/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-08-09 / end

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1. # Session Start: Sat Aug 09 00:00:00 2014
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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8. # [00:12] <Hixie_> jorendorff: oh wow, really? I don't have to return a Promise, i can return a { then: function () } ?
9. # [00:12] <Hixie_> fascinating
10. # [00:12] <jorendorff> yes, you can.
11. # [00:12] <boogyman> So it's duck-typing?
12. # [00:13] <jorendorff> yeah
13. # [00:13] <jorendorff> as an implementer, i'm not crazy about stuff like that (in the absence of use cases). it creates corner cases
14. # [00:17] <Hixie_> why does Promise.resolve() not also allow that then?
15. # [00:17] <Hixie_> wait, this is going to cause all kinds of problems
16. # [00:17] <Hixie_> it means that not only can you not return a promise, you also can't return any object that happens to have a callable 'then'
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18. # [00:19] <caitp> sounds almost exactly like aplus
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24. # [00:28] <jorendorff> i agree that that's what it means
25. # [00:30] <jorendorff> can't say if it'll cause all kinds of problems in practice
26. # [00:30] <caitp> on the other hand, it means you can consume non-"native" implementations
27. # [00:30] <caitp> these same rules have been in place for a few years
28. # [00:30] <caitp> people have gotten pretty used to them, I think
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30. # [00:36] <Hixie_> well it means e.g. if i want to return an object that's a dictionary of english words with functions attached to them, the code will suddenly break utterly if one of those words is "then".
31. # [00:37] <Hixie_> if i'm the F in a construct like PromiseCatch(PromiseThen(p, F), G)
32. # [00:37] <caitp> sure, but in practice people do things like `return { data: theDictionary };` or similar
33. # [00:37] <Hixie_> and I return a promise
34. # [00:38] <Hixie_> and that promise is a construct like PromiseThen(PromiseNew(A), B)
35. # [00:38] <Hixie_> and B throws
36. # [00:38] <Hixie_> does G get called?
37. # [00:38] <Hixie_> Domenic: ^
38. # [00:39] <jorendorff> Hixie_: yes
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40. # [00:39] <Hixie_> k
41. # [00:39] <Hixie_> thanks
42. # [00:39] <jorendorff> in the lingo, the promise PromiseThen(p, F) is not "settled" when F returns
43. # [00:40] <jorendorff> if it returns a thenable
44. # [00:40] <jorendorff> instead, we let it ride
45. # [00:40] <jorendorff> double the stakes
46. # [00:40] <jorendorff> "now you have two promises"
47. # [00:40] <jorendorff> and other pithy sayings
48. # [00:47] <Hixie_> is %Loader% the same as the Realm's [[loader]] (which is the same as window.System)?
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50. # [00:47] <Hixie_> (the definition of %Loader% is blank)
51. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Re "you also can't return any object that happens to have a callable 'then'", yup, I fought against that crap. So did Alex Russell, for a while - he was arguing for "ghetto branding" (the presence of an improbably-named property) as we don't have Symbols quite yet. But we lost.
52. # [00:50] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: i don't understand the argument for this. I mean, other parts of the spec use IsPromise() without controversy as far as I can tell.
53. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> It's so that existing Promise libraries (conforming to the A+ spec) can be used directly as promises without any updates.
54. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> I still don't think it's worth it, but shrug.
55. # [00:50] <Hixie_> but they can't with other parts of the api
56. # [00:50] <caitp> domenic you aren't writing a CL for that are you? that one looks simple!
57. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> Right, I think a lot of this is a mess. :/
58. # [00:51] <Hixie_> e.g. you can't call Promise.resolve() with an a+ promise
59. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> That's actualy surprising, and likely a mistake.
60. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> Promise.resolve() is supposed to ahve the same semantics as returning a value from a promise callback.
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62. # [00:52] <TabAtkins> Promise.resolve(foo) === new Promise(function(resolve){ resolve(foo); }) === somePromise.then(function(){ return foo}, function(){ return foo; })
63. # [00:52] <TabAtkins> That's what the semantics are *supposed* to be.
64. # [00:53] <Hixie_> well right now Promise.resolve({then:foo}); is not the same as Promise.resolve(new Promise(foo)) (i'm assuming i got those right)
65. # [00:54] <TabAtkins> Well, it's unlikely that the same "foo" can be used in both those places, but sure.
