/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-05-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu May 08 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:09] <MikeSmith> Hixie: "that was due to some DB maintenance earlier, shouldn't be an ongoing thing", I'm told
  7. # [00:09] <MikeSmith> as far as the 504s earlier today
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  11. # [00:13] <zewt> is there somebody specific i can hate for the tcp thing where I randomly have to sit around and twiddle my thumbs for a couple minutes unless I figure out how to set SO_REUSEADDR
  12. # [00:14] <Hixie> MikeSmith: k
  13. # [00:14] <Hixie> zewt: oh man, the unix sockets api.
  14. # [00:14] <Hixie> what a pain.
  15. # [00:14] <zewt> well it's the kernel socket layer causing the problem, not the api itself
  16. # [00:15] <zewt> but yeah, heh
  17. # [00:15] <Hixie> in other twiddling news, i twiddled the spec style sheet again
  18. # [00:15] <Hixie> hope y'all don't lose your collective minds again :-P
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  20. # [00:19] <Hixie> man, @scope is simultaneously awesome in its coolness and power, and frightening in its implications on the cascade
  21. # [00:19] <Hixie> i hope we've staffed up the support lines for more specificity/cascade confusion. :-)
  22. # [00:19] <Hixie> TabAtkins: ^
  23. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> Yeah, we might drop it.
  24. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> The cascade implications are confusing.
  25. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> And the optimizations we might want to do to scoped styles are less good if they're overused.
  26. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> Just doing nesting is probably better.
  27. # [00:20] <zewt> what's confusing, when you can open the inspector and see the css rules applying to an element and their order?
  28. # [00:23] <Hixie> TabAtkins: is @global something anyone cares about, or should i just drop that?
  29. # [00:24] <SamB> Hixie: well, define "cares about"
  30. # [00:25] <Hixie> that anyone will implement
  31. # [00:25] <SamB> because I'd kind of prefer were required NOT to implement that, personally ...
  32. # [00:26] <SamB> +it
  33. # [00:26] <Hixie> k well nobody seems to have championed it so i guess i'll drop it
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  37. # [00:38] <zewt> remind me what @global is?
  38. # [00:38] <zewt> escape from @scope?
  39. # [00:38] <SamB> zewt: that's the thing I don't want to exist, certainly
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  41. # [00:39] <SamB> zewt: or from <style scoped>, no?
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  44. # [00:40] <zewt> i don't know what the use cases are, but it seems nice to be able to know for sure that if you insert a DOM tree inside a scoped stylesheet, it's not capable of breaking out of that and affecting other things (intentionally or not)
  45. # [00:40] <SamB> zewt: actually I think it'
  46. # [00:40] <zewt> but i'm assuming i know what we're talking about when I probably don't
  47. # [00:40] <SamB> er, that is, it's still possible to get out of the box, I think
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  49. # [00:41] <SamB> possibly you'd need a particular attribute along with the <style scoped>
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  51. # [00:41] <zewt> font-face, etc. are still scoped, right? (i remember some suggestions for font-face to not be scoped, which seemed like a terrible idea)
  52. # [00:41] <SamB> Hixie: hmm, so what is supposed to happen if a <style> without <scoped> appears in the body anyway?
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  54. # [00:42] <SamB> zewt: you mean @font-face ?
  55. # [00:42] <zewt> yeah
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  57. # [00:42] <Hixie> zewt: yeah, it was the escape mechanism
  58. # [00:42] <Hixie> SamB: same as if it's in the head
  59. # [00:43] <SamB> presumably instead of making that not-scoped, browsers should just, you know, hash-cons them ...
  60. # [00:43] <Hixie> SamB: (but it's invalid)
  61. # [00:43] <Hixie> @font-face and company aren't scoped, which seems terrible to me
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  63. # [00:43] <Hixie> same with counter styles, etc
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  65. # [00:43] <SamB> Hixie: Ah. It seems like the spec very carefully doesn't actually SAY that it should act that way.
  66. # [00:43] <zewt> yuck, they definitely need to be scoped
  67. # [00:44] <Hixie> SamB: really?
  68. # [00:44] <SamB> hmm, well, that's what I remember thinking anyway
  69. # [00:44] <SamB> my memory is terrible though
  70. # [00:44] <Hixie> heh
  71. # [00:44] * Hixie just uses the spec as his memory :-)
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  73. # [00:46] <zewt> do you remember why they were made non-scoped? (wondering if there's any point to filing a bug to reopen that conversation)
  74. # [00:46] <SamB> I think it would be better to ban them in scopes for now ...
  75. # [00:46] <zewt> i guess i could find out for myself, i think i was in that thread
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  77. # [00:47] <zewt> they should just be scoped like anything else
  78. # [00:47] <SamB> (if it's because it's too hard to implement them scoped properly)
  79. # [00:47] <Hixie> zewt: it turns out to not be obvious what it means to scope them
  80. # [00:48] <SamB> so, um, ban them until it becomes obvious?
  81. # [00:48] <zewt> it seems obvious from the author's perspective, anyway, though my mental picture of what scoping stylesheets actually means could be wrong
  82. # [00:49] <Hixie> zewt: like, suppose that an element has the font-family 'foo', and that there's a @font-family rule that sets 'foo'. Now suppose there's a scoped section that introduces a new font called 'foo'. An element in that section has 'font: inherit'. What font should it use?
  83. # [00:49] <SamB> it is reasonably easy to find out what authors would expect: ban it for now and wait for them to show what they wanted to use it for but can't
  84. # [00:49] <Hixie> SamB: yeah, maybe. dunno. not my spec, not my problem. :-)
  85. # [00:49] <SamB> Hixie: so it's a dynamic/lexical scope issue?
