/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-07-21 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  154. # [11:50] <gsnedders> I feel like I'm missing something about DNSSEC, what exactly is signed by the root anchors? The results returned by the root servers?
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  157. # [11:59] <gsnedders> the lookup includes an RRSIG record, okay
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  195. # [14:27] <gsnedders> GPHemsley: In what sense is PDF scripted but not PostScript (in MIME Sniffing)? Does PDF allow access to things outside of the input and PostScript not?
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  201. # [14:34] <jgraham> gsnedders: Acrobat certainly allows javascript and seems to have external communication APIs
  202. # [14:37] <gsnedders> Right, I know PDF allows JS but wasn't sure if it allowed external communication. PS is itself Turing-complete so the only question is whether it allows external communication.
  203. # [14:38] <jgraham> Yeah
  204. # [14:38] <jgraham> So I guess it must theoretically be possible c.f. the HTTP server in pure postscript, but I don't know if that depends on specific extensions
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  208. # [14:42] <JakeA> Domenic: thinking about how to explain transactions in stores. I keep coming back to things like store.transaction(function{ /* all store operations in here will be transactional */ }).then(...)
  209. # [14:42] <JakeA> then throw up in my mouth
  210. # [14:43] <JakeA> anything in the DOM that does it better?
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  212. # [14:43] <tobie> keep calm and swallow it back.
  213. # [14:43] <jgraham> gsnedders: Postscript seems to have file IO, but not network IO except to the extent that you can make a correspondence between the two
  214. # [14:44] <gsnedders> jgraham: so has network IO on any POSIX system :P
  215. # [14:46] <jgraham> gsnedders: For example
  216. # [14:46] <gsnedders> GPHemsley: then PS should surely be considered a scriptable type in MIME Sniffing
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  228. # [15:07] <Domenic> JakeA: not that I can think of ... might be worth surveying the LevelDB APIs people have put on npm.
  229. # [15:07] <Domenic> JakeA: I am starting to feel like `store.transaction({ add: [...], remove: [...] })` would make sense?
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  231. # [15:08] <Domenic> Or I guess put: ..., delete: ... might be more accurate
  232. # [15:08] <JakeA> Domenic: That misses interleaving put & delete. Also, since put takes 2 args it looks uuuuuugly
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  234. # [15:09] <JakeA> store.transaction({ put: [[request, response], [request2, response2]] })
  235. # [15:09] <Domenic> JakeA: ugly seems OK for a low-level primitive
  236. # [15:12] <Domenic> I will ask the levelDB folks in #stackvm
  237. # [15:13] <JakeA> https://gist.github.com/jakearchibald/0700c1c622c994c2d335 is ugly but it allows interleaving delete & put
  238. # [15:14] <Domenic> JakeA: my main problem with such a thing is that it is a bit too magical. E.g. it looks like it's function scoped but if you do non-store things inside that function, or do anything async, then it's no longer part of the transaction.
  239. # [15:14] <Domenic> Very leaky abstraction
  240. # [15:14] <JakeA> fair
  241. # [15:14] <JakeA> especially when it came to transactions across multiple stores
  242. # [15:15] <JakeA> (which wouldn't work, but may appear if it did)
  243. # [15:16] <Domenic> JakeA: stackvm people suggest https://github.com/rvagg/node-levelup#batch_chained
  244. # [15:16] <Domenic> Very interesting
  245. # [15:17] <Domenic> Feels less like composing nice APIs out of low-level ugly ones, but is a pretty nice end result
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  248. # [15:22] <JakeA> That works for me
  249. # [15:22] <JakeA> Domenic: cheers!
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  252. # [15:29] <Domenic> :)
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  263. # [15:44] <Domenic> JakeA: Substack likes https://github.com/rvagg/node-levelup#dbbatcharray-options-callback-array-form more because it allows you to compose a transaction as an object
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  265. # [15:54] <JakeA> Domenic: uglier, but simpler. Less sugar is fine for this method
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  269. # [16:06] <tobie> chainable batch object lets you fail faster and more precisely, though (e.g. if you del(key, value))
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  271. # [16:11] <tobie> Domenic: unrelated: re-reading up on Promises today, bumped into wikipedia's definition of Promises where it claims the object given to the client is a future (not a promise). Any idea whether that's true, and if so, why the terminology was changed in JS from something correct to something not?
  272. # [16:12] <Ms2ger> What's "correct"? :)
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  276. # [16:16] <caitp-> does it really matter what you call it
  277. # [16:17] * caitp- is now known as caitp
  278. # [16:17] <tobie> caitp-: yeah, it's kind of useful if the same name describes the same pattern in different languages.
