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- # Session Start: Tue Apr 08 00:00:00 2014
- # Session Ident: #whatwg
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- # [00:24] <Hixie> what's happened to live dom viewer on firefox?
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- # [00:30] <smaug____> live dom viewer?
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- # [00:31] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/
- # [00:31] <Hixie> the rendered view no longer renders?
- # [00:32] <smaug____> works fine here
- # [00:32] <Hixie> i'm on 29, beta
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- # [00:32] <Hixie> the rendered view just gives a 0-height iframe
- # [00:33] <miketaylr> wfm on nightly
- # [00:33] <Hixie> weird
- # [00:34] <smaug____> wfm on beta
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- # [00:37] <Hixie> i wonder what's up with my build then
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- # [01:03] <gsnedders> jgraham: req html5lib #146/147 speedy review, blocks Travis CI passing anything
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- # [01:24] <zewt> not sure i've seen anything in a version control system that kills my workflow instantly more than git's auto-gc
- # [01:25] <SamB> zewt: you could turn that off and set up a cronjob?
- # [01:25] <gsnedders> You can disable it :P
- # [01:25] <zewt> right now i'm twiddling my thumbs since it's taking several minutes
- # [01:26] <zewt> also i don't want expensive cronjobs on my laptop, heh
- # [01:28] <SamB> excuses!
- # [01:28] <SamB> I guess you could try to set the threshold so high you could just take a break and watch an episode of something while you wait?
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- # [01:30] <zewt> doesn't help when it happens while I'm at work an hour late trying to finish something :P
- # [01:32] <SamB> well, you have a choice here: have while you work, or at some other point
- # [01:34] <Hixie> that's a fallacy of an excluded middle
- # [01:34] <Hixie> there's a third option: have git not have any synchronous or blocking maintenance tasks.
- # [01:34] <zewt> i tend to expect database-like systems to not require periodic downtime to retain performance these days
- # [01:35] <SamB> anyway, patches seem welcome
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- # [01:36] <Hixie> or just use svn :-)
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- # [01:36] <SamB> crazies
- # [01:36] <Hixie> anyone here managed to get requestAutocomplete() to work?
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- # [01:50] <annevk> Hixie: JakeA might have
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- # [01:51] <annevk> Hixie: sicking expressed a concern with requestAutocomplete() about universal address input not being sorted yet
- # [01:52] <Hixie> the address-level3 stuff? that's blocked awaiting mozilla input...
- # [01:52] <Hixie> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25235
- # [01:53] <Hixie> backstory in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2014Apr/0010.html
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- # [01:57] <Hixie> annevk: ^
- # [01:57] <annevk> hmm
- # [01:58] <annevk> maybe I should become project manager
- # [01:59] <annevk> feels like I do stuff like that at least 30% of my time
- # [01:59] <Hixie> heh
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- # [02:10] <JakeA> Hixie: there's a demo linked from http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/forms/requestautocomplete/
- # [02:10] <JakeA> It's in the wild too, a few SF companies
- # [02:10] <Hixie> yeah, that's the one that uses minified JS
- # [02:10] <Hixie> i can get that one to work
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- # [02:10] <Hixie> but i can't get anything simpler to work
- # [02:10] <Hixie> even using that page's markup
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- # [02:11] <annevk> Hixie: are you using it from a UI event handler?
- # [02:11] <Hixie> yeah
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- # [02:14] <annevk> I don't understand the form that pops up from https://googledrive.com/host/0B28BnxIvH5DueUxvWVNsQXd5dU0/
- # [02:14] <Hixie> what's not to understand?
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- # [02:22] <Hixie> wow, i managed to miss a single row of the 0x80-0x9F numeric char ref mapping table in my code
- # [02:22] <Hixie> yay for tests.
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- # [02:49] <annevk-cloud> Hixie: API is https-only
- # [02:50] <annevk-cloud> Hixie: reportedly
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- # [06:36] <Hixie> annevk-cloud: i tried https
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- # [09:41] <hsivonen_> Hixie: I'm here now.
- # [09:41] * hsivonen_ is now known as hsivonen
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- # Session Close: Tue Apr 08 10:08:06 2014
- #
- # Session Start: Tue Apr 08 10:08:06 2014
- # Session Ident: #whatwg
- # [10:08] * Disconnected
- # [10:09] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
- # [10:09] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
- # [10:09] * Topic is 'http://www.whatwg.org/ — logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ — stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html — Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
- # [10:09] * Set by annevk!~annevk@207.218.72.65 on Tue Mar 25 11:47:32
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- # [10:59] <gsnedders> In talk on PNaCl at EuroLLVM… Let's see how this goes. :)
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- # [11:05] <gsnedders> I guess endianness issues aren't really an issue on the web platform now, because that ship has already sailed even in JS. :(
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- # [12:09] <zcorpan> gsnedders: we talked about dropping the NCName etc checks in dom core, but since it was already interoperably implemented and well tested it didn't seem worth the cost of changing it
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- # [12:42] <jgraham> zcorpan: Now I think it mostly is your tests that are causing randomness, and I'm not all that sure how to fix them :|
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- # [12:42] <zcorpan> jgraham: ok, i can have a look now
- # [12:44] <zcorpan> http://hoppipolla.co.uk/410/unstable.txt is what i should be looking at?
