/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-04-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 17 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <zewt> SamB: all OS's support async directory creation; you just do it in a thread
  4. # [00:01] <SamB> zewt: oh. right.
  5. # [00:01] <zewt> (i think windows does support doing every FS operation async with the "overlapped" API)
  6. # [00:01] <annevk> cwilso_____: see also http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2012OctDec/thread.html#msg543 and such
  7. # [00:01] <SamB> zewt: yes I did get that impression when I looked at their APIs last
  8. # [00:01] <zewt> (it may just create a thread behind the scenes)
  9. # [00:02] <SamB> or heck it could just not do it asynchronously
  10. # [00:02] <zewt> doubt that
  11. # [00:02] <zewt> it'd become really obvious as soon as you do something on a dirty CD
  12. # [00:03] <zewt> the overlapped API is nasty enough that i'd just do it myself with a thread, though
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  14. # [00:08] * cwilso_____ is now known as cwilso
  15. # [00:09] <cwilso> annevk: yep, I'd say abarth and I do not completely agree there.
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  18. # [00:09] <cwilso> I do agree it should be clear where any spec text came from
  19. # [00:09] <cwilso> (and whose work it is)
  20. # [00:09] <annevk> yeah, everyone says that
  21. # [00:09] <cwilso> canonicality is a tough one.
  22. # [00:09] <annevk> lots of nice talk
  23. # [00:09] <annevk> little walk
  24. # [00:09] <annevk> or some such
  25. # [00:10] <cwilso> because.... coming back to what I said like 9 years ago when Hixie et al asked me to join the whatwg effort... there's no IP fence of any kind around the WHATWG spec.
  26. # [00:10] <cwilso> because no one adds that text, you mean?
  27. # [00:11] <cwilso> If so, that's messed up.
  28. # [00:11] <cwilso> (And I do agree with abarth quite strongly that " the document should clearly state that it is based in part (or in whole) on the WHATWG version. "
  29. # [00:11] <annevk> "the WHATWG spec"?
  30. # [00:12] <cwilso> s/WHATWG spec/WHATWG work.
  31. # [00:12] <SamB> annevk: you want it under a license that requires attribution, instead of a PD declaration?
  32. # [00:12] <SamB> or, er, cwilso
  33. # [00:12] <annevk> because the W3C likes to pretend the WHATWG doesn't really exist
  34. # [00:12] <cwilso> that is, the work mode of the W3C engenders some kind of shared IP promise.
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  36. # [00:13] * SamB sometimes confuses people whose nicks have the same length and capitalization pattern, especially if they get colored similarly in his client ...
  37. # [00:13] <annevk> oh
  38. # [00:13] * annevk was confused
  39. # [00:13] * cwilso thinks that's the first time annevk and he have been confused, and think he's probably more offended than me.
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  42. # [00:17] <SamB> hmm, now what's a license that requires attribution but isn't too long? expat license looks a bit long to include on spec pages ...
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  44. # [00:19] <cwilso> samb: was the question to me "do you want it under a license that requires attribution, instead of a PD declaration?" if so, what's "it"?
  45. # [00:19] <SamB> the WHATWG stuff
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  48. # [00:22] <SamB> hmm, GNU has a nice short one in (info "(maintain)License Notices for Other Files")
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  50. # [00:23] <SamB> Copying and distribution of this file, with or without modification, are permitted in any medium without royalty provided the copyright notice and this notice are preserved. This file is offered as-is, without any warranty.
  51. # [00:23] <SamB> except maybe that's actually a copyleft by accident?
  52. # [00:24] <annevk> SamB: cwilso is not concerned with the license
  53. # [00:25] <cwilso> I don't need anything to change. :P
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  56. # [00:26] * SamB was just thinking some kind of license requirement would be a reasonable way of ensuring that the W3C don't "forget" to attribute something ...
  57. # [00:27] <crocket> !schools
  58. # [00:27] <annevk> SamB: requiring something from the W3C would also require something from others, the latter would be bad
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  60. # [00:32] <annevk> Domenic_: I think the main problem with UI events, btw, is the interaction between them
  61. # [00:32] <annevk> Domenic_: e.g. in one task you hit test, dispatch mouseX, check for cancelled, then what? what about focus? what about :hover at this point? etc.