  86. # [00:49] <Hixie> it's a cascade/inheritance issue
  87. # [00:50] <SamB> oh right
  88. # [00:50] <SamB> didn't read far enough
  89. # [00:50] <SamB> I was thinking "one of the outer rules references a name that's rebound in the scope, and applies to one of the inner elements"
  90. # [00:51] <zewt> seems like if you're <div><style scoped>xxx</style>yyy</div><div>zzz</div>, yyy should act exactly as though the @scoped attribute wasn't present, and zzz should act as if the <style scoped> node doesn't even exist
  91. # [00:51] <SamB> Hixie: I'd go with inherit the font actually used outside
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  95. # [00:54] <zewt> afk
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  97. # [00:56] <Hixie> SamB: the issue you raise is another one, yeah
  98. # [00:56] <Hixie> font-family is currently just a bunch of strings, so to make it work as y'all are describing it would need to change to a much more elaborate model
  99. # [00:57] <Hixie> which has huge performance implications
  100. # [00:57] <Hixie> which isn't good for something as core to web rendering as "picking a font"
  101. # [00:57] <Hixie> in other news, https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/static-resource/seal-of-approval-left.png is awesome.
  102. # [00:58] <SamB> Hixie: couldn't it just be a list of pointers to font-faces ?
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  104. # [00:58] <SamB> but IMO plain ban putting it in @scoped/<style scoped> rather than doing something stupid with it
  105. # [00:59] <Hixie> if it's a list of pointers, then taking getComputedStyle() and sticking it back into style="" would actually chnage the style.
  106. # [00:59] <Hixie> anyway this isn't my spec so i dunno
  107. # [01:00] <SamB> Hixie: oh right
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  111. # [01:15] <zewt> Hixie: not sure how it's any worse than css selectors, though
  112. # [01:16] <zewt> where you're doing much more complicated lookups
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  114. # [01:17] <zewt> i mean, if it's hard to implement a stack of scoped font-face values efficiently, i'd think a stack of scoped css rules would be far worse
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  170. # [03:46] <MikeSmith> cabanier: so I reckon if I keep helping with preparation for this 2dcontext LCWD it's likely to end up costing me a full day of time I'd rather have spent working on other things that I actually care about
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  175. # [04:04] <cabanier> MikeSmith: sorry...
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  303. # [10:37] <hsivonen> oh the annoyance of running irssi and bugzilla on the same host an a naive bugzilla installation being so prone to DoS
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  312. # [11:02] <zcorpan> woah https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25478#c15
  313. # [11:02] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: are you ok?
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  315. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah. sorry about that comment
  316. # [11:09] <zcorpan> if you refuse to implement the change in v.nu that seems like a useful data point, but it was a bit hidden behind the rage :-P
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  318. # [11:11] <zcorpan> what happened with http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2011/7/14/1310661708437/LulzSec-logo-001.jpg ? :-)
  319. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: point taken :)
  320. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I was experimenting with trying out my alternate "rage persona"
  321. # [11:20] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: ok, that's cool
  322. # [11:20] <zcorpan> i'm not complaining i was just surprised
  323. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> but I think we can agree the experiment failed
  324. # [11:23] <tobie> darobin not being around, would appreciate review/comments for my pull request adding MapClass support to the WebIDL parser: https://github.com/darobin/webidl2.js/pull/10. Anyone?
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  326. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> tobie: I can look at it in 4 hours or so, if nobody gets to it first. On my mobile now
  327. # [11:26] <tobie> ^ ty MikeSmith
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  329. # [11:31] <annevk> mathiasbynens: not sure APIs for encodings are suitable for base64
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  334. # [11:43] <JonathanNeal> Hello!
  335. # [11:46] <mathiasbynens> annevk: i meant separate APIs
  336. # [11:47] <mathiasbynens> one like atob/btoa for base64{en,de}coding ASCII or octets in “binary strings”
  337. # [11:47] <mathiasbynens> and then something like TextEncoder to turn any plain Unicode string into such “binary strings”
  338. # [11:47] <mathiasbynens> or does that not make sense?
  339. # [12:00] <annevk> mathiasbynens: does
  340. # [12:01] <annevk> mathiasbynens: well, TextEncoder is scalar values to bytes
  341. # [12:02] <mathiasbynens> annevk: did you see http://esdiscuss.org/topic/native-base64-utility-methods?
  342. # [12:02] <annevk> mathiasbynens: yes
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  344. # [12:03] <mathiasbynens> the counter-argument there seems to be that base64('any string') should work
  345. # [12:03] <mathiasbynens> but if you encode the string first, atob/btoa seem sufficient
  346. # [12:03] <annevk> atob and btoa are not going anywhere
  347. # [12:04] <annevk> mathiasbynens: I don't understand "(but it requires ArrayBuffer / Uint8Array)"
  348. # [12:06] <mathiasbynens> annevk: good point, that’s not an issue at all (i didn’t realize these things were now defined in the ES draft rather than a separate document)
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  351. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24382#c22 is interesting
  352. # [12:28] <tobie> MikeSmith: yeah, that lets broadcasters easily add targeted HTML overlays and the like. Good thing I don't watch TV.
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  427. # [15:12] <zcorpan> Hixie: would it be worthwhile to set up a hook for regenning the spec and committing in svn whenever my `source` changes?
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  446. # [15:51] <annevk> Where did zcorpan go?
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  449. # [15:55] <annevk> Domenic_: what was the proper way to talk again about an initial property value in ECMAScript
  450. # [15:56] <annevk> Domenic_: e.g. you want to invoke the Event() constructor, but not one overwritten by a page
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  472. # [16:39] <Domenic_> annevk: well, the "proper" (Allen-style) way is to define a per-realm %Event% intrinsic and refer to that instead. But I think "using the initial value of the Event constructor for this realm [or top-level browsing context]" seems good.
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  475. # [16:40] <Domenic_> The intrinsics approach is kind of nice for implementers, I would imagine, as it gives them a clear list of things that need to be saved away for use later.
  476. # [16:40] <annevk> heh, one day once IDL is maintained we should just make it have a good <dfn> for that
  477. # [16:40] <Domenic_> I'll add it to the jsidl issue just so I don't forget it...
