/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-06-25 / end

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  77. # [03:55] <roc> Anyone know why <img style="position:absolute; background-color:blue; left:10%; top:10%; right:10%; bottom:10%"> gives a 0x0 size of the <img> element in Chrome? This seems like an extremely basic bug
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  79. # [03:57] * roc wonders if that's actually correct
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  81. # [03:59] <roc> looks like it is!
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  87. # [04:30] <Hixie> as far as i can tell according to http://www.w3.org/2013/09/normative-references, the w3c's policy is that the w3c's own specs aren't good enough to be normatively referenced :-)
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  92. # [04:38] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I think that doc's not been updated in a while but if you have suggestions I think plh would genuinely be interested
  93. # [04:38] <MikeSmith> the thing is that plh has a stronger interest than most anybody else in seeing the W3C have a saner policy for normative references
  94. # [04:39] <MikeSmith> since he's the one that's responsible for trying to get most of the specs through the W3C process
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  96. # [04:39] <MikeSmith> specs for the web platform at least
  97. # [04:40] <MikeSmith> and the main thing that blocks many of the specs progressing right now is not any technical issues but instead this references problem
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  100. # [04:43] <SamB> is that blocked on a patent policy?
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  102. # [04:45] <Hixie> MikeSmith: that doc is all about "stable references" and (indirectly through a reference it itself has) "due process" and "broad consensus" and so on
  103. # [04:45] <Hixie> MikeSmith: a variety of things which the w3c doesn't actually do, and which are in any case not good ways to design technologies
  104. # [04:46] <Hixie> MikeSmith: there should really be very few concerns when referencing another spec. Prime amongst them: "Is the document being actively maintained?" and "Does the document accurately describe what implementations must do to obtain interoperability with deployed content?"
  105. # [04:46] <MikeSmith> I guess I filter out those parts. I'm more interested in tryin to make the actual requirements in there reflect what's important
  106. # [04:46] <SamB> process is probably a good idea for GRs and CTTE decisions; other than that I dunno ...
  107. # [04:46] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah, like that
  108. # [04:47] <MikeSmith> Hixie: it should have that kind of wording
  109. # [04:47] <SamB> Hixie: would it be a big issue if some spec were frozen?
  110. # [04:47] <Hixie> SamB: you mean like on the TR/ page? yeah...
  111. # [04:47] <SamB> like, I dunno, pretend the GIF spec actually specified everything important 20 years ago
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  113. # [04:49] <Hixie> SamB: it'd still need to be updated over the years to track changes in frame length clamping, e.g.
  114. # [04:49] <SamB> hmm
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  119. # [04:51] <MikeSmith> Hixie: the thing is, as I think you know, we don't really have a binding policy on this. Or really, the policy is, the Director decides whether something can transition or not, and if you can make a convincing case to the director for some individual spec, the director OKs it
  120. # [04:51] <MikeSmith> Hixie: but the director responds to reason and sound arguments, and things like "Is the document being actively maintained?"
  121. # [04:51] <MikeSmith> ... are sound
  122. # [04:51] <MikeSmith> and I don't think some of those things have been well-articulated by anybody to the director so far
  123. # [04:51] <MikeSmith> and "Does the document accurately describe what implementations must do to obtain interoperability with deployed content?" too
  124. # [04:51] <Hixie> "the director decides" is what people say is the worst part of the whatwg
  125. # [04:52] <SamB> I didn't know TimBL was at the WHATWG
  126. # [04:52] <Hixie> different director in the whatwg's case
  127. # [04:52] <MikeSmith> WGs should not be allowed to reference "stable" specs that don't match implementation realities -- unless the reference is to say, We're violating the following parts of this out-of-date spec
  128. # [04:52] <Hixie> (different director per spec, even)
  129. # [04:52] <SamB> I thought they were called editors
  130. # [04:53] <Hixie> a rose by any other name...
  131. # [04:53] <SamB> would be just as prickly?
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  137. # [05:08] <MikeSmith> hayato: I don't find Kenji on IRC but been wanting to ask what the plans are for his open PRs at https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pulls/KenjiBaheux
  138. # [05:08] <MikeSmith> hayato: those have all mostly been sitting open with no activity for months and have kinda gone stale at this point
  139. # [05:09] <hayato> MikeSmith: These PRs are waiting for Kenji's response?
  140. # [05:09] <hayato> MikeSmith: Let me take a look
  141. # [05:09] <MikeSmith> yeah I think they're waiting on Kenji
  142. # [05:10] * MikeSmith looks too to confirm
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  219. # [09:07] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: the mq ref bug seems like make work. If you think it is urgent ask hixie to prioritize it
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  251. # [10:16] <annevk> I like how 1386 mocks 386 a bit
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  272. # [11:46] <Ms2ger> So who thought setting up a public-editing-tf mailing list was a good idea?
