/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-08-04 / end

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  104. # [06:26] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: time for you to get back to writing some w3cmemes
  105. # [06:26] <zcorpan> yeah man
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  108. # [06:31] <zewt> well, that's awesome: system crashed and firefox completely lost my session
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  110. # [06:35] <zewt> wow, it just uses a text file with json, not sqlite
  111. # [06:36] <SamB> what, you wanted an sqlite DB with JSON?
  112. # [06:36] <zewt> better than a raw file for important user data
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  123. # [06:50] <roc> performance of JSON is much better
  124. # [06:50] <roc> and I suspect robustness is too
  125. # [06:50] <roc> overall
  126. # [06:50] <SamB> well, robustness would be more better either way if FF told you when the disk was full ;-P
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  130. # [07:02] <zewt> json has zero robustness since it's a text format, not a data storage system
  131. # [07:03] <zewt> sqlite's journalling would probably have prevented me ending up with a nulled out session and having to dig out an old backup
  132. # [07:13] <SamB> zewt: yes, but it'd probably be missing random tabs or pages or something
  133. # [07:13] <SamB> depending on the cause of the problem
  134. # [07:16] <zewt> ... no, it wouldn't ...
  135. # [07:17] <SamB> well if you ran out of storage it likely would
  136. # [07:17] <SamB> at least that's what happens to my history
  137. # [07:17] <zewt> if you ran out of storage sqlite would throw an error and nothing would be changed
  138. # [07:18] <zewt> but they're just doing ad hoc writing to a file so who knows what happens
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  188. # [09:25] <JakeA> Domenic: If I wanted to pipe a response into a cache and the browser (for rendering), how can I do that without the whole response ending up in memory?
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  190. # [09:25] <Domenic> JakeA: in that case if you tee and then pipe both ends of the tee into places immediately, the data will just flow through
  191. # [09:25] <JakeA> Domenic: cool, that's what I thought
  192. # [09:25] <Domenic> JakeA: the problematic case is teeing and then piping only one end
  193. # [09:26] <Domenic> sorry I still haven't had time to process your reply
  194. # [09:26] <Domenic> Working on a talk I'll be giving in ... 7 hours? :P
  195. # [09:26] <JakeA> NOT ACCEPTABLE
  196. # [09:26] <JakeA> Domenic: no worries! I'm only just replying to that thread myself
  197. # [09:26] <JakeA> Good luck with the talk
  198. # [09:26] <Domenic> :) thanks
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  203. # [09:36] <Domenic> JakeA: what do you mean by a transaction story that works for both IDB and fetchstore
  204. # [09:36] <Domenic> JakeA: my point was that .batch() is a better primitive to build anything more complicated on top of. For *both* APIs
  205. # [09:37] <Domenic> JakeA: the only thing I could think of that works for both would be some kind of strange global variable that is "in a transaction", that IDB and fetchstore both consult
  206. # [09:37] <JakeA> Domenic: slightlyoff was talking about a way to have the same story for both, rather than something cache specific. Maybe even something that can be a single transaction across both
  207. # [09:37] <Domenic> Bleh, I will try taking things up with him then
  208. # [09:38] <JakeA> Yeah, I like .batch, but happy to keep it as an algorithm for the sake of getting cache out of the door
  209. # [09:38] <Domenic> That is totally fair
  210. # [09:38] <Domenic> But I want to convince him that it is the correct primitive :)
  211. # [09:38] <JakeA> Domenic: Go for it :D
  212. # [09:38] <Domenic> Or hear what his thoughts are for something else, if there are concrete ideas
  213. # [09:39] <JakeA> Domenic: Just to confirm, if the active consumer of a stream errors/dies, something consuming the tee of the original stream is unaffected right?
  214. # [09:39] <Domenic> JakeA: right
  215. # [09:39] <JakeA> cool
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  221. # [09:46] <JakeA> Domenic: Thinking of adding response.clone() and request.clone() rather than doing any implicit teeing. How does that sound?