  279. # [16:18] <Domenic> JakeA: I think there are at least two promise lineages. Brb.
  280. # [16:19] <tobie> caitp: imagine if we had decided to call promises threads instead. :)
  281. # [16:20] <tobie> Domenic: that might explain it.
  282. # [16:20] <caitp> then we could be pretentious and explain the differences between javascript threads and OS threads to people
  283. # [16:20] <caitp> and be the life of the dinner party
  284. # [16:20] <tobie> Please don't invite me to your dinner parties.
  285. # [16:20] <caitp> :d
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  288. # [16:22] <tobie> Ms2ger: poor choice of words, admittedly, but does it obscure the gist of the question?
  289. # [16:22] <caitp> I'm not sure the audience of javascript has for the most part had much exposure to other languages implementing the same pattern but named Futures --- although dart might change that
  290. # [16:24] <tobie> that doesn't seem to be a very future proof argument.
  291. # [16:24] <tobie> Anyway, I'm disputing the naming choice. Just curious of its history and the rationale behind it.
  292. # [16:25] <tobie> * I'm NOT disputing
  293. # [16:25] * tobie go away, Freud.
  294. # [16:26] <caitp> well, they're already pretty widely used (jQuery.Deferred, etc etc etc) by web developers, and usually called Promises in web-land, so that might have something to do with it
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  296. # [16:31] <jwalden> roses by any other names
  297. # [16:32] <tobie> JakeA, Domenic: in case that got lost in the unrelated conversation one of the benefits of chainable batch object is it lets you fail faster and more precisely (e.g. if you del(key, value) you can error immediately).
  298. # [16:33] <jgraham> "roses" you say? I assume that you are thinking that they are marketed as providing great beauty, but in reality there's a lot of specialised knowledge needed to make them grow right, and even then you have to be careful of thorns? Sounds reasonable.
  299. # [16:34] <JakeA> Hmm, I'm not too worried about that, this is a very low level part of the API
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  309. # [17:03] <Domenic> JakeA: tobie: IIRC it's E -> Python, C#, F#, JavaScript; vs. Java -> Dart, Scala, others
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  313. # [17:08] <tobie> Domenic: sounds fun. Scramble them some more to find out which languages favor assert(expected, actual) and which ones prefer assert(actual, expected)
  314. # [17:08] <tobie> :/
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  377. # [19:22] <Hixie> anyone know anything about deletableBindings in the JS spec, 15.1.7 Runtime Semantics: ScriptEvaluation? jorendorff maybe?
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  379. # [19:23] <jorendorff> yeah, let me look
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  381. # [19:24] <jorendorff> Hixie: what step?
  382. # [19:24] <jorendorff> oh, the parameter
  383. # [19:25] <Hixie> yeah, the parameter
  384. # [19:25] <jorendorff> Hixie: It's legacy cruft, required for non-strict direct eval.
  385. # [19:25] <jorendorff> Hixie: Inside a JS function, if you do |eval("var x;")| then, bizarrely, the local variable x can be deleted using |delete x|
  386. # [19:25] <Hixie> so i always pass false when evaluating a <script>?
  387. # [19:25] <jorendorff> yes
  388. # [19:25] <Hixie> k, thanks
  389. # [19:28] <Domenic> Hixie: I know you were working on event loop integration a while ago. Where did that end up?
  390. # [19:28] <Hixie> got sidetracked by my work on my new pipeline, but i'm working on it again as we speak
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  392. # [19:28] <Hixie> first step is working out how HTML and ES should integrate in general for legacy <script> evaluation
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  394. # [19:29] <JakeA> Domenic: tobie: how about store.add(request) which resolves to a response, or store.add([request]) which resolves to an array of responses (one, in this case)
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  396. # [19:32] <Domenic> Hixie: nice. My big concern is that we normatively specify promises use microtasks
  397. # [19:32] <Domenic> JakeA: I hate overloading, but that is my only objection.
  398. # [19:32] <Domenic> JakeA: what does var r = new Request(); r[Symbol.iterator] = ...; store.add(r) do
  399. # [19:34] <Hixie> Domenic: yeah. unfortunately while doing this i discovered we had much bigger problems. Like, ES 9.5 and 9.5.1 aren't invoked at all for HTML yet.
  400. # [19:34] <JakeA> Domenic: reject, unless it provides requests or url strings
  401. # [19:34] <Domenic> JakeA: yes, the iterator would be an iterator of requests. BUT IT IS ALSO ITSELF A REQUEST!?!
