/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-06-04 / end

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  51. # [01:26] <Hixie> there's no use case for aggressively downloading something but then not using it until the last possible moment, right?
  52. # [01:27] <Hixie> like a script that would only be run immediately before any scripts depending on it are run
  53. # [01:27] <Hixie> but that is nonetheless downloaded asap
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  127. # [04:14] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I hope the validator.nu instability isn't related to any changes I made to the sources recently
  128. # [04:14] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: Please let me know if I can help with troubleshooting
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  130. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I'm wondering if validator.nu might be running on a 32-bit system. If so I wonder if with the current validator codebase we might be reaching the point where it doesn't run so well on 32-bit systems.
  131. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: All the w3c validator.nu instances I manage are running on 64-bit systems, and my local testing environment is 64 bit, so I haven't been doing much to make sure it still works on 32-bit systems.
  132. # [04:20] * Parts: hoobdeebla (~hoobdeebl@ip70-190-42-239.ph.ph.cox.net)
  133. # [04:22] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I have observed that jing seems to do a huge amount of recursion in order to process the current schema, and on 32 bit systems that seems to exhaust the default Java thread stack size.
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  135. # [04:24] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: So on 32 bit systems I think the current validator sources won't even run any longer unless you tell Java to increase the thread stack size to 512K
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  142. # [04:34] <MikeSmith> Hixie: for some reason http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MicrosyntaxDescriptions is getting served to validator.nu as application/xml
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  146. # [04:42] <a-ja> Hixie: $RANDOM comment: <link rel=stylesheet scoped> plays better with CSP than <style scope>@import</style>...avoids all the nonce nonsense...am I missing something here?
  147. # [04:42] <a-ja> s/scope/scoped/
  148. # [04:43] <roc> a-ja: are you suggesting that <style scoped> should go away?
  149. # [04:44] <roc> a-ja: because <style scoped> with an actual inline stylesheet is potentially very useful
  150. # [04:44] <a-ja> perhaps an impl experience for https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20166
  151. # [04:44] <a-ja> roc: just saying it's a PITA with CSP
  152. # [04:45] <a-ja> roc: have to use 'unsafe-inine' or a nonce
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  154. # [04:45] <a-ja> *inline
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  157. # [04:48] <a-ja> roc: guess i'm arguing for scoped on link in addition to on style
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  210. # [07:32] <JakeA> Hixie: wasn't this Kyle's "social media button" usecase? Load the script but don't run it until mousedown or something like that
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  219. # [08:01] <Hixie> JakeA: yeah, i got confused about precaching vs aggressivey loading.
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  272. # [10:34] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: the Ethiquable Madagascar 85% was really nice :-)
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  274. # [10:36] * Ms2ger takes note :)
  275. # [10:43] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: it seems people are starting to use <picture> markup about now (with picturefill). maybe time to implement it in v.nu (with a warning that it's not shipped in browsers yet)?
  276. # [10:44] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: srcset with x descriptor is shipped, but the other stuff not yet
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  298. # [11:10] <jgraham> Does anyone know where hallvors hangs out these days?
  299. # [11:11] <odinho> Maybe the mozilla server.
  300. # [11:12] <jgraham> Oh, I was being dumb
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  307. # [11:49] * jgraham hands out the party hats
  308. # [11:57] <darobin> we get party hats?
  309. # [11:58] <jgraham> Yes. And there will be cake.
  310. # [11:59] <jgraham> (http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2004-June/211753.html)
  311. # [12:03] <darobin> oooh
  312. # [12:03] <darobin> I'd written that down and then forgot about it
  313. # [12:03] <darobin> happy birthday :)
  314. # [12:12] <annevk> 🎉
  315. # [12:14] <annevk> 🍰 for jgraham
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  318. # [12:16] <jgraham> Oh, a U+FFFD, just what I always wanted
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  322. # [12:24] <annevk> jgraham: it might be displayed as such, but isn't it what's underneath that matters?
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  325. # [12:27] <annevk> mpt: why the WhatWG casing?
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  327. # [12:30] <mpt> annevk, long-standing house style — no acronym with pronouncable portions can have more than three capital letters (cf. Pantone, Nasa, Unicef)
  328. # [12:30] <annevk> mpt: your house style?