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  484. # [16:52] <annevk> Domenic_: cool
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  504. # [17:22] <JonathanNeal> Any movement happening on query and queryAll? http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-parentnode-query
  505. # [17:23] <Domenic_> Implementations need to support ES6 subclassing first
  506. # [17:23] <Domenic_> BUT I think they could just return arrays for now
  507. # [17:24] <Domenic_> Also: https://github.com/barberboy/dom-elements
  508. # [17:25] <arunranga> Hi Domenic_ :) In your opinion, in lieu of AbortableProgressPromise for operations like move, what should be used? http://w3c.github.io/filesystem-api/Overview.html#the-directory-interface
  509. # [17:26] <Domenic_> arunranga: just Promise seems fine...
  510. # [17:26] <arunranga> That’s what I thought.
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  512. # [17:27] <JonathanNeal> Domenic_: what do you mean by subclassing? Are you referring to the live-ness of query/All?
  513. # [17:27] <zewt> mathiasbynens: there was discussion already for using TextEncoder/TextDecoder for base64 on the list, seems like the right thing to do
  514. # [17:27] <Domenic_> JonathanNeal: no, not at all. I mean support for subclassing implementation-provided classes. In particular, ES6 Symbol.create support is necessary.
  515. # [17:28] <arunranga> Next question, and sorry if I’ve missed past communication about this, but is https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.htm the new-and-better/more recent flavor of https://github.com/whatwg/streams ?
  516. # [17:28] <JonathanNeal> Domenic_: wow, no idea what those are. Things to learn.
  517. # [17:29] <Domenic_> It's in my blog post queue... Symbol.create and the subclassable built-ins it enables are my favorite thing, but it needs more publicity.
  518. # [17:29] <Domenic_> arunranga: nope, other way around.
  519. # [17:29] <arunranga> Domenic_ ahh, ok. The “date” on the editor’s draft at the w3.org URL is probably just auto-updated then.
  520. # [17:30] <Domenic_> arunranga: oh interesting
  521. # [17:30] <Domenic_> yeah I guess so, huh. https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/
  522. # [17:30] <arunranga> I think respec.js has a date updater, and this makes it look like the w3.org spec is updated as of today-ish.
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  524. # [17:31] <arunranga> OK well, I’m glad I asked :-)
  525. # [17:31] <Domenic_> :)
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  538. # [18:01] <mathiasbynens> zewt: “the list” meaning es-discuss?
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  551. # [18:29] <tyoshino____> Right. Sorry for confusing. W3C version is suspended. I'm a co-editor for it. We are working together with Domenic_ at WHATWG github now.
  552. # [18:30] <tyoshino____> re: Streams
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  566. # [19:00] <zewt> mathiasbynens: whatwg or webapps
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  575. # [19:19] <Hixie> zcorpan: the problem with such a hook is that it would jam in my half-complete changes as well :-)
  576. # [19:19] <Hixie> zcorpan: however if you ever make changes that aren't reflected within 24 hours, ping me
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  587. # [19:27] <jgraham> Hixie: Surely the solution to that is to have your thing create a copy of his input, and his thing use the last copy rather than the current file
  588. # [19:28] <jgraham> Er
  589. # [19:28] <jgraham> Your thing create a copy of your input
  590. # [19:28] <Hixie> it does.
  591. # [19:29] <Hixie> but sometimes i do this:
  592. # [19:29] <Hixie> 1. create edit
  593. # [19:29] <Hixie> 2. regen
  594. # [19:29] <Hixie> 3. edit the edit, but it's in a poorer state now (e.g. bad markup)
  595. # [19:29] <Hixie> 4. go to sleep
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  597. # [19:30] <Hixie> if zcorpan triggers a thing then, then you either blow away my step 1 changes, or inject my step 3 changes
  598. # [19:30] <Hixie> i guess i could make a copy of the copy when i regen
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  600. # [19:30] <Hixie> i'll have to add something like that when i get to that part of my new pipeline
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  602. # [19:30] <Hixie> right now i'm still just building the HTML parser :-)
  603. # [19:31] <Hixie> (only doing it in my free time, so...)
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  607. # [19:32] <Domenic_> rebuilding Git on top of svn, one step at a time.
  608. # [19:33] <jgraham> Yeah, it does seem like yor problem would be solved by correct use of a VCS
  609. # [19:34] <jgraham> But in the absence of that, I don't understand why making a copy duing step 2 wouldn't work
  610. # [19:34] <jgraham> If zcorpan caused a new build it would be based on the step 2 copy
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  612. # [19:35] <SamB> Hixie: What, no test instance or anything?
  613. # [19:35] <Hixie> i like to live on the edge, man!
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  615. # [19:36] <Hixie> jgraham: yeah, it could work
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  619. # [19:42] <Hixie> anyone know Frederik S (fs@opera.com)'s last name?
  620. # [19:42] <Ms2ger`> "W3C Invites Implementations of W3C DOM4"
  621. # [19:43] <Ms2ger`> Hixie, presumably "S"
  622. # [19:44] <Hixie> well that's always possible i guess
  623. # [19:44] <mathiasbynens> Hixie: Fredrik Söderquist
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  626. # [19:46] <Hixie> thanks!
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  639. # [19:54] <Hixie> MikeSmith: you around?
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  670. # [20:33] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Yeah, drop @global. (I saw you already have, just supporting the decision.) If we need something like it, we'll define it in Scoping ourselves.
  671. # [20:34] <Hixie> k. thanks.
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  682. # [20:55] <Hixie> uh
  683. # [20:55] <Hixie> can someone come up with a demo that shows firefox setting FocusEvent.relatedTarget to something other than 'null'?
