/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-03-31 / end

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  155. # [08:53] <ondras> so I understand that the attributeChanged callback is executed only when the custom element's own attribute chanegs
  156. # [08:53] <ondras> *changes
  157. # [08:53] <ondras> what if my custom element need to know when its size changes?
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  163. # [09:19] <cdan> good morning
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  191. # [11:03] <zcorpan> ondras: size as in rendered size?
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  193. # [11:13] <ondras> zcorpan: yes
  194. # [11:13] <ondras> zcorpan: my use case is an interactive map
  195. # [11:13] <ondras> zcorpan: the underlying JS api needs to be notified when the viewport size changes
  196. # [11:13] <zcorpan> ondras: use window.onresize
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  198. # [11:15] <ondras> zcorpan: what if the size of my element changes due to interaction with other elements in page?
  199. # [11:16] <zcorpan> ondras: is the map you want to be notified about a <canvas>?
  200. # [11:16] <ondras> zcorpan: no, but it behaves similarly
  201. # [11:16] <ondras> zcorpan: think of a google maps api
  202. # [11:16] <ondras> zcorpan: so its container might have width:50%, but can be situated within other element whose size might change independently...
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  209. # [11:34] <ondras> 11:15 < ondras> zcorpan: no, but it behaves similarly
  210. # [11:34] <ondras> 11:15 < ondras> zcorpan: think of a google maps api
  211. # [11:34] <ondras> 11:15 < ondras> zcorpan: so its container might have width:50%, but can be situated within other element whose size might change independently...
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  213. # [11:34] <zcorpan> ondras: can you point to a page that does that?
  214. # [11:34] <zcorpan> ondras: i can think of ways to hack around it, e.g. use an iframe and onresize. or if you control the other things whose size might change, let them send a notification when they change their size
  215. # [11:35] <zcorpan> (sorry for dropping off, i'm on the train)
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  217. # [11:37] <ondras> zcorpan: well have a look at http://api4.mapy.cz/
  218. # [11:37] <ondras> zcorpan: I want to implement the map as a custom element
  219. # [11:37] <ondras> zcorpan: but I have no explicit control on its size and placement
  220. # [11:38] <ondras> zcorpan: so a user might want to put it in a sidebar with variable width or so
  221. # [11:38] <ondras> zcorpan: and the underlying mapping JS absolutely needs to know when its "viewport" size changes
  222. # [11:40] <zcorpan> ondras: ok, thanks
  223. # [11:40] * zcorpan 101 switching trains
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  228. # [12:04] <zcorpan> ondras: it's not clear to me if this is something that's specific to custom elements or if we should provide it for elements in general
  229. # [12:05] <ondras> zcorpan: agreed.
  230. # [12:05] <zcorpan> ondras: also, is it OK if it's just an event that's queued after the fact, or does the JS need to be notified before the new layout actually happens?
  231. # [12:05] <ondras> zcorpan: anyway, without a custom element, the situation is more explicit
  232. # [12:06] <ondras> zcorpan: people are used to call JS API "syncSize" or so when situation changes
  233. # [12:06] <ondras> but when the map becomes a declarative element
  234. # [12:06] <ondras> as in <our-map x=... y=... />
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  236. # [12:06] <zcorpan> yeah
  237. # [12:06] <ondras> people might want to evade any further JS interaction at all
  238. # [12:06] <ondras> zcorpan: queued after the fact, it can be delayed
  239. # [12:07] <ondras> zcorpan: the JS API needs to fetch additional map tiles to fill in the viewport as it resizes
  240. # [12:07] <zcorpan> ok
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  242. # [12:09] <zcorpan> ondras: i'd say bring up the use case to the custom element people. if it's something that should work for ordinary elements also then [cssom-view] on www-style
  243. # [12:10] <ondras> zcorpan: okay, can you please point me to some directions? is this irc channel not sufficient?
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  250. # [12:39] <zcorpan> ondras: see "Participate" at the top of http://w3c.github.io/webcomponents/spec/custom/
  251. # [12:42] <ondras> okay, thanks
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  258. # [13:08] <smaug____> which one is the current promise spec
  259. # [13:09] <smaug____> maybe http://promises-aplus.github.io/promises-spec/ ?
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  261. # [13:12] <smaug____> but that doesn't define clearly how it all integrates with the event loop
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  277. # [14:12] <IZh> benschwarz: Hi.
  278. # [14:14] <zcorpan> smaug____: https://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html maybe?
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  282. # [14:30] <IZh> Is it possible to get PDF-version of HTML5? :-)
  283. # [14:31] * Joins: davve (~user@83.218.67.123)
  284. # [14:31] <IZh> I want to read it from my smartphone in offline. But I can't find actual offline-version or PDF.
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  293. # [14:46] <jorendorff> promises spec will be better in a month, i'm told
  294. # [14:46] <jorendorff> kind of a disaster right now
  295. # [14:49] <zcorpan> IZh: there was for a while but is no longer because it took too much resources on the server or something. ask Hixie if you want to set up a web service he can run in the build process
  296. # [14:49] <odinho_> IZh: There was, -- but the generators kept crashing when it was created. This was way back though, I haven't had an urge to read spec any other place than web these days.
