/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-04-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Apr 12 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  12. # [00:21] <arunranga> Hixie, tantek: I really *hope* that we can cross-reference. File API does pretty liberally (e.g. url.spec.whatwg.org, amongst others, including mimesniff). FileSystem might. Others within WebApps do.
  13. # [00:21] <Hixie> we clearly can
  14. # [00:21] <Hixie> lots of specs do
  15. # [00:21] <arunranga> Hixie, tantek, these references are also normative. So, disabuse me if I’m wrong to do so.
  16. # [00:21] <Hixie> it'd be pretty funny if the whatwg decided to instigate a policy of not referencing w3c docs
  17. # [00:22] <Hixie> and then forked all the specs needed to work around that
  18. # [00:22] <Domenic_> all the DOM4 references I see make me sad. Just reference the real DOM.
  19. # [00:23] <arunranga> Hixie, unless there’s a patent-ish sense here about cross-references opening a backdoor to thwart licensing declarations, I can’t think of a reason not to do that.
  20. # [00:23] <Hixie> there isn't
  21. # [00:23] * arunranga tempest in a teacup then :)
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  25. # [00:24] <Hixie> the forking isn't "in a teacup", it's causing real harm and confusion
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  29. # [00:29] <sgalineau> Hixie: examples of harm and confusion?
  30. # [00:29] <Hixie> IE follows one spec, Chrome follows another.
  31. # [00:30] <Hixie> Web authors ask me about a bug that's fixed in one and not the other.
  32. # [00:30] <Hixie> people don't know if features are in or out because different specs disagree.
  33. # [00:30] <Hixie> i get e-mails at least weekly, often more, from people confused about this stuff one way or another.
  34. # [00:30] <sgalineau> I think you're assuming IE follows one spec out of confusion instead of deliberately
  35. # [00:31] <Hixie> whether it's deliberate or not, it's harm
  36. # [00:31] <sgalineau> sure, but is it super different from two browsers implementing two versions of the same spec a few months apart
  37. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> Yes, because there's a single obvious answer when anyone asks what the right behavior is.
  38. # [00:32] <sgalineau> fair
  39. # [00:33] <sgalineau> and to be clear, I do find the situation crazy. OTOH folks complain about w3schools confusing things then we turn around and fork stuff for unclear reasons (when there is a reason)
  40. # [00:34] <Hixie> it's also harm in more subtle ways, like, all the effort that could be spent editing specs that desperately need editing, but have no editors, is instead spent redundantly editing specs that already have editors.
  41. # [00:34] <sgalineau> still, is the mess documented someplace? even part of it?
  42. # [00:35] <Hixie> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#WHATWG_and_the_W3C_HTML_WG
  43. # [00:35] <Hixie> and the w3c "landscape" doc
  44. # [00:35] <Hixie> (but that's woefully incomplete)
  45. # [00:35] <Hixie> but even i don't have a clear idea of what the full extent of the mess is
  46. # [00:36] <Hixie> and it's not just w3c vs whatwg
  47. # [00:36] <Hixie> there's also the problem of w3c vs w3c
  48. # [00:36] <sgalineau> right
  49. # [00:37] <sgalineau> it's a bit like we're going <spec><source...><source...><source...></spec>
  50. # [00:37] <sgalineau> 'what could go wrong?'
  51. # [00:38] <Hixie> e.g. http://damowmow.com/temp/canvas-specs
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  53. # [00:39] <Hixie> none of that would be a problem if the w3c hadn't forked the whatwg spec (let alone forked it apparently 27 times)
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  55. # [00:40] <sgalineau> I wonder if it's worth collecting a bunch of examples like these for the new TAG. Not that they don't know but I've never seen the evidence marshalled in a single place (may have missed it though)
  56. # [00:40] <sgalineau> though it might be too late
  57. # [00:41] <Hixie> wtf can the TAG do about it
  58. # [00:41] <Hixie> they have no authority
  59. # [00:42] <sgalineau> I don't think there is a single authority involved. got to start somewhere + some of the folks there are able to make some public noise about it
  60. # [00:42] <Hixie> there's one single authority who could fix all this. Jeff Jaffe.
  61. # [00:42] <sgalineau> what would he do?
  62. # [00:43] <sgalineau> besides a memo saying 'don't do that'
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  64. # [00:44] <Hixie> well a memo would be a fine start, but then he could also enforce it.
  65. # [00:44] <Hixie> e.g. delete any forked spec.
  66. # [00:44] <Hixie> deprecate the TR/ page.
  67. # [00:44] <Hixie> etc.
