/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-04-24 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Apr 24 00:00:01 2014
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:09] <Hixie> zcorpan: interesting idea
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# [00:11] <MikeSmith> I support zcorpan's idea, especially since zcorpan's one of the main actual productive users of that form
# [00:11] <zcorpan> Hixie: if you're going to tweak things here, i'd also like to have the link to the filed URL stay somewhere because i want to copy it or follow it later, and it's annoying when it's gone and i have to search in bugzilla or check my email to find it
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# [00:12] <Hixie> zcorpan: k
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# [01:20] <benschwarz> Hixie: yt?
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# [02:11] <Hixie> benschwarz: here
# [02:11] <Hixie> benschwarz: commented on the post
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# [03:10] * Hixie makes some slight changes to the top of the spec
# [03:10] * jtcranmer stares cross-eyed at the streams spec
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# [05:15] <SamB> Hixie: ... interesting choice of mode for the html spec ...
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# [05:28] <MikeSmith> wow that's a lot of green boxes
# [05:28] <MikeSmith> I like how you've gone with the Japanese spelling of "developers" there in the URL
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# [05:46] <SamB> fatal: repository 'https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/anolis/' not found
# [05:46] <SamB> :-(
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# [06:12] <Hixie> SamB: yeah... i think it needs something else... but what we had before was worse, so...
# [06:12] <Hixie> SamB: any ideas?
# [06:13] <SamB> Hixie: not really
# [06:13] <Hixie> :-(
# [06:13] <Hixie> same here
# [06:13] <Hixie> MikeSmith: oops :-) fixed
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# [07:05] <SamB> <dt>An end tag whose tag name is "sarcasm"</dt>
# [07:05] <SamB> ;-)
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# [10:01] <annevk> Can someone take a look at https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/issues/923 maybe?
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# [10:06] <jgraham> annevk: Why?
# [10:07] <annevk> jgraham: seems to be blocking someone attempting to implement minlength
# [10:08] <jgraham> OK. Not sure I know the editing stuff well enough to know theright fix
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# [10:08] <annevk> jgraham: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=932755
# [10:09] <birtles> annevk, jgraham: I'm trying to set up a folder for web-animations on web-platform-tests. Do I have to do anything to be able to review pull requests to that folder?
# [10:09] <birtles> I sent a pull request last week (https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/1302) although I should probably tweak those tests a bit
# [10:10] <annevk> Hey birtles, I don't really know, I think jgraham and/or darobin can set you up
# [10:10] <birtles> annevk: cheers
# [10:10] <jgraham> birtles: You don't need anything to be able to review PRs, although obviously reviewing your own PR isn't normal :)
# [10:11] <annevk> birtles: out of curiosity, how did you guys settle the second vs microsecond debate?
# [10:11] <birtles> jgraham: ok, so maybe I can just ask one of the other editors/implementors to review it
# [10:11] <birtles> annevk: yeah, milliseconds it is
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# [10:11] <birtles> it's fixed in the spec, being patched in blink and polyfill
# [10:12] <birtles> annevk: oh *how*, basically we just did what the tag told us
# [10:12] <annevk> birtles: was more interested in the former :-)
# [10:13] <birtles> annevk: former = seconds? what the resolution was?
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# [10:14] <annevk> birtles: I was interested in what you settled on, sorry for the confusion
# [10:15] <birtles> k
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# [10:20] <jgraham> birtles: Have some review
# [10:20] <birtles> jgraham: thanks!
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# [12:08] <jgraham> So you don't actually need user interaction to set the dirty flag on form controls, right?
# [12:08] <jgraham> In which case all the execCommand stuff is unneeded
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# [12:21] <zcorpan> setting .value makes it dirty
# [12:22] <zcorpan> but maybe not for checkboxes?
# [12:23] <jgraham> Pretty sure what's already there doesn't work for checkboxes either
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# [12:26] <jgraham> In unrelated news, it looks like the unload-a-document tests are now the most unstable web-platform-tests
# [12:26] <jgraham> In gecko at least
# [12:26] <jgraham> (although not *only*)
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# [12:27] <jgraham> It looks a lot like the session storage is sometimes dirty
# [12:27] <jgraham> Could replace that with a server-side script I guess
# [12:28] <jgraham> Or maybe just use a unique token for each run
# [12:28] <jgraham> Although I am not really sure this is the problem
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# [12:52] <zcorpan> i thought navigation was already interoperable and doesn't need tests
# [12:53] <jgraham> Hmm?
# [12:55] <jgraham> In yet more news
# [12:55] <jgraham> It is very frustrating
# [12:55] <jgraham> There are quite a few tests depending on w3c-test.org
# [12:55] <jgraham> Which need to be fixed
# [12:56] <jgraham> But the rabbit hole goes deeper as some of the tests turn out to believe they are running on port 80
# [12:56] <jgraham> And fixing this is taking too much time
# [13:04] <jgraham> These dnd tests, for example, are soul-crushing
# [13:04] <jgraham> wilhelm: I blame you :p
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# [13:38] <zcorpan> jgraham: http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/image/32354094056
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# [13:43] <jgraham> zcorpan: Sure, but why did you mention it now? unload-a-document?
