/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-06-23 / end

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  67. # [03:25] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: so I need to come up with a one-sentence prose description of "valid source size list" to add to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MicrosyntaxDescriptions
  68. # [03:26] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: how about "A comma-separated list of size expressions, with each size expression consisting of a CSS length optionally preceded by a CSS media condition."?
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  79. # [03:54] <MikeSmith> Hixie: Clicking on the [FOO] text in the References section (in the single page spec) should ideally show me that <dfn> popup thing, listing all the places in the spec which reference [FOO]
  80. # [03:54] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I thought you had it doing that behavior before and it's regressed, but maybe I just imagined that it did it before but it never actually had
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  83. # [03:56] <MikeSmith> Hixie: anyway it seems like with your current toolchain if you just wrapped the [FOO] text there is a <dfn> it would automatically give the behavior I want
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  86. # [03:57] <MikeSmith> Hixie: and further anyway, please consider this a request to make your new toolchain do it at least
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  96. # [04:34] <Hixie> MikeSmith: nted
  97. # [04:35] <Hixie> noted, even
  98. # [04:35] <MikeSmith> thanks
  99. # [04:35] <MikeSmith> raised a bug for it
  100. # [04:35] <Hixie> oh, excellent, thanks
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  103. # [04:39] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: I guess there's a reason why source-size lists can only contain <media-condition>s but not <media-query>s?
  104. # [04:42] <TabAtkins> <media-query> is stupid and legacy, that's why.
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  106. # [04:43] <TabAtkins> Regarding a prose description, I might emphasize that there are pairs of conditions/sizes, and a final bare size.
  107. # [04:44] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: How useful is that ref thing? I was thinking of adding it to Bikeshed.
  108. # [04:45] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: for the HTML spec at least I find it extremely useful myself
  109. # [04:45] <MikeSmith> necessary even
  110. # [04:46] <MikeSmith> for smaller specs it might be less useful
  111. # [04:47] <TabAtkins> Interesting would be to ref cross-spec too.
  112. # [04:48] <TabAtkins> Would mean a larger database from Shepherd, but definitely possible.
  113. # [04:48] <MikeSmith> oooh yeah
  114. # [04:48] <MikeSmith> that would be very nice to have
  115. # [04:49] <Hixie> oh like a <dfn> pointing to where it's used in other specs?
  116. # [04:49] <Hixie> that'd be interesting
  117. # [04:49] <MikeSmith> yeah
  118. # [04:52] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: hmm yeah about the prose description, from what you said and looking back at the grammar, I realize it's not pairs of "a CSS length optionally preceded by a CSS media condition.
  119. # [04:52] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Please make HTML Bikeshed friendly for its dfns, and I will produce wonders.
  120. # [04:52] <Hixie> file a bug letting me know what you need
  121. # [04:52] <TabAtkins> Kk
  122. # [04:53] <Hixie> i'm hoping to make my pipeline eventually just fetch the remote specs and figure it all out dynamically
  123. # [04:53] <TabAtkins> (It's a whole bunch of data-dfn-type attributes.)
  124. # [04:53] <TabAtkins> Yeah, you should be able to use Shepherd's data too. It's great.
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  130. # [05:04] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: OK so for the prose how about "A list of one or more condition-size pairs, each consisting of a required CSS media condition plus a required size (CSS length), then optionally with a single final (condition-less) size (CSS length) following the list of all condition-length pairs."?
  131. # [05:04] <MikeSmith> prose is hard
  132. # [05:05] <TabAtkins> Sounds reasonable
  133. # [05:05] <MikeSmith> cool, thanks
  134. # [05:05] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Let me know when you're interested, I can help you interface with Shepherd for linking data.
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  136. # [05:15] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: for <picture> is there a use case for specifying both media= and sizes= for the same <source> element?
  137. # [05:17] <TabAtkins> Yeah, for sure. Use sizes whenever the image is variable sized.
  138. # [05:17] <TabAtkins> That can definitely happen within media breakpoints.