  222. # [09:46] <Domenic> JakeA: I think I like it, but kind of want to read through the thread first
  223. # [09:46] <JakeA> No worries, don't worry about it until after your talk
  224. # [09:46] <Domenic> Seems related to "structured cloning of streams" discussion I kinda-started a while ago
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  229. # [10:09] <annevk> Why are we changing the design of responses and requests?
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  232. # [10:13] <JakeA> annevk: looking for ways to allow a response to have multiple consumers without adding magic
  233. # [10:13] <JakeA> (or indeed, a request)
  234. # [10:15] <JakeA> Domenic: if I tee a stream, can I read it without the original stream being read? If a teed (or original) stream isn't read, and data builds up in memory, what's expected to happen when memory runs out? All active streams fail?
  235. # [10:15] * xiinotulp is now known as plutoniix
  236. # [10:16] <JakeA> annevk: The use cases are, read a response as two types, send a response to cache & browser, read a request's body before deciding whether to fetch it or not
  237. # [10:17] <annevk> note that there is some tee'ing going on already per algorithms in Fetch
  238. # [10:17] <annevk> e.g. because of redirects a request can be tee'd several times
  239. # [10:18] <JakeA> good point
  240. # [10:18] <annevk> and at least once
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  242. # [10:20] <JakeA> annevk: So .clone() would give that to the user. We'll be able to explain it in terms of new Response & a teed stream, but I think we need it sooner than streams
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  245. # [10:21] <annevk> JakeA: why .clone() and not structured clone?
  246. # [10:21] <annevk> we want structured clones
  247. # [10:21] <annevk> and maybe structured clones need an API
  248. # [10:21] <JakeA> annevk: What's the API… aha
  249. # [10:23] <JakeA> annevk: so there isn't a way to structured-clone with script (aside from going back & forth between a dedicated worker I suppose)
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  251. # [10:23] <JakeA> annevk: In fact, is there a sync way to create a structured clone?
  252. # [10:23] <annevk> you can always do window.postMessage
  253. # [10:23] <annevk> I don't think there's a synchronous API at this point
  254. # [10:23] <annevk> although there's a couple of spec algorithms that do it
  255. # [10:25] <JakeA> annevk: so, can we have .clone() that returns a structured clone, or are you thinking more window.createStructuredClone(obj);
  256. # [10:26] <annevk> the latter, something TC39-designed
  257. # [10:26] <annevk> e.g. you can clone `{ data: obj }` too
  258. # [10:26] * JakeA plays Oh Fortuna
  259. # [10:27] <annevk> there's several open issues on this
  260. # [10:28] <annevk> including a big red note in Fetch
  261. # [10:28] <JakeA> annevk: You mean https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/313?
  262. # [10:29] <Domenic> It would be good if structure clone were async
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  264. # [10:30] <Domenic> I can't remember why off the top of my head but IIRC it enabled some scenarios
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  266. # [10:31] <Domenic> JakeA: the way to think of teeing is you have created two new streams which are hooked up to the original stream. So when you read from one of the new streams, it pulls from the original stream into both new streams. The one you are reading from then gets the data handed to the user, but the other one just gets the data sitting there in the queue.
  267. # [10:31] <Domenic> If memory runs out ... usual platform OOM behavior, I suppose? Which is pretty undefined IIRC?
  268. # [10:32] <annevk> JakeA: yup
  269. # [10:32] <annevk> OOM is undefined
  270. # [10:32] <annevk> There was a thread recently about defining stack limits
  271. # [10:33] <Domenic> You could also imagine the platform swapping out all the data to disk and letting you read it later... the details are hidden enough that this is possible. I wouldn't want to write such a tee-with-disk-intermediating myself, but it could be done.
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  273. # [10:33] <Domenic> You'd want to avoid that if possible though. Ideally you want .read() to translate straight into a syscall, and the more layers of teeing and caching you add in between, the less likely that is.