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  685. # [20:58] <Ms2ger`> Hixie, initFocusEvent? :)
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  689. # [21:02] <Ms2ger`> But smaug____ can probably find a case
  690. # [21:05] <tobie> Is [Constructor((Foo or [EnsureUTF16] DOMString))] valid WebIDL. I think not from reading the spec. Can someone confirm? http://heycam.github.io/webidl/#EnsureUTF16
  691. # [21:07] <smaug____> Hixie: focusin/focusout events
  692. # [21:07] <Hixie> smaug____: wow, only for those? not focus/blur?
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  694. # [21:08] <smaug____> er
  695. # [21:08] <smaug____> hmm
  696. # [21:08] <smaug____> sorry
  697. # [21:08] <smaug____> Hixie: in FF focusin/out aren't implemented, and so aren't .relatedTarget setting
  698. # [21:09] * smaug____ looks at the code still
  699. # [21:10] <Hixie> i haven't specced focusin/focusout either
  700. # [21:10] <Ms2ger`> tobie, isn't, you forgot the argument name </unhelpful>
  701. # [21:10] <smaug____> well, some of it is in D3E
  702. # [21:11] <smaug____> Hixie: but yeah, FF doesn't set .relatedTarget to anything useful yet in case of focusevent
  703. # [21:11] <smaug____> known bug
  704. # [21:11] <tobie> Ms2ger`: might be helpful, actually. Let me check.
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  708. # [21:16] <tobie> Ms2ger`: so no, that's actually not the issue.
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  712. # [21:17] <tobie> So is the following WebIDL construct valid? [Constructor((Foo or [EnsureUTF16] DOMString) str)]
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  715. # [21:18] <Ms2ger`> I suspect not
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  717. # [21:19] <Domenic_> JakeA: for service worker caches, can you explain why there are so many overloads? Overloads always scare me.
  718. # [21:20] <JakeA> Domenic_: can only think of URLs vs requests off the top of my head
  719. # [21:20] <tobie> JakeA:
  720. # [21:21] <JakeA> But have been drinking so may be forgetting others
  721. # [21:21] <tobie> ^ sorry, silly irc client.
  722. # [21:21] <Hixie> smaug____: fascinating
  723. # [21:22] <JakeA> tobie: s'ok, made me feel popular
  724. # [21:22] * Hixie is trying to spec relatedTarget, but it's not clear what exactly it should point to
  725. # [21:22] <tobie> JakeA: having issues with an probably invalid WebIDL construct in SW
  726. # [21:22] <smaug____> Hixie: that part is something D3E tries to spec, to some extent
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  728. # [21:24] <tobie> JakeA: turns out it's in the cache Domenic_ was just mentioning: https://slightlyoff.github.io/ServiceWorker/spec/service_worker/index.html#cache
  729. # [21:24] <Hixie> smaug____: the extent of their speccing relatedTarget durin 'blur' is "event target receiving focus"
  730. # [21:24] <Hixie> smaug____: which is great except with iframe and dialog and so on there could be multiple elements in multiple browsing contexts :-)
  731. # [21:24] <Hixie> smaug____: so... not so helpful in practice
  732. # [21:25] <JakeA> tobie: hmm, will need to check to see if that's up to date, proposed a lot of change to that API recently
  733. # [21:25] <smaug____> yup, that is still unclear
  734. # [21:25] <smaug____> must not reveal nodes from other domains
  735. # [21:25] <tobie> JakeA: [EnsureUTF16] can be applied to an argument apparently not to a type.
  736. # [21:25] * smaug____ wonders if webkit or blink does that
  737. # [21:26] <tobie> JakeA: (if I read the WebIDL spec correctly, which frankly, would surprise me.)
  738. # [21:26] <smaug____> given that they don't have any security checks there based on the JS wrappers
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  740. # [21:29] <Hixie> smaug____: they seem to only reveal elements from the same document
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  742. # [21:30] <Hixie> e.g. the blur when you blur an element to focus one outside an iframe doesn't have a relatedTarget
  743. # [21:30] <Hixie> i wonder what to do with the one fired at non-elements
  744. # [21:31] <Hixie> make it Event, like in webkit? make it FocusEvent with no relatedTarget?
  745. # [21:31] <Hixie> as in, null
  746. # [21:31] <Hixie> what if you move focus from one dialog to another... there's two focus/blur pairs, one for the control in the first dialog and the control in the second dialog, and one for the dialogs
  747. # [21:31] <Hixie> should the relatedTarget of the controls be null? and the relatedTarget of the dialogs be the dialogs?
  748. # [21:32] <Hixie> what's the use case for relatedTarget?
  749. # [21:32] <Domenic_> JakeA: ah you're right it got better since I last looked. Still don't quite understand how such different objects can be used. Is it just a convenience for cache.whatever(req.url, ...)?
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  753. # [21:35] <smaug____> Hixie: use case is to know where the focus is moving from/to
  754. # [21:35] <smaug____> use case is fine
  755. # [21:36] <zewt> may be more useful to know from/to when you're eg. an event listener on document rather than the control itself, and you want to do an animation from the old thing to the new thing or something like that
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  762. # [21:42] <Hixie> smaug____: that's what it gives you, but i mean the use case. Like, why would you use that information.
  763. # [21:43] <JakeA> Domenic_: a url will be converted to a basic GET request. The defaults are defined by the Request constructor. Feedback on this API is very welcome though!
  764. # [21:43] <Hixie> zewt: hmm, animating from one to the other is an interesting idea
  765. # [21:43] <Hixie> zewt: though you could do that by just listening to focus events and tracking where you last went
  766. # [21:43] <zewt> contrived, not sure i've needed to use relatedTarget myself
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  768. # [21:43] <Hixie> in the case of a dialog you'd probably not want to animate away from one control to the other when changing dialogs
  769. # [21:44] <Hixie> you'd presumably want a per-dialog animation state
  770. # [21:44] <zewt> what if nothing is focused for a while, then the user focuses something, and you only want to animate for a transition, and not do the animation from something that was focused earlier
  771. # [21:44] <Hixie> so that argues for relatedTarget staying within its most local scope
  772. # [21:44] <Hixie> zewt: there's always _something_ focused
  773. # [21:44] <zewt> you'd need to add a timer to try to guess whether it was a direct transition or if there was some delay, which seems to be the main thing relatedTarget gives you
  774. # [21:44] <Domenic_> JakeA: hmm well I trust you guys have found it important to have a convenient way of doing that, i.e. the convenience of using url instead of `new Request({ url: ... })` outweighs the implicitness.