  62. # [00:33] <SamB> annevk: well, okay, probably that's not the right form of attribution; maybe something that could be satisfied by simply saying "From WHATWG html:"
  63. # [00:33] <annevk> Domenic_: and now it's not just mouse and focus, but also pointer, and "indie UI", and if you're unlucky, touch
  64. # [00:34] <annevk> SamB: I don't think the W3C should copy in the first place
  65. # [00:34] <annevk> SamB: if they want to make lawyer snapshots so they get IP protection fine, but they're not doing that
  66. # [00:35] <SamB> what exactly ARE they doing besides cutting features they think are unstable or something like that?
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  69. # [00:37] <annevk> SamB: they're causing confusion and wasting resources
  70. # [00:38] <annevk> SamB: HTML and 2D <canvas> are probably worst
  71. # [00:39] <SamB> oh, they're copying others?
  72. # [00:39] <annevk> Yes, most of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/ is copied in one way or another
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  84. # [00:46] <danbeam> info Domenic_
  85. # [00:46] <danbeam> whoops, sorry
  86. # [00:47] <danbeam> Domenic_: I would like more info from you, though :P, if you can respond to http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2014-April/254147.html
  87. # [00:47] <danbeam> full disclosure, I'm implementing this in blink -- https://chromiumcodereview.appspot.com/228783007/
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  89. # [00:54] <cwilso> annevk: "make the lawyer snapshots so they get IP protection" is a horribly, dangerously naive view of IP.
  90. # [00:54] <cwilso> if the W3C group truly only C&P'ed WHATWG specs, no one would be in the WGs. And there would be no IP commitments.
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  92. # [00:55] <paul_irish> Domenic_: crazy results on that poll, yeah.
  93. # [00:55] <annevk> cwilso: the dog & pony show they put up now is a horrible waste of resources
  94. # [00:55] <paul_irish> I wish it wasn't so damn uneven. I'm sure that with less experienced developers it'd flop the more to seconds, though. :/
  95. # [00:55] <danbeam> paul_irish: is it actually s instead of ms? (assuming you're talking about that animation poll)
  96. # [00:56] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  97. # [00:56] <paul_irish> danbeam: yes elem.animate() from web animations API defines duration in seconds, yah
  98. # [00:56] <annevk> Domenic_: paul_irish: note that media elements use seconds (iirc)
  99. # [00:56] <annevk> Domenic_: paul_irish: I think based on feedback from Apple
  100. # [00:56] <danbeam> paul_irish: considering there's probably not an animation in all of chrome (native or web) that's over 1s, I do find that kind of odd
  101. # [00:57] <cwilso> yeah, media apis and web audio.
  102. # [00:57] <paul_irish> yeah I'd imagine 80% of all css animations are <1s.
  103. # [00:58] <cwilso> annevk: not really a dog and pony show, more of a "maimed and angry cat parade"
  104. # [00:58] <sgalineau> paul_irish: I'd say that's because most animations in CSS are transitions which are inherently short
  105. # [00:58] <danbeam> paul_irish: that, in itself, should probably enough to make the default unit milliseconds instead of seconds, audio/media should be much longer so seconds makes more sense there
  106. # [00:59] <paul_irish> aye. so likely avg duration in keyframe animations is longer. seems legit.
  107. # [00:59] <danbeam> but obviously it's not the end of the world if I have to do .2 instead of 200
  108. # [00:59] <sgalineau> paul_irish: but the use-case for @keyframes was more about longer-run effects, I think. in practice it's been rare thus far because transition effects was really the one everybody wanted
  109. # [01:00] <sgalineau> paul_irish: then there's also the spinner/throbber type @keyframes that may last 1s *per cycle* but are meant to go for as long as it takes....
  110. # [01:01] <cwilso> danbeam: sgalineau: actually in Web Audio many durations are short (most are "transitions" (i.e. scheduled ramps)). But WA units are definitively floating point, and use of ms was heavily ingrained due to "usable precision in an integer unit".
