/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-08-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Aug 05 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:04] <caitp> i dunno hixie, I think the arguments against the behaviour of constraint validation have been pretty well reasoned --- and not limited to my own criticisms of it. it's just not how people expect it to behave
  9. # [00:04] <Hixie> i don't understand the problem
  10. # [00:04] <Hixie> i mean, i really don't
  11. # [00:04] <Hixie> valueMissing tells you if the value is missing
  12. # [00:04] <Hixie> badInput tells you if the user has entered bad input
  13. # [00:04] <Hixie> that seems to me to cover all the bases
  14. # [00:05] <Hixie> what am i missing
  15. # [00:06] <caitp> that's basically it, but it's just more complicated than it really needs to be, there are things which are sort of misnomers (like [novalidate]), there's a lot of stuff there that really confuses users
  16. # [00:07] <Hixie> sounds like you're talking about more than just that bug
  17. # [00:07] <Hixie> if there's other things that need fixing, then please do file bugs (but bear in mind that if people depend on it, it's too late to change, you should have complained earlier when we asked for feedback!)
  18. # [00:07] <caitp> well, [novalidate] isn't related to the valueMissing issue, but it's in the same family of things which are not very intuitive to users
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  20. # [00:10] <Hixie> that's fine, but then file a new bug :-)
  21. # [00:10] <Hixie> i thought you were talking about the bug i commented on
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  27. # [00:28] <Hixie> TabAtkins: in css-font-loading - "unloaded" sounds very much like something that used to be loaded but is no longer loaded
  28. # [00:28] <Hixie> TabAtkins: consider e.g. onunload, onbeforeunload, etc.
  29. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> Hm, true.
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  32. # [00:29] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i don't have a much better term, but fwiw the media stuff uses "none"
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  34. # [00:30] <Hixie> other terms i've used include "empty", "idle", "nothing"
  35. # [00:31] <Hixie> TabAtkins: also it's more common to use readyState than status, fwiw.
  36. # [00:32] <Hixie> since i'm giving feedback, some more notes:
  37. # [00:32] <Hixie> i recommend against using ES-style [[Foo]] syntax, it is hard to read
  38. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> Hm. Unsure if I can change a property name, but I might try. I'll put up a message for it, at least.
  39. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> Yeah, not super happy about that either. I want something to indicate "internal" properties, though.
  40. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> (It's super-inconvenient to type, since it collides with Bikeshed's shorthands.)
  41. # [00:33] <Hixie> just say "FontFace objects have an internal font status promise, which..."
  42. # [00:33] <Hixie> where "font status promise" is <dfn>ed
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  44. # [00:34] <Hixie> what's a Promise<boolean>? Aren't you really just promising a void? I mean, you'll never resolve to false, will you?
  45. # [00:34] <Hixie> i'd probably do a Promise<FontFace>, like load()
  46. # [00:34] <Hixie> (for loaded)
  47. # [00:35] <Hixie> not sure what "... of which one is not null and the rest are null." means. There's two things. One is null and the other not? What's the one that isn't null set to?
  48. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> Actually, that's an IDL error (Promise<boolean>). The promise it refers to resolves to the FontFace.
  49. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> "rest are null". Yeah, just two things. (Maybe there were more before, and this language is a remnant? I forget.) The one that isn't null gets set by the constructor.
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  51. # [00:39] <Hixie> other than that, looks ok. I'm not sure about the whole Set thing, that looks a bit overcomplicated, but I assume that's just waiting for WebIDL to catch up.
  52. # [00:40] <Domenic> Can workers (service workers in particular) access WebRTC?
  53. # [00:41] <Hixie> Domenic: i don't think they've made that work yet, but long term i'm not aware of a reason that shouldn't work
  54. # [00:42] <Domenic> Ya that's kind of what I expected. Curious if there was a reason not; heartened that you don't think there is such a reason.
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  57. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Yeah, the Set mimicry is me waiting for IDL to have something that'll do it for me. I had a [SetClass] attribute previously, but heycam ended up not wanting to spec that yet.
  58. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> I think we're waiting for JS to actually define a subclassable Set/Map/etc.
  59. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> (Right now, you simple can't subclass them properly. Either you have to manually copy methods (and thus don't get new methods added by future specs or by authors), or you aren't able to enforce any constraints (because authors can modify it via the core Map/Set methods instead, bypassing whatever restrictions you've added).
  60. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> )
  61. # [00:48] <Hixie> sounds like the mess we had (have?) with Array
  62. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> Yup.