  68. # [00:44] <sgalineau> which won't happen without enough members believing it is a problem they need to fix
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  70. # [00:45] <Hixie> he's the CEO. He can do whatever he wants with or without members.
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  72. # [00:45] <Hixie> in fact, if I was the CEO, the first thing I would do is disband the AC, followed by dropping the concept of paid membership.
  73. # [00:45] <sgalineau> not really. he funds his organization from the members.
  74. # [00:45] <Hixie> the third thing i would do is fire all the staff, thus solving the funding problem.
  75. # [00:45] <sgalineau> lol
  76. # [00:46] <sgalineau> sure, but you're not the CEO
  77. # [00:46] <sgalineau> so, in the meantime...
  78. # [00:46] <Hixie> but he is, and he could do that.
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  80. # [00:46] <Hixie> the whatwg is funded out of my pocket
  81. # [00:47] <sgalineau> he could ride into the TPAC plenary day on a pony, too
  82. # [00:47] <sgalineau> all fascinating hypotheticals but I doubt they lead to a practical solution
  83. # [00:47] <Hixie> my point is that it's his responsibility, and he has the authority.
  84. # [00:47] <Hixie> that's all.
  85. # [00:47] <Hixie> he clearly has decided not to solve these problems, though.
  86. # [00:47] <Hixie> even though he could.
  87. # [00:48] <Hixie> (i'd also cancel tpac.)
  88. # [00:48] <sgalineau> You could argue all CEOs have the authority to fold their own organization and that by doing so they'd eliminate all the issues within.
  89. # [00:48] <sgalineau> That may be 100% true but it's not a particularly interesting argument.
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  91. # [00:49] <Hixie> i didn't say it should fold.
  92. # [00:49] <Hixie> and in most cases, it wouldn't solve the problems
  93. # [00:49] <Hixie> the w3c is a special case in that respect.
  94. # [00:51] <Hixie> standards organisations, imho, should not have paid memberships. It totally screws up the incentives for the people running the organisation.
  95. # [00:51] <Hixie> the W3C is a case study in that.
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  98. # [00:52] <sgalineau> I'm not sure how eliminating paid membership prevents forking but I think we've wandered away from the topic here...
  99. # [00:53] <Hixie> you said he could only do what the membership wanted. eliminating memberships means that's no longer a problem.
  100. # [00:53] <Hixie> (but also, i don't actually accept your premise. He could totally tell the membership that he was not allowing forking even if they disagreed.)
  101. # [00:54] <Hixie> (plus, i disagree with the premise that the majority of the membership actually wants the w3c to be forking specs. they in fact have indicated that they are so _against_ forking that they don't even think the w3c should use a document license that allows it.)
  102. # [00:55] <sgalineau> without money he has no staff and is not paid himself. the notion that he has more power that way seems odd but anyway...
  103. # [00:55] <sgalineau> well, if enough of the membership is against, that's a start and suggests we don't need to abolish the whole thing to fix the problem
  104. # [00:55] <Hixie> he can get paid himself (and even a small staff to organise events and maintain the servers) via small grants, like the IETF.
  105. # [00:56] <Hixie> the w3c has no power _today_ except over its own web site. he'd still have that power without a membership.
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  107. # [00:57] <sgalineau> I'm interested in practical solutions that are not only possible but have some realistic probability of occurring in the near future. not hearing that...
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  109. # [00:58] <sgalineau> and if we know Jeff is not going to do that anyway, arguing what he could do should he choose to do it sounds like a wankfest, to be honest
  110. # [00:58] <Hixie> the practical solution is just for the w3c to not publish forks of specs. i don't understand why this is impractical.
  111. # [00:58] <sgalineau> I don't think it is.
  112. # [00:58] <Hixie> what would the w3c do if the whatwg changed the copyrights on its specs so the w3c could no longer legally fork the specs?
  113. # [00:58] <sgalineau> but if you're going to argue for it by saying 'well, jeff could just fire all the staff and suspend paid membership' that's an excellent way to get tuned out
  114. # [00:59] <sgalineau> I don't know. I'm sort of tickled to see what would happen if it did...
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  120. # [01:04] <TabAtkins> Just make a new copyright notice that's exactly the same as today, but specifically prevents the w3c from forking it or any derivatives.
  121. # [01:06] <Domenic_> i think it's much simpler to argue for no-w3c-forking than for no-paid-membership
  122. # [01:08] <Hixie> well, i think both need to happen, but sure
  123. # [01:08] <Hixie> i don't think the w3c will ever really solve its fundamental problems until it changes its funding model, and i don't think it will ever change its funding model
  124. # [01:09] <Hixie> i was just pointing out that it could, and Jeff has the authority to do it if he wanted to.