  329. # [12:31] <mpt> Yes. :) Otherwise it’s just a cheap way for organizations to grab attention by claiming that their name is entirely capitalized.
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  336. # [12:57] <zcorpan> i'd prefer all-lowercase if you want less attention-grabbing :-P
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  349. # [13:27] <jgraham> Haha
  350. # [13:28] <jgraham> html-wg chair asks for volunteer to do actual work
  351. # [13:28] <jgraham> Only response is "maybe we can look for someone else to do it"
  352. # [13:29] <annevk> jgraham: pointer?
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  354. # [13:30] <jgraham> http://www.w3.org/mid/6f4822f9ac664bd6bdd52ab323882713@BL2PR03MB418.namprd03.prod.outlook.com
  355. # [13:30] <jgraham> To be afir he didn't ask all that long ago
  356. # [13:30] <jgraham> So maybe someone will step forward
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  359. # [13:31] <jgraham> But I wouldn't bet on it
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  365. # [13:53] <annevk> http://www.macrumors.com/2014/06/03/lighting-cable-headphone-mfi/ hmm, headphone jack to become obsolete
  366. # [13:54] <caitp> colour me skeptical
  367. # [13:54] <annevk> jgraham: I wonder why they don't take guidance from their mode of operation and fork some existing tests
  368. # [13:55] <jgraham> annevk: I presume the problem is that there isn't anything to copy
  369. # [13:55] <jgraham> So nothing is happening
  370. # [13:55] <annevk> jgraham: I doubt they landed without tests
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  373. # [14:06] <jgraham> annevk: Oh well if you mean like that, it's not a bad suggestion. Except everyone's existing tests are so ghettoised that porting them is also a huge amount of work
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  398. # [15:27] <tobie> Are there any difference between these two WebIDL fragments: https://gist.github.com/tobie/5e89cd37dd8b819905c4 ?
  399. # [15:28] <tobie> (Outside of the fact that the NoInterfaceObject one can be reused in multiple interfaces)
  400. # [15:30] <annevk> I think not
  401. # [15:30] <annevk> However, this bit of IDL is super tricky and could use clearer wording and such
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  403. # [15:32] <tobie> Can't that be said pretty much of each bit of idl?
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  406. # [15:38] <annevk> tobie: a lot is quite clear, it's just that this implements/interface/[NoInterfaceObject]/partial interface/... is a bit of a pain
  407. # [15:38] <annevk> tobie: now that we know the requirements we can come up with something better
  408. # [15:38] <tobie> :)
  409. # [15:38] <annevk> tobie: and there's some suggestions in some bug on how to do that
  410. # [15:38] <tobie> k
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  412. # [15:44] <tobie> I find input types of function extremely unintuitive too.
  413. # [15:46] <tobie> I'm still unsure whether foo(DOMString bar) means it'll throw or type coerce when passed say an object.
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  416. # [15:49] <Ms2ger> Coerce
  417. # [15:50] <JakeA> annevk: I've been struck by a mystery food illness, so I've spent the morning lying in bed thinking about preflight requests triggered by the page. Think there's a security issue. Page makes XHR request with fancy headers, SW responds "yeeeep, go ahead" to the preflight, then allows the subsequent CORS request to hit the network.
  418. # [15:50] <JakeA> Circumvented CORS preflight
  419. # [15:51] <JakeA> Don't think preflight requests should ever go to the SW
  420. # [15:51] <annevk> JakeA: agreed
  421. # [15:51] <JakeA> but the request should go to the SW before the preflight
  422. # [15:51] <annevk> tobie: yeah it's not great
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  424. # [15:52] <annevk> JakeA: the preflight is only to ensure the server knows about CORS, I think we can assume that in case of SW
  425. # [15:52] <tobie> Ms2ger: so when does it coerce and when does it throw?
  426. # [15:53] <JakeA> annevk: Which server?
  427. # [15:53] <annevk> JakeA: any
  428. # [15:53] <Ms2ger> tobie, when there's a sensible coercion, I guess
  429. # [15:53] <annevk> JakeA: so we need to alter http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#cors-fetch-with-preflight somehow
  430. # [15:53] <tobie> Ms2ger: haha
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  432. # [15:54] <JakeA> annevk: You only need to preflight if SW doesn't handle the request
  433. # [15:54] <tobie> Ms2ger: So what exactly does input types tell us?