# [13:43] <jgraham> Those are websockets tests
# [13:43] <jgraham> Although depend on navigation
# [13:43] <zcorpan> jgraham: yeah
# [13:43] <jgraham> Ah, OK
# [13:44] <hsivonen> annevk: what's the twitter handle for Encoding Standard? I thought @encoding, but it looks like it's not it.
# [13:44] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://encoding.spec.whatwg.org says it's https://twitter.com/encodings
# [13:44] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
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# [13:52] <wilhelm> jgraham: I blame Tarquin!
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# [14:13] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Looks like https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/1364 is one for you once zcorpan has finished it?
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# [14:20] <zcorpan> now i wonder why http://w3c-test.org/submissions/927/selectors/attribute-selectors/attribute-case/syntax.html doesn't show up
# [14:20] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: ^
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# [14:32] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: dunno but maybe the script is wedged
# [14:33] <MikeSmith> maybe you don't have the right perms
# [14:33] <MikeSmith> it says you're just Collaborator
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# [14:34] <MikeSmith> hmm something borked
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# [14:55] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: github logs show the hook ran successfully
# [14:55] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: weird
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# [14:58] <MikeSmith> grepping the log file is made more difficult by the fact it's full of binary data
# [15:00] <MikeSmith> hmm log seems to indicate it's not gettin the signature it expects
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# [15:19] <annevk> Haha, my landlord is such a troll. Finally replies after months, asks for a swift reply
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# [16:07] <zewt> browsers need an option to force session cookies to be regular persistent cookies
# [16:07] <zewt> the concept doesn't even make sense now, i keep browser windows open for a month at a time, so it just means i have to log into a bunch of random sites for no good reason after i restart the browser
# [16:08] <zewt> that or the browser could persist the session cookies when it restores tabs, i guess
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# [16:45] <annevk> JakeA: it seems we forgot about form-action
# [16:45] <JakeA> annevk: As a context?
# [16:45] <annevk> JakeA: yes
# [16:46] <JakeA> annevk: Ahh yes, we need that
# [16:46] <JakeA> annevk: Can you make a ticket for that?
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# [16:46] <annevk> JakeA: I guess I'll add it to Fetch and then whenever you sync with Fetch...
# [16:46] <JakeA> annevk: +1
# [16:46] * annevk is reviewing CSP to make sure CSP integrates with Fetch
# [16:47] <annevk> Hopefully that makes it easier down the line to evaluate how SW fits into all this
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# [16:50] <annevk> frame-ancestors seems somewhat tricky too
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# [17:25] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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# [17:33] <annevk> JakeA: emailed some questions related to this to public-webappsec
# [17:33] <annevk> JakeA: http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-fetch has a placeholder hook for CSP now
# [17:34] <annevk> JakeA: next I guess is placeholder hooks for SW
# [17:34] <JakeA> annevk: This is really cool. I can't imagine the amount of crawling through implementations and specs went into this
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# [17:52] <smaug____> annevk: xhr.responseURL isn't in anyway bound to http, right?
# [17:52] * smaug____ is reviewing something
# [17:52] <annevk> smaug____: no
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# [17:55] <annevk> smaug____: it's the "final request url" basically
# [17:55] <annevk> smaug____: adjusted for redirects and HSTS
# [17:56] <smaug____> annevk: with data: it would be just the url
# [17:56] <smaug____> and so on
# [17:56] <annevk> yup
# [17:57] <smaug____> for some reason the patch limited it to http(s)
# [17:58] <annevk> it'd be interesting to hear why he/she did that
# [17:59] <smaug____> I guess because there happened to be nice helper method to get httpchannel :)
# [18:00] <smaug____> (this might be his second patch or so)
# [18:00] <annevk> Hopefully one day Fetch is actually a module in browsers
# [18:01] <annevk> Servo could do it right
# [18:01] <annevk> And then the other browsers get jealous
# [18:01] <annevk> And then ... and then profit
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# [18:04] <jgraham> annevk: Well that doesn't obviously seem to be the way that servo is going
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# [18:05] <jgraham> It seems to be relying on some third-party lib for the network bits, and I guess that won't implement Fetch directly
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# [18:06] <annevk> jgraham: I think at this point they are probably not implementing much of data/blob/http handling correctly, let alone things like CSP and such
# [18:06] <jgraham> annevk: They aren't, but I don't know of plans to implement their own http
# [18:08] <jgraham> Basically I think no one is really working on the network layer in servo, so expecting it to come out matching specs that people outside the web community might be unaware of seems optimistic
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# [18:12] <annevk> Sooner or later they'll run into questions as to how bits of XMLHttpRequest need to work and learn
# [18:12] <annevk> Not too worried about that. The reason Servo can do this is because they don't have extension complexity
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# [18:21] <jgraham> Well XHR is supposed to be done this summer by a GSoC student, so we'll see how that pans out
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# [19:34] <KevinMarks_> has anyone done a survey of what ids look like on the web in the wild? Like Hixie did for classes?