  111. # [01:02] <sgalineau> cwilso: yeah, something like audio strikes me as implying units more precise than seconds
  112. # [01:02] <sgalineau> cwilso: or at a minimum support for fractional values
  113. # [01:02] <zewt> audio time should just be 64-bit seconds
  114. # [01:03] <cwilso> zewt: hope you mean 64-bit FLOAT seconds
  115. # [01:03] <zewt> it's particularly silly to use ms if you still have to use floats, and integer milliseconds aren't precise enough for some audio use cases
  116. # [01:03] <zewt> cwilso: yep
  117. # [01:04] <sgalineau> I suppose 64-bit milliseconds might be OK....
  118. # [01:04] <cwilso> zewt: that's precisely why they ended up that way across the WA API.
  119. # [01:04] <cwilso> sgalineau: WHY use milliseconds, though?
  120. # [01:04] <sgalineau> what kind of use-cases need sub-millisecond in audio?
  121. # [01:04] <cwilso> sgalineau: getting samples to precisely align on a beat.
  122. # [01:04] <zewt> rhythm games
  123. # [01:05] <cwilso> getting buffers to play contiguously.
  124. # [01:05] <sgalineau> ok, cool.
  125. # [01:05] <sgalineau> you could use CSS seconds; they're about 0.96 normal seconds when you hold them at arm's length
  126. # [01:05] * sgalineau cannot tire of CSS unit jokes
  127. # [01:06] <MikeSmith> tmux attach-session -d -t ssb
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  144. # [01:35] <SteveF> annevk: the w3c html spec is pretty clear in regards to attribution http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/ if anybody thinks otherwise all they have to do is speak up
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  189. # [02:46] <hober> MikeSmith: I guess I should try tmux at some point. Does it have an equivalent of screen's "nethack on"?
  190. # [02:46] <hober> MikeSmith: because you will pry "You cannot escape from window 0!" out from under my cold, dead, bloated Emacs pinky finger.
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  196. # [02:51] <MikeSmith> hober: dunno what nethack on does but I suspect tmux has an equivalent. tmux also handle Unicode like 🍺 that screen fails to display
  197. # [02:53] <MikeSmith> hober: http://www.reddit.com/r/commandline/comments/1y91lz/tmux_vs_screen/
  198. # [02:54] <MikeSmith> seems it doesn't have it :-(
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  201. # [03:00] <MikeSmith> man how do people read reddit on mobile
  202. # [03:02] <MikeSmith> hmm looks way better in chrome than in Firefox Nightly
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  209. # [03:14] <sgalineau> man how do people read reddit at all
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  218. # [03:31] <zewt> MikeSmith: ircing on couch on ios also showing glyph that I'm certain desktop irc defaulted on
  219. # [03:34] <SamB> what, this one? 🍺
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  256. # [04:15] <zewt> SamB: called it http://i.imgur.com/P0oMgis.png
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  262. # [04:32] <zewt> speaking of use cases for high-precision audio, https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/456620100758429697
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  264. # [04:38] <zewt> http://i.imgur.com/yKIqZdS.png theonion with some more font failure
  265. # [04:38] <zewt> you can probably fingerprint the developers of websites based on which characters they assume works, if they aren't competent enough to test on more than one platform
  266. # [04:39] <zewt> (also plurals fails)
  267. # [04:40] <zewt> holy shit, youtube just used an alert()
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  269. # [04:41] <zewt> (shock triggered by the fact that chrome regressed alerts and removed tab-modal alerts, putting it back into the dark ages, so I'm there clicking tabs and nothing is happening because the tab has an alert open)
  270. # [04:42] <zewt> (chrome's catastrophic regression being incomprehensibly worse than youtube's lazy alert)
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  273. # [04:44] <JonathanNeal> What do any of you think about hashes like ##some+text auto-anchoring to parts of the page matching the text, ala http://sandbox.thewikies.com/autoanchor/ and http://sandbox.thewikies.com/autoanchor/##protocols
  274. # [04:44] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@76.74.153.41)
  275. # [04:47] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: would be nice to have some kind of way to address abitrary text or ranges in a page
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  277. # [04:47] <MikeSmith> "##" is some suggested convention for doing that?