  434. # [15:55] <Ms2ger> tobie, what type you'll get after WebIDL has done its thing
  435. # [15:55] <annevk> JakeA: I guess that algorithm needs a step 0 to invoke "handle a fetch"
  436. # [15:56] <JakeA> annevk: agreed
  437. # [15:56] <JakeA> annevk: and a flag to prevent preflights going into the SW
  438. # [15:56] <annevk> JakeA: and then in addition we need to annotate the request object to make sure that in step 3 it does not ask the SW again
  439. # [15:56] <JakeA> :D
  440. # [15:57] <annevk> Bit unfortunate we need to have separate places for SW integration
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  444. # [15:58] <tobie> Ms2ger: so when I say foo(DOMString s), what that means implementation wise is: coerce whatever you get into a DOMString.
  445. # [15:58] <annevk> tobie: it means ToString(s)
  446. # [15:59] <annevk> tobie: see http://heycam.github.io/webidl/#es-DOMString
  447. # [16:01] <tobie> Stupid question, but why don't we write: foo(ToString(s))?
  448. # [16:01] <annevk> tobie: because IDL is based on OMGIDL
  449. # [16:01] <JakeA> annevk: unless we continue to send preflights to the SW, but if the SW handles the preflight it must also handle the main request. Feels tricky to reason about though.
  450. # [16:02] <JakeA> having the SW handle preflights feels too tricky
  451. # [16:02] <annevk> JakeA: it doesn't make much sense either
  452. # [16:03] <JakeA> Agreed
  453. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I've already implemented the schema support for <picture>/<source> and updated the schema for <img> with @sizes and @srcset
  454. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: https://github.com/validator/syntax/compare/picture
  455. # [16:04] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: oh. nice!
  456. # [16:04] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: well that part was easy. What remains is that I need to implement error-reporting parsing support for @sizes and @srcset
  457. # [16:04] <zewt> <picture>? yuck
  458. # [16:04] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I plan to work on that this weekend
  459. # [16:04] <Ms2ger> tobie, because you don't have a "ToString" after you're done?
  460. # [16:05] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: these should be invalid https://gist.github.com/jeremys/73817e90bc3cf83aa4c5
  461. # [16:05] <Ms2ger> tobie, but let's assume foo(ToString(s)) makes sense. What do you do for 'DOMString?'?
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  463. # [16:06] <tobie> Ms2ger: what do you mean?
  464. # [16:06] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: "When a source element is a child of a picture element and has a following sibling source element or img element with a srcset attribute specified, it must have at least one of the following:" http://picture.responsiveimages.org/#the-source-element
  465. # [16:06] <Ms2ger> tobie, foo(DOMString? arg)
  466. # [16:07] <tobie> Oh, hadn't see the double "?" sorry
  467. # [16:07] <tobie> foo(ToString(s?))
  468. # [16:08] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  469. # [16:08] <tobie> no sorry: foo(ToString(s)?)
  470. # [16:08] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah there are some really unusual doc-conformance contraints in the picture spec. I'll need to write some custom code for those. There's no way to express them in the schema.
  471. # [16:09] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: feedback welcome if something is insane
  472. # [16:10] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: my feedback for now is, there's no precedent in the HTML for at least one of those constraints
  473. # [16:10] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: can't remember which one, but maybe it's the one you quoted above
  474. # [16:11] <tobie> Ms2ger: thing is, generally input types described allowed types, while we're using them here to describe transformations to any type.
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  476. # [16:12] <Ms2ger> foo(ToString(s)?) doesn't make any sense to me
  477. # [16:12] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i guess we can make it slightly simpler like require media to be present regardless of its value
  478. # [16:12] <Ms2ger> It's not a type you're converting to, and it's not an algorithm
  479. # [16:14] <tobie> Well, ToString() is the shorthand for an algorithm, no?