  63. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> Except it's even less explicable, because you don't even need a Proxy to get it right.
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  65. # [00:53] <gsnedders> why didn't it get it right for Set/Map/etc. first time?
  66. # [00:53] <caitp> if MySpecialSet has its own special 'add' method to enforce constraints, who is to stop me from invoking Set.prototype.add.call(mySpecialSet, value) and bypass any constraints anyways?
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  75. # [01:16] <Domenic> Saying that it's "right" for a subclass to impose more restrictions than its superclass is a matter of opinion
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  77. # [01:16] <Domenic> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liskov_substitution_principle etc
  78. # [01:18] <SamB> caitp: on that note, I think I'm permanently confused about which is the prototype in prototype-based programming
  79. # [01:18] <jyasskin_w> I definitely understand the desire to define a class whose specification "automatically" grows any methods added to Map, say, but which adds certain restrictions onto its values. I wouldn't call that a "subclass", but it'd be worth finding a word for it that doesn't run into LSP complaints.
  80. # [01:19] <caitp> instead of this, we implement new NoInterfaceObjects in C++ which inherit from a common base in C++ and extend the behaviour appropriately, without exposing a way to do it in scriptland
  81. # [01:20] <caitp> and this makes everybody happy
  82. # [01:22] <caitp> except that I guess we aren't even really doing that yet for all of the custom containers
  83. # [01:23] <Domenic> One way of doing this would be to divide up the container classes into "core" and "mixin" methods
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  85. # [01:23] <Domenic> so e.g. .add, .delete, [Symbol.iterator] would be core; .forEach would be mixinable
  86. # [01:23] <Domenic> and if we later added e.g. .map it would be mixinable, delegating to [Symbol.iterator]
  87. # [01:24] <caitp> but you don't want to use core .add, you want to impose restrictions on what can be added to your magic collection
  88. # [01:24] <Domenic> that way you can do Object.define(MyMap, MapMixins) as long as MyMap implements the core interface
  89. # [01:24] <Domenic> yes
  90. # [01:24] <Domenic> you implement your own .add etc.; you don't subclass Map
  91. # [01:24] <Domenic> then you mixin MapMixins to get all the non-core methods
  92. # [01:24] <Domenic> I wonder if this has anything to do with traits
  93. # [01:25] <caitp> traits would have been neat, I was sad that didn't make it =(
  94. # [01:25] <caitp> [[into harmony]]
  95. # [01:26] <Domenic> this looks to be exactly related to traits
  96. # [01:26] <Domenic> based on http://soft.vub.ac.be/~tvcutsem/traitsjs/tutorial.html
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  166. # [04:16] <caitp> TabAtkins: has there been any mail regarding the :target pseudo-class lately? I don't remember seeing any, but you'd probably be more on top of that?
  167. # [04:16] <caitp> as far as I know that should still work, right?
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  229. # [07:08] <zcorpan> Hixie: so is the current content model ok or should it be "zero or more source elements optionally intermixed with script-supporting elements followed by one img"?
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  277. # [08:26] <zcorpan> UA string is still race to the bottom. when will it stop? should we standardize on one fixed string?
  278. # [08:30] <zcorpan> Hixie: how can i run your pipeline?
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  285. # [08:44] <sangwhan> If everyone got rid of Mozilla/5.0 in their UA string that would probably save enough bytes transmitted to give one small country free internet
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  290. # [08:50] <roc> it sure would, because the entire Web would shut down
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  294. # [09:06] * zcorpan notices annevk changed "authors" to "developers" in the fetch spec
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  297. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> author-developers
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  304. # [09:32] <foolip> Ms2ger: you there?
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  306. # [09:32] <Ms2ger> foolip, sir!
  307. # [09:33] <foolip> Ms2ger: do you have any juicy info on the compat situation with HTMLImageElement.x/y in Gecko?
