/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-08-12 / end

Options:

# Session Start: Tue Aug 12 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:00] * Quits: Maurice` (copyman@5ED5617C.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
# [00:03] * Joins: newtron_work (~newtron@199.71.174.204)
# [00:06] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-44-207.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [00:07] * Quits: newtron_ (~newtron@199.71.174.203) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [00:07] * Quits: bholley (~bholley@corp.mtv2.mozilla.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [00:07] * Joins: bholley (~bholley@corp.mtv2.mozilla.com)
# [00:07] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com) (Quit: sicking)
# [00:07] * Quits: ap (~ap@17.202.44.214)
# [00:08] * Quits: newtron_work (~newtron@199.71.174.204) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [00:09] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
# [00:10] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@2001:450:1f:224:30c0:86a:308:81e7) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [00:10] * Joins: boogyman (~boogyman@pdpc/supporter/professional/boogyman)
# [00:11] <MikeSmith> pluma: I think the security models for that http://www.w3.org/TR/raw-sockets/ is not the Web security model. That spec depends on an different, as-yet-undocumented off-Web security model. All the specs from the SysApps WG do
# [00:11] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@2001:450:1f:224:30c0:86a:308:81e7)
# [00:12] <MikeSmith> s/security models/security model/
# [00:13] <pluma> MikeSmith: ah, so it's most likely intended for something like Firefox OS apps and such?
# [00:13] <MikeSmith> yeah, that
# [00:14] <MikeSmith> although I think Mozilla and Google are no longer participating actively in that WG any longer. So it seems unlikely that spec will go anywhere any time soon
# [00:14] * Joins: yoav (~yoav@sdo26-1-78-245-148-181.fbx.proxad.net)
# [00:16] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@2001:450:1f:224:30c0:86a:308:81e7) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [00:16] <MikeSmith> nobody's really crying out for an off-Web HTML/CSS/JS-based standard runtime
# [00:17] <MikeSmith> users certainly aren't, and developers aren't
# [00:17] * MikeSmith ends his editorial comments
# [00:18] * Joins: vitorpacheco (~vitor@179.178.230.246.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br)
# [00:18] <pluma> MikeSmith: Hm... I wished CSS would become a living standard alongside HTML.
# [00:18] <MikeSmith> pluma: it is living, it's just more of a Frankenstein monster sort of life
# [00:20] <MikeSmith> editor's drafts of CSS specs are living specs, it just takes a lot more work to observe it and try to keep up with it
# [00:20] <pluma> MikeSmith: Sure, but CSS3 isn't fully "stable" and already browsers are chasing after CSS4, not to mention all the vendor crap. I'm really hoping for a revolution a la HTML 5.
# [00:20] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: How is it harder to observe?
# [00:20] <TabAtkins> pluma: There's no such thing as CSS3 or CSS4.
# [00:21] <TabAtkins> http://www.xanthir.com/b4Ko0
# [00:21] <pluma> TabAtkins: Well, there are various CSS-related specs with "3" and "4" in their name.
# [00:21] <TabAtkins> Yes, those are the individual modules.
# [00:21] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: the volume/ number of the specs and the number of different editors
# [00:21] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Sure, but actually tracking changes seems identical between the two - just watch the repos. There are even Twitter bots for each.
# [00:22] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: and also, the knowing which specs to currently take seriously, and which are known .. duds or whatever they should be called -- but that are still around and people cite them
# [00:22] <pluma> TabAtkins: I understand that. But it just looks a lot hairier and messier than HTML / Web Apps look{s,ed}.
# [00:22] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: like, old GCPM
# [00:22] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Granted on that note.
# [00:23] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: (Though dauwhe is working on GCPM now, and trying to make it realistic.)
# [00:23] * Joins: KevinMarks (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [00:23] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: but yeay, point taken (about watching the repos and twitter bots)
# [00:23] * Joins: roc_ (~chatzilla@121-99-136-21.bng1.tvc.orcon.net.nz)
# [00:23] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: yeah astearns told me that the other day. glad to hear dauwhe is on the job
# [00:24] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: (specific context was, astearns was telling me about latest discussion on footnotes)
# [00:24] <pluma> TabAtkins: Also, having selectors spread out across different version numbers is a bit more tedious to follow than to have one single selectors spec that gets continuously revised. The world in which the version numbers matter and the world for which most web code is written are two very different worlds in my experience.
