/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-05-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu May 15 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  22. # [00:48] <aretecode> In CSS, what is the term for the definition "The group of all Rule Set(s)" ?
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  29. # [00:55] <estellevw> block?
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  33. # [00:57] <caitp> in the CSSOM or something else?
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  41. # [01:12] <aretecode> Yes, caitp
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  43. # [01:12] <aretecode> estellevw, like `Rule Set Block` ?
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  49. # [01:28] <zewt> grr, firefox has been chewing a whole CPU and spinning my fans up nonstop since that last update
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  51. # [01:34] <jgraham> zewt: If you can isolate the problem at all, report a bug
  52. # [01:34] <jgraham> It is working fine for me at least
  53. # [01:34] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
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  55. # [01:38] <zewt> it's probably some tab causing it, and binary searching my dozens of tabs would be tedious
  56. # [01:39] <zewt> (same tab set as before the update where it didn't happen, though)
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  94. # [03:06] <coolbot95> <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width,initial-scale=1,user-scalable=no" /> <-- What is this? What exactly does it do, and why?
  95. # [03:07] <boogyman> coolbot95:@link https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Mobile/Viewport_meta_tag
  96. # [03:08] * coolbot95 refuses to support cellphones.
  97. # [03:09] <boogyman> its not just for palm devices
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  102. # [03:23] <coolbot95> Then what?
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  213. # [09:10] <mathiasbynens> people don’t seem to know about `window.URL` ☹ http://devblog.arnebrasseur.net/2014-05-HTML-and-URIs-in-Javascript#comment-1386556461
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  221. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> mathiasbynens: hmm yeah
  222. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> mathiasbynens: I guess they don't know about https://github.com/annevk/url/ either
  223. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> and https://github.com/Polymer/url
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  254. # [12:27] <tobie> Lazy question: can fetch be polyfilled in terms of xhr?
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  261. # [12:54] <zcorpan> tobie: what do you mean by "fetch"?
  262. # [12:55] <jgraham> zcorpan: Presumably annevk's new API to replace XHR but add more promises
  263. # [12:59] * jgraham isn't sure if/where that is actually specified. The Request and Response objects seem to have IDL but no spec in Service Worker
  264. # [12:59] <jgraham> but I don't see an interface for using them outside a Service Worker context
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  266. # [13:10] <tobie> right
  267. # [13:10] <tobie> zcorpan: https://slightlyoff.github.io/ServiceWorker/spec/service_worker/index.html#service-worker-global-scope-fetch
  268. # [13:11] <tobie> my understanding it the fetch algo is defined in the fetch spec along with the Response and Request objects, while the fetch api is defined in SW.
  269. # [13:12] <tobie> I would argue that the fetch api should be available outside of the SW context (I suppose that is the plan).
  270. # [13:13] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  271. # [13:18] <darobin> tobie: last I hear that was still being discussed
  272. # [13:18] <darobin> that said I see no a priori reason why it wouldn't be possible to implement a nicer, promisy API atop XHR
  273. # [13:19] <zcorpan> tobie: as far as i can tell that spec has some abilities that xhr does not. for instance setting arbitrary request headers
  274. # [13:19] <jgraham> Having two different apis for getting resources seems quite bad. Having each avaliable only in a certain context seems like a disaster
  275. # [13:20] <tobie> jgraham: ++
  276. # [13:21] <darobin> jgraham: that's pretty much what the discussion was, yes
  277. # [13:23] <tobie> zcorpan: not sure, see: "The forbidden author header names" in http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#requests
  278. # [13:24] <jgraham> darobin: That doesn't seem like a discussion? I mean the only point that you can debate is "is XHR so bad that we need a new API to do basically the same thing". Once you decide that you are going ahead with the new API, there aren't any sensible choices left apart from "make the new API avaliable everywhere"
  279. # [13:25] <zcorpan> tobie: where does fetch() filter them out?
  280. # [13:25] <zcorpan> tobie: xhr does here http://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-xmlhttprequest-setrequestheader step 5
  281. # [13:26] <tobie> zcorpan: "Fetch end points must enforce restrictions on a request's method and author headers." I suppose.
  282. # [13:26] <zcorpan> tobie: not sure if that's a requirement on UAs or on other specs...
  283. # [13:27] <jgraham> That's a pretty bizarre requirement
  284. # [13:27] <jgraham> It sounds like a requirement on servers, but it doesn't make sense
  285. # [13:27] <darobin> jgraham: that was pretty much it — it wasn't discussed for long. There was also the question about phasing out XHR, which is naturally impossible over the sort of time scales we'd normally think about.
  286. # [13:27] <tobie> well fetch spec only describes fetch algo
  287. # [13:28] <jgraham> zcorpan: I think it's pretty clear that the API spec for fetch is basically missing
  288. # [13:28] <tobie> darobin: actually, pretty much no one uses xhr directly, so might be easier than expected.