  297. # [14:50] * odinho_ is now known as odinho
  298. # [14:52] <zcorpan> also see https://hsivonen.fi/printing-wa10/ (this was earlier still)
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  300. # [14:53] <IZh> zcorpan: Thanks. I will ask him.
  301. # [14:55] <IZh> odinho: I have most of the spare time on the road in train or subway where there is no Internet. :-) I tried to use single-page from W3C but it is too heavy for mobile devices. And it has an annoying banner on the left and more annoying button on top of the text.
  302. # [14:56] <IZh> Also I tried to download developers.whatwg.org and tried to build it. It doesn't work offline.
  303. # [14:57] * Quits: rcombs (~rcombs@rcombs.me) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  304. # [14:57] <jgraham> IZh: You should try getting Hixie to add offline support for the multipage spec :)
  305. # [14:58] <IZh> jgraham: I think, yes. :-)
  306. # [14:58] <IZh> Hixie: Hi.
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  308. # [14:58] <jgraham> IZh: (it is before 6am Hixie time)
  309. # [14:59] <IZh> By the way, http://archive.germanforblack.com/articles/html5-for-web-developers states: It features find-as-you-type search, offline access, beautiful typography, technical references pulled inline, and alternate styles for handheld devices or low resolution displays.
  310. # [15:00] <IZh> Where is promised offline access? ;-)
  311. # [15:00] <jgraham> That version, which isn't the whole spec, does seem to have offline access
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  313. # [15:01] <IZh> jgraham: I can't find it.
  314. # [15:01] <IZh> I mean, how to make it work offline?
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  316. # [15:02] <jgraham> IZh: At least on Desktop Firefox it does an offline sync when you first load it and then transparently keeps working when you put the browser in offline mode
  317. # [15:02] <jgraham> YOu don't have to "do" anything
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  319. # [15:03] <IZh> jgraham: Ahh... That offline... I used wget -r -p ;-)
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  321. # [15:05] <jgraham> Yeah, the one targeted at people who, when confronted with a problem, don't think "I know, I'll use wget" ;)
  322. # [15:07] <IZh> I thought about "total offline" where I will have static version on my disk, and could open it by any local browser.
  323. # [15:09] <sangwhan> does anyone know if http://test.csswg.org/harness/suite/css-multicol-1_dev is still in use? tests are 404
  324. # [15:10] <IZh> By the way, it there any document describing difference between W3C's and WHATWG's HTML5?
  325. # [15:10] <sangwhan> IZh: http://www.w3.org/html/landscape/
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  327. # [15:12] <zcorpan> sangwhan: http://hg.csswg.org/test/file/ccd08e6ef255/approved/css3-multicol/src ?
  328. # [15:12] <IZh> sangwhan: Thank you. Both standards says that there is no such document. :-)
  329. # [15:13] <zcorpan> there is no spoon
  330. # [15:13] <sangwhan> zcorpan: thanks, so the suite i was looking at earlier is dead now?
  331. # [15:13] * sangwhan knows nothing about css-wg or processes there, it seems quite different from the other groups
  332. # [15:13] <zcorpan> sangwhan: no idea. ask in #css or #testing on irc.w3.org
  333. # [15:14] <sangwhan> zcorpan: ok, gotcha
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  336. # [15:17] <Ms2ger> sangwhan, the csswg likes Process. A lot.
  337. # [15:18] <sangwhan> Ms2ger: process with a capital P?
  338. # [15:19] <Ms2ger> Yep
  339. # [15:20] * WolfieZero|Away is now known as WolfieZero
  340. # [15:21] <jgraham> Although not with a capital PR, sadly
  341. # [15:21] <zcorpan> PROcess
  342. # [15:21] <zcorpan> for the pros
  343. # [15:23] <jgraham> You have to have a recognised qualification in bureaucracy to get entry?
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  377. # [17:24] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  433. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> Replacing lone surrogates with U+FFFD wouldn't corrupt much, if any, I'd think.
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  436. # [18:52] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: There is no way to MQ based on device pixels directly. 'resolution' is based on the device-pixel-to-px ratio, if that's helpful.
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  439. # [18:56] * WolfieZero is now known as WolfieZero|Away
  440. # [18:58] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: But then I have the fact there's no image-resolution supported, right? :(
  441. # [18:58] <TabAtkins> Yes. What are you trying to do?
  442. # [18:58] <gsnedders> Just have a header image that's high quality, and not always loading the full DPI one
  443. # [18:58] <gsnedders> s/DPI/resolution/
  444. # [18:58] <gsnedders> bleh
  445. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> In CSS or HTML?
  446. # [18:59] * WolfieZero|Away is now known as WolfieZero
  447. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> Sounds like CSS.
  448. # [18:59] <gsnedders> CSS really.
  449. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> Use -webkit-image-set().