  480. # [16:14] <annevk> http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-tostring
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  482. # [16:15] <annevk> Anyway, until someone maintains IDL chatting about it is rather moot
  483. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: well I suspect those contraints are symptoms or consequences indicating that authoring <picture><source> correctly is error-prone, so authors are going to make a lot of mistakes
  484. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: so it'll be nice to have validator support to help them catch the mistakes
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  486. # [16:17] <annevk> JakeA: it's not that simple I think
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  488. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: one constraint I guess you know we can't practically check is the one that says the specified dimensions have to match the intrinsic dimensions of the image (or whatever case where that's required)
  489. # [16:17] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: it's a bit hard to grasp how the stuff works and things have changed from e.g. the current TR/ version so yeah some pointers from the validator would be great
  490. # [16:18] <annevk> JakeA: "HTTP fetch" does a bunch of things to a request we would want to do in this case as well before passing it to the SW
  491. # [16:18] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: yeah. html has something similar for the width="" attribute
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  493. # [16:18] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: could be checked for in devtools though when the image is loaded
  494. # [16:18] <MikeSmith> yeah
  495. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I mean, we could check it in the validator. it's possible. But I think it would not be a good idea due to the performance cost
  496. # [16:19] <JakeA> annevk: hmm, so it needs to prep the final request, send it to the SW, if unhandled or default() do the preflight before making the final request
  497. # [16:20] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: agree
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  499. # [16:22] <annevk> JakeA: and if it's handled, we want the normal "HTTP fetch" handling for the response I think
  500. # [16:23] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: anyway, thanks for that URL. I guess you know we're rightly going to need a lot of validator tests for this at some point. Ideally would be nice to have some while I'm implementing the validator support but that would require me to stop and write them first. So I'm going to forge ahead without them for now. I'm sure that's considered a sin, but I'm a sinner already so oh well
  501. # [16:23] <JakeA> annevk: agreed
  502. # [16:24] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: that's fine :-)
  503. # [16:24] <annevk> JakeA: it almost seems this algorithm should be merged into "HTTP fetch" as an additional flag
  504. # [16:24] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i can write some tests tomorrow maybe
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  507. # [16:24] <annevk> JakeA: which people hate, but it would handle all the cases
  508. # [16:25] <JakeA> annevk: Why the hate?
  509. # [16:25] <JakeA> I guess it's like one long function rather than a separate one for CORS preflight
  510. # [16:26] <tobie> annevk: sure, though, tbh, I'm still at the "trying to figure it out" phase at this point.
  511. # [16:26] <annevk> JakeA: not sure if there's much hate, but in general it would be less readable than having nice short functions
  512. # [16:26] <JakeA> heh
  513. # [16:26] <JakeA> true
  514. # [16:26] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: that'd be great if you can make time. I'll be a plane pretty much all day on Sunday so I'm planning to use that time to try to get most of the srcset/sizes parsing+reporting part done
  515. # [16:26] <annevk> JakeA: I don't really see a good alternative though
  516. # [16:27] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i hope you'll be able to transform back into MikeSmith afterwards
  517. # [16:27] <MikeSmith> heh
  518. # [16:28] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah I see I forgot the hyphen, "I'll be a-plane all day"
  519. # [16:29] <JakeA> annevk: If I make a cross-origin XHR request, but respondWith a non-opaque response, can we skip the CORS check?
  520. # [16:29] <JakeA> annevk: because .respondWith(new Request("Hello!")) would fail at the moment wouldn't it?
  521. # [16:30] <annevk> I was wondering why darobin was asking about document.origin rather than the myriad of other features in DOM with poor implementations support. Seems Glenn Adams made a test case
  522. # [16:30] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i don't know what a-plane means :-(
  523. # [16:31] <darobin> annevk: indeed
  524. # [16:31] <darobin> but more generally I was wondering why something that strikes me as useful and not hard to implement wasn't there
  525. # [16:31] <annevk> darobin: exhibit n as to why things are broken over there
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  528. # [16:32] <annevk> JakeA: yeah, I think it would be great if we made that work
  529. # [16:32] <darobin> annevk: I care about solutions — exhibits? *yawn*
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  531. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: some quaint archaic verb form, like "He was a-horse in battle when he met his end", meaning he was riding a hore
  532. # [16:33] <zewt> riding a, err...
  533. # [16:33] <annevk> JakeA: I haven't really gotten there yet
  534. # [16:33] <JakeA> annevk: I guess step 11 nees to be part of the "if" in step 10
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  536. # [16:33] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: ok :-)
  537. # [16:33] <darobin> riding a hore?