  289. # [13:28] <darobin> tobie: I thought of that, but still
  290. # [13:28] <tobie> jgraham: yes, API is defined in SW spec for now.
  291. # [13:28] <darobin> "pretty much no one" of something that's used this much is a lot of people
  292. # [13:28] <darobin> and that's not counting the millions of copies of libs that use it and aren't evergreen at all
  293. # [13:28] <jgraham> tobie: Yeah, but the point is that it isn't
  294. # [13:29] <darobin> it doesn't help you that it's used through jQuery for all the jquery.min.js littered all over the place
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  296. # [13:29] <tobie> good point
  297. # [13:29] <tobie> (hadn't thought about that)
  298. # [13:29] <darobin> now if we could have evergreen libs, that would rock
  299. # [13:29] <zcorpan> what's in the SW spec now is "open up a giant security hole here" :-P
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  301. # [13:30] <tobie> I don't understand why.
  302. # [13:30] <tobie> (honest question)
  303. # [13:30] <jgraham> zcorpan: Given the state of the rest of the spec, it's pretty clearly unfinished.
  304. # [13:31] <jgraham> But it does seem like opening an issue for this might be a good idea
  305. # [13:32] <tobie> zcorpan: I don't understand why this opens up a security issue. SW spec says implement fetch algo. Fetch algo says enforce restrictions on a request's method and author headers
  306. # [13:32] <zcorpan> tobie: it invokes the "fetch" algorithm without doing any security-sensitive restrictions that are in place in XHR (such as limiting request headers)
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  308. # [13:33] <zcorpan> tobie: i don't understand what the "enforse restrictions" requirement means
  309. # [13:34] <tobie> oh. I read it as: dissaloow forbidden author header names
  310. # [13:34] <tobie> *disallow
  311. # [13:34] <jgraham> tobie: The hint that it doesn't make sense is that "enforce restrictions [...]" isn't a link to a definition
  312. # [13:35] <tobie> sure.
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  314. # [13:35] <tobie> So, then yeah, that's probably worth filing
  315. # [13:36] <tobie> "fetching end point" would also need to be defined, no?
  316. # [13:36] <tobie> or is end point common terminology in spec-land?
  317. # [13:37] <zcorpan> yeah it's not clear to me what "fetching end point" means
  318. # [13:41] <tobie> annevk: following our conversation yesterday, I jotted some examples down for ResponsePromise vs. Promise: https://gist.github.com/tobie/54fbe04b97d0a0b0b621
  319. # [13:41] <zcorpan> tobie: i read it as saying that specs that invoke "fetch" need to be careful not to introduce new security holes, and the fetch() api violates it completely
  320. # [13:41] <jgraham> In any case I think "end point" is very confusing
  321. # [13:41] <tobie> zcorpan: I see. That's not my reading of it. Good sign this needs clarification.
  322. # [13:42] <jgraham> In HTTP APIs, an end point is usually the server
  323. # [13:42] <tobie> jgraham: precisely.
  324. # [13:43] <tobie> jgraham: I think it means "WebIDL api that implements the algo," though
  325. # [13:43] <zcorpan> "These are forbidden so the user agent remains in full control over them. Names starting with `Sec-` are not allowed to be set to allow new headers to be minted that are guaranteed not to come from fetching end points that allow control over headers by authors, such as XMLHttpRequest. [XHR]"
  326. # [13:43] <zcorpan> http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-forbidden-author-header-names
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  328. # [13:43] <zcorpan> seems anne meant XHR to be a "fetching end point"
  329. # [13:44] <tobie> my understanding too. (See above comment)
  330. # [13:44] <jgraham> Yeah, that's just broken terminology
  331. # [13:45] <jgraham> Even with that interpretation, I think it's trying to impose a MUST level requirement on the consumer of the fetch spec i.e. the service worker spec, that the service worker spec doesn't meet
  332. # [13:45] <jgraham> So there are bugs in multiple places
  333. # [13:46] <tobie> annevk: I find error handling hard to reason about in both cases. That said, I do tend to thing that your ResponsePromise with direct access to a stream seems to lead to more usable API overall.
  334. # [13:47] <zcorpan> http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/66950616884/hober-tells-it-like-it-is-and-isnt-scared-to-be
  335. # [13:47] <tobie> annevk: …but I think you might want to generalize the concept beyond ResponsePromise (and call it StreamPromise or some such)
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  342. # [14:03] <annevk> tobie: there should be some way to rewrite the regular promise one with new syntactic sugar that makes it more appealing though
  343. # [14:03] <annevk> tobie: the fetch().get("body") stuff we discussed
  344. # [14:03] <annevk> tobie: as for errors, there's a ton of potential errors
  345. # [14:05] <annevk> MikeSmith: W3C Bugzilla is slow :/
  346. # [14:06] <caitp> you can only expect so much from 321mb of perl
  347. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> annevk: will check once I'm back home
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  352. # [14:18] <tobie> annevk: right. now I remember that part. Glad I jotted these examples down or I would just have forgotten everything about the pro getter thing.