  308. # [09:33] <Ms2ger> We tried removing it, it broke something
  309. # [09:33] <foolip> see this thread: https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msg/blink-dev/zpLuYu8tmdA/uA_7TQSQDzQJ
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  311. # [09:33] * Ms2ger looks if he can find the site
  312. # [09:33] <foolip> I'm trying to figure out if there's any change to Blink that could bring us closer to agreement between spec and implementations
  313. # [09:34] <foolip> these are the relevant Gecko bugs:
  314. # [09:34] <foolip> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98292
  315. # [09:34] <foolip> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116843
  316. # [09:34] <foolip> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=587021
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  318. # [09:35] <foolip> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=731832 too
  319. # [09:35] <Ms2ger> Yep, 731832 was the one that made us back it out
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  321. # [09:36] <foolip> http://web.archive.org/web/20120107051245/http://www.crownhill.com/ looks modern :)
  322. # [09:37] <Ms2ger> Yep, that's the one
  323. # [09:37] <Ms2ger> Code that used it in http://web.archive.org/web/20110807212111/http://www.crownhill.com/buttons_1/xaramenu.js
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  325. # [09:38] <Ms2ger> "if(NS4)return;"
  326. # [09:38] <foolip> if(NS6){if(mal==0){x=event.target.x-bd;y=event.target.y;dx=event.target.offsetWidth;dy=event.target.offsetHeight;} is the relevant bit, no?
  327. # [09:39] <Ms2ger> Yep
  328. # [09:39] * Ms2ger got distracted
  329. # [09:39] <foolip> and ar NS6=(!document.all&&document.getElementById)
  330. # [09:39] <foolip> var
  331. # [09:39] <foolip> that's some pretty weird logic :)
  332. # [09:40] <Ms2ger> If that's the weirdest you've seen... ;)
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  335. # [09:41] <foolip> what I really wanted to ask is if you can figure out what GetXY() in https://github.com/mozilla/gecko-dev/blob/master/content/html/content/src/HTMLImageElement.cpp actually means
  336. # [09:42] <foolip> in my testing it's usually like offsetLeft/offsetTop, but not always
  337. # [09:42] <foolip> is this layer thing something that maps to a CSS concept?
  338. # [09:43] <Ms2ger> I don't know
  339. # [09:43] <Ms2ger> I think roc explained or was going to explain it in the W3C bug to add it to the spec
  340. # [09:43] <foolip> ok, I'll see if I can find that bug
  341. # [09:43] <foolip> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17844
  342. # [09:45] <Ms2ger> Comment 16 there was what I remembered
  343. # [09:46] <foolip> I guess that means I should ask roc about the details
  344. # [09:46] <Ms2ger> Also https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=887660
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  350. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: Any chance you can re-deploy v.nu and h5.v.nu this week? I fixed a bug that had broken <picture> validation.
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  353. # [10:00] <annevk> zcorpan: seems to be preferred by some set of people
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  368. # [10:27] <annevk> JakeA: Googleman, what does "impacts MVP" mean?
  369. # [10:28] <annevk> JakeA: oh wait, I know, minimal viable product
  370. # [10:28] <JakeA> yeeep
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  374. # [10:33] <tobie> lean spec writing
  375. # [10:34] <tobie> you should do workshops. there's money to be made.
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  400. # [11:24] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: chances for redeploying this week are good
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  402. # [11:29] <jgraham> hsivonen: You sound like a magic 8 ball ;)
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  411. # [11:39] <sangwhan> anyone here with knowledge about gecko's KeyboardEvent implementation?
  412. # [11:40] * sangwhan nudges smaug____
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  416. # [11:47] <Ms2ger> mayasuki
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  420. # [11:56] <smaug____> sangwhan: pong
  421. # [11:56] <smaug____> what about it
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  423. # [11:56] <smaug____> but yes, masayuki knows it best
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  425. # [11:57] <smaug____> sangwhan: aren't you even in the same timezone as masayuki
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  429. # [12:01] <sangwhan> smaug____: except i don't know masayuki. is he here or do i have to find him on irc.moz?
  430. # [12:02] <zcorpan> Hixie: fixed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25585 but possibly that section is a bit confused now, and it doesn't cover img srcset, and there's overlap with the Introduction examples
  431. # [12:03] <sangwhan> Basically i have this odd test that only passes in gecko: http://tests.sangwhan.com/tests/generated_keyevent.html
  432. # [12:03] <sangwhan> Can't decrypt d3e fast enough to figure out if that's correct or not
  433. # [12:04] <sangwhan> smaug____: ^
  434. # [12:06] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: cool
  435. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> sangwhan: masayuki not on #whatwg afaik. not sure if he's on mozilla irc much either. seems like he communicates most through bug comments..
