/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-04-11 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  95. # [03:39] <TabAtkins> a-ja: I just looked at Counter Styles, and discovered that I'd already taken directionality into account.
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  97. # [03:42] <a-ja> TabAtkins: k...will have a re-read.
  98. # [03:42] <TabAtkins> I do so in prose, rather than in code.
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  100. # [03:44] <a-ja> TabAtkins: verticality handled, too? i.e. tb and bt ?
  101. # [03:44] <TabAtkins> I just say that if it's directional, it must correspond to the writing mode of the element.
  102. # [03:44] <TabAtkins> And expect that, via magic, it'll work.
  103. # [03:46] <a-ja> TabAtkins: had a look at the moz patch....looks like it handles directionality with some magic hand-wavy code, rather than in ua stylesheet. will have to test overriding styles once it's ready for testing
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  105. # [03:48] <Domenic_> ugh DOM forked again. https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25021
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  226. # [10:37] <annevk> darobin: so how is adding Attr.prototype.ownerElement preserving a subset?
  227. # [10:38] <annevk> seems like that statement was full of shit
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  231. # [10:52] <Ms2ger> I'm surprised.
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  246. # [12:34] <annevk> Just read a bunch of forum topics on indexes vs indices
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  249. # [12:34] <annevk> To fix a bug in shift_jis's encoder
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  255. # [12:45] <annevk> Anyone a good short name for "HTML decimal numeric character reference"
  256. # [12:47] <SimonSapin> annevk: if they context implies "some way to deal with code points", maybe just "html"?
  257. # [12:47] <SimonSapin> as in "the html error handling" vs. "the strict error handling"
  258. # [12:49] <annevk> HTML error mode*
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  260. # [12:56] <annevk> Bit torn on whether I should adopt the terms "character" and "Unicode character"
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  262. # [12:58] <SimonSapin> Sounds bad to use both. If they’re the same, pick one. If they’re not, the difference might be too subtle (as in, readers maybe will not notice they’re not the same)
  263. # [13:00] <annevk> HTML uses those terms meaning code point and Unicode scalar value
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  271. # [13:30] <SimonSapin> well, my opinion above still applies
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  275. # [13:45] <JakeA> annevk: hey
  276. # [13:45] <JakeA> annevk: yt?
  277. # [13:46] <annevk> JakeA: yup
  278. # [13:46] <JakeA> annevk: I'm typing a question
  279. # [13:46] <JakeA> annevk: Going to type it now
  280. # [13:46] * JakeA types
  281. # [13:46] <JakeA> annevk: re .add on caches, do you see it resolving before everything downloads?
  282. # [13:46] <annevk> SimonSapin: it seems worse to have different terms
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  284. # [13:47] <annevk> JakeA: i was just wondering whether you'd report success/failure
  285. # [13:47] <annevk> JakeA: seems like you wouldn't necessarily expose the response objects
  286. # [13:47] <JakeA> (someone just hello'd me, so I thought I'd pass on the pain)
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  288. # [13:47] <annevk> heh
  289. # [13:48] <JakeA> annevk: Yeah, that makes sense. Returning responses felt like something to return, but I can't think of a good use of it.
  290. # [13:49] <JakeA> annevk: actually, you're right, since .add(fiveItems) can result in less-than 5 items being added, we shouldn't resolve with responses
  291. # [13:49] <JakeA> Will update the ticket
  292. # [13:51] <annevk> JakeA: given that, .add(...items) makes sense...
  293. # [13:51] <annevk> JakeA: it seems the preferred style is arity
  294. # [13:52] <JakeA> annevk: unless the input should map to output, like Promise.all
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  297. # [13:57] <annevk> yeah
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  303. # [14:19] <annevk> hsivonen: do you think the operations for arithmetic in http://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/#terminology are sufficiently defined?
  304. # [14:20] <annevk> hsivonen: also, if you could provide guidance on how algorithms could be rewritten as you asked for in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24198 that'd be appreciated
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  349. # [16:36] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: Stop making statements that I want to +1, because that's unproductive!
  350. # [16:37] <SimonSapin> gsnedders: about character vs. Unicode character?
  351. # [16:37] <gsnedders> Yeah
  352. # [16:37] <SimonSapin> well that statement itself was not very productive since I don’t have a better suggestion
  353. # [16:38] <gsnedders> :)
  354. # [16:38] * gsnedders votes for just using code point and Unicode scalar value
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  357. # [16:39] <SimonSapin> but Unicode scalar value is so bleh
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  360. # [16:41] <jgraham> Why "scalar"? Is there also a "Unicode vector value"?
  361. # [16:42] <SimonSapin> who knows
  362. # [16:42] <zcorpan> Hixie: i wontfixed your suggestion to rename source https://github.com/ResponsiveImagesCG/picture-element/issues/133
  363. # [16:42] <SimonSapin> http://www.unicode.org/glossary/#unicode_scalar_value
  364. # [16:42] <gsnedders> No, but it makes us just use the underlying terminology, which seems easier than people having to know that Unicode character == Unicode scalar value and then the definition of that.