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# [19:35] <KevinMarks_> come to that, what fragment links look like on the web too? I bet the dominant one is just #
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# [19:37] <paul_irish> KevinMarks_: for back-to-top ?
# [19:37] <KevinMarks_> no, all the pretend links put in to be overridden by js
# [19:38] <paul_irish> Ah yes. :) For sure.
# [19:38] <jory> I'd be really surprised is something other than '#' turned out to be the choice of most people.
# [19:39] <KevinMarks_> how do you mean, jory?
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# [19:40] <jory> In almost every project I've worked on where we've wanted to use anchors but have their behaviour completely dictated by the JS, we've used '#' as the href.
# [19:40] <KevinMarks_> I'm probably being unclear - I meant grepping a decent chunk of the web for links with fragments in, and seeing what the fragments look like
# [19:40] <jory> Ooo, sounds like an interesting study. I'd love to see the results of something like that.
# [19:41] <KevinMarks_> that, combined with a survey of what actual IDs look like
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# [19:42] <KevinMarks_> (I'm getting at the fragmention by default idea here) http://www.kevinmarks.com/poemfragmentions.html##cannot+contain
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# [20:32] <jcgregorio> KevinMarks: Why the space character as the trigger, aren't there a bunch of characters that are valid after the hash that aren't valid in an ID?
# [20:32] <KevinMarks_> I thought so, but nope. IDs can have anything in except a space
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# [20:33] <KevinMarks_> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/elements.html#the-id-attribute
# [20:33] <KevinMarks_> see the note in green
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# [20:34] <KevinMarks_> you could put %20 in an id I suppose but that's still OK
# [20:35] <KevinMarks_> it's actually the other way round - fewre valid chars in a fragment, but you can escape them reliably
# [20:36] <KevinMarks_> basically, I made up the syntax before reading the specs, then realised that I could make it even simpler
# [20:37] <KevinMarks_> ## makes a URL invalid per http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#appendix-A
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# [20:41] <jcgregorio> wow, that's a surprising, and a pain, space is your only escape hatch
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# [20:42] <KevinMarks_> actually, I think it's good and simplifying.
# [20:43] <jcgregorio> well, if you gobble up any space for fragmentations then there's no more escape hatches
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# [20:45] <jcgregorio> for example, {} aren't valid in a URI, they were reserved for future expansion
# [20:45] <jcgregorio> and we used them in URI Templates
# [20:45] <KevinMarks_> in fact, you don't even need a space, as you can tell if it's an ID quickly...
# [20:45] <jcgregorio> and in URI Templates = ! @ | and , are reserved for future extensions in URI Templates
# [20:46] <jcgregorio> right, but what if after fragmentations ships someone comes up with another cool idea
# [20:47] <jcgregorio> how would they differentiate between a fragmentation and their cool new thing
# [20:48] <jcgregorio> I would suggest having fragmentations start with +! and leave other fragments that start with +<some other char> as a future extension point
# [20:52] <KevinMarks_> I think #! fragments are already used for various things
# [20:53] <jcgregorio> ok +%, you get the idea :-)
# [20:53] <KevinMarks_> and searching for ! or % is a bit of a weird case
# [20:53] <jcgregorio> +:
# [20:54] <jcgregorio> true, but you could still do it, +!!, if you use ! as your character
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# [21:09] <JonathanNeal> KevinMarks_: messed with http://sandbox.thewikies.com/fragmentions/example.html since the changes? jcgregorio: i like what you’re saying about closing all of the escape hatches.
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# [21:10] <KevinMarks_> I don't think we are though
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# [21:11] <KevinMarks_> currently ID eats all possible fragments iff it exists. Fragmention catches some more cases
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# [21:11] <KevinMarks_> still room for other things to catch still more
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# [21:11] <JonathanNeal> Hmm, I agree.
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# [21:14] <KevinMarks_> we'll only catch ! or * or whatever in a fragment if both someone makes such a fragment AND the body contains that character sequence
# [21:14] <JonathanNeal> I just had not thought of it that way.
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# [21:30] <jcgregorio> KevinMarks: what's a case that wouldn't be an id nor a fragmentation?
# [21:30] <jcgregorio> I think I see what you are saying, in that something being an id or fragmentation is context dependent, depending on what's on the page
# [21:30] <jcgregorio> but that's no way to write a spec ;-)
# [21:30] <KevinMarks_> any sequence that isn't in the document
# [21:31] <KevinMarks_> fragmention BTW (i think you're being autocorrected)
# [21:31] <Domenic_> Woah a wild Hixie appears on Twitter!
# [21:32] <Hixie> hm?
# [21:32] <Hixie> i've posted 6 times this month
# [21:32] <Hixie> that's more times than i've posted publicly on g+ in the same time frame
# [21:33] <Hixie> 7 times on twitter in february
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# [21:34] <Domenic_> This was the first one that was @-ed to someone I follow
# [21:34] <Domenic_> so the first one I saw
# [21:35] <Hixie> aah
# [21:35] <Hixie> yeah i basically only use it to reply to people
# [21:35] * Hixie thinks the 140 character limit is absurd
# [21:36] <jcgregorio> KevinMarks: autocorrected by my own fingers :-)
# [21:37] <Hixie> ok. compare the top of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/ to the top of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/
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# [21:37] <Hixie> poll: which do you prefer?