  125. # [01:12] <Hixie> sgalineau: why do you think the w3c is forking so many specs? and why do you think it can't not do it?
  126. # [01:12] <hober> Hixie: would you have to get agreement from the WHATWG Membership to change the copyright in that manner?
  127. # [01:12] <SamB> hober: the WHATWG would probably not do that
  128. # [01:12] <Hixie> technically everything i've written since joining google is (c) google and technically none of it has ever had a clear license.
  129. # [01:12] <Hixie> so...
  130. # [01:13] <SamB> Hixie: it says right on the spec what the license is doesn't it
  131. # [01:13] <Hixie> but no, the editors can just pick their own license
  132. # [01:13] <Hixie> SamB: yeah... not clear how accurate that license has been since about 2005. :-)
  133. # [01:13] <Hixie> hober: (in particular, note that the licenses for the other specs are much clearer)
  134. # [01:13] <Hixie> (i just don't like changing legal boilerplate, so i haven't done anything about it)
  135. # [01:14] <SamB> well, I believe there's precedent for contributing to a work with a license statement like that being interpreted as licensing your contributions under that license
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  137. # [01:14] <Hixie> yeah, i think that's why nobody has cared
  138. # [01:14] <Hixie> but anyway, it's only subsequent contributions that would matter
  139. # [01:15] <Hixie> since the w3c has already forked everything written so far
  140. # [01:15] <Hixie> and it would be easy for me just to add "contributions since this date (c) google all rights reserved" or some such
  141. # [01:15] <Hixie> (i'd speak to my copyright lawyer first to get the exact wording obviously)
  142. # [01:15] <Hixie> but doing so goes against everything i think a standards organisation should do
  143. # [01:15] <Hixie> (as does forking)
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  145. # [01:16] <Hixie> so i dunno, do i believe it's more important to stop the w3c or do i believe it's more important to be open
  146. # [01:16] <Hixie> it's a hard call
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  148. # [01:16] <Hixie> (stop the w3c forking, i mean)
  149. # [01:16] <Hixie> (obviously openness is more important than stopping the w3c entirely :-P)
  150. # [01:16] <SamB> Hixie: I'm pretty sure if you were to decide "I'm going to GFDL this and I'm going to add 'The W3C is dead.' as a cover text", the existing material would still be available under, uh
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  152. # [01:17] <zewt> things that would be bad: the internet depending on a spec which which nobody else is allowed to take over if the maintainer/owner stops maintaining it for some unforeseen reason
  153. # [01:17] <zewt> just to throw the obvious out there, heh
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  155. # [01:18] <SamB> this: "You are granted a license to use, reproduce and create derivative works of this document."
  156. # [01:18] <SamB> Hixie: hmm, what is the W3C's copyright policy anyway
  157. # [01:18] <zewt> anyone can take the document and make further modifications to it which aren't under that license; it's not a copyleft, in other words
  158. # [01:19] <SamB> zewt: sure
  159. # [01:19] <zewt> continuing to maintain forks would become difficult if they had to re-spec all future work due to being unable to merge in changes
  160. # [01:19] <Hixie> SamB: GFDL would be an interesting idea, but it's not open enough for e.g. Mozilla to reuse the text in their MPL-covered code.
  161. # [01:20] <Hixie> zewt: yeah, well, welcome to ALL W3C SPECS EVER
  162. # [01:20] <zewt> i recall gfdl being really terrible, though it's been years since i looked at it closely and i couldn't say why off the top of my head
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  164. # [01:20] <SamB> Hixie: that was a "hixie is replaced by his evil twin" scenareo
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  166. # [01:20] <Hixie> zewt: (one reason why we had to rewrite teh entire HTML spec from scratch rather than just forking it, when the w3c refused to maintain it. The other reason, of course, was that there was no material there worthy of being reused...)
  167. # [01:20] <SamB> there's a reason I mentioned the cover text
  168. # [01:21] <Hixie> SamB: we're at the point where that's the kind of thing i'm considering.
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  173. # [01:24] <SamB> so, um, what's the union of the licenses on Gecko, Webkit, and Blink?
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  176. # [01:31] <Hixie> Gecko is MPL, GPL, LGPL. Dunno about webkit/blink.
  177. # [01:31] <Hixie> (i assume BSD or MIT or some such?)
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  181. # [01:38] <SamB> hmm, looking at <http://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs/main/i/iceweasel/unstable_copyright>, <http://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs/main/q/qtwebkit-opensource-src/unstable_copyright>, and <http://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs/main/c/chromium-browser/unstable_copyright> ...