  538. # [16:34] * darobin won't presume which letter is missing there
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  540. # [16:34] <JakeA> annevk: no worries, just spotting stuff as I see it
  541. # [16:34] <annevk> JakeA: ah yes, that prolly makes sense, only do CORS checks for network retrieved resources
  542. # [16:35] <zewt> am I the only one completely bewildered by bugs like "Define code values for the special keys on Sun keyboard"
  543. # [16:35] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Nice try, but your secret identity as transformer and star of a franchise of terrible* films has been revealed (*probably. I haven't ever watched them.)
  544. # [16:36] <JakeA> annevk: If the original request has a CORS flag, you'll still want to error on tainted responses from the SW
  545. # [16:37] <annevk> JakeA: yeah, wasn't sure if we should do that in the network layer or the API layer, fetch layer prolly makes sense
  546. # [16:37] <annevk> s/network/fetch/
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  549. # [16:39] <MikeSmith> jgraham: terrible in the Ivan the Terrible sense yeah
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  556. # [16:48] <annevk> JakeA: okay so I guess I need to merge those two algorithms
  557. # [16:49] <annevk> JakeA: CORS fetch with preflight and HTTP fetch, unless you see another way
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  560. # [16:55] <annevk> JakeA: I guess I'll introduce a "CORS preflight flag" that'll be set and it'll take care of the necessary branching
  561. # [16:55] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, I can't think of another way, seems like the best plan
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  569. # [17:19] <JakeA> TabAtkins: https://twitter.com/tabatkins/status/474207822620921856 - tell me more sir
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  574. # [17:32] <JakeA> TabAtkins: Sounds like what you want is a fetch that uses credentials & become non-tainted if CORS headers are there, but doesn't fail if CORS headers are absent. I don't think this happens anywhere already, but I want it for serviceworkers
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  576. # [17:36] <annevk> JakeA: https://twitter.com/jaffathecake/status/474212681839575040 use crossorigin=use-credentials
  577. # [17:36] <annevk> nooo, not more modes :-(
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  579. # [17:38] <JakeA> annevk: where's use-credentials mentioned? Makes sense, but I can't find it on http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/semantics.html#attr-link-crossorigin
  580. # [17:39] <annevk> JakeA: follow the link from there to http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/fetching-resources.html#cors-settings-attribute
  581. # [17:39] <JakeA> annevk: Gotcha!
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  584. # [17:58] <JakeA> annevk: In terms of the extra mode, I'm concerned about how complicated caching a cross-domain resource is currently. But if anything, I hope to get to the bottom of why img responses with CORS headers (including credentials) must still be tainted
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  596. # [18:20] <annevk> JakeA: caching those would be hard anyway as that requires more than just using a wildcard
  597. # [18:23] <JakeA> annevk: What does it need on top of Access-Control-Allow-Credentials: true?
  598. # [18:23] <annevk> JakeA: to make sure the headers are not static
  599. # [18:23] <annevk> JakeA: we don't want it to be trivial to expose credentialed resources
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  603. # [18:26] <JakeA> annevk: what do you mean by "static" headers?
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  605. # [18:27] <annevk> JakeA: headers which you could include without doing something conditional
  606. # [18:28] <annevk> I'm surprised you don't know about CORS
  607. # [18:28] <annevk> I wonder how many other developers don't
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  610. # [18:35] <JakeA> annevk: It's not something I've used a whole lot, so I'm rusty on the headers. However, see http://vimeo.com/77497239#t=48m10s
  611. # [18:37] <JakeA> the room on average does really badly in those questions
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  615. # [18:40] <annevk> JakeA: thanks for that
  616. # [18:41] <annevk> JakeA: third question is fun
  617. # [18:41] <JakeA> annevk: is that the text/plain one?
  618. # [18:41] <annevk> JakeA: yeah, ah, you gave the next one away at the end
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  620. # [18:42] <JakeA> most people still got it wrong
  621. # [18:42] <annevk> heh
  622. # [18:42] <annevk> yeah, I guess they needed that tip
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  626. # [18:53] <annevk> JakeA: https://github.com/whatwg/fetch/commit/7fd1a7a34edf06e230d99523190e0e8c059ebd01
  627. # [18:54] <annevk> JakeA: I don't want setting .body to work
  628. # [18:54] <annevk> JakeA: not without something that gives guarantees of .body = x; .body == x
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  630. # [18:57] <JakeA> annevk: agreed, would be nice if you could set body but happy to throw if it isn't a stream
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  633. # [18:59] <JakeA> annevk: changes look good, will take a closer look tomorrow when I'm (hopefully) not all food poisoned
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  646. # [19:20] <astearns> Hixie: I think you've been asking for something like this: http://globau.wordpress.com/2014/06/04/bugzilla-can-now-show-bugs-that-have-been-updated-since-you-last-visited-them/
  647. # [19:20] <astearns> not exactly what you wanted, but closer
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  713. # [21:22] <Hixie> jorendorff: so i think what i'm going to try to do is write up a description of how the Loader thing works, first. rather than try to just jump to writing extensions of it.