  353. # [14:18] <tobie> With regards to errors, my question was more about where those errors would end up being reported.
  354. # [14:19] <tobie> On the stream / the promise / both / depends
  355. # [14:19] <annevk> if there's an error with the promise the stream will error, so both
  356. # [14:20] <annevk> they end up in the console, where uncaught exceptions go to die
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  358. # [14:28] <tobie> OK, my examples have lots of issues. Fixing them right now and adding the get() examples.
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  371. # [14:54] <tobie> annevk:
  372. # [14:54] <tobie> Updated the example: https://gist.github.com/tobie/54fbe04b97d0a0b0b621
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  374. # [14:54] <tobie> I don't think the Promise.prototype.get buys us much.
  375. # [14:55] <annevk> tobie: I think you want both .get and async invoke
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  377. # [14:56] <annevk> Domenic might be able to help
  378. # [14:56] <annevk> .get("body").call("pipe", new CSVParser())
  379. # [14:57] <annevk> note that there is a bit of a difference between the three examples when CSVParser is invoked
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  381. # [14:57] <annevk> Hmm, not sure that .call would actually work
  382. # [14:57] <annevk> No it wouldn't
  383. # [14:57] <tobie> invoke would, though
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  385. # [14:58] <tobie> .get("body").invoke("pipe", new CSVParser())
  386. # [14:58] <tobie> annevk: what's the difference between the three examples?
  387. # [14:59] <annevk> tobie: timing
  388. # [15:01] <tobie> I don't see how that's possible unless ES6 promises were able to resolve before the next turn of the event loop
  389. # [15:02] <tobie> (but I often don't see how something is possible because I don't look at it properly :/)
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  391. # [15:03] <caitp> i think you always want them to resolve on the next turn, otherwise you risk a nice big stack overflow
  392. # [15:03] <caitp> and you don't want that
  393. # [15:04] <tobie> caitp: among other issues. :)
  394. # [15:05] <tobie> biab
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  404. # [15:34] <zcorpan> annevk: how well have you tested starting fetches while a fetch is in flight (for the same url)? is that covered in the fetch spec?
  405. # [15:34] <annevk> zcorpan: no, that could be covered a whole lot better
  406. # [15:35] <annevk> zcorpan: it's actually a problematic scenario for service workers
  407. # [15:35] <annevk> zcorpan: you probably want to do most of Fetch in the same way, and only do this when you hit the network
  408. # [15:36] <zcorpan> annevk: ok. i'm testing it now for <img> trying to figure out how that should work, but i'm not sure how much i should leave to the fetch spec and how much i should deal with myself
  409. # [15:36] <annevk> tobie: it's just that CSVParser() is invoked a bit earlier in the ResponsePromise scenario
  410. # [15:37] <annevk> zcorpan: <img> has some special handling
  411. # [15:37] <annevk> zcorpan: are you aware of the bug asking for image fetching to be made generic?
  412. # [15:37] <zcorpan> annevk: yeah i saw it
  413. # [15:37] <annevk> zcorpan: the document image cache or whatever it's called these days is something that's not for Fetch though
  414. # [15:38] <zcorpan> annevk: ok
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  420. # [15:53] <Domenic> tobie: annevk: I'm missing some context. But I am skeptical of ResponsePromise.
  421. # [15:54] <annevk> Domenic: now would be a great time to come up with alternatives
  422. # [15:55] <Domenic> annevk: what does ResponsePromise even solve
  423. # [15:55] <annevk> Domenic: BlinkOn wants to ship in stable per end of August or so
  424. # [15:55] <annevk> Domenic: the ability to get to a stream without callbacks
  425. # [15:55] <annevk> Domenic: fetch(x).body
  426. # [15:55] <Domenic> annevk: why not fetch(x => x.body)
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  428. # [15:56] <Domenic> a promise for a response is much more coherent than a response that is a promise
  429. # [15:56] <annevk> Domenic: you mean fetch(x).then(r => r.body) ?
  430. # [15:56] <Domenic> annevk: yes, sorry, need coffee -_-
  431. # [15:57] <annevk> Domenic: because it's not as nice
  432. # [15:57] <Domenic> O_O
  433. # [15:57] <annevk> with fetch(x).body you can then pipe that into something else much more easily
  434. # [15:57] <Domenic> so if fetch(x).body is the body, what does fetch(x).then(r => what is r) ?