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  275. # [10:34] <JakeA> Domenic: in your example there, were you thinking of two calls to tee? Otherwise I'm not sure where the *two* new streams come from
  276. # [10:35] <Domenic> JakeA: a tee is meant to create two new streams from the original, thus the "T" shape
  277. # [10:35] <Domenic> or "Y" shape
  278. # [10:35] <Domenic> one stream goes in, gets consumed, two unconsumed streams come out
  279. # [10:35] <Domenic> well, "consumed" isn't quite right, we don't wait for you to read to the end
  280. # [10:36] <JakeA> Got it
  281. # [10:36] <JakeA> I guess that makes request.clone() either weird or all the more useful. It'd have to replace its own stream with one part of the tee
  282. # [10:37] <JakeA> starting to understand the issues around structured cloning and streams
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  284. # [10:38] <Domenic> hmm
  285. # [10:38] <annevk> Domenic: is there an explanation somewhere of why an IO stream needs to have both readable and writeable parts?
  286. # [10:39] <annevk> Domenic: e.g. why it can't be more like the simplest asynchronous iterable object you can imagine (that has both push and async read)
  287. # [10:39] <Domenic> annevk: not sure exactly what you mean... a stream is either readable (someone else controls data production) or writable (someone else controls consumption of data you put in it)
  288. # [10:39] <annevk> Domenic: why can't it be more like a promise, where that can be the case, but you can also control both ends
  289. # [10:40] <Domenic> annevk: a readable stream is much like a promise. (And a writable stream, in reverse.) But the creator controls one end, and does not give the ability to others via the public API
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  291. # [10:41] <Domenic> a readable stream is only readable, although its creator says how to get the data that consumers read from it
  292. # [10:41] <Domenic> you could imagine a stream API that leaves both ends open for people to shove data through, but that has some ergonomic issues:
  293. # [10:42] <Domenic> instead of writing e.g. "when someone writes data to me, put it in the file descriptor," you have to continually be reading from the output end, and then putting the results of what you read into the file descriptor
  294. # [10:43] <annevk> I guess it's needed for perf, but it seems weird that we're focused that much on current low-level implementation details, rather than what is the best abstraction for what we want.
  295. # [10:44] <Domenic> It's not really perf, it's ergonomics
  296. # [10:45] <annevk> If read returns a promise, you don't have to continuously read for instance
  297. # [10:45] <Domenic> You have to recurse at the very least
  298. # [10:45] <Domenic> But hmm
  299. # [10:45] <annevk> It would just fulfill with the next chunk or error
  300. # [10:46] <Domenic> I am starting to do perf benchmarks and it is possible promise-returning read() might make a comeback if those show non-failure
  301. # [10:46] <annevk> Yes, and with recursion you get nice ergonomics. Especially with synchronous notation
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  303. # [10:47] <annevk> Sounds good
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  306. # [10:50] <JakeA> Domenic: if I tee a stream but don't read either of the tees, is the original stream consumed or does it wait for the first read on one of the tees?
  307. # [10:51] <Domenic> JakeA: it waits. Although trying to read from it would race with the tee mechanism, which is also trying to read from it
  308. # [10:51] <JakeA> yeah, was just trying to work out when it starts filling memory. Got it.
  309. # [10:52] <Domenic> I am looking forward to thinking harder about how to implement clone() ... clearly it is not quite the same as teeing
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  313. # [11:03] <JakeA> Domenic: can it be explained with a tee and taking one part of the tee for itself?
  314. # [11:13] <Domenic> JakeA: seems weird. maybe possible, but i think i'd use something slightly different than a tee...
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  317. # [11:25] <JakeA> annevk: In https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/398, what's the difference between "use a local file if available" and "conditional request", does the former not care about freshness?