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  275. # [11:49] <darobin> Ms2ger: pretty much everyone involved in the editing discussion
  276. # [11:50] <darobin> and, judging by the number of people who wrote to me saying "thanks for removing that incomprehensible discussion from WebApps", quite a few WebApps people too :)
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  284. # [11:59] <Ms2ger> Yeah, defining things in silos always works out well
  285. # [12:00] <Ms2ger> Good that I wasn't hoping for that to go anywhere
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  291. # [12:05] <roc> Ms2ger: surely you're too young to be this bitter
  292. # [12:06] <Ms2ger> Standards work ages one quickly
  293. # [12:07] <roc> hmm, how old does that make me?
  294. # [12:07] <Ms2ger> being-cited-in-textbooks-old :)
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  298. # [12:23] * MikeSmith dials down the Bitterness setting on the Ms2ger bot, dials up the Smoothness
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  328. # [13:41] <tobie> Domenic: #popcorn
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  332. # [13:50] <annevk> tobie: what did he do?
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  334. # [13:51] <tobie> annevk: he reference the WebIDL thread above. :)
  335. # [13:51] <tobie> *referenced
  336. # [13:51] <annevk> ah
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  342. # [14:05] <annevk> So with Symbols we could make a lot of things extensible
  343. # [14:06] <annevk> E.g. send() and fetch() both take a thing of sorts and extract bytes and a MIME type out of it (and maybe an encoding)
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  345. # [14:06] <annevk> If we defined @@fetchExtract or some such that returns an object with the relevant information, that would totally work
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  363. # [15:37] <smaug____> does the spec say something about image documents
  364. # [15:37] <smaug____> I mean, what kind of content the document should have, if just an image is loaded to a browsing context ?
  365. # [15:37] <smaug____> (I think it did, but can't find it now)
  366. # [15:38] <annevk> smaug____: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/history.html#read-media
  367. # [15:39] <smaug____> thanks
  368. # [15:39] <smaug____> (history.html o_O)
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  370. # [15:39] <annevk> smaug____: artefact of splitting
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  384. # [16:17] <zewt> help, working in a new codebase and these guys use hard tabs, so the code is all randomly unformatted and unreadable
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  394. # [16:38] <annevk> I wonder who is implementing networking in Servo
  395. # [16:38] <annevk> And whether they are making use of http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTTP and such
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  397. # [16:41] <SimonSapin> annevk: we (Servo) use rust-http, which is built mostly by Chris Morgan. I don’t know what specs it’s based on.
  398. # [16:42] <SimonSapin> annevk: also, how does that wiki page relate to the "httpbis" RFCs? https://www.mnot.net/blog/2014/06/07/rfc2616_is_dead
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  400. # [16:43] <annevk> SimonSapin: I believe most of it is still accurate, unless the feedback was addressed
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  415. # [17:36] <Domenic> annevk: I am indeed confused @_@
  416. # [17:36] <Domenic> what does asFormData() work on, if not application/x-www-form-urlencoded?
  417. # [17:36] <Domenic> I guess multipart/form-data...
  418. # [17:36] <Domenic> Thus option 1) is about making it work on both
  419. # [17:37] <Domenic> whereas asURLSearchParams(), if it were to exist, would work only on application/x-www-form-urlencoded
  420. # [17:37] <annevk> Yes, multipart as FormData handles files
  421. # [17:38] <Domenic> OK. I think I finally understand the OP now. So option 1) is having only asFormData(), but having it work on both of those two formats
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  434. # [17:53] <annevk> Domenic: stuffing .loaded and .total on some stream concept actually makes a lot of sense
  435. # [17:54] <annevk> Domenic: going to prototype that in English
  436. # [17:54] <Domenic> For very few streams do you know the size ahead of time
  437. # [17:55] <Domenic> And .loaded doesn't make much sense without the ability to know when it changes, at which point you're probably just consuming the stream anyway.
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  440. # [17:56] <annevk> Observing I guess
  441. # [17:56] <annevk> Anyway, for fetch streams you know it surprisingly often
  442. # [17:56] <Domenic> Yeah, passive observation is one thing
  443. # [17:57] <Domenic> not sure you need a .contentLength to alias .headers.get('contentLength') though
  444. # [17:57] <annevk> get('content-length')
  445. # [17:59] <Domenic> right
  446. # [18:00] <annevk> Yeah I guess might refactor it later or some such
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  476. # [18:54] <Domenic> This seems bad http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/geometry/#DOMRectList
  477. # [18:55] <Domenic> annevk ^
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  479. # [18:56] <annevk> Domenic: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26200
  480. # [18:56] <Domenic> I was just about to email public-fx; guess that wil ldo.