# [00:25] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@121-98-105-30.bng1.tvc.orcon.net.nz) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [00:25] * roc_ is now known as roc
# [00:25] <TabAtkins> pluma: Always and only looking at the latest version is all you need.
# [00:25] <TabAtkins> There are no selectors in Selectors 3 that are missing in Selectors 4, except those that were dropped because no one implemented them.
# [00:25] <pluma> TabAtkins: okay, but how do I know which specs are dead and will not be updated further?
# [00:26] <TabAtkins> Dead specs, *ideally*, are marked as such. We're not great about that. (I need to get off my ass and just go mark all of them.)
# [00:26] <TabAtkins> This list is also very helpful and kept up-to-date: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/current-work.en.html
# [00:26] <TabAtkins> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/current-work
# [00:26] <pluma> TabAtkins: is there a version of the specs in which current browser support is marked as in the HTML (etc) spec?
# [00:27] * Quits: nunnun (~hiro@2001:200:164:48:20c:29ff:fe02:11d2) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [00:27] <TabAtkins> Some Editor's Drafts have linkages into their test suites, with support information displayed alongside each section, similar to HTML.
# [00:27] <TabAtkins> But not all drafts have test suites.
# [00:29] <pluma> Hrmpf. I wished someone would find a solution for that. How do the WHAT WG specs manage to do this consistently?
# [00:30] * Quits: cgrant (~cgrant@207.11.113.29) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
# [00:30] <boogyman> Do you guys know if in the future the spec will call for a scenario where a "checkbox" group can have a "at least one must be checked" definition? http://codepen.io/anon/pen/IwxEh
# [00:33] * Joins: roc_ (~chatzilla@121-99-142-217.bng1.tvc.orcon.net.nz)
# [00:35] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@121-99-136-21.bng1.tvc.orcon.net.nz) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
# [00:35] * roc_ is now known as roc
# [00:36] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: fyi http://platform.html5.org links to http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/current-work
# [00:36] <pluma> TabAtkins: thanks for clearing up some of my misconceptions about the CSS versioning, though. However I still wished there was a nicer overview.
# [00:36] <TabAtkins> pluma: HTML's data is maintained manually, whenever people care to update it. ^_^
# [00:36] <TabAtkins> boogyman: You mean <input type=checkbox required>? Oh, how I've wished for that.
# [00:36] <TabAtkins> pluma: And no problem.
# [00:36] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: if/when you ahve time to look at the CSS part http://platform.html5.org please do. And either lemme know what should be changed/added/removed or just open a PR
# [00:37] <TabAtkins> kk
# [00:37] <SamB> TabAtkins: <input type=checkbox> can have more than one checkbox? how confusing :-(
# [00:37] <MikeSmith> boogyman: there is nothing that I know of but yeah I have had cases where I'd really like to have that too
# [00:37] <TabAtkins> SamB: Multiple checkboxes in a single name group.
# [00:38] <SamB> TabAtkins: in one element or several?
# [00:38] <TabAtkins> Several.
# [00:38] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [00:38] <TabAtkins> Have you worked with checkboxes before?
# [00:38] <SamB> okay, yes, that's what I thought...
# [00:38] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209)
# [00:38] * Joins: nunnun (~hiro@2001:200:164:48:20c:29ff:fe02:11d2)
# [00:39] <SamB> TabAtkins: I may or may not ever have made any myself, but I'm sure I've poked around on pages that had them ;-)
# [00:39] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: see boogyman question above. Why we have no way to define a "checkbox" group with "at least one checkbox must be checked"
# [00:39] <SamB> TabAtkins: so you'd pick one to mark "required" arbitrarily?
# [00:39] <TabAtkins> SamB: That's one of the questions, yeah.
# [00:40] <boogyman> that's one possible implementation.
# [00:40] <TabAtkins> Probably, sure. Basically if any of the checkboxes in a name group are required, it triggers the "required" beahvior for the group.
