/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-04-10 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Apr 10 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:00] <JakeA> Hixie: Looking at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#allowed-to-show-a-popup - So touchevents aren't a strong enough signal?
# [00:00] <full_vlad> SamB, I just found a reference to your site in the Google content script documentation :p lol
# [00:01] <Hixie> JakeA: that list was based on what browsers did at the time; i'm happy to add more if browsers want to add more
# [00:01] <SamB> you mean whatwg.org? that's not *my* site :-)
# [00:01] <Hixie> though honestly, on mobile, popups are even worse
# [00:02] * SamB 's mind is blown ... how can there be popups on mobile?
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# [00:02] * SamB should think about getting a smartphone sometime ...
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# [00:03] <JakeA> Hixie: gotcha
# [00:04] <Hixie> anyone else getting frequent 408s from bugzilla?
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# [00:06] <esprehn> Hixie: I think we want the autocomplete events to bubble
# [00:07] <esprehn> Hixie: is there a reason you have all the new events not bubbling? We've gotten complaints from developers since it doesn't work with event delegation frameworks
# [00:09] <Hixie> i tried to test chrome and it didn't seem to bubble there
# [00:09] <Hixie> (you can always use capturing event handlers, btw, regardless of bubbling)
# [00:10] <Hixie> i'm happy to make them bubble if chrome is going to change
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# [00:13] <Hixie> hsivonen: ping https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23940 and ping on the registry proposal thread
# [00:13] <esprehn> Hixie: https://src.chromium.org/viewvc/blink?revision=170827&view=revision
# [00:13] <SamB> Hixie: maybe Chrome is wrong
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# [00:14] <esprehn> Hixie: what was the reason for making simple events not bubble by default?
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# [00:17] <Hixie> esprehn: i like my defaults to be 0/false/""/null, generally. no other reason.
# [00:18] <Hixie> esprehn: ah, good to see that change. will make them bubble.
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# [00:21] <Hixie> esprehn: done
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# [00:25] <slightlyoff> most events should bubble unless there's a security or privacy reason not to
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# [00:25] <SamB> slightlyoff: or a "that will really complicate applications" reason?
# [00:26] <esprehn> yeah I think we might want to change the default, or at the very least fix up some events
# [00:26] <esprehn> Hixie: ex. the form validation events don't bubble
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# [00:27] <Hixie> like 'invalid' ?
# [00:27] <Hixie> you probably don't want 'invalid' to bubble, because there's not really any logical way to handle that generically
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# [00:29] <Hixie> slightlyoff: i don't see how there could be a security or privacy implication to any events bubbling or not. I think a bigger concern is whether it makes the API sane or not. e.g. clicking makes sense to bubble -- you click something, you're clicking its container. But 'load' on <img> doesn't make sense to bubble, because then it would get confused with the 'load' event on Window.
# [00:30] <Hixie> with <form>, since you can't nest them, it doesn't really make any difference either way, so bubbling is probably fine
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# [00:31] <Hixie> 'toggle' on <details> wouldn't make sense to bubble since <details> can be nested, and you'd get confused about which one just opened.
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# [00:31] <Hixie> and so forth
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# [00:33] <MikeSmith> Hixie: 408s from w3c bugzilla?
# [00:33] <Hixie> [24~yeah
# [00:33] <Hixie> yeah, even
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# [00:34] <slightlyoff> it seems significantly better to have a general "the way this works" than to try to special-case based on local reasoning.
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# [00:34] <slightlyoff> trying to teach the web platform is really, really hard for these sorts of reasons
# [00:35] <Hixie> nah, designing APIs to just follow arbitrary rules doesn't make things better, imho.
# [00:35] <Hixie> i'm all for consistency, but not to the point of making APIs hard to use.
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# [00:35] <Hixie> i don't think anyone has trouble with the fact that <img onload> and <body onload> are different events.
# [00:35] <esprehn> Hixie: all the entities in the acknowledgements section are double escaped
# [00:36] <Hixie> but i think they'd get _really_ confused if <img onload> bubbles to <body onload>.
# [00:36] <Hixie> esprehn: yeah, known bug (only affects the multipage copy)
# [00:36] <esprehn> ah okay
# [00:36] <Hixie> esprehn: a fix is in the works but i want to do a long-term fix for a bunch of related issues so for now it's still broken :-)
# [00:36] <slightlyoff> Hixie: if that was just the way "it worked", they'd start to filter by event target and/or we'd provide a good filtering API for them
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# [00:37] <esprehn> Hixie: why would you get confused? the event.target points to the one that toggled?