# [21:37] <Hixie> bonus question: do you have any better ideas for making this more approachable?
# [21:37] <Domenic_> I prefer the multipage version because it's loaded whereas the singlepage version is still blank ;)
# [21:38] <Hixie> yeah well i mean aside from that :-P
# [21:39] <Domenic_> Hmm this is nicer. Hard to say.
# [21:39] <jcgregorio> Hixie: maybe color code for function?
# [21:39] <Hixie> jcgregorio: good idea. which colours for which buttons?
# [21:40] <jcgregorio> irc, twitter and mailing list in blue
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# [21:40] <jcgregorio> file a bug, open bugs, and email the editor in red
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# [21:41] <KevinMarks_> jcgregorio: there's already a multistage reolution algorithm here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/history.html#the-indicated-part-of-the-document
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# [21:42] <KevinMarks_> so before #8, we insert fragmention processing to find the target be searching the text for the decoded fragid and picking the smallest containing element
# [21:43] <KevinMarks_> so you can't currently use "top" as a fragmention
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# [21:43] <KevinMarks_> and any other future ones can insert themselves there
# [21:44] <Hixie> jcgregorio: trying that, thanks...
# [21:45] <jcgregorio> Hixie: and all the versions multipage/onepage/pdf/dev as another color
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# [21:45] <jcgregorio> sorry, I run out of ideas outside of the three primary :-)
# [21:45] <Hixie> :-)
# [21:46] <Hixie> i tried using https://kuler.adobe.com/create/color-wheel to pick the colours, but they seem kinda ugly
# [21:46] <KevinMarks_> funny how all chat-related things are blue
# [21:46] <Hixie> (using "whatwg green", 3C790A, as the base)
# [21:47] <Hixie> hm, actually, it does kinda work
# [21:47] <TabAtkins> KevinMarks_: Dont' pay any attention to 3986. Read the URL spec isntead.
# [21:47] <Hixie> jcgregorio: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/
# [21:48] <TabAtkins> KevinMarks_: http://url.spec.whatwg.org/
# [21:48] <KevinMarks_> fair, TabAtkins, but the same is true there
# [21:48] <TabAtkins> All right, cool. Didn'
# [21:48] <TabAtkins> Just didn't want you looking at the wrong thing. ^^;
# [21:49] <KevinMarks_> a fragment can have http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#url-code-points which don't include #
# [21:49] <KevinMarks_> so my ## is still invalid
# [21:49] <KevinMarks_> derp
# [21:49] <KevinMarks_> even though browsers seem to parse ti happily
# [21:51] <jcgregorio> Hixie: http://tinyurl.com/mh3za2q
# [21:51] <jcgregorio> my attempt at a pallette
# [21:51] <Hixie> jcgregorio: yeah, i was just playing with it again and came to more or less the same one
# [21:51] <jcgregorio> :-)
# [21:51] <Hixie> ok, orange, i guess, for the remaining ones. and green for the versions.
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# [21:53] * Hixie regens
# [21:57] <Hixie> jcgregorio: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/ look ok?
# [21:57] <KevinMarks_> looks a bit like http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2009/09/dhs-threat1.jpg
# [21:58] <Hixie> i'd love to find an even better way of doign this
# [21:58] <Hixie> i'm not really happy with it
# [21:58] <Hixie> it's better than the <dl>, but...
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# [21:59] <jcgregorio> yeah, I like the idea, but the colors seem a little strong
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# [22:02] * Hixie tries halving the saturation of each one
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# [22:06] <Hixie> no, that doesn't help. maybe halving the lightness...
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# [22:09] <Domenic_> Hixie: http://forums.whatwg is not a complete URL
# [22:09] <Hixie> oops
# [22:09] <Hixie> fixed
# [22:09] <Hixie> thanks
# [22:10] <KevinMarks_> no whatwg tld yet?
# [22:10] <Hixie> jcgregorio: what do you think of the current colours?
# [22:10] <KevinMarks_> we're behind .guitars
# [22:10] <Hixie> KevinMarks_: not on this budget ;-)
# [22:10] <Domenic_> current colors seem pretty reasonable
# [22:10] <Hixie> try reloading to make sure you're seeing the current ones
# [22:11] <Hixie> i changed them 3 times in the last 3 minutes
# [22:11] <KevinMarks_> pretty good; the orange is a bit turdy
# [22:11] <Hixie> :-)
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# [22:11] <Hixie> KevinMarks_: i don't want to know what you're eating :-P
# [22:11] <Domenic_> "open bugs" sounds like a verb phrase not a noun phrase
# [22:11] <jcgregorio> Hixie: yeah, that's a lot better
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# [22:11] <Domenic_> oh hmm these darker ones are interesting