  435. # [15:57] <Domenic> fetching a response is inherent async
  436. # [15:57] <Domenic> you shouldn't be able to pipe it anywhere until you actually have the response
  437. # [15:58] <annevk> r would be a Response object instance
  438. # [15:58] <Domenic> so .body is literally a getter for this.then(r => r.body)
  439. # [15:58] <annevk> Domenic: it gives a Stream that starts streaming once the promise resolves
  440. # [15:59] <Domenic> annevk: you can't have a response stream until the request completes
  441. # [15:59] <Domenic> the stream you're getting is no longer a coherent conceptual object
  442. # [15:59] <Domenic> it is some combination of ArtificiallyPausedStream + ResponseStream
  443. # [15:59] <Domenic> but ArtificiallyPausedStream has the exact semantics of a promise
  444. # [15:59] <annevk> I find that hard to follow
  445. # [15:59] <Domenic> so just use promises for that
  446. # [16:00] <annevk> I guess it might be okay
  447. # [16:00] <Domenic> also: the real comparison is between (await fetch(x)).body and fetch(x).body
  448. # [16:00] <annevk> (I'm not really married to the design, just trying to see if I can defend it)
  449. # [16:00] <Domenic> it is weird to get a response before the request completes
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  451. # [16:00] <Domenic> (for some definition of "completes", that probably means something more like "connection established")
  452. # [16:01] <annevk> request complete is basically defined as getting a response a back that is not a redirect
  453. # [16:01] <Domenic> yeah
  454. # [16:01] <annevk> as you can't observe redirects
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  456. # [16:01] <Domenic> i feel like there is an HTTP term for this I should know
  457. # [16:02] <annevk> nah it's Fetch
  458. # [16:02] <Domenic> it is not a horrible design i guess
  459. # [16:02] <annevk> it's a browser variety of HTTP
  460. # [16:02] <Domenic> it has straightforward desugaring into something understandable
  461. # [16:02] <Domenic> heh, that's fair
  462. # [16:02] <annevk> it's a little ugly, but most things are
  463. # [16:03] <Domenic> but i think it conceptually muddies the waters for very little convenience gain
  464. # [16:03] <Domenic> i think it's nicer to be able to tell a straightforward story about what's involved
  465. # [16:03] <annevk> it's mostly that we cannot change it
  466. # [16:03] <annevk> redirects have to be atomic
  467. # [16:03] <Domenic> i went back to talking about RequestPromise lol
  468. # [16:03] <annevk> oooh
  469. # [16:03] <annevk> I'm fine with just a promise
  470. # [16:04] <annevk> the whole promise subclassing I'm not exactly sold on
  471. # [16:04] <Domenic> yeah I mean I think it should be for generic things like CancellablePromise
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  473. # [16:04] <Domenic> or LazyPromise
  474. # [16:04] <Domenic> things that add fundamentally new, but broadly-reusable, capabilities.
  475. # [16:05] <Domenic> (fun fact: nobody knows whether it should be CancellablePromise or CancelablePromise)
  476. # [16:08] <annevk> caitp: it might be a while before I define the Content-Length stuff
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  478. # [16:08] <annevk> caitp: feel free to point to tests or browser results in the bug meanwhile though
  479. # [16:09] <annevk> Domenic: it's event.cancelable
  480. # [16:09] <Domenic> Ah, that helps. If any CancelablePromise work takes place in TC39 let's not forget that.
  481. # [16:09] <caitp> it seems like browsers have already decided what they want to do, and gecko has already decided not to do it, so it seems like a weird thing to explicitly specify, since it doesn't matter
  482. # [16:10] <caitp> but alright
  483. # [16:10] <Domenic> EVERYTHING MUST BE SPECIFIED
  484. # [16:11] <Domenic> (see also: thread surrounding https://twitter.com/sgalineau/status/466720865346797568 )
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  487. # [16:25] <annevk> TabAtkins: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors/#scope-contained- is that trailing hyphen intentional?
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  519. # [17:43] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  538. # [18:00] <annevk> jgraham: zcorpan: if something is unclear, you could file a bug
  539. # [18:03] <jgraham> Indeed. Want to add a bug report box? :)
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  542. # [18:08] <annevk> jgraham: if you select the text you can file a bug about it, seems easy enough
  543. # [18:12] <jgraham> Uh, yeah if you like mystery meat UIs I guess.
  544. # [18:12] <jgraham> I had no idea that would work, and I can't see any reason I should expect it to
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  555. # [18:40] <Domenic> oooh wow yeah i didn't know either
  556. # [18:41] <Domenic> maybe add it to the line at the top giving the bug URL
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  559. # [18:51] <annevk> jgraham: file a bug on zcorpan for that
  560. # [18:52] <jgraham> zcorpan has his own bug tracker?
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  562. # [18:53] <jgraham> (I honestly don't know where you want me to file the bug)
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  566. # [19:03] <annevk> jgraham: on https://github.com/whatwg/resources.whatwg.org/ I guess
  567. # [19:03] <annevk> jgraham: file-bug.js is his
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  569. # [19:06] <jgraham> annevk: That appears to have issues disabled
  570. # [19:06] <jgraham> And I can't see a component in W3C Bugzilla
  571. # [19:07] <annevk> jgraham: fixed
  572. # [19:07] <jgraham> Well I could have changed the setting too. Doesn't mean that anyone is planning to look at the issues :)
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  577. # [19:12] <jgraham> https://github.com/whatwg/resources.whatwg.org/issues/2 fwiw
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  596. # [19:58] <IZh> Hi Hixie.