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  368. # [16:44] <SimonSapin> maybe omit the "Unicode"? http://www.unicode.org/glossary/#scalar_value
  369. # [16:44] <SimonSapin> (just like we omit it in "Unicode code point")
  370. # [16:46] <SimonSapin> but "scalar value" by itself has no indication it has anything to do with text
  371. # [16:55] <gsnedders> Yeah
  372. # [16:55] <zcorpan> call it "value"
  373. # [16:56] <SimonSapin> object, or node
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  378. # [17:03] <SimonSapin> more seriously: annevk, how about "(Unicode) character" as an alias for "Unicode scalar value", and "(Unicode) code point" for itself?
  379. # [17:03] <SimonSapin> Hixie: same for HTML ^
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  381. # [17:06] <Ms2ger> It's probably a good idea to make our specs match
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  384. # [17:15] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: I dislike character because of its multitude of Unicode definitions
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  386. # [17:17] * dglazkov_ is now known as dglazkov
  387. # [17:19] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  390. # [17:22] <jcgregorio> morning dglazkov!
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  400. # [17:40] <annevk> SimonSapin: I went with scalar value an hour ago or so
  401. # [17:40] <annevk> SimonSapin: happy to rename once someone else sorts this out
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  403. # [17:41] <SimonSapin> I’m not sure who you expect someone else to be
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  406. # [17:44] <annevk> yup
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  442. # [19:08] <Hixie> zcorpan: if you reuse <source>, then you're taking over the whole media section as well. there's no way i'm speccing this mistake.
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  446. # [19:11] <TabAtkins> SamB: I've got the IE version of that guy's picture: https://twitter.com/tabatkins
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  451. # [19:14] <jgraham> Hixie: That doesn't seem like a good way to deal with the situation. From the bug it didn't appear that you had established the critical difference between this instance of reusing an element name in multiple contexts and other instances of the same (including the existing reuse of <source>)
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  453. # [19:19] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Yes - as far as I can tell (as I explained in the bug), this is no more troublesome than the existing reuse of <source> in <video> and <audio>.
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  475. # [19:56] <Hixie> TabAtkins: <video> and <audio> are the same element, in the spec, essentially.
  476. # [19:56] <Hixie> TabAtkins: and <source> with <video> and <audio> is a huge pain even then
  477. # [19:56] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i'm willing to pay the cost of making that mistake, since i made it
  478. # [19:57] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i'm not willing to pay the cost of someone else making the same mistake even after i warned them not to
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  488. # [20:19] <SamB> TabAtkins: hmm, I can't say I recognize that precise icon; it looks just a little too simple somehow
  489. # [20:20] * SamB wonders what the significance of 앳켄스 탭 may be ... wonders why unifont borrowed hangul from such a heavy font
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  494. # [20:25] <SamB> TabAtkins: also why did you make the text on your page xanthir.com invisible?
  495. # [20:25] * SamB goes to open it in elinks
  496. # [20:27] <SimonSapin> Hixie: how is this a mistake / what is the cost?
  497. # [20:31] <Hixie> i've explained this multiple times over the past few years
  498. # [20:31] <Hixie> but basically:
  499. # [20:31] <Hixie> whenever your processing model involves multiple elements, it is exponentially more complicated to spec
  500. # [20:31] <Hixie> you have to handle mutations, shadow DOMs, non-atomic parsing, non-atomic scripted creation, etc
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  502. # [20:31] <Hixie> and every time we've done this, we've ended up finding edge case errors for _years_ afterwards
  503. # [20:31] <Hixie> i mean, i'm literally _still_ dealing with obscure spec bugs around <source>
  504. # [20:32] <Hixie> race conditions, unexpected DOM states, etc
  505. # [20:32] <Hixie> but i already went through all this years ago, that's why i didn't spec <picture> in the first place, and i specced srcset="" instead
  506. # [20:32] <Hixie> i wrote long e-mails to the whatwg list explaining this
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  508. # [20:33] <Hixie> at this point, if people want to keep ignoring my feedback on this, then that's fine, but at least don't make me pay the cost
  509. # [20:38] <SimonSapin> so the problem is not having the name "source" re-used, but having multiple elements for one (media) "unit"?
  510. # [20:39] <hober> there are two problems
  511. # [20:39] <hober> 1) using multiple elements is a bad idea
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  513. # [20:39] <hober> 2) if you insist on using multiple elements, naming one of them "source" entangles your mistake with Hixie's prior mistake
  514. # [20:39] <Hixie> right
  515. # [20:40] <Hixie> so then we have to figure out the interactions of both in obscure ways
  516. # [20:40] <Hixie> if it wasn't a mistake, i'd have no problem reusing the same element name
  517. # [20:41] <Hixie> and i'd have no problem taking responsibility for speccing it
  518. # [20:41] <Hixie> (or even if it was a mistake, but i didn't know yet)
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  523. # [20:48] <SamB> TabAtkins: also I think we do reverse the seasons on the other side of the equator, and I hear some places have only *two* seasons ...