# [00:40] <SamB> TabAtkins: yeah, that seems like the only even half-sane behaviour
# [00:40] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@121-99-142-217.bng1.tvc.orcon.net.nz) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [00:40] * Quits: bholley (~bholley@corp.mtv2.mozilla.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [00:41] * Joins: bholley (~bholley@corp.mtv2.mozilla.com)
# [00:41] <SamB> because the order the checkboxes are in is not ordinarily expected to have any semantics associated with it, is it?
# [00:41] * Quits: pluma (~pluma@unaffiliated/pluma) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [00:41] <SamB> I mean, beyond what it might convey to a human
# [00:43] <boogyman> SamB: The use-case here is that you have a Business / Author whom wants to impose a "must select one or more" requirement. Currently authors are required to implement a JS shim (albeit a fairly straightforward one)
# [00:44] <SamB> boogyman: I understand the usecase, thanks ;-)
# [00:44] <SamB> I've certainly seen it on enough paper forms
# [00:44] <Hixie_> MikeSmith: not declaratively, yeah.
# [00:44] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.202.50.84) (Quit: weinig)
# [00:45] <Hixie_> MikeSmith: you can give the same semantics using <select multiple required>, though.
# [00:45] <SamB> obviously you'd still want to make the requirement clear in-text
# [00:45] <SamB> Hixie_: isn't typically a bit more awkward UI-wise?
# [00:45] <SamB> +that
# [00:45] <boogyman> Hixie_: yes, but now you're tying the author to the "dropdown" cosmetics
# [00:46] <Hixie_> SamB: semantically they're identical, so, in theory, it's just a UI issue. :-)
# [00:46] <Hixie_> boogyman: <select multiple> doesn't have a drop-down, it has a list
# [00:46] <Hixie_> in the default rendering
# [00:46] <Hixie_> and in theory, you can have any rendering you like
# [00:46] <Hixie_> if the theory doesn't match practice, send pitchforks to dglazkov_ :-)
# [00:46] <boogyman> I am unfamiliar with CSS exposing the ability to break out that list and display as "checkbox"
# [00:46] <SamB> Hixie_: I mean <select multiple> tends to be something only advanced users will actually know how to select multiple items in, doesn't it?
# [00:47] <Hixie_> SamB: well, that's really up to the browser and/or author
# [00:47] <Hixie_> anyway. if you really must use checkboxes and really must have one required (which is a weird UI, but whatever), then use script and setCustomValidity()
# [00:47] <Hixie_> that's what it's for
# [00:47] <SamB> I'm talking about the UI that the advanced users already know how to use here, which probably isn't really too negotiable at this point?
# [00:47] <zewt> tired of hearing the "the special case of the ui thread has taught us that all synchronous programming is bad" nonsense
# [00:47] <zewt> i seem to recall somebody saying that every time the sync-message thread comes up
# [00:48] <Hixie_> SamB: as far as i can tell, it's entirely negotiable.
# [00:48] <SamB> zewt: I'm already tired of it, and I'm not even *certain* I've heard it mentioned before
# [00:49] <SamB> Hixie_: what, you don't think people will get confused if the shift/control click stuff stops working?
# [00:49] <Hixie_> SamB: not if you replace it with just a bunch of labeled checkboxes...
# [00:49] <zewt> it's nice that people are aware of the issue, but it's such an over-the-top generalization
# [00:49] <boogyman> Hixie_: yes, but now you're going down the flame-wars of "JS is required", where this could be a nice addative feature for HTML to expose
# [00:49] <SamB> Hixie_: they might still get frustrated by not being able to do that though
# [00:50] <SamB> boogyman: you still have to validate at submit time anyway
# [00:50] <SamB> boogyman: so JS is only required for the "nice-to-have" prevalidation
# [00:50] <Hixie_> boogyman: there's a huge long tail of such possible new features, sure. file a bug if you want this one to enter the usual gauntlet.
# [00:50] <Hixie_> boogyman: it'd need pretty compelling use cases to be worth adding instead of something else though
# [00:50] <SamB> boogyman: so, make sure you say "check one or more" on the page, do the JS thing if you want, don't worry if *that* doesn't work with JS turned off
# [00:51] <SamB> maybe those users are using a browser that wouldn't support the new attribute anyway
# [00:52] * Joins: Lingo_ (~Lingo@176.73.66.224)
# [00:52] <SamB> boogyman: you are of course aware that it's quite possible for an adversary to submit without using *your* (or any) form, yes?