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  716. # [21:27] <jorendorff> Hixie: ok. ping me on irc if you need anything, i suck at email
  717. # [21:27] <jorendorff> Hixie: description of how the Loader works at a spec level?
  718. # [21:28] <Hixie> yeah, like, writing an alternative equivalent spec for what there is now
  719. # [21:28] <Hixie> from what i understand, what there is now is literally generated from code
  720. # [21:28] <Hixie> which imho makes it hard to understand
  721. # [21:28] <Hixie> (might be easier to just read the original code, actually)
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  725. # [21:33] <jorendorff> well, it's not literally generated from code, but the code did precede the text.
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  728. # [21:35] <jorendorff> Adhering to ES spec conventions instead of using prose (or, inventing new conventions) is a big part of how awful it is
  729. # [21:35] <jorendorff> (I wrote a bunch of that, but don't tell anyone)
  730. # [21:36] <jorendorff> (Alan Smithee wrote it)
  731. # [21:37] <Hixie> examples and non-normative colour would go a long way :-)
  732. # [21:39] <jorendorff> agreed
  733. # [21:39] <jorendorff> non-normative what the hell is this thing would go a long way
  734. # [21:39] <jorendorff> on the individual parts
  735. # [21:40] <jorendorff> indeed many parts of that spec could use that kind of love
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  741. # [21:46] <zewt> terrible spec style, but at least it tells you what to do instead of describing what the result should be, like way too many specs
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  745. # [21:58] <Hixie> jorendorff: ok let's start with teh simplest question, i guess. Where do I start? Do I tell the ES system that I want to run a script (not a module) with a particular URL, or do I hand it some source?
  746. # [21:58] <Hixie> assuming just regular old <script> for now
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  752. # [22:21] <jorendorff> Hixie: you want to know how <script> talks to the ES spec? looking
  753. # [22:22] <jorendorff> http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-runtime-semantics-scriptevaluation
  754. # [22:22] <jorendorff> note the NOTE
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  756. # [22:24] <Hixie> so the answer to my question is i hand it some source, right?
  757. # [22:26] <Hixie> and presumably decided to Unicode? the ES spec doesn't do any character encoding conversion, right?
  758. # [22:26] <Hixie> decoded
  759. # [22:26] <Hixie> not decided
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  761. # [22:29] <Hixie> jorendorff: how does http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-initialization fit into this?
  762. # [22:33] <jorendorff> Hmm. that section is relatively new
  763. # [22:33] <jorendorff> I don't know.
  764. # [22:33] <jorendorff> Hixie: when I want to understand how this works i look at http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-eval-x
  765. # [22:34] <jorendorff> Hixie: an indirect call to eval is very much like <script>
  766. # [22:37] * SamB__ is now known as SamB
  767. # [22:40] <jorendorff> Hixie: even though it *looks* like character encoding conversion is happening there, it's really just saying "decode this string of 16-bit code units to unicode, using UTF-16"
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  769. # [22:42] <zewt> that sounds like a conversion to me :)
  770. # [22:43] <zewt> ("decode 16-bit units to unicode using utf-16" says "collapse surrogate pairs to single unicode codepoints" to me)
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  772. # [22:47] <jorendorff> zewt: yes, it is a conversion, but not in the sense hixie meant
  773. # [22:47] <jorendorff> the spec wants you to give it unicode, not bytes
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  775. # [22:47] <jorendorff> confirmed
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  778. # [22:58] <Hixie> jorendorff: yeah but for eval you don't have to create a realm and so on, right?