  278. # [04:49] <JonathanNeal> KevinMarks2:
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  280. # [04:51] <JonathanNeal> MikeSmith: I believe so. Kevin suggested it (and Timothy Cole, in that document). I pinged him if he has thoughts to add.
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  284. # [04:52] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: I guess you know that shepazu is following all this stuff closely
  285. # [04:52] <JonathanNeal> Honestly, I just stumbled upon it tonight. It just seemed like a great idea.
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  287. # [04:56] <JonathanNeal> Like, something I would have expected on the web by now. Hey, shepazu, you’re an html5 homie, right?
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  293. # [05:07] <SamB> how about them xpaths
  294. # [05:09] <zewt> xpath was cool until querySelector
  295. # [05:10] <zewt> at which point it settled to a cool level equivalent to the macarana, blue LEDs and java
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  297. # [05:30] <SamB> xpath can do more the CSS selectors ...
  298. # [05:30] <SamB> s/the/than/
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  313. # [06:13] <JonathanNeal> btw, https://github.com/chapmanu/fragmentions
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  330. # [07:15] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: interesting
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  332. # [07:16] <MikeSmith> getElementByText
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  334. # [07:17] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: shepazu can tell you about some more sophisticated ways that existing sites that use annotations are handling this kind of addressing
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  336. # [07:20] <JonathanNeal> interesting good,bad,lazy,just-interesting? Looks like we’ll just throw a prototype demo up and get feedback.
  337. # [07:21] <JonathanNeal> Related, <a href="##foo"> appears to be invalid markup “Illegal character in fragment component” adding “ Characters should be represented in NFC and spaces should be escaped as %20” — is there something more to this?
  338. # [07:21] <MikeSmith> ah
  339. # [07:22] <MikeSmith> yeah the URL spec doesn't allow fragments to contain a hash sign
  340. # [07:24] <JonathanNeal> That’s good and bad, because one concern regards sites already using ##. Googling various terms related to double hashes did not yield any results on the subject.
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  350. # [08:04] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: it appears you should also make some more links in platform.whatwg.org point to whatwg so that it doesn't look like we're not involved in web standards :-P
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  362. # [08:23] <TabAtkins> SamB: XPath can do more than Selectors, but Selectors can do more than XPath. The two are roughly equivalent, but not strict subsets.
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  365. # [08:26] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: yeah I had already been meaning to change most of those
  366. # [08:26] <MikeSmith> lemme change some right now
  367. # [08:27] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: (q.v. blink-dev; i wasn't serious but if there are links that should actually point to whatwg, go ahead)
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  373. # [08:31] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: ah yeah I haven't read up on that thread. that guy seemed a bit confused
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  376. # [08:32] <MikeSmith> still I want to make the right stuff more prominent
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  402. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: http://platform.html5.org/
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  406. # [09:37] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: why are the whatwg items bigger font?
  407. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: to make them bigger
  408. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> and to match more closely with the size of the icon
  409. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> should I make them the same size?
  410. # [09:38] <zcorpan> yeah i think it looks a bit silly now :-)
  411. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> k
  412. # [09:39] <zcorpan> might be nice with icons for everything?
  413. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: should I make the whatg icon smaller to match the text?
  414. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> icons for everything?
  415. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: like, add a w3c icon too?
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  417. # [09:40] <zcorpan> yeah
  418. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> OK
  419. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> will add it later
  420. # [09:40] <zcorpan> as for smaller icons, maybe that makes it ugly on lowres screens?
  421. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> yeah
  422. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> so I'll leave them as-is
  423. # [09:41] <zcorpan> unless you use the svg version but maybe there's no svg version for w3c/kronos/etc
  424. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: there is for w3c at least
  425. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> but I'll just do the bitmaps for now
  426. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> I wonder what's the latest URL for Promises?