# [00:37] <slightlyoff> Hixie: but as it stands there's not good filtering API, no way to teach how it works without "...except in all of these other cases becaues that's the way it is" and no clear model for what got decided in which direction
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# [00:38] <Hixie> esprehn: because <body onload="start()"> would work fine until you inserted an <img>, and then your code would run twice and you'd have no idea why
# [00:38] <esprehn> Hixie: I meant the <details> case, not that one
# [00:38] <esprehn> onload we can't change, too much content doesn't understand
# [00:38] <esprehn> but modern content does check the target. Developers are used to dealing with click like things
# [00:38] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Why would toggle on details be confusing? It's no more confusing than "click". Being unable to do event delegation for things like "toggle" is annoying.
# [00:39] <Hixie> esprehn: well again, <details ontoggle="animate(this)"> would work fine until you nested them, then it would break
# [00:39] <esprehn> how is that different than onclick="animate(this)" ?
# [00:39] <Hixie> the difference is that "click", conceptually, does affect all the elements in the chain
# [00:39] <Hixie> you're clicking on the whole stack
# [00:39] <TabAtkins> (No less confusing than "click" either, but the solution to figure out the target element is the same in both cases.)
# [00:40] <TabAtkins> Hixie: You're projecting a *particular* mental model on that, which may not make any sense in some cases.
# [00:40] <TabAtkins> In some cases for the author, it's really a particular element being clicked. Like a button.
# [00:40] <esprehn> Hixie: that doesn't match conversations we'e had with developers recently
# [00:40] <esprehn> they've complained that "invalid" and other new events don't bubble
# [00:41] <TabAtkins> More importantly, though, the ergonomics of non-bubbling is annoying, as esprehn and slightlyoff are saying.
# [00:41] <TabAtkins> Because you have to specifically register a listener on every element you want to listen to, rather than doing one for a subtree or the whole page.
# [00:41] <esprehn> <form oninvalid="..."> doesn't seem unreasonable, you want a single listener that opens some kind of error bubble
# [00:41] <esprehn> It uses event.target to figure out what thing wants the bubble
# [00:41] <TabAtkins> Each-element listeners make it more complicated to do dynamic HTML updates.
# [00:41] <Hixie> file a bug, if there's no compat problem we can change it
# [00:41] <Hixie> whatwg.org/newbug
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# [00:42] <slightlyoff> There's also the non-trivial costs to many apps of needing to do specific registration
# [00:42] <SamB> yeah, onload should probably not bubble ...
# [00:42] <Hixie> i'm just objecting to the idea that we should blindly make all cases bubble
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# [00:42] <SamB> Hixie: yeah, of course not blindly
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# [00:42] <Hixie> remember, btw, that you can always get the bubbling behaviour using capturing handlers
# [00:42] <slightlyoff> we implemented delegation in Dojo for many of the common event types (transparently to the users) to prevent us from incurring the (pretty bad) costs of having to thunk through the DOM everywhere vs. add a node to a filter list
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# [00:46] <slightlyoff> I'd need to look at which events are captureable in which browsers. I think there's some legacy baggage I'm carrying around in my head which might no longer be valid
# [00:53] <Hixie> all events can always be captured
# [00:53] <smaug____> There are cases when non-bubbling is exactly what you want. mouseenter/leave
# [00:53] <Hixie> yeah, those are a good example too
# [00:54] <zewt> but capturing events has a different event order; for delegation i usually want the delegate event listener to happen in the bubble phase, not capture
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# [00:55] <Hixie> you could always add a capture handler that cancels the event and redispatches it with bubbling enabled :-)
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# [00:55] <zewt> i think i basically never, ever want any event to not be bubbling; that's something that should be decided by the person listening, not the person dispatching (if I'm a listener and I want the behavior of a non-bubbling event, I'll just check the event phase)
# [00:55] <zewt> that's far worse :)
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# [00:56] <smaug____> zewt: mouseenter/leave don't make sense if they bubble
# [00:58] <zewt> not sure that mouseenter/leave make sense at all
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# [01:00] <zewt> seem like a lot of complexity just to save having to say if(e.eventPhase == e.BUBBLING_PHASE) return;