  436. # [12:08] <smaug____> sangwhan: in moznet
  437. # [12:09] <smaug____> and yes, MikeSmith is right
  438. # [12:09] <smaug____> sangwhan: note, as far as I know, only Gecko implements large parts of the spec
  439. # [12:10] <smaug____> sangwhan: oh, that test is odd
  440. # [12:10] <smaug____> it tests legacy keyCode
  441. # [12:10] <smaug____> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/webidl/KeyboardEvent.webidl#50
  442. # [12:11] <smaug____> which aren't, AFAIK, defined to be in the dictionary by any spec
  443. # [12:11] <smaug____> but we had to support them, at least for now
  444. # [12:12] <sangwhan> smaug____: yes, it is odd. came from a external source, and i have no idea if it should work or not
  445. # [12:12] <smaug____> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/webidl/KeyEvent.webidl and http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/webidl/KeyboardEvent.webidl explain that kind of part of Gecko's behavior
  446. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> sangwhan: btw I think they have a telcon every wednesday morning at 9am JST, on #webapps on irs.w3.org, and masayuki usually calls into that
  447. # [12:14] <smaug____> Well, spec says only "Legacy keyboard event implementations include three additional attributes, keyCode, charCode, and which."
  448. # [12:14] <smaug____> sangwhan: you could file a spec bug to clarify this
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  452. # [12:27] <jgraham> glwt
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  455. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> https://twitter.com/ronkorving/status/496582799181094914
  456. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> "Why the hell doesn't documentFragment support innerHTML? This is nuts."
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  458. # [12:32] <zcorpan> foolip = rambo
  459. # [12:33] <roc> foolip: what exactly do you need to konw?
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  470. # [13:01] <annevk> MikeSmith: we tried to define it at one point and got stuck iirc
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  476. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> annevk: stuck on what, I wonder. maybe there's an open bug
  477. # [13:15] * MikeSmith checks
  478. # [13:16] <annevk> MikeSmith: there's something about ShadowTree or whatever it is called these days and innerHTML too
  479. # [13:16] <Ms2ger> Yeah, there was something
  480. # [13:17] <Ms2ger> Broke jQuery, perhaps?
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  482. # [13:20] <MikeSmith> founs https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16904
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  509. # [14:12] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, r? https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/2180
  510. # [14:14] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: done
  511. # [14:14] <Ms2ger> Thanks
  512. # [14:15] * Ms2ger merges
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  526. # [14:31] <Domenic> Why don't we just standardize UA string?
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  532. # [14:36] <jgraham> The entire world would collapse
  533. # [14:37] <Ms2ger> Domenic, there's a reasonable argument that they're useful for statistics on the server side, at least
  534. # [14:37] <Domenic> I mean, standardize it to one of the existing ones, not to something sane
  535. # [14:37] <jgraham> There's also a reasonable argument that not everything can be feature detected
  536. # [14:37] <Domenic> I guess
  537. # [14:37] <Ms2ger> Also, people are unlikely to stop having browser-specific code altogether
  538. # [14:37] <jgraham> But, more importantly, people *do* use it
  539. # [14:37] <Domenic> just seems inevitable
  540. # [14:38] <jgraham> And it turns out that changing it breaks sites, really badly
  541. # [14:38] <Ms2ger> More likely, they'd use things like var NS6=(!document.all&&document.getElementById)
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  545. # [14:56] <foolip> roc: I emailed, as you noticed :)
  546. # [14:56] <foolip> now I've installed Netscape 4 to see how it originally behaved, since that's what both the initial Gecko and WebKit implementation pointed to
  547. # [14:57] <foolip> In case anyone has forgotten, NS4 was awesome
  548. # [14:57] <Ms2ger> I wonder if its source code ever escaped
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  550. # [15:00] <annevk> Domenic: I think having an option in fetch() to omit it would be a nice start
  551. # [15:00] <annevk> Domenic: provides at least a start for the client side crowd to make it trickier for servers
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  589. # [15:25] <annevk> JakeA: 9AM PDT is what?
  590. # [15:25] <annevk> found it
  591. # [15:25] <Ms2ger> 6pm .nl
  592. # [15:25] <JakeA> annevk: 17:00 for me, 18:00 for you I guess
  593. # [15:25] <annevk> Ms2ger: .ch
  594. # [15:25] * Ms2ger has no idea what .ch is
  595. # [15:25] <Ms2ger> Timezone-wise
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  597. # [15:25] <annevk> Ms2ger: same
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  600. # [15:25] <Ms2ger> Okay, wasn't sure
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  606. # [15:32] <annevk> jgraham: you like discussing this stuff: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26405
  607. # [15:32] * annevk can't come up with suitable terms that'll stick
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  610. # [15:34] <tobie> Votes for a URL primitive.