  779. # [22:58] <Hixie> it seems to me like #sec-initialization is the thing that's trying to define how <script>s work in a web page
  780. # [22:58] <Hixie> though it doesn't really map that cleanly
  781. # [22:59] <jorendorff> Hixie: you don't create a realm for each <script> either
  782. # [22:59] <Hixie> right
  783. # [22:59] <Hixie> hence the #sec-initialization step 7
  784. # [22:59] <Hixie> though i've no idea what step 8 means
  785. # [22:59] <Hixie> and i doubt steps 7 and 8 actually describe what happens on the web
  786. # [22:59] <jorendorff> i'm glad you know what step 7 is about because i sure don't
  787. # [23:00] <jorendorff> "synchronously obtain source code" wat
  788. # [23:00] <Hixie> well i'm just guessing
  789. # [23:00] <Hixie> it doesn't say it's synchronous
  790. # [23:00] <Hixie> it says "In an implementation dependent manner"
  791. # [23:00] <Hixie> i have more of a problem with step 8
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  793. # [23:01] <Hixie> i wonder how step 5 can be abrupt
  794. # [23:02] <Hixie> seems to me that if http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-setdefaultglobalbindings fails when no script has yet run, you have a bad situation on your hands...
  795. # [23:03] <jorendorff> Hixie: abstractly, the realm and global for a given document are created super early, before parsing really even starts
  796. # [23:03] <jorendorff> Hixie: parsing, abstractly, adds DOM objects to the doctree, right?
  797. # [23:03] * jorendorff doesn't really know
  798. # [23:03] <Hixie> very abstractly, es
  799. # [23:03] <Hixie> yes
  800. # [23:03] <Hixie> HTML has tons of prose around how <script>s execute
  801. # [23:03] <Hixie> but i don't have anything about realms
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  803. # [23:03] <jorendorff> if so, and those are JS objects, then the realm has to exist first, for those objects to have suitable prototype chains
  804. # [23:03] <Hixie> i do create the global
  805. # [23:04] <Hixie> one would imagine
  806. # [23:04] <jorendorff> the realm is really just the global and all that javascripty stuff
  807. # [23:04] <jorendorff> so this initialization happens super early
  808. # [23:04] <Hixie> sadly it's not _all_ that javascripty stuff
  809. # [23:04] <Hixie> e.g. it doesn't include the script settings object
  810. # [23:04] <Hixie> which is critical for certain web apis to be defined accurately
  811. # [23:04] <Hixie> but that's another story
  812. # [23:05] <Hixie> #sec-initialization really doesn't match the web
  813. # [23:05] <Hixie> steps 7 and 8 don't work like that at all
  814. # [23:05] <jorendorff> for sure
  815. # [23:05] <Hixie> i guess HTML should run steps 1-5 of that algorithm
  816. # [23:06] <jorendorff> Hixie: both specs assuming they are in control of the event loop is not really tenable
  817. # [23:06] <Hixie> well that's another problem too, yeah
  818. # [23:06] <Hixie> one thing at a time though!
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  820. # [23:07] <jorendorff> well, that's what step 8 signifies to me: this spec thinks it knows how to start processing tasks
  821. # [23:08] <Hixie> step 8 is wrong for more reasons than just that
  822. # [23:08] <Hixie> this algorithm implies that all the scripts are piled up, then all executed
  823. # [23:08] <Hixie> that's simply not how it works
  824. # [23:08] <Hixie> for example, in <script></script><script></script>, between the two scripts executing, the DOM is modified.
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  829. # [23:12] <Hixie> jorendorff: btw where do i report typos? "When the abstract operation CreateIntrinsics with argument realmRec performs the following:" is grammatically dubious
  830. # [23:13] <Hixie> also step 12 of CreateIntrinsics has the wrong font
  831. # [23:14] <Hixie> and that algorithm references CreateBuildinFunction should seems to not exist
  832. # [23:15] <jorendorff> Hixie: bugs.ecmascript.org for typos; wrong font in PDF, same place
  833. # [23:16] <jorendorff> wrong font in HTML is most likely my fault and can be reported at https://github.com/jorendorff/es-spec-html/issues
  834. # [23:17] <Hixie> one bug per typo, or should i coallesce?
  835. # [23:17] <jorendorff> i always coalesce, but then when you find the next thing, file another bug, not a comment on the original
  836. # [23:17] <Hixie> sure
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  842. # [23:25] <Hixie> jorendorff: i sent a mail to es-discuss about #sec-init
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The end :)