# [01:01] <Hixie> the difference between nothing at all, and something at all, is significant, imho.
# [01:01] <Hixie> onload="if (e.target == window) start()" vs onload="start()"
# [01:01] <Dashiva> And 99% of the time mouseenter/leave is exactly what you want
# [01:01] <zewt> the difference between all events having the same dispatch semantics, and some bubbling and some not, is also significant
# [01:02] <smaug____> zewt: if(e.eventPhase == e.BUBBLING_PHASE) return; isn't enough
# [01:02] <zewt> too late to fix it now, but it should have been a flag on addEventListener
# [01:03] <zewt> smaug____: was trying to think if there are differences, but none came to mind
# [01:03] <zewt> (performance, maybe)
# [01:03] <Hixie> zewt: yeah i'm not saying i would have designed it this way from the start, certainly
# [01:03] <zewt> (but you're still going through capture phase)
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# [01:06] <smaug____> if you move mouse from being on top of subtree A to be on top of subtree B, all the elements in subtree A get a mouseleave and in B a mouseenter. But you'd get only one mouseout/mouseover
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# [01:09] <MikeSmith> Hixie: no indication of timeouts in the bugzilla server logs
# [01:10] <MikeSmith> and nobody else reporting anything as far as I know
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# [01:21] <Hixie> MikeSmith: odd
# [01:21] <Hixie> MikeSmith: might just be a Chrome dev issue
# [01:21] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i just get it intermittently
# [01:22] <MikeSmith> ok
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# [01:36] <TabAtkins> zewt: If you don't think mouseenter/leave make sense, then I'm not sure you've ever tried to do anything robust with mouseover/out.
# [01:37] <TabAtkins> Ah, reading further, yeah, you've probably never done anything with it. There are several complicated edge-cases to handle. It's *way* more than just worrying about doubling.
# [01:37] <TabAtkins> bubbling, rather.
# [01:37] <TabAtkins> Mousing over a child fires mouseout on your element, for example.
# [01:37] <SamB> that's an ... interesting choice ...
# [01:37] <TabAtkins> It's possible to have a mouseover without a corresponding mouseout, and vice versa.
# [01:38] <zewt> the discussion was about bubbling, not about any of that
# [01:38] <TabAtkins> SamB: It makes sense *for the chosen semantics of mouseover/out*.
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# [01:38] <TabAtkins> But those semantics don't match what people want most of the time.
# [01:38] <SamB> yeah, that's why I said interesting and not braindead
# [01:38] <zewt> and I was only talking about the difference between a non-bubbling event and just checking the event phase
# [01:39] <TabAtkins> zewt: Ah, ok. Yeah, a bubbling mouseenter would make sense, since you can check whether you're getting it for the element you want or not.
# [01:39] <SamB> so, presumably none of these four make sense bubbling?
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# [01:39] <zewt> every event makes sense bubbling (eg. delegation)
# [01:39] <SamB> oh, but the non-pairing doesn't really sound like a good idea
# [01:40] <zewt> (it could use a more concise way to check it, of course--these old DOM APIs aren't famous for being brief)
# [01:40] <SamB> hmm, well, if you just want to have one listener that feeds the events into a different API, sure
# [01:41] <SamB> however for your plain old onfoo= ...
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# [01:44] <zewt> i doubt any change would make sense today (we're already stuck with non-bubbling events) so i'm not really suggesting a change, but one approach would be for "non-bubbling" events to really mean event handlers (not listeners) ignore the event when in the bubble phase
# [01:44] <TabAtkins> Now *that* sounds really reasonable.
# [01:46] <Hixie> personally i'm pretty sure if i was designing this from scratch the entire approach would be quite different :-)
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# [01:46] <Hixie> maybe more based on promises or something
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# [01:48] <TabAtkins> Promises aren't suitable for repeating events, but something *like* promises is. I drew up some initial thoughts on the matter a while ago <http://www.xanthir.com/b4PV0>, and something like that should either pop out of Streams or show up independently soon enough.
# [01:56] <Hixie> mounir: i usually take patches and complaints of lacks of a spec as the firmest indication of interest short of shipping. :-)
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# [01:58] <a-ja> TabAtkins: ping
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# [02:08] <TabAtkins> a-ja: pong
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# [02:23] <TabAtkins> a-ja: ;_;
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# [02:26] <a-ja> TabAtkins: sorry....back now
# [02:26] <a-ja> TabAtkins: an observation re counter-styles
# [02:27] <a-ja> TabAtkins: predefined disclosure close arrow....shouldn't there be rtl and ltr versions?
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# [02:29] <TabAtkins> Yes, there should be.
# [02:29] <TabAtkins> I've had an open issue on that for a while, and haven't been sure how I want to handle it.
# [02:30] <a-ja> TabAtkins: thought it a good time to mention it....since there's patches in progress
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# [02:32] <a-ja> dependancy on dir() ?
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# [02:33] <TabAtkins> Yeah, probably.
# [02:34] <a-ja> perhaps in L2? dunno about timing
# [02:34] <TabAtkins> Either dir(), or a hypothetical "text as <image>" function + image() function with ltr/rtl keywords.