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  140. # [05:18] <MikeSmith> ok
  141. # [05:19] <SamB> TabAtkins: does he like keep it in a cyborg implant or something?
  142. # [05:19] <SamB> the linking data
  143. # [05:20] <TabAtkins> Shepherd is the name of the program. ^_^
  144. # [05:20] <TabAtkins> plinss is the maintainer of the project.
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  147. # [05:23] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: so sizes='all 500px, 100vw' is disallowed, right? (because it has a media query, not a media condition)
  148. # [05:24] <SamB> TabAtkins: so how come the program is the one with a human-looking name!
  149. # [05:25] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Yes
  150. # [05:26] <TabAtkins> SamB: Shepherd is a title, not a name!
  151. # [05:26] <SamB> TabAtkins: some people seem to have it as a name anyway
  152. # [05:28] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: so (sorry if I'm being daft) but why is "all 500px" disallowed? There's no use case for an author to use it? (Or to use some similar media query in sizes with whatever other media type)
  153. # [05:29] <TabAtkins> Media queries are obsolete.
  154. # [05:29] <TabAtkins> That is, the actual mq part.
  155. # [05:30] <TabAtkins> They're mostly deprecated in the spec. Only a handful of remaining ones are allowed to evaluate to anything.
  156. # [05:32] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: ok, thanks
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  162. # [06:19] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: incidentally do you think it would be useful for the markup validator to emit a warning for use of media-type mqs in HTML markup -- e.g., source@media and link@media?
  163. # [06:19] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: with the warning saying or paraphrasing the "It is expected that all of the media types will also be deprecated in time, as appropriate media features are defined which capture their important differences." statement from the MQ spec
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  165. # [06:21] <SamB> so, what's the new way to handle style for printing?
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  167. # [06:24] <MikeSmith> SamB: maybe "update-frequency:none, pointer:none, hover:none, overflow-block: paged, overflow-inline: none"
  168. # [06:24] <MikeSmith> per http://dev.w3.org/csswg/mediaqueries-4/#issue-ef9781e9
  169. # [06:25] * SamB wonders how pointer:none helps with that ...
  170. # [06:30] <MikeSmith> SamB: I see now my response wasn't an answer to the question you actually asked but instead an answer to the question, "What's the new way to do a media query for print?"
  171. # [06:32] <MikeSmith> or more specifically a media query for printer device, as opposed to say, an eink device, as opposed to a desktop computer
  172. # [06:33] <SamB> ah, I guess I see the point there ...
  173. # [06:34] <MikeSmith> yeah the actual CSS rules of your "print" stylesheet you'd just keep the same as now, I think
  174. # [06:34] <SamB> hmm, actually, wait, none of that indicates the need for a different color scheme
  175. # [06:34] <MikeSmith> well it's just an editor's note-to-self FIXME in the spec at this point, I think
  176. # [06:35] <MikeSmith> but it gives the general idea
  177. # [06:36] <MikeSmith> that idea being, you do finer-grained feature detection instead of simple-minded coarse media-type detection
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  179. # [06:38] <SamB> which is why I thought of the lack of a hint for the different color needs presented by paper (like "don't wrinkle it to hell by putting ink everywhere for no reason")
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  193. # [07:16] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: it should be zero or more ... Optionally followed by the default size. But at least one of them
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  206. # [07:46] <TabAtkins> SamB: As noted, the answer is "figure out what things you actually depend on", and use MQs for those.
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  208. # [07:47] <SamB> yeah
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  222. # [09:13] <mathiasbynens> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7928968 makes it seem like the URL Standard needs some evangelism
  223. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> https://twitter.com/shadow_hayato/status/480931013871165442 :-)
  224. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> hayato++
  225. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> mathiasbynens: oh god
  226. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> "The relevant specs are..." [list of the wrong specs instead of the right one]
  227. # [09:18] <mathiasbynens> yep… and there are several comments like that
  228. # [09:18] <mathiasbynens> i replied, but it seems like More People™ need to know about the URL Standard
  229. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> mathiasbynens: your plan sounds logical but would result in much less entertainment value like what's provided in these comments
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  234. # [09:40] <Ms2ger> mathiasbynens, that's not a real standard! It's not written for 80s printers!