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  327. # [11:53] <annevk> JakeA: maybe, not sure; I'm not that familiar with cache implementations and what options they have
  328. # [11:54] <annevk> JakeA: I can imagine if you're offline you might decide to not care about freshness
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  331. # [11:56] <Ms2ger> annevk, r? https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1131
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  333. # [11:56] <JakeA> annevk: fair enough, we do that in Chrome (behind a flag, I think)
  334. # [11:59] <annevk> Ms2ger: should I merge it after I reviewed it?
  335. # [11:59] <Ms2ger> Either way
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  337. # [12:00] <annevk> Ms2ger: bit surprised the critic bot didn't post anything back
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  360. # [12:52] <JakeA> annevk: thought… do we need to make fetch('//other-origin/whatever', {mode: 'no-cors'}) revalidate against the server? Else, if I get a response back, and navigator.offLine == true, we're exposing the user's history
  361. # [12:53] <JakeA> annevk: more so if the developer can go to the cache despite the cached entry being stale
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  364. # [13:01] <annevk> JakeA: can't you probe that already with <img>?
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  366. # [13:02] <annevk> JakeA: agreed that with the cache settings stuff, if we add that for v1, we'll need to carefully consider privacy
  367. # [13:02] <JakeA> annevk: for images, yeah. Scripts too I guess.
  368. # [13:02] <JakeA> annevk: hmm, maybe anything with iframes
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  372. # [13:05] <tobie> Boy, SW issue 372 is now officially all over the place.
  373. # [13:05] <JakeA> yeah, ok, iframes too. Not a new problem then.
  374. # [13:06] <JakeA> tobie: is it? Felt like it was zoning in.
  375. # [13:08] <tobie> JakeA: well, you need to be familiar with Stream API status, teeing, stream cloning, advantages of async structured cloning over sync one, future tc39 plans for structured cloning, transactional requests in indexedDB, etc.
  376. # [13:10] <tobie> Did I mention request had a stream too? How that interact at the SW level just blew my mind.
  377. # [13:11] <JakeA> when you submit a form (with a mixture of files and form fields) that's a body stream that's sent to the server
  378. # [13:11] <tobie> Of course. Makes complete sense. It's just. Woah.
  379. # [13:11] <JakeA> yeah, it goes all the way down
  380. # [13:17] <tobie> JakeA: why does cache.addAll deplete a request's body stream? Do we cache non GET requests or does fetch send body of GET requests?
  381. # [13:18] <tobie> (asking for a friend)
  382. # [13:18] <tobie> ;)
  383. # [13:18] <JakeA> tobie: bloody good point. No, it rejects with non-GET requests, so it's a non-issue
  384. # [13:20] <JakeA> updated
  385. # [13:20] <tobie> JakeA: how are GET requests with a body handled though?
  386. # [13:20] <tobie> Wasn't it you writing recently about how these were a thing?
  387. # [13:22] <JakeA> not that I know of. annevk, should we throw if a GET request is constructed with a body?
  388. # [13:22] <annevk> Domenic: so btw, the read-write distinction for streams is problematic for Request and potentially Response objects btw
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  390. # [13:23] <annevk> Domenic: nobody had a good answer there so far and we plan on shipping this end of Q3...
  391. # [13:23] <annevk> JakeA: hmm, might not be handled specifically at the moment
  392. # [13:23] <annevk> JakeA: XMLHttpRequest ignores the body for GET/HEAD
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  418. # [14:17] <JakeA> annevk: if we're not throwing for headers, we shouldn't throw for body I guess
  419. # [14:18] <annevk> I guess I should try to handle this in Fetch itself so we don't have to reinvent it for each API
  420. # [14:18] <JakeA> agreed
  421. # [14:19] <annevk> JakeA: there's also https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/120 I just noticed
  422. # [14:19] <annevk> JakeA: maybe willchan & co should look at that
  423. # [14:19] <JakeA> annevk: Yeah, I don't have strong feelings there
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  429. # [14:41] <annevk> Declares us-ascii, expects windows-1252; nice find zcorpan! http://futbolenlatele.com/
  430. # [14:41] <zcorpan> np
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  432. # [14:42] <zcorpan> found it while eating my lunch :-)
  433. # [14:45] <zcorpan> "there are no pages doing X" is basically always false on the web
  434. # [14:46] * jgraham wonders if that will fit in the topic :)
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  436. # [14:47] <annevk> fits in a tweet
  437. # [14:48] <zcorpan> Hixie: &ndash; works with the new pipeline i take it?