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# [02:35] <TabAtkins> The Counter Styles spec is still hovering in LC right now (like 3 months after the LC period ended) as people are implementing and finding bugs and necessary clarifications. So I can make the change now.
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# [02:36] <a-ja> TabAtkins: url for issue bug?
# [02:36] <TabAtkins> Doubt I have one, but I've recorded it for now in the list of bugs I'm trying to burn down at https://github.com/tabatkins/specs/issues/29
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# [02:43] <TabAtkins> a-ja: Out for the night, feel free to mention me here in chat or in email or in the github issue or anywhere else you think I might see it. ^_^
# [02:44] <a-ja> TabAtkins: different topic....colors4. an example of how to use named hues would probably be helpful. is it hsl(namedhue,?,?) or ?
# [02:44] <a-ja> TabAtkins: good night....take care
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# [07:21] <zcorpan> <http://www.w3.org/mid/CAPJYB1gDsLK5Oppjges-uTenQWHOuZy+GEAg=8sTy4A7iVXTTA@mail.gmail.com>
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# [07:28] <zcorpan> i guess i don't need https anymore
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# [07:31] <zcorpan> Hixie: for onload you'd need to check target == document :-)
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# [08:54] <heycam> Hixie, yeah, I'm behind on webidl editing. please point me to the relevant bug and I'll prioritise it.
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# [11:20] <aleray> hi, how would you markup the editor note of a paper
# [11:21] <aleray> ?
# [11:23] <aleray> eg. http://dpaste.com/1775599/
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# [11:26] <webben> aleray: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/sections.html#the-header-element possibly
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# [11:36] <aleray> webben, thanks
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# [11:47] <annevk_> JakeA: Hixie: if we are going to standardize requestautocomplete, should we at least use a promise?
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# [12:49] <JakeA> annevk_: the Chrome impl is getting promises. I posted a link to the ticket here earlier
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# [13:29] <annevk> JakeA: k
# [13:31] <JakeA> annevk: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=343630#c10
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# [13:55] <annevk> JakeA: so you removed non-GET methods from the cache API, but did you keep HEAD working?
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# [13:56] <JakeA> annevk: I need to add something for HEAD. It's only used in the matching, not the storage I guess
# [13:56] <annevk> JakeA: so there's the thing of doing a HEAD request and then updating the headers of a stored entry, but I'm not sure if we should support that
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# [13:59] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, more than happy to drop that. If we allow storing other methods we can do that then
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# [14:31] <jgraham> So I wonder what UK/London events would have participants also interested in doing Test The Web Forward. So far I didn't think of anything better than full frontal, which has the disadvantages of being in Brighton in November (just after TPAC I think), but the advantage of attrating the kind of people I would love to see at a TTWF event
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# [14:33] <Ms2ger> Something happens in Brighton?
# [14:36] <jgraham> I'm told lots of things happen in Brighton
# [14:36] <jgraham> (the main problem with Brighton is "can't use the Mozilla space conveniently")
# [14:37] <jgraham> remysharp: Any ideas? :)
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# [14:59] <annevk> jgraham: we could just try to host one on a Saturday
# [15:03] <jgraham> annevk: Sure
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# [15:04] <jgraham> annevk: My theory is that the participants they have had so far have been relatively untargeted and so we have been relatively ineffective at getting either great tests or retaining people
# [15:05] <jgraham> That might not be the right theory, but I wanted to test it by jumping on the coattails of a conference that attracts people who are already working in web development rather than mainly attracting students (which I think has been the case with TestTWF to date)
# [15:06] <jgraham> The idea being that getting those people the message that when they find browser bugs there is a simple way for then to contribute to getting the bugs fixed is good for the industry as a whole
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# [15:32] <annevk> jgraham: could ping Jeremy Keith too
# [15:32] <annevk> jgraham: and others
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# [17:01] <arunranga> annevk, ping
# [17:01] <annevk> arunranga: http://www.nohello.com/
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# [17:03] <arunranga> annevk, w.r.t. https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25302 I’d like to round up the loose ends in neutered Blobs. I think we can say that structured clones fail on a neutered Blob.
# [17:04] <arunranga> annevk, this will ensure that pre-neutering asynchronous operations on a Blob can take a structured clone.
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# [17:04] <arunranga> annevk, even if there’s a mid-operation neutering.
# [17:05] <arunranga> annevk, if we do this I this, I think you’ll have the pieces you need in affiliated specs, but don’t need a keepalive list of objects.