- # [12:45] <jgraham> zcorpan: I fixed a few of those.
- # [12:45] <jgraham> The following, at least, remain:
- # [12:45] <jgraham> /html/infrastructure/urls/resolving-urls/query-encoding
- # [12:45] <jgraham> /html/semantics/embedded-content/media-elements/interfaces/TextTrack/addCue.html
- # [12:45] <jgraham> /old-tests/submission/Opera/preload/auto/
- # [12:46] <jgraham> /webvtt/webvtt-file-format-parsing/webvtt-file-parsing/001.html
- # [12:46] <jgraham> /workers/semantics/reporting-errors/003.html (I thought I fixed this one; I wonder if I didn't land the change)
- # [12:47] * heycam|away|away is now known as heycam|away
- # [12:48] <jgraham> zcorpan: In some cases it seems like the instability only occurs when you run some other tests before the unstable one. I added a tool to wptrunner to work out the minimal set of prior tests needed to get instability. I don't know if that will be useful to you, but if you want to use it let me know and I can give you instructions
- # [12:50] <zcorpan> i'll take a stab without it first
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- # [12:51] <jgraham> Yeah, it's a bit of a last-resort option
- # [12:51] <jgraham> (also I need to make a new release that includes it ;)
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- # [12:55] <zcorpan> EventSource constructor and window.open() first passed and then failed (because they used utf-8). that seems totally wacked
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- # [12:57] <zcorpan> similar for XMLHttpRequest#open()
- # [12:57] <jgraham> (speaking of eventsource /eventsource/format-field-retry.htm should also be on the list)
- # [12:58] <jgraham> "totally wacked" as in "Gecko bugs"?
- # [13:01] <zcorpan> yeah i think so. but i can investigate some more
- # [13:01] <zcorpan> CSS <style> #<id> { background-image:<url> } also
- # [13:02] <zcorpan> actually all "CSS <style>" passed on the second run
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- # [13:08] <zcorpan> jgraham: some of the css tests have TIMEOUTs in http://hoppipolla.co.uk/410/unstable.txt which might not be bugs since css sucks at defining when/if things are fetched. not sure what to do about those, maybe yank them?
- # [13:11] <jgraham> zcorpan: In the query-encoding tests? Well if it's testing underdefined behaviour I guess that's a problem
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- # [13:14] <zcorpan> yeah. http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-ui/#cursor0 is the spec for 'cursor'
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- # [13:21] <zcorpan> but the others shouldn't be timing out since the styles are used on the page
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- # [13:35] <zcorpan> jgraham: i seem to get stable results for query-encoding in chrome
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- # [14:23] <jgraham> zcorpan: OK, I guess it's Firefox issues. Maybe I will try disabling the unstable tests and filing a bug
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- # [14:24] <zcorpan> jgraham: yeah that's what i'd recommend for query-encoding. i could comment out the 'cursor' test but i guess that doesn't help you much and anyway it would be good if that was also stable :-)
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- # [14:35] <zcorpan> jgraham: when running tests, do you run several query-encoding files at the same time?
- # [14:35] <Ms2ger> Hmm
- # [14:37] <jgraham> zcorpan: Yeah
- # [14:37] <jgraham> Well define "same time"
- # [14:37] <jgraham> One after another
- # [14:39] <zcorpan> like do you have two windows open and start running http://web-platform.test:8000/html/infrastructure/urls/resolving-urls/query-encoding/windows-1252.html before http://web-platform.test:8000/html/infrastructure/urls/resolving-urls/query-encoding/windows-1251.html has finished
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- # [14:40] <jgraham> zcorpan: Not in the production configuration, but that could happen when running with multiple processes
- # [14:41] <zcorpan> i think that can cause timeouts. i could get 13 timeouts in one tab in chrome when opening the same test in 6 tabs. and while writing the tests i had to make some tests run "in sequence" in order to not get mass timeouts
- # [14:41] <jgraham> zcorpan: Do you know why?