  402. # [19:34] <Domenic> Hixie: ES6? I imagine because they only recently came into existence :P
  403. # [19:35] <Domenic> Hixie: the issue is that Firefox currently uses macrotasks and there's no spec we can point them to to say that they're doing it wrong
  404. # [19:36] <Hixie> Domenic: yeah, but there's no way to write the microtask spec until we have a foundation to write it on :-)
  405. # [19:36] <Ms2ger> Hixie, this would be a good time to remove references to not-JS-languages-in-<script> in the spec ;)
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  407. # [19:38] <Hixie> Ms2ger: i'll get right on that as soon as people stop trying to put non-JS-languages-in-<script>...
  408. # [19:38] <JakeA> Domenic: yep, it'll either treat it as one or the other.
  409. # [19:38] <Domenic> JakeA: and thus, why I hate overloading ;)
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  412. # [19:46] <JakeA> Domenic: yeah, but what if I overwrite querySelectorAll to return a random number?
  413. # [19:46] <JakeA> Domenic: crazy stuff will happen. Answer is, don't do that.
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  417. # [19:49] <Hixie> the ES spec really is written from the point of view of ES being the core of the world
  418. # [19:49] <Domenic> JakeA: don't overload your methods? Yes, I agree ;)
  419. # [19:49] <Hixie> as opposed to a library that the browser invokes
  420. # [19:50] <Domenic> Hixie: I don't *think* that was Allen's intention... he might be open to changing things
  421. # [19:51] <Hixie> e.g. NextTask is one task
  422. # [19:51] <Hixie> er, one algorithm
  423. # [19:51] <Hixie> called from within other ES algorithms
  424. # [19:51] <Hixie> instead of "InvokeTask" being the top of the ES "stack"
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  438. # [20:35] <Hixie> jorendorff, Domenic: this is what i have so far: http://www.hixie.ch/specs/js/loader
  439. # [20:35] <jorendorff> NextTask makes no sense
  440. # [20:37] <Hixie> in ES? or in my strawman above?
  441. # [20:37] <Hixie> i tried sending feedback about turning it inside out in the ES spec, but allen seemed unimpressed
  442. # [20:37] <Domenic> yeah :-/
  443. # [20:38] <jorendorff> Hixie: in ES. I don't know why Allen wrote it that way.
  444. # [20:38] <Domenic> JakeA: "permacache" haha
  445. # [20:38] <Hixie> jorendorff: ah. yeah. i agree. kinda just working with what i've got at this point.
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  450. # [20:54] <JakeA> Domenic: my favourite was "history", but that was down to the shitty 140 char explanation
  451. # [20:55] <Domenic> JakeA: permacache, just like fetchAndStore, seems nicely descriptive to me ;)
  452. # [20:55] <TabAtkins> tobie: What caitp said - the naming is actually remarkably inconsistent across various languages and implementations, as is the exposed API.
  453. # [20:55] <TabAtkins> Promise/Deferred/Future all describe roughly the same thing, depending on what language/library you're using.
  454. # [20:57] <Domenic> TabAtkins: or PromiseCapability X_x
  455. # [20:57] <TabAtkins> wikipedia notes that the terms are used somewhat interchangeably.
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  458. # [21:09] <TabAtkins> For whatever reason, the person who wrote that article settled on "Future" for JS's Promise, and "Promise" for JS's resolve/reject functions.
  459. # [21:12] <Domenic> Nothing can be as bad as Wikipedia's JavaScript article
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  461. # [21:23] <gsnedders> Domenic: that looks a heckuva lot better than it did when I last looked at it
  462. # [21:24] <Domenic> gsnedders: you're right! However this part is still horrid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaScript#Version_history
  463. # [21:24] <gsnedders> Domenic: totally
  464. # [21:25] <gsnedders> Domenic: I'm not saying it ain't bad, I'm saying it could be worse
  465. # [21:25] <Domenic> Yeah
  466. # [21:25] <Domenic> Before that was 1/3 of the article IIRC
  467. # [21:26] <Domenic> First we need to fix MDN to move all the Mozilla "JS 1.8" etc. stuff into a silo, away from the limelight
  468. # [21:26] <Domenic> Then we can fix wikipedia
  469. # [21:26] <Domenic> And by "we" I mean "probably not me"
  470. # [21:27] * wanderview_ is now known as wanderview
  471. # [21:29] <SamB> are you guys allowed to edit that stuff
  472. # [21:30] <Domenic> MDN certainly
  473. # [21:30] <SamB> I was referring to WP:COI
  474. # [21:30] <SamB> wrt the wikipedia article
  475. # [21:30] <Domenic> I don't even know what that means
  476. # [21:30] <gsnedders> SamB: sure, provided you act in a neutral manner
  477. # [21:31] <SamB> what, you guys aren't employed by JavaScript?