# [17:06] <annevk> yeah, I forgot how we already got around the whole being neutered thing using structured clones
# [17:06] <arunranga> annevk, sorry about preemptive pinging. I should have known better.
# [17:07] <arunranga> annevk, so I think if we explicitly say that Blobs that are CLOSED can be cloned, we’re ok. That way, operations on clones while still OPENED will work as intended in asynchronous settings.
# [17:07] <arunranga> s/can be cloned/cannot be cloned.
# [17:08] <annevk> yes, structured cloning should fail or some such
# [17:09] <annevk> still unclear to me what happens to closed blobs, does reading from them result in empty sequences?
# [17:09] <arunranga> annevk, but that still leaves the “status check” about how exactly to determine if a Blob is closed. I think there’s merit to the 0 byte approach, but zewt asks if there are any use cases in script for knowing if a Blob is neutered.
# [17:09] <arunranga> annevk, yes, I like the 0 byte approach
# [17:09] <arunranga> annevk, I’d like this to be what happens to neutered Blobs
# [17:10] <annevk> it might be a bit cumbersome to write the FormData serialization algorithm if some blobs end up being empty and cannot be cloned whereas others have to be cloned
# [17:10] <annevk> but maybe it's okay
# [17:10] <arunranga> I actually don’t think it will be cumbersome.
# [17:11] <arunranga> Why would a developer actually need a 0 byte Blob, for example? It seems rare that a non-neutered Blob will be 0 bytes
# [17:11] <arunranga> of course, you could do var blob = new Blob() but that alone isn’t terribly useful.
# [17:14] <annevk> I mean writing the serialization algorithm of FormData in the specification
# [17:14] <annevk> If neutered blobs cannot be cloned you end up with special code paths
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# [17:14] <annevk> But it should not be too bad I suppose
# [17:15] <arunranga> Hmmm
# [17:15] <SamB> hmm, what was that site with the "You had a problem" quotes?
# [17:16] <SamB> or however that's phrased
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# [17:46] <zewt> i very strongly dislike the 0-byte thing; it's a bad, hacky API, it breaks with actual 0-byte files, it sacrifices the blob size being immutable, it forces developers to cache the size if they want it after closing (progress meters, etc)
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# [17:47] <zewt> you'll easily get 0-byte blobs, as soon as you use <input type=file> and a user opens an empty file
# [17:47] <SamB> aren't there, like, negative numbers that could be used if magic numbers are needed?
# [17:48] <zewt> if we want to expose the closedness of a blob, add a property. i don't see why we would use the size property for that at all
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# [17:52] <annevk> why would you want to cache the size of the original object?
# [17:53] <annevk> you just neutered it
# [17:55] <zewt> you might still be using the size, eg. setTimeout(function() { progress.innerText = (totalBytesSent*100 / blob.size) + "%"; }, 500)
# [17:55] <zewt> now suddenly that shows 0 or NaN% or whatever
# [17:56] <zewt> i gave a similar example on the bug
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# [18:03] * annevk shrugs
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# [18:05] <zewt> ...
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# [18:05] <zewt> it's a bizarre, hacky, unexpected API with no redeeming values. hopefully we can do better than "shrugs"
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# [18:08] <jgraham> I think zewt has a point here. I'm not sure what problem this is trying to solve
# [18:11] <arunranga> zewt, jgraham: I suppose if we specify that ALL operations on neutered Blob objects fail at the API level, then maybe we don’t need to expose this, even as a property.
# [18:11] <zewt> what do you mean "fail at the API level"?
# [18:11] <zewt> i think that sync APIs should always *not* fail
# [18:12] <arunranga> zewt, I mean: FileReader.readAsXxx should fail and report an error asynchronously
# [18:12] <zewt> for reasons I mentioned earlier (minimizes the surface area of the "closed blob" feature, fewer error cases for developers to have to handle, etc)
# [18:12] <zewt> ah, OK
# [18:12] <arunranga> zewt, we’ll have to reason through what other things fail.
# [18:13] <arunranga> But when you say sync APIs should always *not* fail, do you mean, not throw?
# [18:13] <arunranga> So FileReaderSync probaby has to throw in this case
# [18:14] <arunranga> Affiliated APIs, including URL.createObjectURL and URL.createFor, won’t “fail” but will generate a URL that results in a network error.
# [18:14] <zewt> sync versions of async APIs are an exception
# [18:15] <zewt> maybe it's more precise to say that the only thing that should fail is attempts to access the data inside the blob, and it should fail in the same way that the API normally fails
# [18:15] <arunranga> zewt, ok, I’m coming round to this.
# [18:15] <zewt> sync fetch APIs fail by throwing an exception, so that's OK--that's the error handling the user has anyway for using that API
# [18:16] <Hixie> annevk: not clear to me how promises would actually work for rAc
# [18:16] <zewt> (eg. FileReaderSync() against a File that the user has deleted)
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# [18:18] <Hixie> annevk: and you still have to fire the input/change/invalid events, so it's not like it takes you away from events.