  450. # [18:59] <gsnedders> What about other browsers? :(
  451. # [18:59] * WolfieZero is now known as WolfieZero|Away
  452. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> File bugs for them to implement image-set(). It's in Images 4.
  453. # [19:00] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-37-201-122-69.unitymediagroup.de) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  454. # [19:01] <gsnedders> Does image-set not still render stuff at the CSS 96dpi-apparent?
  455. # [19:01] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-37-201-122-69.unitymediagroup.de)
  456. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> I don't know what you're asking. But it believes you when you tell it what resolution the image is, and renders appropriately.
  457. # [19:01] <wilhelm> I didn't see your original question, but *-device-pixel-ratio plus a background-size property usually gets the job done.
  458. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> Yeah, manual sizing works too. Browsers'll downscale the high-DPI image to the size you specify, which is basically the same thing.
  459. # [19:03] * gsnedders wonders if he even has any high DPI hardware to test this on…
  460. # [19:03] <gsnedders> :P
  461. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> I recommend not doing anything at all if you don't have the ability to test it.
  462. # [19:05] <gsnedders> Oh, my tablet does. Okay.
  463. # [19:05] <Hixie> sangwhan: note that that landscape document is woefully incomplete (e.g. misses all the editorial changes, and a number of (unintentional?) normative changes
  464. # [19:05] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Oh, I can borrow stuff to test, just slower turn-around town. :)
  465. # [19:05] * SamB wonders how much overlap there is between "high resolution hardware" and (say) "200% zoom"
  466. # [19:05] * Quits: WolfieZero|Away (~WolfieZer@neils-wireless.manor.fubra.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  467. # [19:05] <gsnedders> s/town/time/
  468. # [19:05] <gsnedders> What am I even thinking.
  469. # [19:05] <wilhelm> gsnedders: I use manual sizing and queries on the banner with a person on it here: https://kreftforeningen.no/
  470. # [19:05] <sangwhan> Hixie: it's better than nothing...
  471. # [19:05] <TabAtkins> SamB: Ideally, a 2x device and a 1x device on 200% zoom should be treated identically by all the things that care about resolution.
  472. # [19:05] <SamB> TabAtkins: exactly my thoughts
  473. # [19:05] <Hixie> sangwhan: sure, just making sure people don't have the wrong expectations :-)
  474. # [19:06] <sangwhan> Hixie: point
  475. # [19:07] <wilhelm> gsnedders: (Actually, on that banner I have a ton of different images. I have a 1-column, 2-column and 3-column version of the image, depending on your screen width. Double that for 1x and 2x resolution of each. And then there's 7 different people it rotates between. :D )
  476. # [19:09] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  477. # [19:09] <Hixie> i really wish i could work out what people are doing ot accidentially file copy-and-paste content as bugs
  478. # [19:12] <SamB> against html?
  479. # [19:12] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-37-201-122-69.unitymediagroup.de)
  480. # [19:12] <SamB> perhaps they use devices on which it is easy to accidentally paste?
  481. # [19:13] <TabAtkins> I dont' think those devices exist.
  482. # [19:13] <SamB> so you don't think pocket-drag-and-drop is likely?
  483. # [19:14] <TabAtkins> I don't, no. ^_^
  484. # [19:14] * Joins: shannonmoeller (~shannonmo@pool-108-17-8-225.bflony.fios.verizon.net)
  485. # [19:14] <gsnedders> wilhelm: Well ooooh, aren't you fancy. :P
  486. # [19:14] <wilhelm> Unix middle click? (c:
  487. # [19:15] <SamB> Hixie: do you have user-agent data?
  488. # [19:15] <wilhelm> gsnedders: Responsive photography is fun, mmkay.
  489. # [19:15] <SamB> I guess that goes into the bugs, doesn't it
  490. # [19:15] <gsnedders> wilhelm: :)
  491. # [19:16] <gsnedders> I know I'm not going to get this done in the week I have before exam panic time :(
  492. # [19:16] <wilhelm> You're procastina-hacking?
  493. # [19:17] <gsnedders> Nah, I put aside this week to do stuff *I* want to do and don't have external deadlines for.
  494. # [19:17] <Hixie> SamB: yeah
  495. # [19:17] <gsnedders> Except dealing with taxes. Have external deadline for that.
  496. # [19:17] <gsnedders> And I have to file taxes *on paper*. Ergh.
  497. # [19:18] <gsnedders> Pretty sure that's cruel or unusual punishment.
  498. # [19:18] * Quits: tj_vantoll (~Adium@2601:4:1400:5f5:cd3:f327:d552:9a52) (Quit: Leaving.)
  499. # [19:18] <wilhelm> Is your government from the past?
  500. # [19:19] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  501. # [19:19] <gsnedders> It can be done: a) online (except if 1, 2, or 3 apply); b) using third-party commerical software; c) on paper.