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  479. # [21:31] <gsnedders> SamB: WP:COI doesn't prohibit editing any article you have an interest in; it merely prevents you from acting in a self-interested manner
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  483. # [21:40] <SamB> clearly I have not actually read WP:COI in a while
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  492. # [22:00] <gsnedders> SamB: you've never been outright forbidden from it
  493. # [22:00] <gsnedders> SamB: I mean essentially it's just WP:NPOV
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  505. # [22:29] <Hixie> zcorpan: oh man, sorry, i totally forgot to do those PRs. Thanks for doing them.
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  525. # [22:59] <Hixie> TabAtkins: you around?
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  527. # [22:59] <TabAtkins> pong
  528. # [22:59] <Hixie> hey
  529. # [22:59] <Hixie> do you know if there's any chance of a display-box: newline? see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25503 for context
  530. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> We discussed it on the call but didn't get consensus, so I'mma work on it soonish.
  531. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> And I actually still have that bug open in my tabs here.
  532. # [23:00] <Hixie> what's the "nay" camp's opinion?
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  537. # [23:04] <TabAtkins> Specialty display types shouldn't be necessary, as we can just pattern-match on particular styles.
  538. # [23:05] <Hixie> interesting idea
  539. # [23:05] <Hixie> how many of the vendors were on that side?
  540. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> fantasai, mainly.
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  542. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> I'd need to review the minutes, though, because I'm biased heavily in the other camp.
  543. # [23:06] <Hixie> unfortunately there don't appear to be any minutes for that specific meeting
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  545. # [23:07] <Hixie> (25th of june, if i'm reading the mailing list entrails right)
  546. # [23:07] <Hixie> i checked both lists
  547. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jun/0398.html
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  549. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> You blind, bro?
  550. # [23:07] <Hixie> wow, how did i miss that
  551. # [23:08] <Hixie> oh, heh, it was the one after the last one i opened, before i'd found the agenda
  552. # [23:08] <Hixie> d'oh
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  554. # [23:10] <Hixie> looks like no implementors were on board with pattern matching particularly
  555. # [23:10] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's what I remembered, but didn't want to claim it until I'd read.
  556. # [23:10] <Hixie> btw the biggest problem with pattern matching / special case logic for <br> isn't the performance aspect, that can probably be done pretty efficiently
  557. # [23:11] <Hixie> the biggest problem is that because it's special-cased, you'll get special bugs.
  558. # [23:11] <TabAtkins> Yup, indeed.
  559. # [23:11] <TabAtkins> I don't like pattern-matching for that reason.
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  561. # [23:11] <Hixie> like, some new property is added, and it matches either way, and you end up with the wrong code path just for that specific combination of properties
  562. # [23:11] <Hixie> anyway
  563. # [23:11] <Hixie> ok
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  565. # [23:11] <Hixie> you any objection to my just speccing it in HTML?
  566. # [23:12] <TabAtkins> I'm going to put it in Display, so whatevs.
  567. # [23:12] <Hixie> oh ok, cool
  568. # [23:12] <TabAtkins> Want me to just put it in now, and have you ref it as unstable?
  569. # [23:12] <Hixie> no rush.
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  572. # [23:12] <Hixie> i'll roll this one to the bottom of my pile and will get back to you in a few weeks.
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  583. # [23:47] <TabAtkins> Hixie: What element autolink in your preprocessor?
  584. # [23:48] <TabAtkins> Looks like <code> does?
  585. # [23:48] <Hixie> code, span, var, and i.
  586. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> kk. Confused why all the <var>s in the spec *lost* their data-x attrs, then.
  587. # [23:49] <Hixie> var and i are special in that unles they have a data-x, they won't cross-ref
  588. # [23:49] <Hixie> i really should probably change from <span> to <a>
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  590. # [23:52] <Hixie> TabAtkins: since it seems to be just us working today... any news on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24991 ?
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  592. # [23:53] <TabAtkins> In what way? Was I supposed to do something?
  593. # [23:54] <Hixie> apparently you talked about it in a telecon http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014May/0024.html
  594. # [23:54] <Hixie> i guess http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014May/0056.html says it's in
  595. # [23:54] <Hixie> so i should just use it?
  596. # [23:55] <Hixie> "bert: So let's say I want to use JS" wow
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  598. # [23:56] <jgraham> Wow that he might want to use JS, or wow that that was a line from a telecon in 2014?
  599. # [23:56] <Hixie> more the former
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  602. # Session Close: Tue Jul 22 00:00:00 2014

The end :)