# [18:18] <annevk> Hixie: yeah, didn't realize that
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# [18:22] <arunranga> zewt, I guess that leaves .slice(), which you think should do what it does normally with byte sequences, but simply neuter the output.
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# [18:25] <zewt> arunranga: say you have a black-box API readZipFileFooter(blob), which slices the end of the blob and reads it ... if I pass in a closed blob, it'll cause an error along a typical code path (during the read), instead of throwing an exception in slice(), which that function is probably much less likely to handle
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# [18:26] <arunranga> zewt, yup, makes perfect sense to me. Can’t argue with that.
# [18:26] <zewt> an API might parse out a ZIP into a list of filename: (start, size) items, and let you say zip.openFile(filename), which does { var info = data[filename]; return this.blob.slice(info.start, info.end); }, which also makes sense to just propagate the closed-ness instead of failing
# [18:28] <arunranga> zewt, but I guess this does mean that you can access properties of closed Blobs such as size, which the 0 byte approach addressed but perhaps hackishly.
# [18:28] <arunranga> so I’m determining whether this is a Bad Thing.
# [18:28] <zewt> but i'm saying that the size should remain unchanged
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# [18:29] <zewt> (and other similar properties, like File's .type)
# [18:29] <arunranga> I see what you’re saying. I’m trying to determine if that results in anything bad/inconsistent happening.
# [18:30] <arunranga> For instance, a developer might do a if(file.size != 0) test before a read operation
# [18:30] <arunranga> Which would fail anyway on a closed Blob.
# [18:30] <zewt> what would be the purpose of that test?
# [18:31] <arunranga> Well, the purpose of that test would be to see if you’ve got a readable file with bytes to be read
# [18:31] <arunranga> But, the Blob is in fact closed. The bytes cannot be read.
# [18:31] <zewt> then that test would be wrong; the read might fail anyway, such as if it's a File pointing to a userspace file that the user has deleted
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# [18:32] <arunranga> zewt, right; but that’s because of the snapshot condition
# [18:32] <arunranga> Which is a failure that’s not programmatically determinable from within the sandbox.
# [18:33] <arunranga> But a check for neutered objects might need to be.
# [18:33] <zewt> but if(file.size != 0) is not a test for whether you can read from the file
# [18:33] <arunranga> zewt, yes, it’s not a reliable test.
# [18:33] <zewt> (by the way, since this ended up being a different thing than "neutered", we should probably not call it that)
# [18:34] <arunranga> zewt, well, even with Blob.close() we’re going to prohibit structured cloning I think
# [18:34] <zewt> i don't think we should do that, either
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# [18:34] <annevk> zewt: most APIs when you neuter them their attributes will return some kind of initial value
# [18:34] <annevk> zewt: e.g. ArrayBuffer
# [18:35] <arunranga> zewt, I think it would help with FormData (and your proposal) if we can’t structured clone on a .close()
# [18:35] <zewt> arunranga: how?
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# [18:36] <zewt> seems like it makes it easier, actually
# [18:36] <zewt> (if you can)
# [18:38] <arunranga> Ah wait. You’re right. In the case of FormData, the structured clone won’t create a normal point of failure upon close, but the read will.
# [18:38] <zewt> eg. you structured clone the Blob synchronously at the start; if the blob was closed, you don't fail there, you fail later when you try to use the clone (in the same spec code path where you handle other read errors)
# [18:38] <arunranga> I guess this does reduce the “points of failure.”
# [18:39] <arunranga> annevk, would it be ok if neutering a blob doesn’t affect its ability to be cloned?
# [18:40] <zewt> it seems nicer for postMessage, etc. too: if I want to post a FileList containing 100 files and I've closed one or two of them, just let me do it without making a new FileList with the closed blobs removed
# [18:40] <annevk> arunranga: per the HTML spec it currently throws
# [18:40] <annevk> arunranga: I don't really care
# [18:41] <zewt> i was planning on filing a bug on HTML about structured clone, but only after the stuff inside file api itself was decided
# [18:41] <annevk> arunranga: I think it would make sense to expose isClosed
# [18:42] <arunranga> zewt, your bug would be to allow structured cloning of neutered objects?
# [18:42] <zewt> yeah
# [18:42] <arunranga> zewt, based on the same “limit the points of failure” reasoning, or some other reasoning?
# [18:43] <zewt> well, if the effect of blob.close() is defined as something like "act as though the underlying file was deleted", then disallowing cloning doesn't make sense--structured clone doesn't throw if a File's file is deleted, for example
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# [18:44] <annevk> arunranga: why is it defined as neutuered and not as closed?