  502. # [19:19] <gsnedders> I refuse to pay for the third-party software, and I'm in one of the categories forbidden from online, so…
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  509. # [19:27] <Hixie> hey, i found a bug in the tokeniser tests
  510. # [19:28] <Hixie> "Bad named entity: Abreve without a semi-colon" doesn't have a "ParserError"
  511. # [19:28] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@2a00:801:e0:30:4433:85e6:e582:9bfb)
  512. # [19:29] <gsnedders> file a bug
  513. # [19:29] <gsnedders> To quote your normal retort :)
  514. # [19:30] <Hixie> i have a patch
  515. # [19:30] <Hixie> what do i do with it?
  516. # [19:31] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.114.217.177)
  517. # [19:31] <Hixie> (also, are none of you actually checking the parser errors in the tokeniser tests? how was this not caught earlier?)
  518. # [19:31] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: CSSOM doesn’t say anything about surrogate code point. Does that mean they’re valid in any input and end up untouched in selectors, property values, etc?
  519. # [19:31] <gsnedders> The same as you did for the last contribution you made to html5lib! Create a pull request on it.
  520. # [19:31] <gsnedders> Hixie: html5lib definitely doesn't check parse errors, I think Nolan's Obj-C parser does, but I don't know if he uses the tokenizer tests
  521. # [19:31] * Joins: Areks_home (~Areks@128-72-14-14.broadband.corbina.ru)
  522. # [19:32] <gsnedders> The tokenizer tests are somewhat dead, everybody just uses the tree-construction tests.
  523. # [19:32] <Hixie> gsnedders: do the tree-construction tests subsume all the tokeniser tests?
  524. # [19:32] <Hixie> (would be good to put that in the README if it's true)
  525. # [19:32] <gsnedders> Not quite. jgraham had a programmatic conversion to tree constructor tests which I believe is public somewhere.
  526. # [19:32] <Hixie> (how the heck do i do a pull thingy. the google isn't helping me.)
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  529. # [19:33] <Hixie> well right now my tokeniser is just entity parsing, so i'll keep using them for now and see how bad they are
  530. # [19:33] <Hixie> if they're actually useless, i'll propose killing them entirely.
  531. # [19:34] <jgraham> They shouldn't be useless
  532. # [19:34] <gsnedders> There's also the difficulty that different impls rely on different amounts of feedback from the tree constructor
  533. # [19:34] <Hixie> git commit, git push?
  534. # [19:34] <gsnedders> (i.e., some make transitions defined in the tree construction in the tokenizer)
  535. # [19:35] <gsnedders> Hixie: Yeah, then go onto GH and create a PR.
  536. # [19:35] <Hixie> yeah i never really understood why we had tokeniser tests at all, but since we have them i figured i'd use them
  537. # [19:35] <jgraham> Hixie: On a branch
  538. # [19:35] <gsnedders> Hixie: but if jgraham's around he can help
  539. # [19:35] <gsnedders> Because I need to go :)
  540. # [19:35] <jgraham> I'm not, really
  541. # [19:35] <Hixie> i miss the good old days where submitting a patch was just svn diff | email
  542. # [19:35] * jgraham doesn't :p
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  544. # [19:36] <Hixie> jesus, you have to git add first
  545. # [19:36] <jgraham> (this is a good thing)
  546. # [19:36] <Hixie> if you say so
  547. # [19:36] <Hixie> what username is git push asking me for?
  548. # [19:37] <jgraham> You need to set up ssh keys for github
  549. # [19:38] <Hixie> to _submit a patch_ i need an _ssh key_?!
  550. # [19:38] * Quits: benvie (~bbenvie@204.28.118.69) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  551. # [19:38] <jgraham> Yes
  552. # [19:38] <Hixie> ok forget that
  553. # [19:38] <Hixie> i'll just send gsnedders a diff when i'm done
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  557. # [19:39] <Ms2ger> Hixie, I think you can push over https with your password
  558. # [19:40] <SamB> Hixie: yes, it'd be better if you could just submit merge requests by email like you used to be able to do with bzr
  559. # [19:41] <Hixie> hm, actually, this whole patch is wrong anyway. turns out "&Abreve" alone isn't a parse error, since it's not a valid entity and there's no trailing semicolon
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  561. # [19:41] <SamB> what is a "parse error"
  562. # [19:41] * Joins: padam (~padam@202.70.65.6)
  563. # [19:43] <Hixie> SamB: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#parse-error
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  565. # [19:43] <SamB> I guess I should have checked for that before saying that
  566. # [19:45] <gsnedders> Hixie: I think html5lib-python tests *number* of parse errors (but not order), so I think the number /should/ be right
  567. # [19:45] <Hixie> yeah, i just misread the test
  568. # [19:45] <Hixie> my implementation had a big "XXX need to only fire parse error in certain cases" thing where my bug was
  569. # [19:46] <Hixie> i didn't expect that to be one of the first things i'd run into
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  571. # [19:46] <SamB> FR: source code should be in color
  572. # [19:46] <SamB> so it could be a big *red* XXX
  573. # [19:47] <gsnedders> As the top of source shows, Hixie is a fan of text-mode
  574. # [19:47] <SamB> hmm, actually that's not a very good joke, since you can actually do that ...