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  598. # [20:03] <Hixie> hey
  599. # [20:06] <Ms2ger> Finally!
  600. # [20:09] <Hixie> finally?
  601. # [20:10] <Ms2ger> IZh has been saying hi to you for weeks
  602. # [20:10] <Hixie> heh
  603. # [20:10] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins is severely annoyed
  604. # [20:11] <Hixie> we could start saying hi to him instead
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  606. # [20:11] <Hixie> i wish bugzilla had a way to select bugs assigned to me where i had commented but where i wasn't the one who'd last commented
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  609. # [20:14] <IZh> By saying "Hi" I am checking, whether someone is here now. :-) I prefer to wait instead of posting to black hole and grepping logs for answers. ;-)
  610. # [20:15] <IZh> For example, I can't reach Ben Schwarz for a month. I'm saying "Hi" in private. ;-)
  611. # [20:15] <IZh> Hixie: What is the difference between 2 examples of iframe's seamless attribute?
  612. # [20:16] <Hixie> you're better off just asking the question and seeing if anyone answers, imho :-)
  613. # [20:16] <IZh> Hixie: They are looks same to me.
  614. # [20:16] <Hixie> i'm not the only one who can answer technical questions here. indeed i'm not even the most competent at doing so. :-)
  615. # [20:16] <jgraham> IZh: Of course if you keep doing that then eventually people will /ignore you and you will find it very hard to talk to anyone ;)
  616. # [20:16] <Hixie> which examples?
  617. # [20:17] <jgraham> s/that/pinging people without asking questions/
  618. # [20:17] <IZh> I need an answer about TOC od web-developers edition of the document. As I understand only Ben can answer.
  619. # [20:18] <IZh> Hixie: <nav><iframe seamless src="nav.include.html"></iframe></nav>
  620. # [20:18] <IZh> Hixie: and the previous one.
  621. # [20:18] <IZh> Hixie: I mean, the shorter example do not adding any new information to the longer one.
  622. # [20:19] <Hixie> yeah, for the dev spec one you'll need ben. Maybe try asking him on twitter? He hangs out there more than here IIRC.
  623. # [20:19] <Hixie> looking...
  624. # [20:20] <Hixie> hm yeah those do seem a bit redundant
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  626. # [20:21] <IZh> Yes.
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  631. # [20:26] <annevk> jgraham: ta
  632. # [20:27] <annevk> IZh: Ben said you should email him
  633. # [20:27] <IZh> By the way, I have been for years on IRC channels where everyone said Hi/Bye, and that was ok. It was impolite if you are not saying high when you entered the room. ;-) That was in 1996-2000.
  634. # [20:28] <IZh> annevk: Thank you.
  635. # [20:28] <annevk> IZh: customs change ;-)
  636. # [20:28] <Hixie> IZh: don't worry about the cranky people here :-P
  637. # [20:28] <annevk> haha
  638. # [20:31] <tantek> Hixie++
  639. # [20:33] <Hixie> IZh: fixed the examples for you
  640. # [20:35] * Quits: satazor (~satazor@bl16-80-82.dsl.telepac.pt) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  641. # [20:36] <IZh> Hixie: Thanks.
  642. # [20:38] <Ms2ger> Hixie, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/browsers.html#dom-document-0 confuses me, want to elaborate? :)
  643. # [20:38] <Hixie> which part, the "newest" part?
  644. # [20:38] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  645. # [20:39] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/history.html#initialise-the-document-object
  646. # [20:39] <Hixie> first step
  647. # [20:40] <Hixie> hm, seems i broke my "affected topics" detector
  648. # [20:40] <Hixie> will have to look into that after lunch
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  650. # [20:40] <IZh> Hixie: The paragraph " When used in HTML documents, the allowed content model" near the end of iframe's section seems to me not human readable. :-) I read it 5 times before understand.
  651. # [20:41] <Hixie> please file a bug - i gotta go to a meeting
  652. # [20:41] <Hixie> (you can use the widget in the bottom left to file a bug)
  653. # [20:41] <Ms2ger> Hixie, "and change the document attribute of the Window object..." sounds like the COMEFROM style bz always complains about :)
  654. # [20:41] <Hixie> you can file a bug too :-P
  655. # [20:42] <Hixie> and now i'm gone :-P
  656. # [20:42] <IZh> Hixie: it's not a bug. It's just a very long sentence.