# [00:52] <SamB> heck, it could even be a non-adversary
# [00:52] <boogyman> Hixie_: It was something asked in another channel. I remember use-cases from the past, but my solution was to just implement a simple JS script for the client-validation etc...
# [00:53] * Quits: hemanth (~hemanth@122.166.182.198) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [00:54] <boogyman> SamB: I am well aware of the capability; I was forwarding on a request from a different channel, recalling my own past use-case(s)
# [00:54] <Hixie_> boogyman: it's possible in about one line of javascript, i would imagine
# [00:55] * Joins: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-122-133-198-67.kng.mesh.ad.jp)
# [00:55] <boogyman> yup, and I reference the aforementioned "JS requirement flame-wars"... :p
# [00:55] <Hixie_> i'm not sure what you're arguing against here
# [00:56] <zewt> "people will complain that it requires javascript, therefore you should do it"? that would qualify among the weakest arguments that could be made. heh
# [00:57] <boogyman> The intent was to ask if this was being planned for the future (forwarded request from different channel). It is not, without a ticket to undergo the typical change-request lifecycle.
# [00:57] <Hixie_> boogyman: nothing is planned for the future except the things that are already in the spec :-)
# [00:57] <Hixie_> boogyman: we don't really plan ahead so much
# [00:57] <Hixie_> or rather, the spec is the plan ahead
# [00:58] <boogyman> iterations, go figure...
# [00:59] * Quits: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-122-133-198-67.kng.mesh.ad.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [01:00] * Quits: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM602ad06daeed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [01:01] * Joins: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM602ad06daeed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
# [01:01] <Hixie_> i don't understand the Fetch API
# [01:02] <Hixie_> what's the first argument to fetch()?
# [01:02] <Hixie_> (also, window.fetch is SO going to clash)
# [01:02] * Quits: Lingo_ (~Lingo@176.73.66.224) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
# [01:03] * Joins: Lingo_ (~Lingo@176.73.66.224)
# [01:03] * Quits: benjamingr (uid23465@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kqbckzmczmugwlgc) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
# [01:05] * Quits: Areks (~Areks@128-72-254-245.broadband.corbina.ru) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [01:06] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@host86-163-17-51.range86-163.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [01:07] * Quits: Lingo_ (~Lingo@176.73.66.224) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [01:14] <Hixie_> what happens if you resolve a promise you've rejected?
# [01:14] <Hixie_> because that's what fetch() does...
# [01:15] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Once a promise has been resolved in some way, any further attempts to resolve it are no-ops.
# [01:16] <SamB> Hixie_: well, did you get that "shock remote victim" protocol deployed in browsers yet?
# [01:16] <Hixie_> i would not support such a protocol
# [01:16] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: still seems bad for a spec to do it, though...
# [01:16] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Oh, certainly; if it's happening, it's a bug.
# [01:16] <SamB> well, I guess you can't use it on the spec author?
# [01:16] <TabAtkins> I was just answering your question. ^_^
# [01:17] <Hixie_> SamB: more effective to file a bug :-)
# [01:17] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: thanks :-)
# [01:17] <SamB> of course, if it's an *accident* rather than a thoroughly bizarre API, that's different
# [01:17] * Quits: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM602ad06daeed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [01:17] <Hixie_> i assume it's always an accident
# [01:18] <Hixie_> so it looks like the fetch API doesn't have an object that represents an ongoing fetch
# [01:18] <TabAtkins> Yeah, double-resolving a promise is always going to be an accident.
# [01:18] <Hixie_> interesting
# [01:18] <Hixie_> and nor does ES6, really
# [01:18] <Hixie_> though they both have promises
# [01:18] <Hixie_> that represent essentially the same thing...
# [01:18] <Hixie_> nope, no sign of conway here, that's for sure
# [01:19] <SamB> conway?
# [01:19] <Hixie_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway's_law
# [01:19] <zewt> as long as it's not "on accident"
# [01:19] <SamB> zewt: you don't think 5-year-olds should be writing specs?
# [01:19] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Fetch resolves the promise with a Response as soon as it's possible to construct one, no?