  775. # [21:45] <Domenic_> JakeA: but I like that there is such an equivalence, i.e. Requests are the "real" keys and URLs are just sugar; I was afraid that caches had two kinds of keys
  776. # [21:47] <zewt> Hixie: it seems like there's nothing focused if I click on text
  777. # [21:47] <Hixie> the browsing context is focused, at least
  778. # [21:48] <zewt> (the window has a focus message, but window focus/blur seems independent of element focus/blur)
  779. # [21:48] <zewt> (which is confusing)
  780. # [21:48] <Hixie> it's all the same algorithm per the spec these days
  781. # [21:48] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#focus-update-steps
  782. # [21:48] <zewt> it looks distinct from testing in chrome, at least
  783. # [21:48] <zewt> that is, i get focus/blur messages for window, and focus/blur messages for my <input type=text>, and i can get focus for both at the same time
  784. # [21:49] <Hixie> yeah, it's a hieararchy of focus
  785. # [21:49] <Hixie> hierarchy even
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  787. # [21:50] <zewt> i guess i can see that
  788. # [21:50] <zewt> that means that if you were trying to track focus yourself (to emulate relatedTarget), you'd need to maintain a stack, which would be brittle
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  790. # [21:51] <Hixie> maintaining it yourself would be a huge pain
  791. # [21:51] <Hixie> since it can cross iframe boundaries and so on
  792. # [21:52] <Hixie> ok i think the logical thing to do is to only set relatedTarget for the outermost thing that receives the focus/blur events, and then only set it if it's an Element
  793. # [21:52] <Hixie> outermost things
  794. # [21:52] <Hixie> the last entry in old chains and new chains
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  796. # [21:52] <Hixie> after step 1 has pruned the end of the lists
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  798. # [21:54] <zewt> weird, no focus event for the iframe itself if focus is inside the iframe (haven't needed that, it's just what i expected to happen)
  799. # [21:55] <Hixie> yeah teh iframe and its Document are kinda treated as one
  800. # [21:56] <zewt> i have a capturing listener on window, and if I focus an iframe inside it, the window just gets a blur
  801. # [21:56] <Hixie> hm actully...
  802. # [21:56] <zewt> i'd have thought i'd get a focus with a target of the iframe
  803. # [21:56] <Hixie> that may have been one of the things i'm trying to change with that new algorithm
  804. # [21:56] <zewt> like how mouseover works
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  806. # [21:57] <zewt> https://zewt.org/~glenn/foo1.html
  807. # [21:57] <zewt> fwiw
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  811. # [22:04] <SamB> Hixie: didn't you keep notes on that?
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  813. # [22:04] <Hixie> the spec is my notes :-)
  814. # [22:05] <Hixie> it's easy enough to figure out just by reading the spec, i just didn't read the spec in response to zewt's comment :-)
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  818. # [22:11] <marcosc> Hixie: with the <link rel=manifest> thing, I need to say that the user agent is not required to "obtain the resource" until needed, if ever (e.g., for the purpose of bookmarking). However, the link element has text about delaying the load event of a document until the resource being pointed to is obtained. Clearly, we don't want to delay the load event (as the manifest may never get loaded by the UA). I'm wondering, do we need in HTML a special exte
  819. # [22:11] <marcosc> rnal link that is low priority (may never be loaded) and that doesn't block the document load event from firing? The same could apply to <link rel=icon> - as those resources may never be loaded by the browser until needed.
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  821. # [22:14] <Hixie> marcosc: the spec doesn't say that it delays the load event until the resource is obtained
  822. # [22:15] <Hixie> marcosc: it says it delays the load event "until all the attempts to obtain the resource and its critical subresources are complete"
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  824. # [22:15] <Hixie> marcosc: if you don't begin an attempt, the load event isn't delayed
  825. # [22:15] <marcosc> ah
  826. # [22:15] <Hixie> indeed the very same paragraph explicitly says:
  827. # [22:15] <Hixie> "Resources that the user agent has not yet attempted to obtain, e.g. because it is waiting for the resource to be needed, do not delay the load event."
  828. # [22:15] <Hixie> it's literally the next sentence
  829. # [22:16] <marcosc> Sorry, got stuck on that sentence
  830. # [22:16] <Hixie> see http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#link-type-stylesheet for wording for how to trigger that stuff
  831. # [22:16] <marcosc> ok, awesome, then I think we are good.
  832. # [22:17] <Hixie> interestingly, rel=icon doesn't ever say to obtain anything, heh
  833. # [22:17] <marcosc> yeah
  834. # [22:17] <marcosc> I noticed that
  835. # [22:17] <marcosc> :)
  836. # [22:18] <marcosc> manifest and icon are pretty much the same
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  839. # [22:39] <arunranga> hi abarth, we’re trying to nail down the origin of blob: URLs and data: URLs (that’s https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24998 but specifically http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014JanMar/0682.html).
  840. # [22:39] <abarth> hi
  841. # [22:39] <abarth> ok
  842. # [22:40] <abarth> have you nailed down the syntax of blob URLs?
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  844. # [22:40] <arunranga> Yes, the syntax of a blob: URL is probably nailed down.
  845. # [22:40] <arunranga> Currently we’ve pegged the origin of the blob: URL to the origin of the incumbent settings object
  846. # [22:41] <arunranga> But we can’t gather that *from* the blob: URL alone.