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  467. # [16:06] <zcorpan> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9785#c10 - no pages doing X for X = moznofilter :-)
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  472. # [16:26] <zcorpan> Hixie: ok if i close srcset bugs that are fixed by <picture>?
  473. # [16:27] <annevk> zcorpan: at least some time ago it was fine to close bugs given solid rationale
  474. # [16:40] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: do you have opinions on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25552 ?
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  487. # [17:14] <hemanth> meow, Object.keys returns an arrayLike object or an array ?
  488. # [17:14] <hemanth> specs says array
  489. # [17:14] <hemanth> but...
  490. # [17:14] <hemanth> >> obj = {x:1,y:2}; for (k in Object.keys(obj)) {console.log(k)}
  491. # [17:14] <hemanth> gives '0', '1'
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  493. # [17:15] <hemanth> indices
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  495. # [17:17] <caitp> Object.getPrototypeOf(Object.keys(...)) === []
  496. # [17:18] <Ms2ger`> What else?
  497. # [17:18] * Ms2ger` is now known as Ms2ger
  498. # [17:19] <caitp> Array.isArray(Object.keys(...)) === true ?
  499. # [17:19] <caitp> etc :c
  500. # [17:20] <caitp> Object.prototype.toString(Object.keys(...)) === [object Array]?
  501. # [17:20] <caitp> + missing `.call`
  502. # [17:22] <hemanth> heh heh my bad, Enumeration VS Iteration
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  505. # [17:27] <caitp> yes, it won't behave the same as for-of
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  507. # [17:27] <hemanth> hrrm
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  513. # [17:30] <hemanth> there must be a deprecated 'for each...in' as well ;)
  514. # [17:31] <Ms2ger> There is
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  516. # [17:31] <Ms2ger> Thanks to E4X
  517. # [17:32] <caitp> and for-of will confuse people in other ways too, we don't know how to spec consistent languages
  518. # [17:32] <hemanth> heh heh
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  524. # [17:38] <hemanth> I would stick for forEach for array and for-of for generator objects and for-in for the rest...
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  553. # [18:36] <JakeA> annevk: ahh, so is https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/398#issuecomment-51081392 correct, "conditional" mean must-revaidate?
  554. # [18:36] <JakeA> means&
  555. # [18:36] <JakeA> means**
  556. # [18:36] <JakeA> means*
  557. # [18:36] <JakeA> there, fixed.
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  562. # [18:40] <annevk> JakeA: oh, yes, conditional goes via a server
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  567. # [18:49] <JakeA> Riiiiiiight. I'd gotten confused. I thought "available" meant something other than "fresh"
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  603. # [20:04] <Hixie> zcorpan: if they're assigned to me, comment on them first so i can check them out
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  617. # [20:20] <Hixie> "There is no way to represent a promise value in IDL"
  618. # [20:20] <Hixie> what's a "promise value"?
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  673. # [21:41] <Domenic> annevk: whatever form it takes it will almost certainly be { input, output }
  674. # [21:42] <annevk> Domenic: a class that has both input and output?
  675. # [21:42] <annevk> Domenic: because a plain object is unlikely to fly by Adam Barth
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  678. # [21:43] <Domenic> annevk: not sure which yet. mostly a convention.
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  680. # [21:44] <Domenic> annevk: but yes, something like var { input, output } = new PassThroughStream() seems reasonable.
  681. # [21:45] <Domenic> this comes back to my confusion as to how to "bootstrap" a two-ended stream
  682. # [21:45] <Domenic> if a PassThroughStream is composed of a { WritableStream input, ReadableStream output }, then WritableStream and ReadableStream should have constructors
  683. # [21:46] <Domenic> But kind of the whole point of PassThroughStream is that you should be able to use it to create either end, without creating them separately....