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67. # [00:55] <Hixie_> yeah i don't really understand this promise stuff
68. # [00:55] <Hixie_> and the more i learn about it the less clear it gets :-(
69. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> I don't know why; they feel really simple to me.
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71. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> But oh well.
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73. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> A consistent pattern in your confusion seems to be that you continually get confused over the difference between the contruction callback and the then() callbacks.
74. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> Fix that, and maybe it will help?
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76. # [00:57] <Hixie_> well what would the equivalent of Promise.resolve({then:foo}) be using a promise and 'foo'?
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79. # [00:57] <boogyman> My understanding would be a TypeError, right?
80. # [00:58] <TabAtkins> {then:foo} is an object that happens to have a "then" property with the value foo. Maybe that's a method, but we have no idea what it does.
81. # [00:58] <Hixie_> assume 'foo' is a function
82. # [00:58] <TabAtkins> With a promise, that's, um, "somePromise.then = foo;", which is almost certainly not what you're thinking about.
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84. # [01:01] <Domenic> caitp: which one?
85. # [01:01] <TabAtkins> (Here, you're confusing setting "then" to some value and calling "then" with an argument.)
86. # [01:01] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: take new Promise(function(a, b) { a() }).then(function () { return { then: foo } });
87. # [01:01] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: what's the equivalent of that but using a real promise instead of "{ then: foo }" ?
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89. # [01:02] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: make that new Promise(function(a, b) { a() }).then(function () { doSomething(); return { then: foo } });
90. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> There isn't, because a real promise won't have "foo" as the value of its "then" property. It'll have, most likely, the default value of Promise.prototype.then.
91. # [01:02] <Hixie_> ?
92. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> I'm not sure what you're itnending with the thenable there, so it's hard to answer.
93. # [01:02] <Hixie_> that seems like a non-sequitur
94. # [01:03] <TabAtkins> {then:foo} is an object with a then() method that does something. A Promise is also an object with a then() method that does something.
95. # [01:03] <Hixie_> right now if you return a {then:foo} from a then() callback, it calls foo() in a microtask later.
96. # [01:03] <TabAtkins> Yes.
97. # [01:03] <Hixie_> ok so you can do this also with real promises right?
98. # [01:03] <TabAtkins> And the same thing happens to a promise - its then() method gets called later.
99. # [01:03] <Hixie_> instead of this fake object with a 'then' property?
100. # [01:03] <TabAtkins> Depends on what you're intending - I'm very confused here.
101. # [01:03] <Hixie_> so how do you return a promise whose then() method calls foo?
102. # [01:04] <TabAtkins> Is your *intention* that foo() get called at some point? That is, that the foo() method itself is important, not just a metasyntactic variable?
103. # [01:04] <Hixie_> yes
104. # [01:04] <TabAtkins> Ah, k.
105. # [01:04] <Hixie_> first doSoemthing() is called, then foo() is called
106. # [01:04] <Hixie_> in separate microtasks
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108. # [01:05] <TabAtkins> And you still want a promise returned from the chain like normal? (In the thenable example you've provided, unless foo() acts correctly, you'll probably get a rejected promise out at the end.)
109. # [01:05] <Hixie_> what is "acts correctly"?
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111. # [01:06] <Hixie_> isn't it just "not throw"?
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114. # [01:06] <boogyman> implements the same interface as a Promise()
115. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> `new Promise(function(a, b){ a(); })` is equivalent to `Promise.resolve()`, so I'll pretend you used that, since it's clearer.
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117. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> I'm not sure what the expected beahvior of a then() method is, precisely. I haven't looked into it in detail, and don't plan to write my own promise impl.
118. # [01:07] <TabAtkins> So, your requirement can just be Promise.resolve().then(doSomething).then(foo)
119. # [01:07] <Hixie_> hold on, you've moved 'foo' outside of the original callback
120. # [01:07] <TabAtkins> ???
121. # [01:08] <TabAtkins> I did what you asked for. You want something different, give me better requirements. ^_^
122. # [01:08] <boogyman> Then's are chainable.
123. # [01:08] <Hixie_> ok a better example: suppose you have new Promise(function(a, b) { a() }).then(F);
124. # [01:08] <Hixie_> and F is function F() { doSomething(); return { then: foo } }
125. # [01:08] <TabAtkins> Okay, `fulfilledPromise.then(F)` for clarity.