  847. # [22:42] <arunranga> If you’ve got opinions on how we should fix this, and whether we should do the same thing for data: URLs as for blob: URLs, either of those two (email or bug) would be good places to weigh in :-)
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  852. # [22:50] <abarth> what does a blob URL look like?
  853. # [22:50] <abarth> can you give me an example of one?
  854. # [22:51] <abarth> I ask because last time I studied this problem, different browsers used different syntax for blob URLs
  855. # [22:51] <abarth> which made the more complex problems intractable
  856. # [22:51] <zewt> well, you inherently can't get the origin of a blob url if it's revoked
  857. # [22:52] <zewt> abarth: though, since blob URLs have no meaning and there should never be any blob URLs stored anywhere, it might be possible to change that (even though the feature is already out there)
  858. # [22:52] <zewt> (not that that's necessarily the right thing to do)
  859. # [22:53] <abarth> zewt: those statements depend on the syntax of blob URLs
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  861. # [22:53] <zewt> there is no syntax, right? it's just blob: + undefined data (that usually looks random)
  862. # [22:54] <SamB> abarth: there is none! what you see is an ill-uu-u-u-sion
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  864. # [22:54] <zewt> since the data has no meaning to scripts, you could change that to "blob: + origin + arbitrary data" (or blob: + sha1(origin) + data" or something) without breakage
  865. # [22:55] <abarth> zewt: right, it's the "undefined data" part that's problematic
  866. # [22:55] <arunranga> well, there is a syntax in that we do blob: + schemeid with schemeid typically being a UUID
  867. # [22:55] <SamB> who does that?
  868. # [22:55] <abarth> i'm happy to discuss a security model for blobs once folks agree on a syntax for blob URLs
  869. # [22:55] <abarth> that doesn't involve leaving platform-visible strings as implementation-defined
  870. # [22:56] <zewt> arunranga: individual implementations might have some pattern (like always looking like a UUID), but hopefully nobody's embedding info the web might be depending on
  871. # [22:56] <abarth> zewt: that hope seems wildly optimistic to me
  872. # [22:56] <zewt> abarth: maybe, but I'm not sure I can contrive a way people might be depending on that
  873. # [22:56] <arunranga> (Chrome annotates the blob: URL sometimes so that it looks like this — blob:http://google.com[uuid]
  874. # [22:56] <arunranga> )
  875. # [22:56] <zewt> yuck
  876. # [22:56] <tobie> slightlyoff: which file am I supposed to edit to modify the WebIDL in SW?
  877. # [22:56] <arunranga> Not sometimes/ all the time
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  879. # [22:57] <arunranga> I don’t like it :(
  880. # [22:57] <SamB> indeed yuck
  881. # [22:57] <abarth> hence the ability to get the origin of a revoked blob URL
  882. # [22:57] <arunranga> And I wish they didn't
  883. # [22:57] <tobie> slightlyoff: and in which branch?
  884. # [22:57] <abarth> wishing and ponies
  885. # [22:57] <arunranga> Fx doesn’t do it
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  887. # [22:57] <SamB> that's a terrible syntax
  888. # [22:57] <zewt> that's not necessarily a bad way to do it, but it's bad to put data inside blob URLs that people might look at and go "hey, I can parse info out of that", if only one vendor is doing it
  889. # [22:57] <SamB> you should standardize a different syntax just to spite them
  890. # [22:57] <abarth> zewt: this has all been discussed before
  891. # [22:57] <SamB> one with a : in it
  892. # [22:57] <SamB> after the origin
  893. # [22:57] <abarth> and each vendor appears entrenched in their position
  894. # [22:57] <zewt> abarth: that's nice :)
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  896. # [22:58] <arunranga> abarth, zewt: what if this was what it looked like: http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/FileAPI/#DefinitionOfScheme
  897. # [22:58] <arunranga> If we agreed on that (big if) could you suggest an origin ?
  898. # [22:58] <abarth> there is no such thing as an opaque string
  899. # [22:58] <abarth> strings in JavaScript are not opaque
  900. # [22:58] <abarth> they're sequences of characters
  901. # [22:58] <abarth> hence the lie
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  903. # [22:59] <arunranga> abarth, the idea was unguessable.
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  905. # [22:59] <abarth> the participants in the working group did not agree on a syntax
  906. # [22:59] <abarth> which is why the spec is vague
  907. # [22:59] <abarth> and why this area of the platform is a mess
  908. # [23:00] <arunranga> abarth, agreed
  909. # [23:00] <Ms2ger`> Yay, consensus
  910. # [23:00] <SamB> I assume "opaque" means something like "the meaning is not in the characters"
  911. # [23:00] <abarth> SamB: that's not what it means
  912. # [23:00] <zewt> "opaque" should mean at least "there's nothing users can try to parse out of this"
  913. # [23:00] <abarth> anyway, as I wrote above, I'm happy to talk with you about a security model after you get folks to agree on a syntax for the URLs
  914. # [23:00] <arunranga> abarth, on syntax: is UUID a bad idea ?
  915. # [23:00] <zewt> which blob:http://google.com fails at
  916. # [23:00] <abarth> arunranga: I'm not the person you need to convince about the syntax
  917. # [23:01] <abarth> I don't care at all beyond that it needs to be interoperable
  918. # [23:01] <zewt> that said, i'm not sure why the origin would be in the URL
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  920. # [23:01] <abarth> the current situation isn't remotely interoperable
  921. # [23:01] <arunranga> abarth, the history of this is that Darin didn’t want a restriction to UUID
  922. # [23:01] <abarth> darin -> fishd ?
  923. # [23:01] <zewt> you have a live registry somewhere of blob URLs -> blobs; store it in there (means you can't get the origin after the blob URL is revoked, but that shouldn't matter)
  924. # [23:01] <arunranga> abarth, yep :( But Hixie’s formulation effectively made it UUID
  925. # [23:01] <abarth> yes, the history is that people did not agree on a syntax
  926. # [23:01] <abarth> that does not match reality
  927. # [23:02] <arunranga> abarth, OK. I’ll file bugs to not make claims that are misleading like “opaque” but if we insisted on UUID, so that it was something like blob:UUID, would we be better off?