  182. # [01:40] <SamB> I see, well, a few more licenses than you said for mozilla ...
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  184. # [01:43] <SamB> WAAAAY too many BSD variants
  185. # [01:45] <zewt> the bsd license encourages editing it, unfortunately, with the stupid endorsement clause
  186. # [01:46] <zewt> MIT/X11 doesn't have that problem
  187. # [01:46] <SamB> yeah, but they even have a strange variant of BSD2 requiring it be the first thing, other than copyright notices, in the file
  188. # [01:47] <zewt> that's pretty much a nonstarter for me, if I put licenses in files, they go at the end
  189. # [01:49] <zewt> amusingly, that's also GPL-incompatible
  190. # [01:50] <zewt> (i'm not a huge GPL fan these days, but I am for GPL-compatibility)
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  192. # [01:50] <SamB> yes, GPL compatibility is fairly important ...
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  201. # [02:15] <Hixie> hober: ping https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25236
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  214. # [02:33] <sangwhan> Webkit/Blink is a mixture of LGPL and BSD
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  216. # [02:34] <SamB> so it turns out I can't actually read DEP5 files very well; looks like LGPL-2+ / MPL-2.0+ would be a plausible license for the HTML spec that'd allow most browser implementors to paste pieces into their source?
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  218. # [02:36] <SamB> s|;|; but looking at some relevant pages on wikipedia, <about:license> in FF 24, and <http://mozilla.org/MPL>, it|
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  228. # [02:57] <Hixie> SamB: MPL would be sufficient for w3c to keep forking, as far as i can tell
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  230. # [03:01] <tantek> Hixie: re: "belief that w3c specs can't reference whatwg specs" - quite the opposite, I am an *advocate* for W3C specs referencing WHATWG specs.
  231. # [03:01] <tantek> not sure who/where you heard that belief from but it is laughable ;)
  232. # [03:01] <Hixie> oh ok, good
  233. # [03:02] <tantek> and like I said, I'm an advocate for editors of W3C specs to have the freedom to reference WHATWG specs as they see fit.
  234. # [03:02] <tantek> if you hear anything to the contrary, I appreciate the heads-up, as you did.
  235. # [03:03] <Hixie> roger
  236. # [03:04] <tantek> also if you hear from anyone that they are having difficulty doing so, I'm happy to help advocate for them inside W3C
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  269. # [04:51] * SamB isn't sure how he feels about the way http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/compositing-1/ keeps talking about HTML- or SVG-specific stuff; on the one hand it makes things easier to understand but on the other hand it seems kind of like stuff that should be in HTML or SVG specs ...
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  273. # [05:04] * SamB thinks you guys need to learn to spell \times though
  274. # [05:05] <SamB> it's ×, not x
  275. # [05:05] <SamB> wow that renders bad in unifont though
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  394. # [12:41] <IZh> Hi.
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  525. # [22:46] <MikeSmith> is file:///abc|/foo/bar as valid URL per the rules for file URLs in the URL spec?
  526. # [22:47] <MikeSmith> is file:///9|/foo/bar a valid URL?
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  528. # [22:47] <MikeSmith> and by valid I mean, does not cause a parse error
  529. # [22:48] <MikeSmith> and I mean the problem character being the bar character
  530. # [22:50] <MikeSmith> "|"
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  532. # [22:51] <MikeSmith> which is not a "URL code point" so normally generates a parse error but is allowed if in file URLs under certain circumstances
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  534. # [22:52] <MikeSmith> but I thought the only case where it was allowed was after a single ASCII alpha character
  535. # [22:53] <MikeSmith> and then only if that single ASCII alpha character is the first character after the scheme, with nothing else between
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  538. # [23:07] <IZh> I don't know whether it is valid, but why don't use %xx for bar?
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  542. # [23:22] <MikeSmith> IZh: because I'm writing test cases to check if an implementation treats stuff like "file:///abc|/foo/bar" as valid
  543. # [23:23] <MikeSmith> anyway I realize now that "|" seems be allowed in the host part
  544. # [23:25] <MikeSmith> ah oops I meant to say "file://abc|/foo/bar" before
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  546. # [23:27] <MikeSmith> anyway it seems what happens is that per the spec, "file://c|/foo/bar" gets parsed as host=null path="/c:/foo/bar"
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  548. # [23:29] <MikeSmith> whereas "file://abc|/foo/bar" gets parsed as host="abc|" path="/foo/bar"
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  560. # Session Close: Sun Apr 13 00:00:00 2014

The end :)