  657. # [20:44] * Joins: satazor (~satazor@bl16-80-82.dsl.telepac.pt)
  658. # [20:44] <Ms2ger> Hixie, oh, the "open bug" link is nice
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  662. # [20:50] <Domenic> IZh: http://nohello.com/
  663. # [20:52] * TabAtkins is planning something in Bikeshed to help reduce COMEFROM effects.
  664. # [20:52] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
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  666. # [20:53] <IZh> I have never heard any complains from people I said Hello to...
  667. # [20:53] <TabAtkins> IZh: Except me.
  668. # [20:53] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  669. # [20:53] <TabAtkins> Read that link. This is an async medium. It's really very annoying if I'm in a room and have to deal with a ping and then wait for someone to actually ask their question.
  670. # [20:53] <caitp> IZh I think most people are able to context switch and can take Hello as just a greeting, but maybe not everyone
  671. # [20:53] <TabAtkins> And it's even worse when I'm not in the room because of differing timezones, and have to deal with multiple content-free pings.
  672. # [20:54] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  673. # [20:54] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  674. # [20:55] <IZh> TabAtkins: My greetings are typically personalized. I don't expect answers from someone else when I talk personally.
  675. # [20:55] <TabAtkins> This doesn't seem to have been true for your pings of Hixie and others in this room over the past weeks.
  676. # [20:56] <TabAtkins> And it's also frustrating when you repeatedly look for one person to ask a question to, when you have no idea if someone else can answer your question as well or better.
  677. # [20:56] * Joins: jeffreyatw (~jeffreyat@66-194-1-26.STATIC.twtelecom.net)
  678. # [20:56] <TabAtkins> Just email people if you really, *really* want to talk to a single person.
  679. # [20:57] <IZh> When I pinged Hixie, I know for sure that only he can answer. The same story with Ben.
  680. # [20:58] <TabAtkins> Except that you're wrong, because you just asked Hixie, and he said he didn't know the answer.
  681. # [20:58] <IZh> Sorry for annoying.
  682. # [20:58] <TabAtkins> It would seem to be an extraordinarily rare circumstance for someone to know they have no idea what the answer to a question is, but be certain of exactly who can answer it.
  683. # [20:59] <TabAtkins> I'm just going to /ignore you if you keep it up, no skin off my back.
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  687. # [21:04] <IZh> TabAtkins: I'll try to be less annoying. But I want to note, that I don't need any help. I want to help and to contribute. So I will loose nothing in any case.
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  689. # [21:05] <TabAtkins> Feel free to help and contribute, that's great. Just do it by pinging people *with a message*, so you can get your answer in one day rather than multiple attempts over a week or longer. ^_^
  690. # [21:05] <tantek> Domenic - wow someone made a one page website of that. Ok, I've added it as sub-variant of "Don't presence query". tantek.com/w/CommunicationProtocols#Dontpresencequery
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  700. # [21:24] <IZh> First rule of the WHATWG club: Never say "Hi" to TabAtkins. ;-)
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  703. # [21:32] <caitp> you've just pinged him again, dangnabbit
  704. # [21:32] <caitp> or her, idk
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  706. # [21:34] <odinho> Tab is a he :)
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  709. # [21:41] <caitp> it's not good to make assumptions, always cover your bases with or clauses
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  713. # [21:47] <zewt> i assumed annevk was a guy (though I did check before committing to a pronoun)
  714. # [21:47] <odinho> True, you never know what people are on the internet. Like Ms2ger. :] But I've met Tab.
  715. # [21:48] <zewt> (call it statistics)
  716. # [21:48] <odinho> zewt: I thought he was a girl before he came into my office and was a guy. :P
  717. # [21:48] <SamB> I either saw a picture or the pronouns on his blog
  718. # [21:48] <SamB> or possibly on IRC
  719. # [21:49] <SamB> er, wait, probably not actual pronouns
  720. # [21:49] <odinho> Not that it changed anything. Gender is a bit unimportant, but we (I) seem to devote brain cells to it anyway. :P
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  722. # [21:50] <caitp> it's unimportant until you hurt peoples feelings and then you feel terrible =(
  723. # [21:52] <zewt> it matters as far as our common language being one dependent on gender-specific pronouns :P
  724. # [21:52] <odinho> Yeah.
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  727. # [21:56] <zewt> suppose I should really say sex-specific pronouns, since gender means something different when talking about language
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  729. # [21:58] <coolbot95> Can somebody summarize the current state of non-Flash-based audio support in modern browsers? As well as the actual standard?
  730. # [21:58] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.114.4.171)
  731. # [21:58] <coolbot95> Do we yet have multi-voice (basically unlimited samples played at once) and panning?
  732. # [21:58] <coolbot95> And volume.
  733. # [21:58] <coolbot95> Those three features are the absolute minimum IMO.
  734. # [21:59] <coolbot95> I'd love being able to modify samples as they play, for example to make it feel like you are underwater.
  735. # [21:59] <coolbot95> Or in a church.