- # [14:41] <zcorpan> no :-(
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- # [14:42] <zcorpan> but it's probably stressing the server with the stach.py thing
- # [14:43] <jgraham> That *could* be a bug in the server. In theory it shouldn't matter for the stash if things are run in parallel (that's why you need a UUID as a token)
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- # [14:44] <zcorpan> it's doing time.sleep(0.01) in a loop until it finds the stash it's looking for or until it reaches a limit
- # [14:45] <zcorpan> i understand that it may be a terrible thing to do :-)
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- # [14:47] <jgraham> That sounds like a pretty terrible thing to do :)
- # [14:47] <jgraham> But I kind of see why you might do that
- # [14:47] <jgraham> I'll have a look
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- # [14:56] <zcorpan> jgraham: http://web-platform.test:8000/html/semantics/embedded-content/media-elements/interfaces/TextTrack/addCue.html is not in http://hoppipolla.co.uk/410/unstable.txt and i fail to reproduce randomness in gecko here
- # [14:56] <zcorpan> the last test always times out though
- # [14:59] <jgraham> zcorpan: I think it might have changed in recently nightlies, but I'm not sure
- # [14:59] <jgraham> But I think I failed to reproduce that randomness on my machine too
- # [14:59] <jgraham> So it might depend on another test
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- # [15:56] <jgraham> zcorpan: I wonder if it would make sense to move the polling of the stash to the client rather than the server. I wonder if what you have could cause a problem with connection limits or something
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- # [15:57] <zcorpan> jgraham: maybe yeah
- # [15:59] <zcorpan> jgraham: could it use a websocket maybe? a single websocket for "getting" the stash for all tests? would be cheap to poll there
- # [16:03] <jgraham> zcorpan: I guess that's the more advanced option, although it isn't really easy to create websockets that can access the server state
- # [16:03] <jgraham> zcorpan: I can try moving the polling to the client and see if it helps
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- # [16:06] <zcorpan> jgraham: ok. i think you could set some delay for the first poll so that it doesn't always waste one connection that's too early
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- # [16:38] <jgraham> Aryeh isn't on irc :( (not surprising, but he did just submit a review)
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- # [16:38] <jgraham> (if he was I would tell him that due to the Magic Of Technology, Ms2ger automatically gets assigned the review)
- # [16:38] <jgraham> (But he isn't so I can't)
- # [16:39] <Ms2ger> Dammit
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- # [16:55] <gsnedders> jgraham: Did you see my html5lib review?
- # [16:55] * gsnedders prods
- # [16:55] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yes, but I didn't look at it yet
- # [16:55] <jgraham> Maybe this evening
- # [16:56] <gsnedders> k
- # [16:56] <gsnedders> I want to merge a couple of the other PRs we've got
- # [16:56] <gsnedders> But everything fails with Travis CI atm. Because pep8 update introduced new failures.
- # [16:58] <jgraham> OK, if it's just trivial things then the review is rather likely
- # [16:58] <gsnedders> Yeah yeah, it's really obviously safe stylistic changes
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- # [17:23] <jgraham> Hmm, so I think I made this test stable in Firefox
- # [17:23] <jgraham> But hang in Chrome
- # [17:23] <jgraham> That's a good tradeoff, right?
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- # [17:32] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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- # [18:07] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, because integrating rust into Firefox is an unsolved problem right now, and C++ isn't
- # [18:09] <jgraham> context?
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- # [18:10] <Ms2ger> https://twitter.com/gsnedders/status/453510682911461377
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- # [18:12] <jgraham> Oh. Could in theory make a C API wrapper or something. But the build system stuff would be interesting
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- # [18:18] <SimonSapin> jgraham: has an interesting definition of "interesting" :)
- # [18:20] <jgraham> "Interesting" as in "may you live in interesting times"
- # [18:24] * SamB wonders about a quasi-reference implementation of encodings ...
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- # [18:24] <SimonSapin> SamB: character encodings?
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- # [18:26] <SamB> hmm, okay, I added a stray "s": http://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/
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- # [18:28] <Ms2ger> jgraham++
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- # [18:29] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, also, very little (if any) experience with rust in the security team would mean slower/more likely buggy code writing and reviewing, and calling the library from C++ would still involve crossing through a C API, with all the fun things that implies
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- # [18:31] <jgraham> zcorpan: Well I pushed a review request, but you might not like it (but that's OK; it's what code review is for :)
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- # [19:28] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Integrating into the build system or more generally?
- # [19:29] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Because without stdlib it should be fine, right?
- # [19:29] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: And I have more trust in a small C wrapper API than something large written in old-sk00l C++. :)
- # [19:30] <Ms2ger> Build system is one of the first things I thought of, yes
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- # [19:30] <Ms2ger> Especially since we're already spread very thin there
- # [19:31] <Ms2ger> (There's basically nobody who's actually paid to work on the build system)
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- # [19:35] <gsnedders> Well, of course. Why would that matter? It's not profitable!