  575. # [19:47] <Hixie> actually i'm using delphi-mode here.
  576. # [19:47] <Hixie> though it really doesn't colour much
  577. # [19:48] <SamB> can't you add more patterns like usual?
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  582. # [19:51] <Hixie> SamB: that would involve figuring out elisp...
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  588. # [20:04] * hober <3 elisp
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  590. # [20:05] <Ms2ger> Hixie, you don't do elisp? What kind of emacs user are you? :)
  591. # [20:06] <Hixie> a busy one? :-)
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  600. # [20:29] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
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  604. # [20:29] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Github wants your login if you're submitting a patch. It prefers if you've set up ssh keys for identity, but you can do un/pw if necessary. You have to swap what url you're pushing to, though.
  605. # [20:30] <TabAtkins> If you want to pretend that git add doesn't exist, just always commit with the -a flag as well, like `git commit -am "foo"`.
  606. # [20:30] <TabAtkins> (This won't catch new files that get added - you still have to manually add them - but it'll catch all your edits.)
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  609. # [20:33] <Hixie> good to know
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  616. # [20:41] <Hixie> load average: 37.79, 27.83, 16.00
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  618. # [20:42] <Hixie> that explains why i was getting high latency...
  619. # [20:42] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no)
  620. # [20:42] <Hixie> all seems to be blog traffic
  621. # [20:42] <Hixie> lots of lines of:
  622. # [20:42] <Hixie> 10372 25923 lhunt 1:19.59 1.3 265m 39m 2.6 ? php53.cgi
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  626. # [20:48] <Hixie> looks like lots and lots of traffic from 50.56.236.169
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  651. # [21:16] <jochen__> Domenic_: around?
  652. # [21:18] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  653. # [21:18] <aklein> jochen__: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22296 has lots of background here but as Hixie said it didn't exactly land at a complete conclusion
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  656. # [21:19] <aklein> jochen__: some thoughts from Domenic_ in particular at https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22296#c36
  657. # [21:22] <jochen__> i wonder how the spec sets up the execution context
  658. # [21:25] <Domenic_> jochen__: for a bit yeah
  659. # [21:25] <jochen__> cool
  660. # [21:26] <jochen__> Domenic_: so my question is, in https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=346167 you say that chrome violates the es spec
  661. # [21:26] <jochen__> but I fail to understand which part
  662. # [21:26] <aklein> jochen__: "A new execution context is created whenever control is transferred from the executable code associated with the currently running execution context to executable code that is not associated with that execution context."
  663. # [21:26] <Domenic_> jochen__: I believe that was fixed looking at the code recently; I haven't re-run the tests yet though.
  664. # [21:26] <jochen__> as the spec allows the embedder to schedule whatever other tasks it feels like
  665. # [21:27] <Domenic_> jochen__: oh we are talking about the scheduler, not chrome's nonstandard tests, sorry.
  666. # [21:27] <Domenic_> s/tests/methods
  667. # [21:27] <jochen__> right
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  669. # [21:27] <jochen__> the spec says the embedder might mix in arbitrary other tasks as long as the js tasks are executed FIFO
  670. # [21:27] <aklein> jochen__: and [[Call]] creates one too: https://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-built-in-function-objects-call-thisargument-argumentslist
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  673. # [21:29] <jochen__> aklein: yes, I meant, are there any guarntess about the context
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  675. # [21:30] <Domenic_> jochen__: you may be right. but i am not sure an entire event loop turn is allowed to pass.
  676. # [21:31] * Joins: bholley (~bholley@187.64.32.150)
  677. # [21:31] <jochen__> does the es spec talk about event loops at all?
  678. # [21:31] <Domenic_> No
  679. # [21:31] <Domenic_> I guess if you pretended the entire rendering-etc-cycle was one Task
  680. # [21:31] <Domenic_> so that the ES task queue never emptied
  681. # [21:32] <Domenic_> then you could interleave rendering between promise Tasks
  682. # [21:33] <jochen__> maybe we shouldn't have mutation observers, but use object.observe on the javascript objects representing the dom nodes
  683. # [21:33] <jochen__> then all tasks are speced by ES
  684. # [21:34] <aklein> jochen__: heh
  685. # [21:34] <Domenic_> i think there are backcompat restrictions on mutation observer firing order that make any FIFO model fail
  686. # [21:34] <SamB> jochen__: does that work nicely with different objectspaces seeing the same DOM?
  687. # [21:34] <aklein> jochen__: actually the more I read the more it seems like we need a SetAutorunMicrotasks(false) for the ES6 spec just like rafaelw added for V8
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  689. # [21:34] <SamB> i.e. in "content scripts"
  690. # [21:34] <aklein> jochen__: and then HTML would say how to treat the queues in ES
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  692. # [21:35] <Domenic_> i generally think the fact that ES and HTML are both speccing this is a disgrace
  693. # [21:35] <aklein> as it is ES is trying to defer to HTML but isn't being specific enough
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  696. # [21:35] <Hixie> i'm happy to integrate or provide hooks or whatever is needed
  697. # [21:36] <SamB> so, maybe HTML people need to rewrite that attempt to defer and send in the patch?