  481. # [18:56] <Domenic> Will comment on blink-dev
  482. # [18:57] <Domenic> I wonder if I should switch to using my @google.com email...
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  487. # [19:01] <annevk> Domenic: if you plan on never leaving Google
  488. # [19:02] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  489. # [19:03] <Domenic> yeah :-/
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  492. # [19:03] <Domenic> Still need to switch to d@domenic.me, but that's going to be so much work.
  493. # [19:06] <Domenic> annevk "FYI all these interfaces landed in Firefox and are available in the nightly builds"
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  495. # [19:06] <Domenic> how did we let these slip by...
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  497. # [19:08] <annevk> Domenic: happened March 18
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  499. # [19:09] <caitp> most of the people I work with are only using their corporate accounts for accessing internal stuff, maybe you don't need it for public mailing lists?
  500. # [19:09] <annevk> Domenic: I think I didn't pay attention because I thought it was already discussed earlier on
  501. # [19:09] <Domenic> Can you pick up the torch to nuke DOMRectList in Firefox?
  502. # [19:09] <annevk> Domenic: as for changing emails, I found it surprisingly easy, just make sure you get both in the same inbox while transitioning
  503. # [19:10] <annevk> Domenic: I don't even know what DOMRectList is for
  504. # [19:10] <annevk> Domenic: if it's getClientRects() it might be needed
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  506. # [19:10] <Domenic> ah.
  507. # [19:11] <Domenic> trying to download FF nightly to find out
  508. # [19:12] <Domenic> you can't run nightly and stable at the same time?? O_O
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  510. # [19:13] <annevk> Just run Nightly all the time :-)
  511. # [19:13] <annevk> I think the only stable browser I have is Safari because it came with the OS...
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  514. # [19:14] <annevk> Domenic: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26103
  515. # [19:15] <annevk> Domenic: that's effectively your request
  516. # [19:15] <Domenic> Ah yeah it's getClientRects(), sucky
  517. # [19:15] <annevk> Domenic: I don't think I'm getting the idea through to Hixie
  518. # [19:15] <annevk> That specification should call that out somehow, that it's legacy
  519. # [19:15] <Domenic> would be best to name it LegacyGetClientRectsReturnValueType
  520. # [19:15] <Domenic> and make it [NoInterfaceObject]
  521. # [19:16] <Domenic> yeah I should probably chime in on that bug
  522. # [19:16] <annevk> And add Symbol.iterator
  523. # [19:16] <annevk> Symbol.iterator all the things
  524. # [19:16] <Domenic> hmm Chrome has ClientRectList, also exposed globally
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  526. # [19:18] <annevk> That was the old name
  527. # [19:19] <annevk> It seems the CSS WG obsession to split all the specs has happened here
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  529. # [19:20] <annevk> Oh man, once I'm done with this change in Fetch I've fixed several SUPER HARD BUGS
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  531. # [19:24] <annevk> krit: a getter does not an array make
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  533. # [19:26] <krit> annevk: beside that it is not of type Array and has not the usual methods of Array it does exactly what authors need to do with it
  534. # [19:26] <krit> annevk: DOMRectList is definitely not intended to be modified
  535. # [19:26] <krit> annevk: at least not by the user
  536. # [19:27] <krit> annevk: you can modify the elements of it though
  537. # [19:27] <annevk> No, you can't map, reduce, etc.
  538. # [19:27] <annevk> And DOMRectList is a snapshot, so it doesn't matter if it's modified
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  541. # [19:29] <krit> annevk: who says that it is a snapshot?
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  543. # [19:31] <annevk> krit: the spec could be clearer, but I sure hope that it's not live
  544. # [19:31] <annevk> (if it is, the spec needs to be clearer)
  545. # [19:31] <annevk> (can't just return an empty list in that case)
  546. # [19:32] <krit> annevk: it doesn’t because it does not specify the use case
  547. # [19:32] <annevk> ?
  548. # [19:34] <krit> annevk: it is up to the interface thats uses DOMRectList to define if the user can update the elements and it will do something in the backend or if it returns a snapshot
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  550. # [19:35] <annevk> 1) DOMRectList should never be used again
  551. # [19:35] <Domenic> That is not how JavaScript works...
  552. # [19:35] <annevk> 2) The usage it has suggests it's only used as static and therefore we might be able to get rid of it
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  559. # [19:45] <SamB__> Domenic: what's not how JavaScript works? "it is up to the interface [...]"?