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- # [20:14] <Ms2ger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2014Apr/0011.html
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- # [20:30] <annevk> jgraham: why?
- # [20:30] <annevk> jgraham: something happening?
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- # [20:43] <Hixie> jgraham: how is it even affecting you
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- # [20:52] <jgraham> They are talking about testing
- # [20:52] <jgraham> And people are saying things that sound a lot like "we could just delete the tests that fail"
- # [20:52] <jgraham> And it's really 386ing me
- # [20:53] <Hixie> wow, really
- # [20:53] * Hixie looks at the calendar
- # [20:53] <jgraham> (or even "we could edit the spec so that the behaviour become undefined, and *then* delete the tests")
- # [20:53] <Hixie> 2014 and still talking about getting interop by ignoring lack of interop!
- # [20:53] <Hixie> gotta love the w3c!
- # [20:54] <jgraham> Well I'm hoping that this is just people who didn't get the memo and that darobin will keep them in line
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- # [20:55] <darobin> no tests are getting deleted
- # [20:55] <hober> Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of darobin!
- # [20:55] <darobin> there are so many better options in the weaseling toolbox
- # [20:55] <Hixie> like not weaseling?
- # [20:55] <Hixie> oh right, i forgot, w3c.
- # [20:56] <darobin> I thought "weasel" was the reason for the initial "w" in anything standards related?
- # [20:56] <Hixie> um, no
- # [20:56] <Hixie> weaseling is shameful
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- # [20:59] <wilhelm> jgraham: Who are those people?
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- # [20:59] * wilhelm finds his pitchfork.
- # [21:00] <Domenic___> hober++
- # [21:00] <MikeSmith> so should I stop deleting tests now?
- # [21:00] <Domenic___> also yeah the recent d3events "let's not specify this" threads on www-dom were O__o
- # [21:00] <Ms2ger> Well, it's d3e
- # [21:00] <Ms2ger> I don't think they ever got the memo
- # [21:02] <SamB> are they like "memo? what is memo?"
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- # [21:06] <Ms2ger> I didn't see no memo!
- # [21:06] <Ms2ger> foolip, did you have a corpus?
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- # [21:06] <Ms2ger> I'm wondering how much <script type=text/javascript;version=*> happens in the wild
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- # [21:25] <zewt> weasel hat wg
- # [21:25] <Ms2ger> That conjures a nice picture of a weasel in a hat
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- # [21:39] <Domenic___> the ol' question mark logo's been around for a while, maybe it's time to let a weasel in a hat take over the job
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- # [21:43] <SamB> Domenic___: doesn't sound like a good favicon ...
- # [21:44] <SamB> I mean, unless you get a good drawer and a good pixeler in on it
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- # [21:45] <hober> Domenic___: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/1998JulSep/0342.html
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- # [21:45] <hober> annevk: ^^
- # [21:45] <Domenic___> O_____O
- # [21:45] <hober> annevk: maybe you should use a weasel
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- # [21:47] <Ms2ger> Oh, good old times
- # [21:47] <Ms2ger> Re: document.write to self during load not allowed by PR-DOM
- # [21:48] <SamB> PR-DOM ?
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- # [22:02] <annevk> wut
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- # [22:04] <annevk> hober: it's somewhat nicer than our cludged tree construct
- # [22:04] <annevk> hober: make it green
- # [22:05] <annevk> jgraham: now I am sad too
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- # [22:19] <annevk> Domenic___: whoa, you tweet meed me read the other emails in that thread
- # [22:19] <annevk> Domenic___: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/1998JulSep/0349.html o_O
- # [22:19] <Domenic___> hehe yeah
- # [22:20] <annevk> also, I wonder if that's the same Mike Champion that's now Microsoft's AC rep
- # [22:20] <annevk> I guess it might be
- # [22:20] <annevk> been sixteen years
- # [22:23] <darobin> it is
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- # [22:24] <MikeSmith> it's the same physical person at least
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- # [22:31] <galineau> yup, same guy
- # [22:33] <galineau> wait is MSFT suggesting removing tests?
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- # [22:34] <SamB> what, MSFT? never!
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- # [22:38] <MikeSmith> OH: "anally required process"
- # [22:39] <MikeSmith> "better get my freight on the freighter"
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- # [23:45] <annevk> SamB: https://github.com/inexorabletash/text-encoding
- # [23:45] <annevk> whoa, galineau
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- # [23:53] <galineau> annevk, I'm guessing he might have browser tabs as old as you
- # [23:54] <annevk> heh
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- # Session Close: Wed Apr 09 00:00:00 2014
The end :)