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  264. # [11:32] <odinho> http://blogs.opera.com/desktop/2014/06/opera-24-linux-released-developer-stream/ < opera developer 24 linux ♥ :)
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  269. # [11:53] <jgraham> Better late than never I guess
  270. # [11:53] <jgraham> Although I was guessing "never" so apparently my guesses aren't worth much
  271. # [11:53] <wilhelm> I lost a bet.
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  275. # [12:21] <annevk> mathiasbynens: talk about it at a conference?
  276. # [12:21] <annevk> mathiasbynens: could use some help with test suite and browser evangalism too
  277. # [12:22] <annevk> mathiasbynens: Gecko folks seem to be warming up to the idea of cleaning up URL code, but it's going to take a while
  278. # [12:23] <annevk> Domenic: when will streams.spec.whatwg.org be up?
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  325. # [16:20] <Domenic> annevk_: good question. I have no idea how to get subdomains set up. Halp?
  326. # [16:20] * annevk_ is now known as annevk
  327. # [16:20] <annevk> Domenic: Hixie can get you an account and ssh access
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  329. # [16:21] <annevk> Domenic: unless you want me to handle a basic syncing thing that the other specs use too
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  331. # [16:21] <annevk> Domenic: most *.spec.whatwg.org domains just have a webhook which is a simple script that gets files from GH
  332. # [16:22] <Domenic> annevk: hmm unsure. maybe i could see your scripts or whatevs, then figure out how to get them integrated into the CI?
  333. # [16:22] <Domenic> Right now I have https://github.com/whatwg/streams/blob/master/deploy-gh-pages.sh
  334. # [16:23] <annevk> #!/bin/sh
  335. # [16:23] <annevk> echo "Content-type: text/plain"
  336. # [16:23] <annevk> echo ""
  337. # [16:23] <annevk> curl -L https://raw.github.com/whatwg/dom/master/dom-core.html > dom-core.html
  338. # [16:23] <annevk> echo "teehee"
  339. # [16:23] <Domenic> heh fair
  340. # [16:23] <Domenic> I am aiming for a "v0.9" end of this week, so yeah getting the correct URL might be good.
  341. # [16:23] <annevk> So if you want to handle it yourself, just ask Hixie
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  363. # [17:36] <Domenic> annevk: what does asBlob add that asArrayBuffer does not?
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  460. # [20:30] <annevk> Domenic: MIME
  461. # [20:31] <annevk> Domenic: and being cloneable without memory impact
  462. # [20:31] <Domenic> annevk: aren't ArrayBuffers transferable?
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  469. # [20:46] <annevk> Domenic: that makes them unreadable from the point of transfer
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  471. # [20:47] <annevk> (which is why I said cloneable, not transferable)
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  475. # [20:58] <Domenic> mmm, right, so they're the missing immutable array buffers
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  527. # [22:13] <Domenic> WebIDL needs to be moved to Rec. That is exactly what it needs.
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  533. # [22:24] <Hixie> yeah, nothing would help webidl more than to be moved to rec...
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  541. # [22:32] <annevk> o_O
  542. # [22:32] <annevk> Glenn Adams keeps spreading his wisdom I see
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  545. # [22:33] <annevk> Domenic: immutable ArrayBuffer would not be able to be disk-backed (when you're low on RAM, or dealing with large files)
  546. # [22:36] <annevk> nn
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  548. # [22:39] <jamesr_> annevk: should i go with your text or boris' re unhandled errors?