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  525. # [20:52] <Hixie> california has several seasons, but they're distributed geographically rather than chronologically...
  526. # [20:56] * arunranga that’s called a Hixism ^^
  527. # [20:59] <jgraham> The flip side is that zcorpan (and others) did a lot of work to minimise the badness of the multiple elements, learning from the prior experience, and that people seem to have a strong preference for a multiple-element design
  528. # [21:01] <Hixie> that he had to do a lot of work is kind of the point
  529. # [21:02] <Hixie> anyway, i'm not saying this shouldn't be in the spec, especially if browsers implement it. i've already talked with zcorpan about how we're going to integrate it.
  530. # [21:02] <hober> is more than one browser going to implement it?
  531. # [21:02] <Hixie> basically, he's gonna own the parts that are affected by this, and they'll get merged in during publication
  532. # [21:02] <TabAtkins> SamB: The icon is the IE broken image icon. (And it's fooled IE engineers before!)
  533. # [21:02] <Hixie> hober: i hope not, but people are claiming they've conned both mozilla and chrome into doing it (ahem)
  534. # [21:02] <TabAtkins> SamB: 앳켄스 탭 is my name in Hangul.
  535. # [21:02] * SamB wonders if there couldn't be a framework to allow sanity AND multi-element stuff
  536. # [21:03] <TabAtkins> SamB: And finally, the text is invisible because the text-shadow si doing the rendering (to enable the animated blur effect).
  537. # [21:03] <SamB> TabAtkins: well I don't see it in Firefox 24 ...
  538. # [21:03] <Hixie> SamB: the problems are pretty deeply integrated into how the DOM works (and are only gonna get worse with things like Shadow DOM)
  539. # [21:04] <TabAtkins> SamB: Hm, I have both -moz-prefixed versions and unprefixed.
  540. # [21:05] <SamB> do you want me to look again and check for warnings?
  541. # [21:05] <SamB> okay, it's working now
  542. # [21:05] <SamB> oh, it disappeared again now
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  547. # [21:11] <Hixie> TabAtkins: ping https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25026
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  556. # [21:38] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, is this something we don't support unprefixed?
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  569. # [22:09] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: I dunno, you definitely support one or the other, and I have both.
  570. # [22:09] <TabAtkins> SamB: What do you mean? What's happening?
  571. # [22:10] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, I was wondering if I should ask you to remove the prefix :)
  572. # [22:12] <TabAtkins> I'll do whatever, it's old code and I'm happy to update. Dunno what all I can remove right now, though.
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  574. # [22:15] <SamB> oh maybe I have blink turned off
  575. # [22:15] <Ms2ger> Less prefixes proliferating is generally good :)
  576. # [22:15] <Ms2ger> (Fewer?)
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  583. # [22:29] <TabAtkins> SamB: Turning off <blink> would only affect the blinking cursor.
  584. # [22:30] <TabAtkins> SamB: Why are you on FF 24?
  585. # [22:30] <TabAtkins> Aurora is 28 right now - you're a version or two behind.
  586. # [22:30] <SamB> because I have an irrational fear that if I switch from ESR to mainline that I'll end up regretting it
  587. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> Well, you regret your current choice, because it's somehwo broken.
  588. # [22:32] <SamB> actually I think I care more about how badly the devtools are doing at helping me see what's wrong ;-)
  589. # [22:33] <TabAtkins> Yeah, being 4 versions behind would exacerbate that.
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  591. # [22:37] * SamB ponders looking into having multiple installs ...
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  593. # [22:39] <SamB> what is aurora doing at 28, anyway, when there already seem to be a 30 and a 31?
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  599. # [22:47] <nephyrin> SamB: Aurora is currently 30
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  611. # [23:03] <TabAtkins> Hah, so my install is behind as well.
  612. # [23:03] <TabAtkins> Oh, no, I'm not even on Aurora.
  613. # [23:03] <TabAtkins> Just stable channel.
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  615. # [23:09] <SamB> hmm, I'm a bit confused though because I just looked at Firefox's download tree and they don't have anything for 30 or 31 yet
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  617. # [23:09] <SamB> I only saw those versions in Firebug release announcements
  618. # [23:14] <svl> http://nightly.mozilla.org/ has 31, http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/aurora/ has 30 - stable is on 28
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  626. # [23:38] <Hixie> tantek: it was brought to my attention that you are under the mistaken belief that w3c specs can't reference whatwg specs
  627. # [23:39] <Hixie> tantek: HTML5.1 references several wikis, guides on the w3c site, unicode technical reports and notes, the CLDR, several WHATWG specs, editor's drafts of w3c specs, pages on github, graphviz.org, the ES6 draft, IANA registries, mozilla developer docs, publicsuffix.org, torproject.org, and a random page on rniwa.com
  628. # [23:39] <Hixie> tantek: so i don't think that's accurate
  629. # [23:42] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
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  640. # Session Close: Sat Apr 12 00:00:00 2014

The end :)