# [22:12] <Hixie> Domenic_: good point
# [22:12] <Hixie> changed to "View Open Bugs"
# [22:12] <Hixie> ok. i'm gonna go with this.
# [22:12] <Hixie> if anyone has any ideas for a more radical change, please do let me know.
# [22:12] <Domenic_> fun times
# [22:13] <Domenic_> do you feel there's value in separating the HTML FAQ from the WHATWG FAQ?
# [22:13] <Hixie> there's an HTML FAQ?
# [22:13] <Hixie> oh you mean the HTML subsectiosn of the WHATWG FAQ?
# [22:13] <Domenic_> Well whatwg.org/faq currently serves as both
# [22:13] <Domenic_> e.g. the HTML spec links to the WHATWG FAQ as "faq"
# [22:13] <SamB> wait, you mean there's a non-HTML section?
# [22:14] <Hixie> nah, i think it's fine. if people have questions about other specs I'm happy for those questions to be in that list too.
# [22:14] <Hixie> we already have too many places to point people to
# [22:14] <Hixie> witness this very long list of buttons
# [22:14] <Hixie> or the whatwg.org home page
# [22:14] <Domenic_> yeah that's fair.
# [22:14] <Hixie> let's not add more :-)
# [22:15] <KevinMarks_> I do have a veggie lasagne that is close to that colour
# [22:15] <Domenic_> I guess things just get a bit confused e.g. "which parts of the spec are stable" and onward inside "The WHATWG Process" are somewhat HTML-specific, whereas the rest of that section is about the WHATWG and Living Standards generally.
# [22:15] <Hixie> yeah that stuff should be cleaned up
# [22:15] <Hixie> feel free to hack at it if you want
# [22:15] <Hixie> i'll get to it eventually otherwise
# [22:15] <Domenic_> When I was reading it for the first time I wasn't clear how much applied to general WHATWG working model vs. HTML only
# [22:16] <Domenic_> I might do that yeah
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# [22:16] <Domenic_> do i even have an account? hmm, I've never wanted to add a <meta> tag, so unclear.
# [22:16] <Hixie> e-mail? i'll add you one
# [22:17] <Domenic_> domenic@domenicdenicola.com
# [22:17] <Hixie> multipage spec is updated, in case anyone lurking was too scared to open the single-page spec but wants to know what we were chatting about :-)
# [22:18] <Hixie> done
# [22:18] * SamB wonders about the system requirements of the single-page spec
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# [22:18] <Hixie> ok i gotta run before the cafes close. back in a bit.
# [22:18] <jcgregorio> Hixie: the only problem is the illusory dots that appear at the intersections
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# [22:19] <Hixie> wow i didn't see those until you pointed them out and now i feel almost ill :-P
# [22:19] <Hixie> yikes
# [22:19] <Hixie> bbl
# [22:20] <jcgregorio> yeah, I didn't see it until I was a little further from the monitor
# [22:20] <mathiasbynens> Hixie: the link to http://validators.whatwg.org/ is broken
# [22:21] <SamB> Hixie: the METAFONTbook has some tips about that ;-P
# [22:21] <mathiasbynens> Hixie: as in, the link works, but the URL doesn’t resolve for me
# [22:21] <SamB> or, well, at least an example
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# [22:37] <JonathanNeal> So, on the pros/cons of # versus ## for fragmentions. Pros for # is that its characters are valid, it falls back to ID. Pros for ## is that it is unique, and does not conflict with ID. The con for # is the reserved word "top" and other taken IDs. The con for ## is its invalidity. Thoughts? Disagreements?
# [22:41] <jcgregorio> actually, "con for # is the reserved work "top" and other taken IDs" isn't true because they don't have spaces, right?
# [22:42] <JonathanNeal> jcgregorio: if we made at least one space character a requirement for fragmentions, perhaps.
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# [22:53] <SamB> JonathanNeal: what invalidity?
# [22:54] <SamB> I mean, what actually cares?
# [22:54] <JonathanNeal> SamB: page.html##term is invalid because of the ##. The spec and validators care. Browsers do not care.
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# [22:55] <SamB> which validotors? regular ones, or just stuff like link checkers?
# [22:55] <SamB> er, *validators
# [22:56] <SamB> JonathanNeal: also is there a thread or a draft this discussion is referring to?
# [22:56] <JonathanNeal> There are at least two, SamB, one is https://github.com/chapmanu/fragmentions
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# [22:57] <Hixie> mathiasbynens: thanks, fixed
# [22:57] <SamB> and, er, has anyone mentioned a more powerful mechanism for use on html?
# [22:57] <Hixie> SamB: any idea what the tips are? :-)
# [23:00] <SamB> hmm, what intersections are we talking about here?
# [23:00] <zewt> JonathanNeal: pages might be using ##foo in scripts; don't know how to find out
# [23:00] <SamB> zewt: clearly program the browser to spy on the users
# [23:00] <JonathanNeal> SamB: the other is http://indiewebcamp.com/fragmention
# [23:00] <zewt> duh
# [23:00] <zewt> when I use custom hashes for script navigation i normally run the hash part through encodeURIComponent, which avoids that issue
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# [23:01] <zewt> JonathanNeal: if there is some unused part of the URL hash space to be used, i'd strongly question whether it's worth using it up on this feature...