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  929. # [23:04] <zewt> arunranga: won't help unless chrome people can be convinced to get the origin out of the URLs
  930. # [23:05] <arunranga> I think we should roll up the sleeves and try and sort this out. It’s hard, but that’s why I’m pestering abarth
  931. # [23:05] <SamB> hmm, won't that make debugging harder?
  932. # [23:05] <arunranga> :-)
  933. # [23:05] <zewt> i don't think it's necessarily bad to put the origin in there like that, it's just bad that one vendor decided to do that
  934. # [23:06] <abarth> zewt: I don't think you're going to get very far in this discussion if you use biased language like that
  935. # [23:07] <zewt> sounds like this whole discussion upsets you, but that's not my fault :)
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  939. # [23:08] <arunranga> abarth, actually the thinking was that since the blob: URL is never *seen* and only passed around, what it actually looked like wasn’t important.
  940. # [23:08] <arunranga> abarth, I tended to agree with that thinking, but it’s clear that if we want to evolve an origin concept for blob:, we need more syntax clarity
  941. # [23:09] <zewt> arunranga: only if the origin comes by parsing the URL, but since blob URLs have a live registry, is that really the case?
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  943. # [23:09] <arunranga> abarth, the question is: is there a really good implementation reason for “tagging” the blob:UUID model with more info, such as some implementations do? If not, we could stick to something like blob:UUID.
  944. # [23:09] <arunranga> But this is probably not a convo solved in IRC alone, so I’ll take it to the lists!
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  953. # [23:22] <sicking> arunranga, abarth: I think syntax for blob: depends on what we decide about origins for blob:
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  956. # [23:23] <sicking> if blob: URIs have an implicit origin, like http: does, and unlike data:, then I think it might be valuable to stick that origin inside the URI
  957. # [23:23] <sicking> but if blob: act more like data:, then obviously that does not make sense
  958. # [23:24] <sicking> so I think our first step here is to figure out a good story for data:
  959. # [23:24] <sicking> since without that I don't think we can answer the question of "should blob: act like data:"
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  962. # [23:27] <slightlyoff> Tobie: spec/service_worker/index.html in master
  963. # [23:28] <tobie> slightlyoff: with all the crazy inline urls and such?
  964. # [23:28] <tobie> slightlyoff: I'd want to edit some of the WebIDL
  965. # [23:28] <abarth> (sorry, had to run off---back now)
  966. # [23:29] <tobie> slightlyoff: and it seems like it's generated from something.
  967. # [23:29] <slightlyoff> Going to fix via the framework shortly
  968. # [23:29] <slightlyoff> Hand rolled
  969. # [23:29] <abarth> arunranga: blob URLs are exposed to web sites, which mean we can't have them be implementation-defined
  970. # [23:29] <tobie> oh, my,
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  972. # [23:29] <tobie> What about using a tool that already works?
  973. # [23:29] * tobie hides
  974. # [23:30] <abarth> sicking: in chrome, a blob URI is bound to an origin
  975. # [23:30] <sicking> abarth: in gecko too
  976. # [23:30] <Ms2ger`> tobie, nah, not cool
  977. # [23:30] <abarth> the difference is just that chrome writes that origin in the syntax of the blob URI
  978. # [23:31] <sicking> abarth: we just don't stick that origin in the actual URI. It's just kept in an internal hash
  979. # [23:31] <tobie> Ms2ger`: the hiding part?
  980. # [23:31] <sicking> right
  981. # [23:31] <tobie> :P
  982. # [23:31] <marcosc> seriously, slightlyoff, just use Respec or Anolis. You will spend just as long rolling out your own spec generation thing as you will on the spec.
  983. # [23:31] <abarth> I never understood why it's problematic to write that origin in the URI
  984. # [23:31] <marcosc> slightlyoff: It also makes it easier for people to contribute/review the spec.
  985. # [23:31] <Hixie> all the coolest spec editors roll their own infrastructure
  986. # [23:31] <sicking> abarth: i'm happy to go with the chrome approach if we do decide that blob:s should have a bound origin (which I think it should)
  987. # [23:32] <Ms2ger`> tobie, existing tools
  988. # [23:32] <sicking> abarth: i'm slightly uncomfortable with the "nested URI" aspect of it. But that is probably solvable
  989. # [23:32] <arunranga> abarth, sicking: here’s a real world example. This is exactly what Chrome does (I coined it in the dev console) blob:http%3A//aaww.org/9efd7ba9-b707-4262-ab0d-6a395be173f1
  990. # [23:32] <abarth> yeah, I wanted to base64 encode it or something
  991. # [23:32] <abarth> but there was some reason why someone didn't want to do that
  992. # [23:33] <abarth> if you don't put the origin in the syntax
  993. # [23:33] <arunranga> sicking, are you uncomf because of information leak?
  994. # [23:33] <abarth> you have to decide what happens when someone outside your origin tries to use the URI
  995. # [23:33] <sicking> arunranga: no, just implementation issues
  996. # [23:33] <abarth> if its in the syntax, you can just reject it syntatically
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  998. # [23:35] <tobie> slightlyoff: so is editing those by hand worthwhile at present?
  999. # [23:35] <marcosc> Hixie: don't encourage him
  1000. # [23:35] <arunranga> (of course, Fx follows the spec exactly — here’s a blob: URL minted in Fx’s console): blob:2b87eebc-d9ef-954f-a61f-7263e17fba4d)
  1001. # [23:35] <Hixie> imho editors should work with whatever infrastructure they are most comfortable with
  1002. # [23:35] <Hixie> if that means rolling your own, then why not?