  698. # [21:36] <jochen__> aklein: sure, if the es guys are ok with saying "there's no guarantee about the tasks at all other that then the ones that get eventually executed are run in fifo order"
  699. # [21:36] <aklein> Domenic_: I don't see how that's avoidable given the existence of non-browser embedders
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  701. # [21:36] <aklein> Hixie: have you read the task queues stuff that's in the ES6 draft?
  702. # [21:36] <SamB> aklein: well, it would be nice to reduce the duplication as much as possible
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  704. # [21:36] <Domenic_> aklein: i guess. do browser embedders actually act significantly different from the HTML spec?
  705. # [21:36] <Domenic_> er, non-browser embedders
  706. # [21:37] <aklein> Domenic_: I guess you could just have ES say nothing about running tasks, just queueing them
  707. # [21:37] <Hixie> aklein: i read it at some point. i was hoping to get contacted by whoever was writing it.
  708. # [21:37] <aklein> but that would be kinda funny
  709. # [21:37] <Domenic_> Hixie: I would hope that too :(. Allen seems pretty set on "I'm just going to spec a general model, I don't need to collaborate"
  710. # [21:38] <jochen__> an alternative is that ES requires the tasks to run before any other embedder event
  711. # [21:38] <Ms2ger> Domenic_, sounds like Allen
  712. # [21:38] <aklein> jochen__: amusingly that's what we had implemented while object.observe was behind a flag
  713. # [21:39] <aklein> just because it was convenient
  714. # [21:39] <jochen__> why did you change it?
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  716. # [21:40] * smaug____ wonders how stable object.observe is
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  718. # [21:41] <aklein> jochen__: see wycats__ asking for basically that behavior in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22296#c16, and Rafael's response
  719. # [21:44] <jochen__> ok
  720. # [21:44] <jochen__> but I disagree with that statement
  721. # [21:44] <jochen__> fifo requires to run a nasty message loop at the end of each event
  722. # [21:44] <jochen__> and appears to be hard to spec
  723. # [21:44] <Hixie> (woot, i pass namedEntities.test!)
  724. # [21:44] <jochen__> thus hard to explain
  725. # [21:44] <jochen__> = error prone
  726. # [21:44] <jochen__> :)
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  728. # [21:46] <smaug____> sounds odd if ES tasks had higher priority
  729. # [21:46] <aklein> jochen__: it sounds like you're arguing for something that's simpler to spec/simpler to implement and disregarding how weird the actual behavior is?
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  731. # [21:47] <jochen__> hum, i think it's also less weird
  732. # [21:47] <jochen__> like, now, in what context are the promise tasks executed?
  733. # [21:48] <jochen__> a mutation observer could just do document.write()
  734. # [21:48] <aklein> jochen__: as I said in my email, I think that's colored because you're one of like 20 people on the planet who have a very secure grasp of what's "javascript" and what's "embedder"
  735. # [21:48] <jochen__> and so the promise task gets an entirely different world
  736. # [21:48] <aklein> so could a promise task, though
  737. # [21:48] <jochen__> right
  738. # [21:48] <aklein> maybe you're arguing that Promises should just go first?
  739. # [21:48] <jochen__> but then it's a defined series of updates to the context
  740. # [21:48] <jochen__> (defined as in pure ES defined)
  741. # [21:49] <jochen__> yes, that's what i meant to say
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  743. # [21:49] <aklein> what about Object.observe callbacks?
  744. # [21:50] <jochen__> all ES tasks should go in FIFO order
  745. # [21:50] <jochen__> (basically using the microtasks autorun = true mode in v8)
  746. # [21:51] <SamB> that sounds a bit overconstrained ...
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  750. # [21:51] <aklein> jochen__: so my argument there is, what's special about ES tasks?
  751. # [21:52] <SamB> or I guess you mean tasks that are unblocked?
  752. # [21:52] <aklein> as smaug____ said above, it seems sort of odd just to choose ES tasks
  753. # [21:53] <jochen__> why is it odd?
  754. # [21:53] <aklein> how are they different than embedder tasks?
  755. # [21:53] <jochen__> or more odd to prefer es tasks and mutation observers over postMessage()
  756. # [21:53] <jochen__> (i think postMessage is a better example than setTimeout because the latter is a delayed task)
  757. # [21:53] <aklein> jochen__: so there's a whole argument about why observers want to go before postMessage
  758. # [21:53] <Domenic_> es tasks (= promises, object.observe) + mutation observers are microtasks
  759. # [21:53] <Domenic_> postMessage() is macrotask
  760. # [21:53] * SamB sort of suspects that HTML would have some nasty cases which the rules ES would come up with wouldn't handle compatibly ...