  611. # [15:34] <tobie> ^ that would make parsing JS SOOOO much fun.
  612. # [15:40] <annevk> I'm not sure what you mean tobie, but that doesn't seem to relate to that bug
  613. # [15:43] <tobie> annevk: never mind me. I very often forget to add quotes around urls when writing JavaScript.
  614. # [15:44] <tobie> annevk: …which makes me think it would be kind of neat if the language of the Web supported URL primitives.
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  616. # [15:45] <annevk> url`http://....` could be something I suppose
  617. # [15:45] <annevk> Not sure what the latest is on those kind of strings
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  619. # [15:46] <tobie> Yeah. The syntax is so enticing. I can't wait. </sarcasm>
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  621. # [15:47] <tobie> Anyway, why don't you call them URL strings and URL objects?
  622. # [15:48] <annevk> Yeah, URL input and URL objects was what I had so far
  623. # [15:49] <tobie> input's kind of weird imho.
  624. # [15:49] <gsnedders> tobie: hey, ES4X is what we really want for parsing
  625. # [15:49] <annevk> Well, it's input to the parser
  626. # [15:50] <tobie> yeah, but that's very specific to the URL spec.
  627. # [15:51] <tobie> If you want to talk about setting window.location to a URL xxx you probably want to use URL string (instead of input).
  628. # [15:52] <jgraham> FWIW I also said — string and — object
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  632. # [15:56] <zcorpan> why not "URL" and {URL}
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  635. # [15:58] <jgraham> IETF approve of your scare quotes
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  637. # [15:59] <Ms2ger> [[URL]]
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  639. # [16:00] <zcorpan> remember to register for tpac everyone
  640. # [16:00] <zcorpan> or are you guys not going?
  641. # [16:00] <tobie> zcorpan: would you call those handlebar URLs or 'stache URLs?
  642. # [16:01] <zcorpan> tobie: fiskmås
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  644. # [16:03] <annevk> Probably not going to TPAC
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  664. # [16:37] <tobie> JakeA: trying to wrap my head around the SW/cache streaming. Why are we teeing/cloning the streams instead of piping them through the client and to the cache? e.g. response.body.pipe(e.response).pipe(cache) or something
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  666. # [16:39] <annevk> tobie: see Fetch for why you need to tee
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  670. # [16:40] * tobie looks.
  671. # [16:40] <JakeA> tobie: isn't that treating the browser renderer as a transform stream that returns just the same value?
  672. # [16:43] <caitp> some time ago, some guy started applying the word streams to things and telling people that it simplified things --- and then everyone jumped on the streams bandwagon waving their pipes everywhere
  673. # [16:43] <caitp> and that's why we're doing it
  674. # [16:43] <tobie> JakeA: well, doesn't the renderer immediately buffer the response stream and deserializes into something else? A JS string, a rasterized image, etc? (No idea what I'm talking about.)
  675. # [16:44] <tobie> caitp: the emperor's fully dressed, thank you.
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  681. # [16:51] <JakeA> tobie: it'll transform it into dom nodes, video frame(s) etc etc. It won't buffer the whole response before transforming begins unless the format requires it
  682. # [16:52] <tobie> JakeA: makes sense.
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  694. # [17:12] <tobie> annevk: where is teeing defined?
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  696. # [17:13] <annevk> nowhere
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  698. # [17:14] <tobie> ah
  699. # [17:15] <tobie> annevk: are there any plans for it to be defined somewhere?
  700. # [17:15] <JakeA> tobie: https://github.com/whatwg/streams
  701. # [17:16] <annevk> yeah, the plan is to have stream primitives for the platform and a stream API on top
  702. # [17:16] <annevk> hopefully the stream terminology can be reused by things that don't necessarily expose it in an API
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  704. # [17:21] <tobie> oh, so teeing throttles the source's writes to the slowest of its destinations? Isn't that an issue when writing to cache and the client at the same time?
  705. # [17:22] <tobie> annevk: not sure what you mean by stream primitives in that case.
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  707. # [17:23] <annevk> tobie: the underlying model I guess
  708. # [17:24] <tobie> annevk: thanks for clarifying.
  709. # [17:25] <JakeA> tobie: teeing throttles to the fastest of the destinations and holds the content in memory for the slowest, I believe
  710. # [17:26] <tobie> JakeA: upon reading the spec again, it seems that's voluntarily unspecified.
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  712. # [17:26] * JakeA shines the Domenic symbol into the cloudy sky
  713. # [17:27] <tobie> But the example implementation throttles all connections, though.