  1003. # [23:36] <Hixie> i mean, there's a reason so many of us have done this
  1004. # [23:36] <arunranga> Hixie, crap. I always knew I wasn’t cool. I just used rberjon’s infrastructure
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  1006. # [23:36] <Hixie> arunranga: if that's what makes you the most productive, seems good to me
  1007. # [23:36] <sicking> abarth: anyhow, I think the first step here is to figure out security model for data:. I think what we discssued last time has a lot of potential. We should let Anne know about it
  1008. # [23:36] * Quits: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  1009. # [23:36] <Hixie> i used to use bert's
  1010. # [23:37] <Hixie> now i use gsnedders'
  1011. # [23:37] <Hixie> soonish i'll use mine :-)
  1012. # [23:37] <sicking> abarth: once we've figured out data:, we can figure out if we want to reuse that for blob: (I think we won't want to)
  1013. # [23:37] <arunranga> sicking, abarth: why not just formalize what Chrome is doing, since we think there’s merit in origin extraction from the URL syntax?
  1014. # [23:38] <sicking> arunranga: if you can convince anne that that's the right thing to do, then i'm all for it
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  1016. # [23:38] <abarth> sicking: if you want to wait for data to be sorted out, you're going to have to wait a long time :(
  1017. # [23:39] <tobie> Hixie: it's a common tradeoff: either favor external contributions or personal speed.
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  1019. # [23:39] <abarth> sicking: it's just a lot of engineering to change Blink to support a different security model for data
  1020. # [23:39] <arunranga> sicking, abarth, convincing annevk takes a long time sometimes too
  1021. # [23:39] <abarth> arunranga: or maybe just a few beers :)
  1022. # [23:40] * arunranga knew the pros had a trick up their sleeves
  1023. # [23:41] <sicking> abarth: If you don't think we'll settle data: for a long time, that's enough of an argument for me that we shouldn't use the same thing for blob:
  1024. # [23:41] <sicking> arunranga: so I think that means that we should spec the Chrome behavior
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  1026. # [23:42] <abarth> I believe the chrome behavior is as follows:
  1027. # [23:42] <sicking> though people should feel free to fight things out about the syntax (%3A vs. : vs. whatever)
  1028. # [23:42] <Hixie> tobie: imho editors should never accept contributions in the form of patches, they should make sure they've written all the text themselves so that they're intimately familiar with it. so i don't think it's that much of a trade-off.
  1029. # [23:42] <Hixie> tobie: the infrastructure doesn't affect contribution speed in the form of bug reports.
  1030. # [23:42] <abarth> 1) you're only allowed to kick off requests for blob URIs that syntatically have the origin of the incumbent script
  1031. # [23:43] <abarth> 2) when loading a blob URI in a browsing context, the origin of the new document is the origin that's syntatically embedded in the URI
  1032. # [23:43] <sicking> abarth: does 1) apply even in sitatuions where you normally can do cross-origin loads? Like for <img>?
  1033. # [23:43] <abarth> yes
  1034. # [23:43] <sicking> cool
  1035. # [23:43] <sicking> sounds good to me
  1036. # [23:43] <sicking> ship it!
  1037. # [23:44] <sicking> this is same as what gecko does, just different syntax
  1038. # [23:44] <sicking> but i like chrome's syntax more
  1039. # [23:44] <abarth> the syntax is important in our implementation because the decision can all be made locally
  1040. # [23:44] <abarth> without race conditions or global synchronization
  1041. # [23:45] <sicking> right
  1042. # [23:45] <sicking> which is why I like it :)
  1043. # [23:45] * Quits: llkats (~llkats@h-64-236-138-2.aoltw.net)
  1044. # [23:45] <arunranga> abarth, 1) matches the spec today absent syntax but 2) seems a bit laxer
  1045. # [23:45] <tobie> agreed if that's your modus operandi. I drank the forking kool-aid, so patches just seem like a much more natural (and polite) way of interacting.
  1046. # [23:46] <arunranga> Uhh, no. I take that back.
  1047. # [23:46] <arunranga> The only thing is syntax
  1048. # [23:47] <sicking> abarth: out of curiosity, is there a reason that for filesystem: you do filesystem:http://example.com/whatnot, but for blob: you do blob:http%3Aexample.com/whatnot?
  1049. # [23:47] * arunranga ^^ good question
  1050. # [23:47] <sicking> abarth: not ':' vs '%3A' after the http
  1051. # [23:47] <sicking> note*
  1052. # [23:48] <abarth> dunno, that seems a bit crazy
  1053. # [23:48] <Hixie> tobie: right. like i said, editors should use whatever they prefer. If they want something that enables them to take patches easily, then obviously they should bear that in mind in their infrastructure selection.
  1054. # [23:49] <abarth> sicking: I suspect we could change the blob one to match filesystem
  1055. # [23:49] <sicking> abarth: I *think* there might be URL-parser-sanity reasons to pick one over the other. I don't know which is preferable though
  1056. # [23:49] <sicking> i guess you guys would have a harder time changing filesystem:?
  1057. # [23:49] <sicking> :(
  1058. # [23:51] <abarth> I bet there's content that does "filesystem:" + location.origin + "/path/to/my/file"
  1059. # [23:51] <sicking> yeah
  1060. # [23:52] <abarth> it matches what gecko does for jar
  1061. # [23:52] <sicking> you'll have to add + "temporary/" in there though
  1062. # [23:52] <sicking> yeah, though jar handling has been a source of a lot of complexity
  1063. # [23:52] * Joins: Rastus_Vernon (uid15187@wikimedia/Rastus-Vernon)
  1064. # [23:52] <sicking> i'd like to avoid having that get onto the web
  1065. # [23:53] * Joins: satazor (~satazor@80.78.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt)
  1066. # [23:53] <SamB> jar handling is a good example of, um, something that has had to be rethought because of, um, unforeseen implications?
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  1072. # Session Close: Fri May 09 00:00:01 2014

The end :)