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# [18:45] <zewt> arunranga: oh, my bug would probably be specifically for closed Blobs (with a side note of "i think this should apply to neutered objects like ArrayBuffer as well")
# [18:45] <arunranga> annevk: that should change, I think.
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# [18:45] <arunranga> annevk: I think terminology is misleading.
# [18:45] <arunranga> annevk, though they are similar.
# [18:45] <annevk> arunranga: not really, neutering happens as the result of a transfer
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# [18:46] <zewt> transfer is a user of neutering, neutering isn't tied to transfer (but that's a whole long separate discussion that I've given up on)
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# [18:46] <arunranga> annevk, well, I’m going to kill the word ‘neuter’
# [18:47] <arunranga> (it should be used consistently to mean one thing. By re-using it in FileAPI, I’ve created a confusion bug)
# [18:48] <zewt> (i thought that had already been changed, but I guess I thought that since it was changed in HTML, which says "disabled through the close() method")
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# [18:49] <arunranga> well if annevk doesn’t really care about whether .close() affects cloning, it may as well not affect cloning, and rather, only affect reading.
# [18:50] <arunranga> I think FileAPI should position success and failure as reading bytes success and failure anyway. I agree with the bugs that push in this direction.
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# [19:28] <Hixie> heycam|away: why are trailing commas in enum descriptions not valid?
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# [20:54] <Domenic_> bahaha http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/82309160313/philosoraptor-couldnt-sleep-last-night-so-she
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# [20:57] <Hixie> for whomever posted http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/image/82219740533 - i present to you http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1056847759&count=1
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# [20:59] <arunranga> Domenic_ I’ll soon expunge “neutered” from the FileAPI spec. They’ll simply be closed.
# [21:00] <arunranga> :-)
# [21:00] <Domenic_> seems good :)
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# [21:19] <arunranga> Domenic_, is AbortableProgressPromise something that we should expect to land as a real thing? I’m using it in spec, but handwaving a bit.
# [21:19] <Domenic_> arunranga: no, definitely not
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# [21:20] <Domenic_> arunranga: Progress is almost certainly dead. Cancellation/abortion is probably going to happen at some point though so collecting spec use cases would be helpful. Still early days.
# [21:20] <arunranga> Domenic_, uh-oh. Fx has a sandboxed version of FileSystem API hat uses something a lot like it :-)
# [21:20] <arunranga> Domenic_, to be honest, I don’t hate AbortableProgressPromise.
# [21:20] <Domenic_> Progress generally means you should be using streams :P. And yes, I'm aware we need to pick up the pace there.
# [21:20] <arunranga> Domenic_, but I just want something that addresses the use case.
# [21:21] <Domenic_> Actually both of those are better addressed by streams...
# [21:21] <Domenic_> Promises should be for one-and-done, non-interruptible, atomic-ish operations
# [21:21] <darobin> that's what she said
# [21:22] <TabAtkins> Promises are definitely abortable if you want them to be, though - you just have to extract and vend the reject function yourself.
# [21:22] <TabAtkins> Exposing them primitively for cases that could use them makes sense to me.
# [21:23] <Domenic_> that's true. That's a good way to look at it.
# [21:23] <TabAtkins> (You can convert any normal promise into an abortable one by wrapping it in a promise of your own, passing accept and reject to the normal promise and leaking the reject outside of your promise as well.)
# [21:23] * arunranga gives darobin scowly smile
# [21:23] <TabAtkins> I'm much less convinced about progress, though.
# [21:23] <Domenic_> Abortion usually implies that it has some impact back to the promise creator though. It's not only a capability-vending, but always a backward communication channel
# [21:24] <TabAtkins> Domenic_: Yeah, true, so the op usually does more than *just* reject.
# [21:24] <Domenic_> We are prototyping an interesting alternative to progress (viz. estimated time of arrival) in user-space. So far it composes much better. But it's very very early days for that.
# [21:24] <Domenic_> s/always/also/
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# [21:26] <arunranga> TabAtkins, I’d like to use something like AbortableProgresPromise for an operation like FileHandleWritable in http://w3c.github.io/filesystem-api/Overview.html#the-directory-interface
# [21:26] <arunranga> To write some bytes, and then abort.
# [21:26] <TabAtkins> Right, I'm not saying that progress monitoring is a bad thing, I'm just not convinced it's best modeled as a Promise extension.