  427. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> https://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-promise-objects I guess
  428. # [09:49] <zcorpan> yeah
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  446. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: OK take another look now
  447. # [10:47] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: A+
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  449. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> yay
  450. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> so I'll stop for now
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  461. # [11:05] <annevk> MikeSmith: maybe add a link to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/DOM_XPath
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  465. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> annevk: ok, added
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  468. # [11:14] <annevk> MikeSmith: would be even cooler btw if the specs with their own logo...
  469. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah I'd need to switch them over the svg ones I guess
  470. # [11:17] <darobin> mmmm, w3c-test.org down?
  471. # [11:19] <annevk> darobin: glad the DOM thing was a misunderstanding
  472. # [11:19] <darobin> annevk: what DOM thing?
  473. # [11:19] <annevk> darobin: ownerElement
  474. # [11:19] <darobin> oh yeah, I fucked that one up
  475. # [11:20] <darobin> I was sure it was in after the discussion in www-dom so when it didn't show up in the snapshot after the copy I assumed I'd screwed up syncing
  476. # [11:22] <darobin> I should've given myself more credit, cut and pasting is something I'm actually becoming good at
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  480. # [11:24] <Ms2ger> darobin, w3c-test.org does appear down from here
  481. # [11:25] <darobin> Ms2ger: yeah, I'm looking into it
  482. # [11:25] <darobin> the server is running
  483. # [11:25] <Ms2ger> Ah, doing something useful, excellent ;)
  484. # [11:25] <darobin> mmmm, but using 8321m of memory and 50% CPU, that doesn't sound right
  485. # [11:27] <darobin> errr, MikeSmith are you on the server too?
  486. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> darobin: yeah
  487. # [11:27] <darobin> heh
  488. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> I just restarted wptserve
  489. # [11:27] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, the phantom of the server
  490. # [11:27] <darobin> we were doing the same thing :)
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  492. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> darobin: hah
  493. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> blood brothers
  494. # [11:28] <darobin> got me confused when I killall python and it matches nothing
  495. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> I beat you to the kill this time
  496. # [11:28] <darobin> lol
  497. # [11:28] <darobin> I wonder if we shouldn't have a cronjob restart the server daily
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  499. # [11:29] <darobin> clearly it can get into a bad state
  500. # [11:29] <darobin> or maybe the systeam has a nice watchdog we could use
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  502. # [11:30] <Ms2ger> Would be interesting to figure out what gets it into that state
  503. # [11:30] <darobin> Ms2ger: yeah, I managed to get it in a bad state on my local machine but I couldn't figure out what it was unhappy about
  504. # [11:30] <darobin> it was something about trying to write to a closed socket
  505. # [11:31] <darobin> Ms2ger: I can repro by reloading lots and lots of times brutally
  506. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> maybe it has something to do with it also writing binary data to its log
  507. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> or emitting it to the console -- stderr I guess
  508. # [11:31] <darobin> but the problem took me deep inside the python libs and I'm not proficient enough to debug that well
  509. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> we should get the webdriver folks to look at it
  510. # [11:32] <darobin> why them?
  511. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> David Burns if he has time
  512. # [11:32] <darobin> because pythonistas?
  513. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> darobin: because they have the python skills
  514. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> yeah
  515. # [11:32] <darobin> good point
  516. # [11:33] <darobin> though I thought we had Ms2ger and jgraham_ as python deities :)
  517. # [11:33] * jgraham_ is now known as jgraham
  518. # [11:33] <Ms2ger> Nope
  519. # [11:33] <Ms2ger> Just jgraham
  520. # [11:33] * jgraham isn't sure about deitiy
  521. # [11:33] <jgraham> But I could certainly have a go at debugging the problem if I could reproduce it
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  526. # [11:35] <jgraham> Anyway, I need to catch a train
  527. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> we need some rr for wptserve
  528. # [11:40] <darobin> we could use something like https://github.com/tsenart/vegeta
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  549. # [12:21] <Ms2ger> "if the W3C group truly only C&P'ed WHATWG specs, no one would be in the WGs."
  550. # [12:21] <Ms2ger> Then why are they in the WGs now?