126. # [01:09] <Hixie_> so the question is, how do you rewrite F so it uses a real promise instead of { then: foo }
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130. # [01:09] <TabAtkins> That code is *not* the normal way to have a method get called later. Don't use thenables on purpose unless you're actually intending them to be promise-likes.
131. # [01:09] <Hixie_> i've no idea what that means
132. # [01:09] <TabAtkins> And I don't know what your code means.
133. # [01:09] <Hixie_> what's a "thenable"
134. # [01:10] <TabAtkins> An object with a callable "then" property.
135. # [01:10] <TabAtkins> Or, in other words, a Promise or Promise-like.
136. # [01:10] <Hixie_> "don't use a promise unless you want a promise"?
137. # [01:10] <Hixie_> i don't know what i want
138. # [01:10] <Hixie_> i'm trynig to work out what it means to return a {then:foo}
139. # [01:10] <TabAtkins> It *appears* that you want doSomething() to be called in one microtask, and then foo() in another.
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141. # [01:11] <TabAtkins> You're for some reason trying to achieve this by constructing a promise-like object, which is weird and almost certainly not what you want.
142. # [01:11] <Hixie_> all i'm trying to do is understand what the spec means
143. # [01:11] <Hixie_> the spec allows you to return any object with a "then" property that's callable
144. # [01:11] <caitp> Domenic, v8:3499 --- that one seems really trivial, so I wanna write that one while I make dinner :3
145. # [01:11] <caitp> but if you've already done it then no big deal
146. # [01:11] <Domenic> caitp: haha ya be my guest, I haven't gotten my dev environment set up
147. # [01:12] <TabAtkins> Returning {then:foo} means the same thing as returning a promise. Except that if foo() doesn't do what the spec expects (I dont' know the details of this), weird things will happen.
148. # [01:12] <TabAtkins> Where "weird" is probably "the chained promise gets rejected".
149. # [01:13] <Hixie_> and if you return a promise, what happens? it just gets its "then" method called immediately?
150. # [01:13] <TabAtkins> I *think* all that happens is that the spec calls foo() at some appropriate time, and creates its own (native) promise that either fulfills or rejects, based on whether foo() returns or throws. But I'm not certain if that's exactly right.
151. # [01:13] <TabAtkins> "immediately": well, whenever the spec says to.
152. # [01:13] <TabAtkins> I don't recall the details.
153. # [01:14] <Hixie_> i'm reading the spec as we speak and i can't figure out the details either
154. # [01:14] <Hixie_> whence my confusion
155. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> Oh wait, I remember a bit better.
156. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> So, this is complicated.
157. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> And now there's a fire drill, so bbiab
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179. # [01:53] <Hixie_> i think i'm suffering from some sort of stockholm syndrome with the loader
180. # [01:53] <Hixie_> i've reached the ProceedToTranslate callers
181. # [01:54] <Hixie_> basically i've flow-charted everything from ProceedToTranslate() to UpdateLinkSetOnLoad()
182. # [01:56] <SamB> Hixie_: what's the ransom set at?
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190. # [02:16] <Hixie_> SamB: hard to say
191. # [02:16] <SamB> which of you has been kidnapped?
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194. # [02:21] <Hixie_> definitely me
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197. # [02:27] <Hixie_> crap, turns out i missed some stuff
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390. # [12:18] <hemanth> with hosting, why is that functions get hosted first then vars ?
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392. # [12:19] <Ms2ger> *hoisting
393. # [12:20] <hemanth> ha, hoisting
394. # [12:20] <hemanth> like flag hoisting ;)
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396. # [12:22] <hemanth> Ms2ger, any specific reason for that?
397. # [12:22] <Ms2ger> I don't know
398. # [12:24] <hemanth> oki
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415. # [13:12] <annevk> https://twitter.com/antimattur/status/498042091805900800
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426. # [13:59] <annevk> I wonder why hardware you buy in 2014 still comes with a CD. I don't own any hardware that takes a CD.
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469. # [16:16] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I forgot to mention that I redeployed Validator.nu yesterday.
470. # [16:16] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks for the fixes
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589. # [22:42] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: excellent -- thanks, I'll push the changes to the W3C validator now too
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608. # Session Close: Sun Aug 10 00:00:00 2014

The end :)