# [23:02] <Hixie> SamB: those on the html spec's new header
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# [23:02] <SamB> ah
# [23:02] <SamB> for some reason I was looking at the frontpage
# [23:02] <JonathanNeal> zewt: are you referring to ## versus #? If so, that is an argument in favor of ##.
# [23:03] <SamB> oh, I think these are different dots
# [23:03] <SamB> I don't know how to deal with them
# [23:03] <zewt> i've used #? myself
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# [23:03] <zewt> with URLs that look like http://foo.com/server/path?server=data#client/path?client=data (where client/path may be empty)
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# [23:04] <zewt> so I get analogous paths and key/values, for both the server (path and query) and client (encoded into the hash)
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# [23:05] <JonathanNeal> zewt: in those cases, what is the probability of matching that to text on the screen?
# [23:05] <zewt> no idea
# [23:05] <JonathanNeal> But again, that is a chief argument in favor of ##.
# [23:05] <SamB> zewt: hmm, I guess that makes sense if you've things that you don't want to interfere with caching because the server doesn't use them anyway ...
# [23:06] <SamB> anyway this seems like a dumb fad
# [23:06] <SamB> I want my xpath fragments!
# [23:06] <zewt> well, my concern (wouldn't call it an argument at this point) is whether the feature is useful enough to use up some rare still-unused way of encoding something into the hash (if it is one)
# [23:06] <SamB> maybe not so dumb for text/plain
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# [23:06] <JonathanNeal> Or for blogs, or long articles, or anything with text.
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# [23:07] <SamB> anyway, it seems like it should leave room for OTHER possible uses
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# [23:08] <JonathanNeal> Do you believe ## does this?
# [23:08] <SamB> I mean by having some kind of a name before the, uh, query ...
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# [23:09] <JonathanNeal> That is what the second hash provides, no?
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# [23:12] <SamB> no!
# [23:12] <zewt> SamB: do you mean making it something like http://foo.com##word=foo, so "##" can be used for other things and not be used up completely
# [23:12] <SamB> yeah
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# [23:13] <SamB> preferably allowing one to still have a regular fragment, too, in case you have one of those AJAX sites that needs that to even have the right content ...
# [23:13] <zewt> that's really hard, i think
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# [23:13] * SamB already wants two fragment identifiers sometimes :-(
# [23:13] <zewt> since there's no standardization about how to parse hash-as-script-data itself, which means we don't know how to pull this extra data off of it
# [23:14] <zewt> could try to define something, but that could be more of a battle...
# [23:14] <SamB> yeah
# [23:14] <SamB> but
# [23:15] <zewt> eg. with my /path?query#path?query scheme, I never put # in the right-hand side (since it always gets escaped, just like it does on the left side), so I could use /path?data#path?data##other-stuff
# [23:15] <zewt> ... but that's just me, heh
# [23:15] <zewt> actually, make the ## a single # in that example
# [23:15] <SamB> well, that's what the spying is for!
# [23:15] <zewt> (the first # of ## is the one in "data#path")
# [23:15] <SamB> hmm, I was figuring you'd only count two # in a row as the extra stuff ...
# [23:16] <zewt> in other words, one way you could define this is "data after the first # in the hash"
# [23:16] <SamB> that seems more likely to be a problem than requiring exactly ## ?
# [23:16] <zewt> rather, "after the first # in the fragment"
# [23:17] <zewt> ("#foo" is the hash, "foo" is the fragment, right?)
# [23:17] <Hixie> well i made a change, but it didn't help with the dots illusion like i hoped it would!
# [23:17] <Hixie> bbiab, meeting
# [23:17] <zewt> possibly
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# [23:17] <SamB> hmm, one way to get rid of the dots illusion might be actual dots?
# [23:18] <zewt> it would also mean that if we have more features using that mechanism, we could say http://foo.com#client stuff#word=hello#other_stuff=world
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# [23:18] <SamB> Hixie: having a whole screenfull of bright shiny links at the top of the spec seems kind of excessive ...
# [23:18] <zewt> where this feature looks for "#word=" (which might not be the first #thing)
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# [23:18] <SamB> zewt: I was figuring use e.g. ##word=
# [23:19] <zewt> maybe
# [23:19] <SamB> but, um, pull them out of the fragment?
# [23:19] <zewt> trying to think if it makes more sense to think of this in terms of fragments or hashes
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# [23:20] <zewt> i think it makes sense in hashes (not so much in fragments)
# [23:20] <zewt> that is, as a mental model
# [23:21] <zewt> (again--just to be clear, since it's a bit obscure--the hash of a URL means it includes the delimiting "#", where fragment doesn't ... assuming I'm not getting it wrong)
# [23:21] <zewt> so in terms of hashes, if you have a hash and you want to add a search link to it, you'd say myHash += "##word=" + encodeURIComponent(word) (assuming there isn't one in there already), which makes sense
# [23:22] <SamB> anyway, with such a framework in place -- even if it only supported one such thing in a URL -- it'd be obvious how to allow use of xpath/css ...