# [01:20] <zewt> i think the age threshold for people who say "on accident" is ~15, not so much 3
# [01:20] <Hixie_> i really don't understand why fetch() takes both a Request and a RequestInit
# [01:20] <SamB> zewt: well, yes, I was just giving an example of an age at which I think it's actually acceptable
# [01:20] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: well, i'm not sure how one defines "as soon as possible" here
# [01:20] <SamB> I mean, when not in zombie-mode and not talking silly on purpose
# [01:21] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: but if it needs a promise, presumably it's not the entire time the api is doing something
# [01:21] <TabAtkins> I think as soon as the response returns and starts sending data (and redirects have been followed).
# [01:21] <TabAtkins> Well, I guess you have to wait for headers to finish sending.
# [01:21] <TabAtkins> But you can resolve the promise while body is still sending, since you've got a stream for that.
# [01:21] <SamB> so is there a promise or not?
# [01:22] <TabAtkins> SamB: ???
# [01:22] * Quits: bholley (~bholley@corp.mtv2.mozilla.com) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
# [01:22] <Hixie_> my point is just that there's no object that represents the fetch
# [01:22] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: In what way do you want something to "represent the fetch"?
# [01:22] <SamB> Hixie_: hmm, the Response doesn't represent it well enough for you?
# [01:22] <TabAtkins> (We were just discussing today that there's no way to cancel a fetch().)
# [01:22] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: not saying i necessarily want anything, i'm just trying to figure out how to reconcile Fetch and Loader
# [01:23] <Hixie_> SamB: well as tab just pointed out, it doesn't e.g. let you cancel a fetch
# [01:23] <SamB> maybe either the promise or the Response should be acceptable as a representative of the fetch?
# [01:23] <TabAtkins> Okay. Well, the Response object represents the *result* of the fetch. The promise represents the ongoing operation to produce a Response.
# [01:23] <Hixie_> a promise isn't really a useful object in and of itself
# [01:23] <TabAtkins> Most likely, when we figure out how promise subclassing works, fetch()'ll switch to returning a CancelablePromise or something.
# [01:24] <SamB> TabAtkins: will that still be cancelable after it resolves?
# [01:24] <Hixie_> subclassing promises is all kinds of trouble, since it won't chain right
# [01:24] <SamB> or can't you race with the resolve?
# [01:24] <TabAtkins> SamB: Dunno. Depends on semantics.
# [01:25] <TabAtkins> SamB: I mean, once it resolves, you've got a Response. The question is just whether you then must cancel via the Response (to stop receiving body bytes) or whether a cancel on the promise will chain down into the Response.
# [01:25] * Quits: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@89.17.128.127) (Quit: barnabywalters)
# [01:25] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: That's why it hasn't been done yet. It'll happen at some point, though.
# [01:25] <TabAtkins> It's just an engineering problem to work around, after all.
# [01:25] <SamB> what does "chain right" mean
# [01:25] <Hixie_> i don't really see a sane way to do it
# [01:25] <SamB> typeclasses obviously
# [01:25] <Hixie_> but if it's gonna happen, i have use cases for it
# [01:25] <TabAtkins> SamB: returnsASpecialPromise().then(function(x){ return "foo"; });
# [01:26] <Hixie_> in particular i need to apply backpressure to promises
# [01:26] <TabAtkins> Is the promise returned by then() a special promise, or a plain one?
# [01:26] <SamB> TabAtkins: that was basically my question
# [01:26] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: That's for streams to do.
# [01:26] <TabAtkins> SamB: Well, that's the question to answer.
# [01:26] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: Promise.all() is an even bigger problem imho (or whatever it's called in ES's API)
# [01:26] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Yeah, that's definitely an... interesting aspect.
# [01:26] <TabAtkins> And yeah, it's Promise.all()
# [01:27] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: streams are a different issue
# [01:27] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: i mean something like object A is on-demand, and depends on object B which is on-demand
# [01:27] <Hixie_> one way you could do it is say that object A actually depends on object B's "ready" promise
# [01:27] <Hixie_> but then you lose the back-channel for when you tell A to get on with it -- it has no way to trigger B to get on with it.