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  553. # [12:27] <jgraham> I don't think anyone *is* in the HTMLWG, at least
  554. # [12:27] <jgraham> Well I guess Microsoft are
  555. # [12:28] <Ms2ger> I think Mozilla still is
  556. # [12:29] <Ms2ger> Do you / zcorpan know if the XHR test suite is comprehensive?
  557. # [12:30] <jgraham> Well I mean people are in the group
  558. # [12:30] <jgraham> But I don't think anyone believes that the HTMLWG is a useful mechanism for getting changes into HTML
  559. # [12:34] * tobie_ wonders whether the overhead of discussing the WHATWG vs. W3C situation is <=, >= or == than dealing with the W3C overhead.
  560. # [12:34] * tobie_ ducks.
  561. # [12:34] <jgraham> quack
  562. # [12:36] <jgraham> (and I think the fact that people have just stopped participating in the W3C process should be a significant data point in answering that question)
  563. # [12:37] <tobie_> So my intent wasn't to start a discussion on that topic and add some meta-overhead.
  564. # [12:38] <tobie_> :)
  565. # [12:42] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: i'm not that familiar with the xhr testsuite but i have a feeling it has various gaps in coverage
  566. # [12:44] <jgraham> zcorpan: Do you store that response locally as "%(name)s: I'm not familiar with the %(suite_name) testsuite but I have a feeling it has various gaps in coverage"?
  567. # [12:46] <zcorpan> jgraham: i'm not that familiar with the response testsuite but i have a feeling it has various gaps in coverage
  568. # [12:49] <jgraham> darobin-- for mixing big whitespace changes with semantic changes
  569. # [12:50] <darobin> ah shit, sorry jgraham
  570. # [12:50] <darobin> I blame aryeh for using tabs in the first place :)
  571. # [12:51] <jgraham> :)
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  575. # [13:14] <darobin> Ms2ger: do you know why detach() was turned into a noop?
  576. # [13:15] <darobin> I ask because it's clearly not a noop in at least Blink and WebKit (apparently not in IE either), and that's causing an awful lot of test failures
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  578. # [13:17] <darobin> annevk: ^
  579. # [13:18] <Ms2ger> darobin, because it wasn't useful
  580. # [13:18] <darobin> Ms2ger: mmmmm
  581. # [13:19] <Ms2ger> I'm surprised nobody else killed it yet
  582. # [13:19] <darobin> if they did they'd pass most if not all of the range tests
  583. # [13:19] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, I should bug... Hallvors, I guess?
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  590. # [13:31] <Ms2ger> "name of illusion causing proponents of a concept to see most things as that concept? e.g. webintents,annotations,cards"
  591. # [13:31] <Ms2ger> tantek, going to coin "monadism"
  592. # [13:35] <jgraham> That seems a bit like an error of the form "They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
  593. # [13:36] <annevk> darobin: what do you mean by clearly not a noop?
  594. # [13:37] <annevk> darobin: if you mean they set a flag and threw for some methods, that doesn't necessarily make it useful
  595. # [13:37] <darobin> annevk: after you call it, trying to access various attributes throws
  596. # [13:37] <darobin> (as per DOM3)
  597. # [13:37] <darobin> yeah, I didn't say it was useful, just that it seemed to be implemented as per DOM3
  598. # [13:38] <annevk> we removed throwing because it could just be GC'd if you didn't have references
  599. # [13:38] <annevk> detach() wasn't needed for that
  600. # [13:38] <jgraham> darobin: Here's your chance to write a patch, fix Blink, get a whole load of tests to pass, and get DOM closer to Rec!
  601. # [13:38] <darobin> I wonder if other implementations might need it?
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  605. # [13:39] <darobin> jgraham: yeah! or I could just write something to the effect that 97% of failures come from the fact that browsers support detach() when they shouldn't and call it a day :)
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  607. # [13:39] <annevk> darobin: need it for what?