  761. # [21:54] <aklein> which I was hoping rafaelw would provide on the email thread since he's good at stating it
  762. # [21:54] <aklein> but it really goes back to the birth of MutationObservers
  763. # [21:54] <aklein> which were designed as a replacement for Mutation Events
  764. # [21:54] <SamB> so nobody already wrote up the argument somewhere?
  765. # [21:54] <jochen__> i know
  766. # [21:54] <aklein> we wanted them to run asynchronously (to avoid the performance and security problems of Mutation Events)
  767. # [21:55] <aklein> but not so asynchronously that there'd be a paint before they ran
  768. # [21:55] <aklein> (so they can be used, e.g., to polyfill custom elements)
  769. # [21:55] <SamB> eww
  770. # [21:55] <SamB> I hope you mean "new elements"?
  771. # [21:55] <Domenic_> microtasks are a Good Thing
  772. # [21:56] <smaug____> !
  773. # [21:56] <Domenic_> they are one of the innovations of the web platform IMO
  774. # [21:56] <aklein> SamB: sure: polyfill DOM features
  775. # [21:56] <Domenic_> traditional async data binding frameworks suffer badly from having only macrotasks
  776. # [21:56] <jochen__> but you realize that this is not possible, right?
  777. # [21:56] <jochen__> if I modify a polyfilled element and immediately query it, the polyfill didn't have a chance to run yet
  778. # [21:57] <SamB> jochen__: I was just thinking that ...
  779. # [21:57] <smaug____> also giving separate view of world for event listeners played part in microtask design
  780. # [21:58] <aklein> jochen__: sure, there are some things you lose by not acting synchrously
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  782. # [21:59] <smaug____> mutation events have shown that doing stuff synchronously isn't just workable solution for everything. And we need good performance
  783. # [21:59] <smaug____> in Gecko MutationObservers were even initially 7x faster way to observer changes in DOM than Mutation Events
  784. # [21:59] <smaug____> (and should be better now )
  785. # [22:00] <jochen__> i guess in the end, i'd just like this behavior to be specified
  786. # [22:01] * SamB wonders if there are any attempts to standardize the treatment of "content scripts" which have their own javascript objects, but which nevertheless interact with the same DOM tree
  787. # [22:01] <aklein> jochen__: indeed, that I can totally agree with, it sounds like we need to get Hixie and Allen in a room together
  788. # [22:01] <Domenic_> IMO someone (whether HTML or ES or heck a third spec why not) should spec out something that matches all existing implementations. Which will be closer to HTML than what ES has.
  789. # [22:01] <Domenic_> Then both HTML and ES delegate to that
  790. # [22:02] <jochen__> SamB: i don't think so
  791. # [22:02] <Domenic_> http://esdiscuss.org/topic/es6-tasks-and-taskqueues#content-3 if you guys haven't seen Allen's response
  792. # [22:03] <smaug____> SamB: what is the context here?
  793. # [22:03] <smaug____> (In Gecko content script is a privileged script which has access to the top level window object)
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  795. # [22:04] <SamB> yeah, I know that there are some big differences between how Gecko and Chromium treat such scripts
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  797. # [22:05] <SamB> or, mmm, maybe you mean a different top level
  798. # [22:05] <SamB> smaug____: anyway, the Grease-style scripts for starters
  799. # [22:05] <smaug____> I don't know what is "content script" in blink
  800. # [22:05] <smaug____> ah
  801. # [22:05] <aklein> jochen__: I have to run, sorry (I realize it's much later for you :)
  802. # [22:06] <SamB> er, +Monkey
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  805. # [22:08] <SamB> smaug____: anyway, https://developer.chrome.com/extensions/content_scripts describes them as they apply to Chrome extensions
  806. # [22:09] <smaug____> oh, but they get totally different view from page's scripts, right?
  807. # [22:09] <SamB> yeah, as do GreaseMonkey scripts now
  808. # [22:10] <SamB> though with GreaseMonkey the scripts *can* actually mess with the page's objects too
  809. # [22:10] <smaug____> yes
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  811. # [22:10] <smaug____> gecko background shows up there, I guess
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  815. # [22:17] <SamB> Okay, some people are just crazy. Naming a browser "Web"? For real?
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  820. # [22:22] <SamB> my, what lovely documentation Chrome has for userscripts: http://www.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/user-scripts/
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  831. # [22:38] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  832. # [22:41] <zcorpan> anyone know where aryeh's innerText spec went? and tests? http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-February/030179.html
  833. # [22:41] <smaug____> Ms2ger: ^
  834. # [22:42] <Ms2ger> I think he put it up somewhere and then nobody implemented it
  835. # [22:42] <Ms2ger> Looks like it was at http://aryeh.name/spec/innertext/innertext.html
  836. # [22:43] <Ms2ger> I don't think I have a copy
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  838. # [22:45] <Ms2ger> Wayback has it at http://web.archive.org/web/20121127212525/http://aryeh.name/spec/innertext/innertext.html
  839. # [22:47] <Ms2ger> I'll email him
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  841. # [22:48] <jochen__> is somebody here involved with MediaQueryListListeners?