# [01:28] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Hm, I'm missing some context, since presumably B has some API to load itself as well.
# [01:28] <SamB> again, are you trying to do lazy evaluation or async I/O?
# [01:28] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: e.g. B is an image, A is a style sheet
# [01:28] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: both are "load on demand"
# [01:28] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: A depends on B
# [01:28] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: at some point you say "I need A"
# [01:28] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Like, A()'s ready promise could be a Promise.all() of its internal ready promise and the ready promises of all of its dependencies.
# [01:29] * Joins: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be)
# [01:29] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: the problem is in the opposite direction
# [01:29] <SamB> i.e., those aren't the same thing and trying to make promises handle both is probably a bad idea?
# [01:29] <TabAtkins> But it can hold onto more API than just that promise.
# [01:29] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: how does A tell B "ok, I need you now"
# [01:29] <TabAtkins> Like the loader function for each of its requirements.
# [01:29] <Hixie_> if all it has is a promise for a B
# [01:29] <Hixie_> sure
# [01:29] <Hixie_> that's how i'm going to have to do it since promises don't have subapis
# [01:29] <TabAtkins> And yes, what SamB said. "Please do your work" is a separate thing from "Let me know when your work is done".
# [01:30] <SamB> Hixie_: maybe the promise should be a property of some larger object?
# [01:30] <Hixie_> the larger object is just B
# [01:30] <SamB> okay
# [01:30] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Btw, API idiom for this stuff is a .loaded attribute, and a .load() function.
# [01:30] <SamB> so don't do that thing where you throw away B and keep only the promise?
# [01:31] <TabAtkins> (I expect you'll run the API by Anne/Domenic/etc, but might as well get this right from the beginning.)
# [01:31] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: .loaded, .ready, whichever
# [01:31] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: .loaded and .load() are bad names because they're ambiguous
# [01:31] <SamB> TabAtkins: maybe fetches will need to return something more than just a promise too :-(
# [01:31] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: they don't distinguish the fetch step from the execution step
# [01:31] <SamB> now I'm having evil ideas involving forwarding
# [01:31] <SamB> can you do forwarding in JS?
# [01:31] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Ah, sure. Those are for the loading steps.
# [01:32] <TabAtkins> SamB: Yeah, there's various idioms for it. what do you want to do?
# [01:32] <SamB> TabAtkins: like, fetch could return a fake promise that is actually not a promise
# [01:32] <SamB> but a wrapper around a promise
# [01:32] <TabAtkins> (I do some twisty stuff in Colors to make the APIs extensible more easily.)
# [01:32] <SamB> which can be canceled
# [01:32] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: is a module "loaded" when it's downloaded, translated, instantiated, compiled, has dependencies, evaluated...?
# [01:32] <TabAtkins> SamB: Ah, no, no reason to make that happen.
# [01:32] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Shrug. ^_^
# [01:33] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: that's why i prefer terms like "ready"
# [01:33] <SamB> TabAtkins: I'm sure there would be other reasons one might want to forward method calls
# [01:33] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [01:33] <Hixie_> "ready" more clearly indicates "i'm good to go, but haven't gone"
# [01:33] * Quits: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
# [01:33] <Hixie_> anyway, i'm happy to let y'all bikeshed the terms
# [01:34] <zewt> programmers can't even decide on what to call "null"
# [01:34] * Hixie_ votes for nil
# [01:34] <zewt> one of python's smaller but most idiotic warts is calling null "None"
# [01:35] <zewt> one of those things where: it doesn't matter which one you use, just whatever you do, don't make up something new