  684. # [21:46] <Domenic> meh, it's solvable
  685. # [21:47] <Domenic> just need to get these damn benchmarks finished
  686. # [21:47] <Domenic> then the potential simplifications can begin
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  704. # [22:26] <smaug____> does chrome warn about use of some deprecated features ?
  705. # [22:29] <caitp> yes
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  710. # [22:35] <smaug____> caitp: which features for example?
  711. # [22:35] <smaug____> Hmm, looks like MutationEvent usage has dropped
  712. # [22:36] <caitp> someone filed a bug on angular about browsers (including chrome) complaining about touching Event.returnValue some time ago
  713. # [22:36] <caitp> so that would be one
  714. # [22:36] <smaug____> caitp: I guess it just doesn't warn about mutation events
  715. # [22:36] <smaug____> nor sync XHR
  716. # [22:36] <caitp> i'm not sure if synchronous XHR is properly deprecated in chromium yet
  717. # [22:36] <caitp> tyoshino would probably know
  718. # [22:37] <caitp> if there was an intent to deprecate thread for that, I missed that one
  719. # [22:37] <SamB> hmm, is it that complicated that it needs deprecating in a technical sense?
  720. # [22:38] <SamB> rather than just a "hey dumbass, don't block your script on that; it's bad for UX"
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  722. # [22:38] <smaug____> caitp: it is deprecated in the spec
  723. # [22:38] <smaug____> all the browser vendors agreed about that
  724. # [22:38] <caitp> yes, but not necessarily in browsers
  725. # [22:39] <caitp> IE a browser doesn't necessarily warn you, there aren't necessarily plans to remove the feature yet
  726. # [22:40] <SamB> oh, that reminds me about trigraphs
  727. # [22:40] <smaug____> well, in Gecko the plan is to "remove-when-the-usage-low-enough-and-warn-until-then"
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  731. # [22:41] <caitp> that's a reasonable approach :>
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  741. # [23:03] <zcorpan> Hixie: comment and close at the same time ok? or just comment?
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  745. # [23:08] <jarek> Hi
  746. # [23:08] <jarek> which spec covers the data binding functionality from Polymer?
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  748. # [23:08] <jarek> the template spec is said to be moved to HTML5 spec, but I can't find any mention of data binding there
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  750. # [23:09] <Hixie> zcorpan: comment, if you comment and close i won't see it for months (i only read my bugmail ~annually)
  751. # [23:09] <Hixie> jarek: there is no spec that covers data binding
  752. # [23:09] <Hixie> to my knowledge
  753. # [23:10] <zcorpan> k
  754. # [23:11] <jarek> so the stuff described here is completely non-standard? http://www.polymer-project.org/docs/polymer/databinding.html
  755. # [23:11] <jarek> is there any chance that Mozilla will implement it?
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  761. # [23:16] <Hixie> jarek: yes, that is currently non-standard.
  762. # [23:16] <Hixie> jarek: no idea what mozilla's plans are, but if two browsers implement this, then it's a de facto standard
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  766. # [23:27] <Domenic> chrome does not implement it either
  767. # [23:27] <Domenic> it is just a library
  768. # [23:27] <Domenic> produced by the same company that produces chrome
  769. # [23:27] <Domenic> jarek ^
  770. # [23:27] <smaug____> and there isn't any spec for that data binding
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  774. # [23:31] <jarek> every Web Components talk by Google I have seen was actually discussing Polymer
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  777. # [23:33] <jarek> I thought it was just a shim like e.g. Traceur
  778. # [23:33] <caitp> it's sort of a mix
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  781. # [23:34] <caitp> polyfills for custom elements/html imports/etc, as well as a library of components and some syntax for simplifying the creation of components + databinding
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  789. # Session Close: Tue Aug 05 00:00:00 2014

The end :)