSapin: to uninvent utf-16, one has to first uninvent Unicode
  494. # [17:17] <Ms2ger> And the universe?
  495. # [17:17] <annevk> Yes, as well as the other ones that are copying us
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  507. # [17:33] <annevk> I guess I'll update the specification and start using "Unicode scalar value", so terrible
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  509. # [17:34] <SimonSapin> annevk: call it "rune"?
  510. # [17:34] <SimonSapin> :)
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  542. # [18:17] <smaug____> jgraham: oh, do you happen to know if we could kill marquee
  543. # [18:18] <smaug____> hmm, 0.3% says googles statistics
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  550. # [18:23] <jgraham> smaug____: Yeah I always heard it was one of those "Big in Japan" things. Although in this case "Japan" was actually China
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  565. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> smaug____: We determined in Blink that we couldn't kill <marquee>, but we did successfully kill the CSS Marquee stuff.
  566. # [18:54] <Ms2ger> You implemented the css marquee stuff?
  567. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> "implemented", yeah.
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  576. # [19:08] <annevk> SimonSapin: is that what Rust calls it now?
  577. # [19:09] <annevk> SimonSapin: or are you trying to proxy your bikeshed?
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  580. # [19:11] <TabAtkins> annevk: I think SimonSapin was making up a name off the top of his head.
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  582. # [19:14] <annevk> TabAtkins: there's an ongoing bikeshed for Rust about how to rename char
  583. # [19:14] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: nope http://golang.org/pkg/builtin/#rune
  584. # [19:14] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk.
  585. # [19:15] <TabAtkins> So we get char, glyph, and rune?
  586. # [19:15] <TabAtkins> +code point and code unit
  587. # [19:16] <annevk> Unicode scalar value is so full of fail
  588. # [19:16] <annevk> nobody uses it because it's too long
  589. # [19:16] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  590. # [19:16] <TabAtkins> I'm just making sure of the terms we have in use. No negative connotation intended.
  591. # [19:17] <annevk> so Hixie uses "character" to mean code point and "Unicode character" to mean "Unicode scalar value" in HTML
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  597. # [19:26] <annevk> we could adopt that across the board
  598. # [19:27] <annevk> is CSS aligned with that?
  599. # [19:27] <SimonSapin> CSS Syntax uses "code point"
  600. # [19:27] <SimonSapin> we avoided "character" because CSS Text uses that for "grapheme cluster"
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  602. # [19:29] <TabAtkins> Yeah, "character" meaning "grapheme cluster" seems closer to what people mean in practice when they use the word casually.
  603. # [19:29] <TabAtkins> á is a character, regardless of whether it's composed or not.
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  605. # [19:30] <SimonSapin> yeah, this is why I’m in favor of renaming Rust’s "char" type. It’s a Unicode scalar value, that name is just awful. So one idea was to use "rune" instead.
  606. # [19:31] <jgraham> Uh, yeah rune seems more awful
  607. # [19:32] <jgraham> A rune is a letter from a specific alphabet
  608. # [19:33] <jgraham> It would be like calling it "ideogram" or something
  609. # [19:35] <jsbell> rune also sounds more like glyph which is even more "the thing you see" than character.
  610. # [19:35] <jgraham> Yeah I think the precise meaning of rune is wrong and the vauge notion people have of rune is misleading
  611. # [19:36] <jgraham> It seems like a terrible choice
  612. # [19:36] * gsnedders returns from the world of dissertation land, wishing he hadn't been ill and hadn't as a result run out of time :(
  613. # [19:37] <gsnedders> jgraham: *a specific type of alphabet
  614. # [19:37] <gsnedders> There are multiple runic scripts!
  615. # [19:38] <jgraham> Obviously we should rename it to "Carakan", which we could abbreviate "cara" so we'd have "char" and "cara"
  616. # [19:38] <jgraham> Which should maximise confusion :)
  617. # [19:39] <gsnedders> Bah, Carakan (as a word) is only five letters! :P
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  725. # [22:41] <Hixie> i used character like i did in HTML because i have no use for "grapheme cluster" in HTML, and it seemed like it would be confusing to not use the word "character" at all.
  726. # [22:41] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  727. # [22:41] <Hixie> (i mean, e.g., calling them "Unicode code point encodings" is confusing as heck)
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  729. # [22:42] <Hixie> (and people understand "space characters" better than "space code points" or "space scalar values")
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  736. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Do the runic languages actually use an alphabet?
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  740. # [23:12] * smaug____ needs to join #rust and propose s/rune/tengwa/
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  742. # [23:13] <TabAtkins> aksara, clearly. http://www.unicode.org/glossary/#aksara
  743. # [23:13] * Joins: mitsuhiko (~mitsuhiko@ubuntu/member/mitsuhiko)
  744. # [23:14] <tantek> Hixie, but people love new techno-jargon ;)
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  746. # [23:15] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: (As opposed to an abjad or something.)
  747. # [23:15] <Hixie> "love" :-)
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  751. # [23:23] <Hixie> tantek: we only just got ourselves back to "URL" :-P
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  760. # [23:34] <SamB> still can has URN, though, right?
  761. # [23:34] <SamB> for those hard-to-resolve URLs
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  772. # [23:48] <tantek> Hixie I know!
  773. # [23:48] <tantek> I had to debate myself and then argue with people over Twitter about it
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  779. # Session Close: Sat Mar 29 00:00:00 2014

The end :)