# [23:23] <zewt> probably missed part of the conversation, but what's the link to those?
# [23:23] <zewt> oh, for styling the result?
# [23:23] <zewt> (wait, that'd be css but not xpath)
# [23:23] <SamB> no, I meant if you wanted to do that instead of searching for a phrase
# [23:24] <zewt> just a first impression, but ew :)
# [23:24] <SamB> just use ##css= or ##xpath=
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# [23:24] <SamB> well what if I want to find a *header* containing specific text?
# [23:25] <zewt> would they have to combine, eg. ##css=h1#text=Intro
# [23:26] <zewt> ("first H1 containing Intro")
# [23:26] <zewt> er ##text
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# [23:26] <SamB> I was thinking that one would probably use xpath -- xpath can do that right?
# [23:26] <zewt> i'd avoid xpath like the plague
# [23:27] <zewt> css selectors are way more usable in practice, and it seems nicer that since you really have an "and" query, do the text query the same way (whether or not you're narrowing it further with css)
# [23:27] <SamB> okay, so, how about an image with specific alt or title text?
# [23:27] <zewt> ##css=img[alt="foo"]
# [23:28] <SamB> yeah, I know how to do it; that was a motivating use case
# [23:29] <zewt> i know i don't ever want to use xpath if selectors are available :P
# [23:29] <jensnockert> Xpath is <3.
# [23:29] <zewt> itym 3<
# [23:29] <SamB> well, that's why you'd never want just xpath
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# [23:30] <SamB> assuming xpath doesn't have a convenient way to use selectors anyway
# [23:30] <zewt> i'd avoid using xpath in a new platform feature at all; don't add two ways to do something
# [23:31] <zewt> is there a realistic (not overly contrived) example of where it'd need xpath and selectors aren't enough?
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# [23:31] <KevinMarks_> you're all missing the point a bit - css and xpath are all about invisible document stucture, which we care about but most authors don't
# [23:32] <zewt> KevinMarks_: not missing the point at all (that's one of my questions--who is the user of this?), trying to understand the goals
# [23:32] <KevinMarks_> whereas fragmentions are about text content, which is what the authros of annotations, commenst and references are thinking about
# [23:32] <KevinMarks_> I wrote up the thought process at http://www.kevinmarks.com/fragmentions.html
# [23:33] <zewt> a css selector feature could allow UAs to have a context menu "link to this place in the document", for example
# [23:33] <KevinMarks_> it came from the Annotations WG, which had a lot of intersting use cases for this
# [23:33] <KevinMarks_> so can fragmentions
# [23:33] <KevinMarks_> er wrokshop, not WG yet
# [23:34] <zewt> (grr, what happened to browsers having a "disable page style" option; this font is hard to read)
# [23:34] <KevinMarks_> the medium version is prettier https://medium.com/everything-branches-out-until/41ef2be9953f
# [23:34] <KevinMarks_> I suck at design
# [23:34] <zewt> (this page is rambling too much, heh)
# [23:35] <KevinMarks_> it's an essay, not a spec
# [23:35] <KevinMarks_> http://indiewebcamp.com/fragmention is more speccy
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# [23:36] <KevinMarks_> but playing with the prollyfill and browser extension we have, this works very nicely in UX becasue you can just type #words+to+link
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# [23:37] <zewt> really needs a qualifier like we talked about above
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# [23:38] <zewt> this feature probably shouldn't require users to type stuff into the URL themselves anyway; better for the UA to do it for them (eg. select text, right click, select "copy link to this text", something along those lines)
# [23:38] <JonathanNeal> KevinMarks_: if someone asks for a “spec” I will link them to iwc then
# [23:38] <KevinMarks_> zewt: of course
# [23:38] <zewt> that is, saying "##text=xxx" instead of "##xxx" isn't a user cost
# [23:39] <KevinMarks_> yes it is
# [23:39] <KevinMarks_> really
# [23:39] <zewt> it isn't, they're not typing it out
# [23:39] <KevinMarks_> some of them are
# [23:39] <zewt> and using up "##" on one isolated feature should be a complete non-starter
# [23:39] <KevinMarks_> assuming "no-one every types html" is how we get xhtml
# [23:39] <KevinMarks_> "using up" is such BS
# [23:40] <KevinMarks_> by that logic, as IDs can contain anything, all fragments are used up now
# [23:40] <zewt> (if "##" is available for use with minimal web compat issues, then let's use it in a way that doesn't pretend this feature exists in a vacuum)
# [23:40] <KevinMarks_> #! is used up by IDs
# [23:40] <KevinMarks_> by your definition of "used up"
# [23:40] <zewt> funny, I didn't give a definition (you did, then claimed it was mine)
# [23:41] <zewt> quit the hyperbole, it doesn't help the discussion
# [23:41] <KevinMarks_> you said this proposal uses up the namespace
# [23:41] <KevinMarks_> I say it doesn't
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# [23:42] <zewt> so you're saying you can still use ## for linking to a css selector alongside this feature? seems unlikely
# [23:42] <KevinMarks_> yes
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# [23:42] <KevinMarks_> want proof?