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  843. # [22:48] <jochen__> i wonder why MediaQueryList doesn't simple define an onchanged event or something
  844. # [22:48] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, by default, I guess
  845. # [22:48] <jochen__> but instead defines it's on kind of event that's completely different from the rest
  846. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> Probably because MQL is dumb and stupid.
  847. # [22:49] <jochen__> can we update the spec
  848. # [22:49] <jochen__> pretty please
  849. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> Mail www-style?
  850. # [22:49] <jochen__> with sugar on top
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  852. # [22:49] <jochen__> will do
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  855. # [22:52] <jochen__> done
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  859. # [22:55] <Hixie> Domenic_: re your exception "proximate cause" thing, what we could do is have each place that fires an exception get a unique ID (maybe even a real GUID, though that would be a bit overlong, maybe something shorter)
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  864. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> Where is MQL defined?
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  872. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> Ah, OM View
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  876. # [23:10] <jochen__> TabAtkins: so what would be the process to make that change happen?
  877. # [23:10] <TabAtkins> I just responded. We figure out what to do, edit the spec accordingly, file bugs, done.
  878. # [23:10] <jochen__> cool
  879. # [23:12] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: my thinking was to let them pass through as in the dom. but it's not explicit. also see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25110
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  882. # [23:14] <SimonSapin> well CSS backslash-escapes explicitly decode surrogates to U+FFFD
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  884. # [23:14] <SimonSapin> but yeah, they otherwise pass through implicitly
  885. # [23:14] <SimonSapin> I wish we could change that
  886. # [23:15] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: that's a JS-escape, not a CSS escape
  887. # [23:15] * Quits: Maurice` (copyman@5ED57922.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  888. # [23:15] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: quoting from the bug: "CSS.escape('\uD800')"
  889. # [23:15] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: yep. JS escape
  890. # [23:16] <SimonSapin> ok, yes, \uD800 is a JS escape
  891. # [23:16] <SimonSapin> but CSS.escape() just lets it though
  892. # [23:16] <zcorpan> yeah
  893. # [23:16] <SimonSapin> encoding it as \D800 would not work
  894. # [23:16] <zcorpan> right
  895. # [23:17] <zcorpan> but we could change it i guess
  896. # [23:17] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  897. # [23:17] <zcorpan> but i don't see the point if it's not possible to change in the dom
  898. # [23:17] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no)
  899. # [23:17] <zcorpan> is it?
  900. # [23:18] <SimonSapin> document.write() and innerHTML might be more constrained
  901. # [23:18] <SimonSapin> but still, I’d prefer rust-cssparser to work with UTF-8 input rather than UCS-2
  902. # [23:19] * Quits: shannonmoeller (~shannonmo@nat.sierrabravo.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
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  906. # [23:24] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: you have to do better than that :-P
  907. # [23:24] * Quits: shannonmoeller (~shannonmo@nat.sierrabravo.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  908. # [23:24] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  909. # [23:24] <SimonSapin> surrogates are evil and we should limit the spread of the infection as much as possible
  910. # [23:26] <zcorpan> now you're not making sense. evil is not a diseases
  911. # [23:26] <zcorpan> s/s//
  912. # [23:27] <SimonSapin> not making ense?
  913. # [23:27] <zcorpan> that's right
  914. # [23:27] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  915. # [23:32] * WolfieZero is now known as WolfieZero|Away
  916. # [23:33] * Joins: Rastus_Vernon (uid15187@wikimedia/Rastus-Vernon)
  917. # [23:34] * jonlee_|afk is now known as jonlee_
  918. # [23:36] * Quits: WolfieZero|Away (~WolfieZer@90.202.161.149) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  919. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> "now you're not making ene. evil i not a dieae"
  920. # [23:42] * Quits: felipeduardo (~felipedua@177.41.246.15) (Remote host closed the connection)
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  923. # [23:44] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@31.55.74.33) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  924. # [23:45] <SimonSapin> well he didn’t use a s/s//g
  925. # [23:47] <zcorpan> s/// on irc always has dwim flags implied
  926. # [23:47] * Joins: reyre (~reyre@bas1-streetsville52-3096630502.dsl.bell.ca)
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  928. # [23:48] * Quits: llkats (~llkats@h-64-236-138-3.aoltw.net)
  929. # [23:49] <SimonSapin> dwim?
  930. # [23:51] <zcorpan> do what i mean
  931. # [23:52] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@109.233-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  932. # [23:52] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.114.217.177)
  933. # [23:54] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  934. # [23:57] <Hixie> lol
  935. # [23:57] <Hixie> i refactored my code, changing hundreds of lines, using a different approach, etc.
  936. # [23:58] <Hixie> it fixed my test! U+0000 numeric character references now parse ok!
  937. # [23:58] <Hixie> next bug: U+0001.
  938. # [23:58] <Hixie> -_-
  939. # [23:59] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.114.217.177) (Quit: weinig)
  940. # Session Close: Tue Apr 01 00:00:00 2014

The end :)