  736. # [21:59] <caitp> i don't think you ever get unlimited high quality mix channels
  737. # [21:59] <coolbot95> Unlimited or "high enough".
  738. # [21:59] <coolbot95> Last time I checked, it was only 1 voice, which is retarded at a 1940s level.
  739. # [21:59] <coolbot95> Flash can apparently play "basically unlimited" samples.
  740. # [21:59] <caitp> have you seen http://hya.io/#/ /
  741. # [22:00] <caitp> been a while since I looked at it, but I recall it worked pretty well
  742. # [22:00] <coolbot95> Huh?
  743. # [22:00] <coolbot95> Did you even read what I asked?
  744. # [22:00] <caitp> I did
  745. # [22:00] <coolbot95> I'm not looking for advice on a library. I'm wondering about the state of the standard and the implementations.
  746. # [22:01] <coolbot95> I already use a different library, which uses a Flash hack.
  747. # [22:01] <caitp> er, it's not advice or a library
  748. # [22:01] <caitp> it's an example application which mixes multiple audio channels
  749. # [22:01] <caitp> and it sounds pretty good
  750. # [22:01] <coolbot95> Hmm...
  751. # [22:01] <coolbot95> Well, it's no good if it runs for me but not others.
  752. # [22:01] <coolbot95> IE users must have it too.
  753. # [22:02] <odinho> coolbot95: No, that's not how standards work.
  754. # [22:02] <caitp> i hear internet explorer is real popular in the musician and sound design community
  755. # [22:02] <coolbot95> caitp: I'm not sure if that's supposed to be a joke.
  756. # [22:02] <caitp> it is
  757. # [22:03] <odinho> coolbot95: That's how web dev works. You think you can't shut out IE. But that's how it is with standards, they can't be implemented right after they're made.
  758. # [22:03] <coolbot95> caitp: What makes you think game players are "musicians" or "sound designers"?
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  760. # [22:03] <caitp> well i'm sure there's some overlap on the venn diagram
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  762. # [22:04] <caitp> anyways the point is that web audio has been used and is being used, and it's not perfect, but it sounds ok
  763. # [22:04] <caitp> you can do cool stuff with it
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  766. # [22:09] <coolbot95> If it doesn't have panning, volume and multi-voice, it's useless for games.
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  768. # [22:10] <caitp> with web audio you're basically setting up a mixer. the mixer isn't without limits, but you can do a lot with it
  769. # [22:11] <caitp> although I think there are some bugs in blink's implementation which could cause problems for long-lived applications right now
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  773. # [22:22] <coolbot95> I have no idea what you mean.
  774. # [22:22] <coolbot95> I just know what I've seen.
  775. # [22:22] <coolbot95> Or heard.
  776. # [22:22] <caitp> okay, lets make another example
  777. # [22:22] <caitp> so a long time ago, a few companies used to make video game consoles
  778. # [22:23] <caitp> one of them was Sega, and in the late 80s, they produced one which controlled sound using an 8bit microcontroller hooked up to a very cheap sound chip
  779. # [22:23] <caitp> this imposed some restrictions on what sort of sounds could be made, it was essentially a cheap DX7
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  784. # [22:24] <caitp> with 6 FM channels, you'd have either one carrier and one modulator, or one carrier and 2 modulators, and you could have 2 or 3 of those combinations pretty much
  785. # [22:25] <caitp> this imposed a limit on the number of voices you could make, and a limit on the timbre of those voices. and yet, people still did awesome stuff with them
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  787. # [22:25] <caitp> even with a very limited mixer, you can still make marketable, quality stuff
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  801. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> zewt: Nope, gender-specific is the right word for it. "sex" and "gender" are distinct concepts.
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  813. # [23:00] <zewt> saying "gender" next to "pronoun" implies the linguistic meaning of the word "gender", which it's not
  814. # [23:00] <zewt> heh, unstable sort detected in chrome
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  817. # [23:01] <zewt> i have the network inspector open, and a few requests are bouncing around randomly, seems like the request timestamp is the same and they're not sorting for display in a consistent way
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  819. # [23:02] <SamB> ... isn't it worrisome that they have the same timestamp?
  820. # [23:02] <zewt> not sure, probably depends on the resolution
  821. # [23:02] <zewt> it could easily get two URLs to fetch in the same millisecond, if they come in the same chunk of parsing the HTML
  822. # [23:03] <SamB> oh sure, but why would it have such a low resolution?
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  824. # [23:03] <zewt> no idea how it works, but that's what you'd get if you were using Date
  825. # [23:03] <SamB> seriously?
  826. # [23:04] <zewt> Date.now() gives integer milliseconds
  827. # [23:04] <SamB> Date does only down to a whopping millisecond?
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  832. # [23:07] <zewt> i'd be more surprised at using an unstable sort; every sort I've seen in years has been stable, you'd have to go hunting for one that isn't (or roll it yourself, but who does that)
  833. # [23:08] <Ms2ger> Quick?