  608. # [13:39] <darobin> that said, I guess a patch removing stuff from Blink would actually be quite easy to get through the process :)
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  610. # [13:40] <darobin> annevk: I'm presuming this was initially introduced due to some implementation that needed to be told what to do; I was wondering if it were possible that someone still implemented ranges in a way that made detach() useful
  611. # [13:40] <darobin> (which isn't a reason to keep it, I'm just wondering why it hasn't been killed yet)
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  613. # [13:40] <jgraham> darobin: Well that might work if your only care about the spec going to Rec :p
  614. # [13:40] <annevk> darobin: Java prolly needs detach()
  615. # [13:40] <darobin> annevk: that's what I was thinking
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  619. # [13:41] <annevk> we only care about JavaScript
  620. # [13:41] <darobin> jgraham: I care about many other things, but patching Blink isn't really one of them
  621. # [13:41] <darobin> apparently it's not even implemented in JS!
  622. # [13:42] <annevk> OMG IDL
  623. # [13:42] <annevk> better call Domenic_
  624. # [13:44] * darobin puts on the Ghostbusters theme music
  625. # [13:46] <jgraham> annevk: Pretty sure no one uses OMG IDL these days :p
  626. # [13:51] <zcorpan> OMG OMG IDL
  627. # [14:01] <jgraham> It always confuses me when posting a branch to GitHub fails to create a review :(
  628. # [14:02] <jgraham> Maybe I should make a "git review" command
  629. # [14:18] <zcorpan> jgraham: maybe test_obj should have a .timeout() function?
  630. # [14:18] <jgraham> zcorpan: Yeah, I was thinking .force_timeout() or something
  631. # [14:20] <zcorpan> sounds good
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  634. # [14:30] <darobin> jgraham: actually, I recall seeing some OMG IDL not very long ago, I forget where
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  636. # [14:30] <darobin> I think it was a payment system defined with it
  637. # [14:30] <darobin> apparently it's still a thing
  638. # [14:31] <darobin> indeed, not only is the OMG still a thing, but they've also discovered animated GIFs! http://www.omg.org/
  639. # [14:34] <jgraham> I was expecting the executives looking at the laptop to start poking their own eyes out
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  641. # [14:34] <jgraham> Disappointed to find it was only balloons
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  644. # [14:37] <zcorpan> i like the scrolling thing
  645. # [14:41] <jgraham> I'm a big fan of the fact that the top quote is "Personally I have made many friends at the OMG"
  646. # [14:42] <jgraham> That's a strategy the W3C should adopt
  647. # [14:42] <jgraham> "W3C: Because joining us is a bit like having a social life"
  648. # [14:43] <jgraham> Maybe s/joining us/being in a working group/
  649. # [14:43] * jgraham applies for the position of brand consultant
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  652. # [14:58] <tobie_> Can't believe this is a thing.
  653. # [15:01] <jgraham> OMG?
  654. # [15:01] <jgraham> How did you think they got their name?
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  656. # [15:05] <zcorpan> jgraham: need to leave now, assume that i've LGTMed some future change involving force_timeout() if you don't want to wait until tuesday
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  672. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> fyi UK peeps: https://twitter.com/w3c/status/456772456372400128
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  675. # [15:41] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Uh
  676. # [15:41] <jgraham> That appears to be "GCHQ have just joined W3C"
  677. # [15:41] <jgraham> I see no possible way this could go wrong
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  680. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> keep your friends close
  681. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> as the saying goes
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  685. # [15:58] <Ms2ger> jgraham, to join the Intelligence Agencies Business Group?
  686. # [16:00] <beverloo> that'd be a great forum to discuss how to not flag security issues
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  693. # [16:16] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Want do review the merge in https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/8241e648?review=1151 ?
  694. # [16:19] <Ms2ger> r+
  695. # [16:20] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Thanks
  696. # [16:20] * Ms2ger was going to do some work this afternoon... *sigh*
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  705. # [17:02] <Ms2ger> “The language does not prevent you from deeply nesting classes, but good taste should. [...] Nesting more than two levels invites a readability disaster and should probably never be attempted.”
  706. # [17:02] <jgraham> ?
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  708. # [17:06] <SamB__> Ms2ger: which one?
  709. # [17:06] * SamB__ is now known as SamB
  710. # [17:06] <Ms2ger> Java
  711. # [17:06] <Ms2ger> Oh, I also can't read
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  713. # [17:08] <SamB> is that talking about actual closures or just some boring namespace/protection thing?