# [21:27] <TabAtkins> I dithered over this a bit in my EventStream proposal.
# [21:27] <Domenic_> arunranga: "write some bytes then abort" sounds exactly like streams...
# [21:27] <Domenic_> arunranga: what is the timeline on this FS API?
# [21:28] <arunranga> Domenic_, yes, you’re right; it’s streamlike, but streams aren’t forthcoming. We’re left with Blobs and whatnot.
# [21:28] <Domenic_> arunranga: who says streams aren't forthcoming!?
# [21:28] <arunranga> Domenic_, well, the timeline, as of today, is “a more specifc draft will land in two-ish weeks.”
# [21:28] <arunranga> Domenic_, huzzah! Tell me what I don’t know. Where have Streams been my whole life?
# [21:30] <Domenic_> arunranga: https://github.com/whatwg/streams !
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# [21:30] <Domenic_> we're closing in on something pretty close to final
# [21:30] <Domenic_> TCP and UDP sockets spec is based on them
# [21:30] <Domenic_> https://rawgithub.com/ClaesNilsson/raw-sockets/gh-pages/index.html
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# [21:31] <Domenic_> arunranga: if you give me deadlines I can push myself to meet them. right now what I have is "everyone wants this yesterday."
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# [21:33] <arunranga> Heh, well… sounds like you’re going to land this as a WHATWG draft soon-ish. If you land in two weeks, I can bash out details left in FileSystem.
# [21:33] <Domenic_> two weeks!! Can do.
# [21:33] <Domenic_> important question: do those two weeks include three weekends, or two weekends?
# [21:33] <Domenic_> (i.e., is it Monday, or is it Friday)
# [21:33] <arunranga> If that’s unreasonable, push back :-) There isn’t really too much “fall off the cliff” pressure about FileSystem, TBH. It’s already in Firefox, but sandboxed (and uses constructs that you disapprove of based on the above ^^). And, user agents are exactly beating down our door with support.
# [21:34] <Domenic_> nah two weeks sounds like a perfect incentive
# [21:34] <arunranga> I mean, are not exactly.
# [21:34] <Domenic_> tyoshino ^
# [21:34] <arunranga> So, take two weekends, if you aren’t slammed? Three if you are?
# [21:34] <arunranga> I’m not totally blocked on you.
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# [21:34] <arunranga> I can tweak other things.
# [21:34] <Domenic_> Sounds good :)
# [21:35] <arunranga> But should also fix my FileAPI bugs *mumble mumble*
# [21:35] <Domenic_> I want streams to succeed and FS is like use case #1 for streams so I am very motivated to make them work for you.
# [21:36] * darobin looks at arunranga sheepishly
# [21:36] <arunranga> Domenic_ oooh synergy!
# [21:37] <arunranga> Domenic_ well, we’ll have to unleash sicking on you :-) He’s got strong opinions about Streams vs. AbortableProgressPromise, etc.
# [21:38] <arunranga> Also, the use cases are legion.
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# [21:46] <Domenic_> arunranga: haha great. I talked streams with sicking recently at the TAG meeting but we didn't talk about vs. AbortableProgressPromise in particular.
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# [22:06] <tyoshino> o
# [22:06] <Ms2ger> p
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# [22:08] <sicking> Domenic_: streams and AbortableProgressPromise actually has quite different use cases. But we should definitely add streams to filesystem
# [22:09] <sicking> Domenic_: filesystem needs both async-generator "object Streams", as well as IO streams
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# [22:10] <Domenic_> sicking: object streams being for e.g. directory listings?
# [22:10] <sicking> Domenic_: yup
# [22:10] <Domenic_> yeah interestingly even node.js doesn't have those
# [22:10] <sicking> iirc it's only needed for directory listings
# [22:10] <tyoshino> sg
# [22:10] <sicking> Domenic_: oh! node.js just returns an array with all the names?
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# [22:10] <Domenic_> sicking: yeah, it's kind of embarassing
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# [22:11] <sicking> hehe
# [22:11] <sicking> Domenic_: hopefully we can do better :)
# [22:11] <sicking> Domenic_: and then have node.js implement our filesystem
# [22:12] <Domenic_> yesss
# [22:12] <tyoshino> http://nodejs.org/api/fs.html#fs_fs_readdir_path_callback
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# [22:13] <sicking> Domenic_: and have filesystem https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BRXmgcBHBM#t=75
# [22:13] * sicking hopes he got the right quote.
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# Session Close: Fri Apr 11 00:00:00 2014

The end :)