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  835. # [23:09] <SamB> zewt: hmm, sort(1) has a flag for wanting stability
  836. # [23:09] <SamB> implying that the default might be unstable
  837. # [23:10] <zewt> python, javascript, c++ sorts are all stable, i don't think i've ever come across a case where having a stable sort isn't better than not
  838. # [23:11] <SamB> huh, looks like GNU sort is intentionally antistable
  839. # [23:11] <zewt> when given the choice between "predictable behavior" and "unpredictable behavior"...
  840. # [23:11] <SamB> unless you ask for it to be stable
  841. # [23:11] <SamB> or, wait
  842. # [23:11] <zewt> never really noticed with /usr/bin/sort, since i rarely use it for multi-level sorts
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  846. # [23:11] <SamB> "no ordering options other than --reverse" probably just means "ignore everything but reverse", doesn't it
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  851. # [23:12] <SamB> s/ reverse/ --reverse/
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  881. # [23:13] <Hixie> blimey
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  884. # [23:13] <zewt> crikey
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  894. # [23:14] * Ms2ger waves
  895. # [23:14] <zewt> hi
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  898. # [23:14] * tantek waves bye!
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  951. # [23:30] <coolbot95> This chair rattles...
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  953. # [23:30] <coolbot95> I hate rattly shitty chairs.
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  958. # [23:31] <TabAtkins> zewt: Regardless, that's just a matter of a correct term being ambiguous in a particular situation. "Sex-specific pronouns" is still just incorrect.
  959. # [23:32] <TabAtkins> Also, I've never seen a gendered pronoun, in the sense of a gendered noun.
  960. # [23:32] <TabAtkins> "gendered pronoun" always means "referring to a specific gender of person", afaict.
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  962. # [23:33] * ap_ is now known as ap
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  964. # [23:42] * ojan_gardening is now known as ojan
  965. # [23:42] <caitp> i think it depends who you ask, since people come up with all kinds of different ways to refer to tom neuwirth and his stage personality! but it's getting a bit tumblr in here, time to move onto other endeavors
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  968. # [23:46] <Hixie> so... how do i find out if mozilla has implementor interest in a feature?
  969. # [23:46] * Quits: dcherman (~dcherman@164.55.254.106) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  970. # [23:46] <Hixie> tantek, Ms2ger, sicking, annevk: ping ^
  971. # [23:46] <Hixie> for example https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25663
  972. # [23:47] <Ms2ger> Ask
  973. # [23:47] <Ms2ger> Since mounir is gone...
  974. # [23:48] <Hixie> ask whom?
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  976. # [23:48] <Ms2ger> #content
  977. # [23:48] <Hixie> i have like a hundred of these...
  978. # [23:49] <Ms2ger> Oh dear
  979. # [23:49] <Hixie> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?list_id=36950&query_format=advanced&resolution=---&target_milestone=Needs%20Impl%20Interest
  980. # [23:49] <caitp> one of the other vendors could send an intent to ship on a mailing list or bug?
  981. # [23:49] <Ms2ger> Ugh
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  983. # [23:49] <Ms2ger> bz :)
  984. # [23:50] <Hixie> i try cc'ing the people that https://wiki.mozilla.org/Modules/Core says i should ping, but i don't often get a response that way
  985. # [23:50] <Ms2ger> Yeah, people are busy :)
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  987. # [23:53] <Hixie> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25699 (appcache related) would be particularly useful to get feedback on asap
  988. # [23:53] <Ms2ger> I don't know who does appcache
  989. # [23:53] <Ms2ger> Maybe smaug____ does
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  991. # [23:55] <sicking> Hixie: sadly i don't know that we have anyone really owning form controls any more
  992. # [23:55] <tantek> Hixie, I'd ping sicking re: anything appcache / offline / storage related (they're quite interconnected) - and there he is
  993. # [23:55] <sicking> Hixie: jwatt and bz might be good people to ask
  994. # [23:56] <sicking> Hixie: regarding anything appcache, my answer is basically "we're unlikely to invest in appcache at all at this point"
  995. # [23:56] <tantek> Hixie, your general meta approach of querying a handful of mozilla folks about who to ping is a reasonably useful late-binding approach to figuring out who to ping about what in particular
  996. # [23:56] <sicking> we're hoping to deprecate it fairly agressively once SW ships. I don't have an ETA on that though
  997. # [23:57] <Hixie> yeah. this particular bug is about mitigating a potential security issue.
  998. # [23:57] <Hixie> tantek: k
  999. # [23:57] <sicking> Hixie: yeah. That might be the only exception. I skimmed the bug but it wasn't clear to me that it was serious enough. My gut instinct is that it isn't
  1000. # [23:58] <sicking> Hixie: I could check with out security team. That's probably the right thing to do
  1001. # Session Close: Fri May 16 00:00:00 2014

The end :)