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  716. # [17:15] <tantek> Ms2ger interesting, I'll have to read up on monads and monadology.
  717. # [17:15] <tantek> there are more examples too, e.g. "triples" ;)
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  719. # [17:16] <tantek> but it's particularly concerning that this illusion pattern appears to repeat itself just in web technology circles so often
  720. # [17:18] <tantek> also, there seems to be some consensus that it's a form of confirmation bias, in particular a type of Maslow's hammer. See replies here: https://twitter.com/t/status/456552583499243521
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  726. # [17:29] <annevk> Ms2ger: where is that from?
  727. # [17:29] <Domenic_> MikeSmith: platform.html5.org is really excellent now. I like how it links to EDs for the W3C things too.
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  729. # [17:31] <annevk> MikeSmith: http://simonsapin.github.io/data-urls/ is the latest we have on data URLs
  730. # [17:31] <SimonSapin> It’s more a collection of open issues than anything else
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  737. # [17:46] <tantek> also, this article from that thread has a lot of applicability in many web platform discussions: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000018.html - so many architecture astronauts
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  750. # [18:15] <MikeSmith> Domenic_: Thanks
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  752. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> annevk: didn't know about that one
  753. # [18:16] * MikeSmith looks
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  775. # [18:53] <Domenic_> hehehe https://twitter.com/antimattur/status/456835404596252673
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  779. # [18:58] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  780. # [18:59] <JonathanNeal> MikeSmith, ready ready for some in the wild testing of fragmentions?
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  787. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: you win
  788. # [19:06] * MikeSmith and JonathanNeal are playing "Best spring-break pickup lines"
  789. # [19:08] <JonathanNeal> Oh we are? I plan on observing Good Friday. If you’re free, let’s make it a GREAT Friday!
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  796. # [19:18] * JonathanNeal listens to the crickets, but still thinks it was clever.
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  798. # [19:19] <jsbell> that feeling when you haven't settled into a new workflow and you feel like a t-rex in a china shop
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  805. # [19:25] <JonathanNeal> jsbell: that does sound kind of awesome though. Like, those plates don’t stand a chance.
  806. # [19:26] <jsbell> Rawr! Whoops, sorry. Let me pick that up. Oh, wait, useless arms.
  807. # [19:30] <JonathanNeal> Tea, Rex?
  808. # [19:31] <jgraham> jsbell: Do you want help with something, or are you just happily complaining?
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  810. # [19:31] <jsbell> jgraham: Just happily complaining. :)
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  812. # [19:33] <Domenic_> annevk: FYI I think I'm going to do a "how to make subclassable APIs" guide. I feel like we've talked about related topics a lot. https://github.com/w3ctag/subclassable-apis-guide/issues
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  814. # [19:36] <annevk> Domenic_: one thing that'd be interested is considering the impact on the current APIs
  815. # [19:36] <annevk> interesting*
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  870. # [21:06] <IZh> Hi.
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  878. # [21:28] <KevinMarks> The difference in what can be in a URL fragment and what can be in an id is interesting
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  880. # [21:29] <annevk> KevinMarks: you mean given that a fragment is a sequence of bytes and an ID is a string?
  881. # [21:31] <KevinMarks> A fragment can encode anything with percent encoding, but an id can't have spaces
  882. # [21:32] <KevinMarks> So the fragmention idea could just be "if the fragment contains whitespace, search body text rather than ids"
  883. # [21:33] * KevinMarks has the terminology wrong there.
  884. # [21:35] <annevk> data:text/html,<style id="x x">head,:target{display:block;height:20em}:target{background:purple}</style>#x x
  885. # [21:35] <annevk> does seem to work
  886. # [21:35] <annevk> restrictions on IDs are mostly so they can appear space-separated elsewhere I suppose
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  926. # [22:48] <JonathanNeal> annevk, is this related to fragmentions?
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  964. # [23:58] <benschwarz> Hixie: yt?
  965. # Session Close: Fri Apr 18 00:00:00 2014

The end :)