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  562. # [19:50] <Domenic> Yes
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  571. # [20:18] <caitp> what's going on with the traceur repl arv_ =( seems to be broken today
  572. # [20:19] <arv_> caitp: Let me take a look
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  579. # [20:23] <arv_> caitp: Fixed
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  588. # [20:32] <caitp> thanks
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  626. # [21:37] <TabAtkins> roc: Looks like the formula is that the width calculation yields 0x0 intrinsic size (because there's no src there), then you use 'left' and that width to position it, ignoring 'right' due to overconstraint? (And same with top/height.)
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  641. # [22:09] <annevk> TabAtkins: so how do I know email to www-style is tracked?
  642. # [22:09] <TabAtkins> Editor deals with it? (We are bad at giving tracking feedback.)
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  646. # [22:16] <annevk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26134 :-)
  647. # [22:16] * annevk is not feeling it
  648. # [22:17] <annevk> TabAtkins: that requires tracking on my part
  649. # [22:24] <montecfel> Is it intended behavior for custom .woff fonts in CSS/Canvas to be drawn with the coordinate system being in the bottom-left rather than top-left?
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  651. # [22:25] <TabAtkins> montecfel: Example?
  652. # [22:25] <TabAtkins> I mean, do other font types draw differently somehow?
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  656. # [22:29] <montecfel> TabAtkins: Well, I don't know. I just know that the one I have does.
  657. # [22:29] <montecfel> And it happens to be a .woff.
  658. # [22:30] <montecfel> And AFAIK, .woff is the only format to use these days.
  659. # [22:30] <montecfel> It seems like they normally are counted with a top-left coordinate system.
  660. # [22:30] <TabAtkins> montecfel: Okay, your questions was misleadingly detailed. ^_^
  661. # [22:30] <SamB> montecfel: I believe fonts normally orient their axes in this manner, yes
  662. # [22:30] <TabAtkins> I think text drawing is usually done by specifying the point that the baseline begins at. What do you mean by "in CSS"?
  663. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> I know SVG <text> anchors things bottom-left, and I think canvas text does too.
  664. # [22:31] <SamB> if you're talking about coordinates included in the font
  665. # [22:31] <SamB> where "bottom left" doesn't mean bottom left of the bounding box, of course, but merely the reference point, which is at the left of the boundingbox and on the baseline
  666. # [22:32] <Philip`> montecfel: You can change ctx.textBaseline for canvas text - the default baseline is at the bottom of the letters
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  668. # [22:34] <montecfel> Hmm...
  669. # [22:34] <montecfel> Well, I "load in" the .woff in a .css.
  670. # [22:34] <montecfel> But then I use it to draw inside a Canvas.
  671. # [22:34] <TabAtkins> Okay, and when you tell it to draw at, say, (10, 20), it puts the bottom-left of the text string at 10,20, and you're confused by that?
  672. # [22:35] <SamB> montecfel: sounds like you might want to look into .textBaseline
  673. # [22:35] <SamB> Philip`: that is a very unusual default
  674. # [22:35] <TabAtkins> SamB: ? Why is it unusual?
  675. # [22:35] <TabAtkins> That's the standard english baseline, shared by most writing systems.
  676. # [22:35] <SamB> well, what if I had, say, a j
  677. # [22:35] <SamB> oh, he was speaking loosely?
  678. # [22:35] <TabAtkins> He didn't mean "literally bottom".
  679. # [22:36] <SamB> ah
  680. # [22:36] <SamB> cool
  681. # [22:36] <SamB> I was worried for a moment
  682. # [22:36] <SamB> TabAtkins: sorry, I think I left my sanity at the door or something
  683. # [22:36] <TabAtkins> Heh.
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  686. # [22:41] <TabAtkins> montecfel: Still there, or did things solve themselves?
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  688. # [22:49] <montecfel> Problems never solve themselves for me.
  689. # [22:49] <montecfel> Back, though.
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  691. # [22:49] <montecfel> Hmm. That sounds like a property/directive that might come in handy indeed.
  692. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> Okay, so looking at my previous line to you, is that the part where you're confused?
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  694. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> Note that messing with baselines is probably more confusing than you realize.
  695. # [22:50] <montecfel> Well, I believe this is what is happening, yes.
  696. # [22:50] <montecfel> But this will be a thing I have to invest for the next project.
  697. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> Yeah, if you can figure out something that works, go for it.
  698. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> But the behavior you're seeing is very standard for direct text-drawing APIs. You're probably just dealing with confusion from CSS, where you never draw text directly, you position a box that *contains* text.
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  719. # [23:55] <Domenic> Hixie: given the brand-color kerfluffle, do you think updating the HTML spec to say something like "if your meta tag changes user agent behavior, it needs to be in this spec" would be a good idea?
  720. # Session Close: Thu Jun 26 00:00:00 2014

The end :)