  549. # [22:39] <annevk> jamesr_: explicitly invoking that is probably good
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  551. # [22:39] <annevk> jamesr_: although I'm not sure you have all that information actually
  552. # [22:39] <annevk> jamesr_: that's why I didn't suggest that
  553. # [22:39] <annevk> DOM has this bug too, I'm waiting for HTML/IDL to provide better hooks
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  555. # [22:40] <jamesr_> annevk: looks like inputs are 'script', 'position' and 'target'. i dunno what 'target' is supposed to be but the others i should be able to get from somewhere..
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  559. # [22:41] <jamesr_> looks like target is a hook to avoid recursion
  560. # [22:41] <annevk> jamesr_: seems somewhat weird to me to invoke that
  561. # [22:41] <jamesr_> hmmm
  562. # [22:41] <annevk> jamesr_: what actually happens is that the ECMAScript engine terminates (engine started for that callback)
  563. # [22:42] <annevk> jamesr_: so something should just wrap the engine terminating and you should just cause it to terminate by rethrowing an exception
  564. # [22:42] <annevk> anyway, bedtime
  565. # [22:42] <jamesr_> and poor polyfill guy is boned
  566. # [22:42] <jamesr_> g'night
  567. # [22:43] <JonathanNeal> ouch
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  577. # [23:07] <JonathanNeal> Any folks here using SVGs? I have some questions about using them in <use xlink:href> vs <img src>.
  578. # [23:09] <JonathanNeal> Namely, I have used <use xlink:href> because it allows me to style properties of the svg per instance per page. The downside is, IE does not support external sources and no browsers supports cross domain sources.
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  580. # [23:27] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: And?
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  582. # [23:28] <JonathanNeal> Well, since <img> doesn’t do the aforementioned things, I was wondering what techniques people have chosen and how they have worked around the drawbacks.
  583. # [23:29] <SamB> JonathanNeal: did you check if .svg can do those things?
  584. # [23:30] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Ah, so you've got a collection of SVG images, and you're trying to use an inline <svg><use/></svg> in the page to try and produce colors to it via inheritance?
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  586. # [23:30] <SamB> if that doesn't work, maybe you can, uh, use xinclude to *generate* the different-colored SVGs?
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  588. # [23:31] <SamB> JonathanNeal: anyway, presumably using same-domain .svg files to set the different colors would at least help for the other browsers?
  589. # [23:32] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins: yes, sometimes I am using svgs like folks use font icons. I wondered if someone had come from the other approach of replacing PNGs and using <img src="path/to/image.svg"> and I thought we could talk about how and why we used either. I just wanted to learn, and evaluate which method is best in certain circumstances.
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  593. # [23:34] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Okay, now I understand what you're doing.
  594. # [23:34] <TabAtkins> What you want is SVG Parameters, which are a way to set custom properties on an external SVG document via query params.
  595. # [23:35] <TabAtkins> Which... doesn't exist yet.
  596. # [23:35] <SamB> So, exactly to what extent does the SVG spec not support CORS? I mean, are there just some little changes needed, or are they somehow opposed to it? Is there some political problem preventing them from referring to the relevant algorithms?
  597. # [23:35] <TabAtkins> But when it does, you'll have what you want.
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  599. # [23:35] <SamB> TabAtkins: so helpful ...
  600. # [23:35] <TabAtkins> SamB: Nah, just a matter of putting in the work. krit was working with annevk recently about it.
  601. # [23:36] <SamB> I guess it's not as trivial as I would have expected then
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  607. # [23:39] <moorsiek> hey, guys!
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  609. # [23:42] <moorsiek> Anybody knows the origins of the 16px font-size in browsers? I've dug many-many sites, specs, etc., but couldnt find when (or why) 16px became some sort of defacto standard. =|
  610. # [23:43] <JonathanNeal> moorsiek: I researched this once.
  611. # [23:43] <JonathanNeal> First, it’s because 16px is 12pt.
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  616. # [23:47] <TabAtkins> Yup, 16px=12pt, the default in word processors and such.
  617. # [23:48] <TabAtkins> It's just a pretty standard size.
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  619. # [23:54] <moorsiek> Okay, I see. Thank you, guys! So it appears that the www has inherited this size from the other field :)
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The end :)