# [23:42] <zewt> ##table could mean "find the text table" or "find a <table>"
# [23:43] <KevinMarks_> http://sandbox.thewikies.com/fragmentions/example.html
# [23:43] <zewt> saying ##text=foo is no more of a cost than query keys (and fits next to them naturally, as a nice bonus)
# [23:43] <KevinMarks_> see 'an element with an id of #b1
# [23:44] <zewt> not sure what I'm supposed to be seeing
# [23:45] <KevinMarks_> I can link to a phrase with http://sandbox.thewikies.com/fragmentions/example.html#phrases+as+anchors
# [23:45] <zewt> having ##table search for both the string "table" and the first <table> seems bad to me
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# [23:46] <KevinMarks_> is ## searching for elements an existing thing, or did you just make it up?
# [23:46] <zewt> what?
# [23:46] <KevinMarks_> or are you using CSS syntax?
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# [23:46] <KevinMarks_> http://sandbox.thewikies.com/fragmentions/example.html##b1
# [23:46] <KevinMarks_> links to the element with id "#b1"
# [23:47] <zewt> the whole discussion is about the idea of using CSS selectors in the anchor (one possible future feature that might live alongside this)
# [23:47] <zewt> er, in the hash
# [23:47] <zewt> talking about css selectors, not just ids
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# [23:48] <KevinMarks_> OK, so that's a separate proposal
# [23:48] <zewt> (not advocating for supporting css selectors like this, rather using it as an example of something that this would get in the way of if done wrongly)
# [23:48] <KevinMarks_> frankly if you want that, go with #$ and just use jquery syntax
# [23:48] <zewt> ugh
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# [23:48] <zewt> every new feature shouldn't need to find its own magic sequence of characters (and have to do a bunch of research to figure out the web compat implications, and make URL syntax yet weirder and weirder)
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# [23:49] <KevinMarks_> agreed
# [23:49] <KevinMarks_> which is why i want to make this simple
# [23:49] <SamB> that doesn't make sense
# [23:49] <SamB> unless you mean something different by "keep this simple" than I think you mean
# [23:49] <zewt> ##text=search+text##css=table>tr
# [23:50] <KevinMarks_> your argument is that is less weird?
# [23:50] <zewt> the idea that adding "text=" to it is such a burden that any future features should just make up their own magic characters is the sort of non-forward-thinking that lead to the mess of needing "##" in the first place
# [23:51] <KevinMarks_> I say we can get rid of ##
# [23:51] <KevinMarks_> and just use #
# [23:51] <zewt> that isn't weird at all, it's just like the query part of the URL and could probably be parsed with the same code
# [23:51] <KevinMarks_> like http://sandbox.thewikies.com/fragmentions/example.html#remote+annotation
# [23:51] <zewt> well, & vs. ## is different, so not quite that
# [23:52] <zewt> but the key/value scheme should be very familiar to everyone
# [23:52] <KevinMarks_> & is prcessed server-side # is processed client side
# [23:52] <zewt> irrelevant
# [23:53] <SamB> query parameters are in fact sometimes ignored server-side and used only on the client
# [23:53] <zewt> the point of ## is making it possible to use this alongside client-side hashes, at least some of them
# [23:53] <zewt> for example, it could be used (in principle) with Gmail's URLs, which look like mail.google.com/mail/a/b/c#foo/bar
# [23:54] <zewt> resulting in mail.google.com/mail/a/b/c#foo/bar##text=hello
# [23:54] <SamB> I'm thinking something that more than one person can normally access would perhaps make more sense as an example?
# [23:55] <zewt> yeah, thus "in principle" :)
# [23:55] <SamB> maybe groups?
# [23:55] <zewt> (doesn't mean it'd Just Work in every case, and probably wouldn't in many, but using just # would basically never work alongside client hashes)
# [23:55] <zewt> incidentally, this could also be used to maybe fix the problem that you can't use id anchors at all with sites that use # for other things
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# [23:56] <zewt> http://foo.com#clientdata##anchor=toc interpreted like http://foo.com#toc would have been used if the clientdata stuff wasn't there
# [23:56] <KevinMarks_> zewt requiring spaces in the fragmention meets all those objections
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# [23:56] <SamB> I don't think "client-side" is the term you want to be using though, as plain old fragments are client-side too ...
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# [23:56] <SamB> KevinMarks_: nooo it doesn't
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# [23:57] <KevinMarks_> these are frgaments
# [23:57] <KevinMarks_> they are still parseable by client code
# [23:57] <KevinMarks_> we just change how they resolve to target a bit
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# [23:58] <KevinMarks_> all your examples above have the same issue
# [23:58] <KevinMarks_> I could have an element with id="#clientdata##anchor=toc"
# [23:59] <KevinMarks_> which would mean that it would be the target
# [23:59] <KevinMarks_> or id="#foo/bar"
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# Session Close: Fri Apr 25 00:00:00 2014

The end :)