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  715. # [17:30] <tobie> JakeA: I feel like the goal for SW/cache was to abstract away the underlying streams completely, and that they
  716. # [17:30] <tobie> arg
  717. # [17:30] <tobie> JakeA: …'re now totally leaking through.
  718. # [17:31] <JakeA> tobie: the goal was more to prepare for streams, but be able to ship sooner than that
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  736. # [17:53] <JakeA> http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/pictures-of-politicians-when-they-were-younger
  737. # [17:53] <JakeA> Well, that was the wrong channel
  738. # [17:53] <JakeA> but enjoy that anyway
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  741. # [17:56] <caitp> would love to, but it turns out that 802.11n makes it very difficult to enjoy much of anything
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  750. # [18:04] <JakeA> Hixie: I keep typing ArrayBugger, just in case you're looking for more specs to Britainify
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  752. # [18:07] <jgraham> I think that how we all feel about js arrays
  753. # [18:07] <gsnedders> jgraham: that they're the best thing ever, and you really want JS engines to optimize them into typed arrays?
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  862. # [21:21] <Hixie> if anyone has ideas of examples we could add to the HTML spec of how to use HTML elements or APIs in Web apps (as opposed to documents), please add them to https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25747
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  915. # [22:19] <TabAtkins> caitp: No, nothing in particular about :target. Why?
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  917. # [22:19] <caitp> i didn't think so, it was just a bug someone had filed, it's been addressed
  918. # [22:19] <caitp> just wanted to make sure :>
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  937. # [22:54] <Domenic> So apparently DOCTYPE serialization is a mess
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  940. # [22:56] <Hixie> DOCTYPE serialisation is nice and easy
  941. # [22:56] <Hixie> you just output the constant string '<!DOCTYPE HTML>'
  942. # [22:56] <Hixie> :-)
  943. # [22:56] <Domenic> it is only observable via XHR, and browsers all do the more complicated thing
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  950. # [23:04] <Hixie> anyone got IE around who can tell me the output of http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=3099 ?
  951. # [23:06] <Hixie> Domenic: i've no idea what that issue is about, can you elaborarte?
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  953. # [23:06] <Hixie> elaborate
  954. # [23:07] <Domenic> Hixie: so I maintain jsdom, which is a server-side implementation of the DOM. We are trying to figure out when the user asks us "save this document to a file" how we should serialize it
  955. # [23:07] <Hixie> replace the DOCTYPE with '<!DOCTYPE HTML>'
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  958. # [23:08] <Domenic> So, two minor problems: 1) that is not what browsers do when you serialize via XHR; 2) that is not what DOM S&P says
  959. # [23:08] <Domenic> (it is what HTML says)
  960. # [23:08] <Hixie> why are either of those problems?
  961. # [23:08] <Domenic> they are minor problems. e.g. we should probably fix DOM S&P
  962. # [23:09] <Domenic> and we should either fix browsers or fix the XHR spec to reflect browsers
  963. # [23:09] <Hixie> i don't understand the relevance of either (1) or (2) to what a server does
  964. # [23:09] <Domenic> they aren't really problems for us
  965. # [23:09] <Domenic> for me
  966. # [23:09] <Domenic> they are problems for the web that I have uncovered in the midst of this investigation
  967. # [23:12] <jgraham> Isn't DOM S&P the one that W3C forked and added lots of complexity to for no readon
  968. # [23:12] <jgraham> *reason
  969. # [23:12] <Domenic> to be fair, they seem to have fixed bugs or holes in some csaes
  970. # [23:12] <Domenic> Ms2ger hasn't had time to reincorporate those back into the original
  971. # [23:13] <Hixie> Domenic: oh the server side of this is irrelevant?
  972. # [23:13] <Hixie> now i'm even more confused
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  974. # [23:14] <Hixie> what is the question i'm supposed to be answering?
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  978. # [23:14] <Domenic> Hixie: sorry to confuse. I was just paging you guys in to let you know about a problem that we discovered, not to ask you to help us fix our code.
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  980. # [23:15] <Hixie> what's the problem though?
  981. # [23:15] <Domenic> the two abovementioned problems. DOM P&S contradicting HTML; XHR contradicting reality
  982. # [23:19] <Hixie> ah
  983. # [23:20] <Hixie> i wonder if anything uses the HTML spec's definition at this point
  984. # [23:21] <Domenic> I believe XHR says to use HTML's, but browsers do not do that
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The end :)