# [01:36] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: nil is false, silly.
# [01:36] <zewt> much like null
# [01:36] <Hixie_> nil is the one true way
# [01:36] <SamB> zewt: on the other hand, it took them forever to get around to having named truth/falsehood
# [01:36] <zewt> by the way, does anyone know where the "if(x == false)" thing comes from
# [01:36] <SamB> they just used 0/1 for those for ages
# [01:36] <Hixie_> and it isn't type compatible with false in any sane world :-P
# [01:37] <zewt> re: it's such a ridiculous lack of understanding of the whole concept of a Boolean
# [01:37] <SamB> Hixie_: so you think CL is insane, not just elisp?
# [01:37] <zewt> when i see "if(x == true)" i want to rewrite it to say "if(x == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true == true ==
# [01:37] <Hixie_> all the lisps are insane but that's a whole different issue
# [01:38] <SamB> zewt: there might be some cases where it is actually sane to compare against true/false
# [01:38] <Hixie_> zewt: in js, if (x) and if (x == true) are not the same thing, fwiw
# [01:38] <zewt> i guarantee you not in any of the cases i've seen
# [01:38] <SamB> but I imagine this would mostly have to do with attempting to print them
# [01:38] * Joins: jensnockert (~jensnocke@s83-179-51-171.cust.tele2.se)
# [01:38] <zewt> pretty sure this is entirely a "i saw this somewhere and i'm doing that thing i saw"
# [01:38] <SamB> like, in implementing `print'
# [01:38] <Hixie_> (because == and if () coerce differently)
# [01:38] <jamesr__> #define true 7
# [01:38] <boogyman> zewt: some [insert rant] languages expose *-y evaluations, where 1 == true but 1 !== true
# [01:39] <zewt> mostly i see it in objc, where it's "x == YES"
# [01:39] <SamB> Hixie_: what's the difference?
# [01:39] <Hixie_> i forget the details
# [01:39] <SamB> though actually it's not the same in C, Python, C++, etc. either
# [01:40] <SamB> since e.g. 2 is truthy, but not == 1
# [01:40] <TabAtkins> zewt: null/undefined are falsey, but not == false.
# [01:40] <zewt> (of course, the point wasn't the order of operations, i just wasn't going to calculate how many ('s i should stick in there when I held down shift-insert)
# [01:40] <SamB> or, in python, [] or () or {} would be falsey, but not == 0
# [01:41] <TabAtkins> zewt: And use of "x == false" over "!x" is quite common when you have an API that can return false *or* a falsey value, but the latter is a valid value. Like indexOf().
# [01:41] * Joins: Yuhong (~chatzilla@S0106000f663eac21.vc.shawcable.net)
# [01:41] <Yuhong> I wonder if there is any hope that iOS can stop treating application/xhtml+xml as text/html.
# [01:41] <SamB> (is truthy the wrong word?)
# [01:41] <TabAtkins> Or maybe that one returns -1. Anyway, cases like that occur, where 0 or "" is a valid return value, and false is a failure return value.
# [01:42] <TabAtkins> SamB: Yes it is.
# [01:42] <zewt> TabAtkins: err, indexOf returns -1 ... yeah
# [01:42] <SamB> what's the companion to falsey, then?
# [01:42] <zewt> returning true/false/null or something like that would just be a really bad API
# [01:42] <zewt> and in that case i'd probably say if(x != null && x) / if(x != null && !x)
# [01:42] <zewt> or something along those lines
# [01:42] <TabAtkins> zewt: Shrug, it happens. Blame the lack of Except or Option monads in JS. ^_^
# [01:43] <Hixie_> jorendorff: so... if I have <script type=module dependencies=foo ...>, and at some point I call LoadModule() for that module, how do I prepopulate its dependencies??
# [01:43] * Quits: jensnockert (~jensnocke@s83-179-51-171.cust.tele2.se) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [01:43] <gsnedders> zewt: "yes", "no, "maybe" comes to mind as API design :)
# [01:43] <SamB> TabAtkins: stupid missing typeclasses/HM typesystem ;-P
# [01:44] <TabAtkins> SamB: I'd kill for a Maybe.
# [01:44] <TabAtkins> Also: flatMap on Array.
# [01:44] <SamB> is that concatMap
# [01:44] * gsnedders would kill for a decent strongly typed language with a powerful type system in place of JS
# [01:44] <zewt> i wish it was any of these things in any of the times i've seen that (cough) pattern, but it's all just places returning a Simple Old Boolean
# [01:44] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209)
# [01:44] <Hixie_> i see how to fake it for a non-JS module, but if 'instantiate' returns 'undefined' (as it would for JS), then I don't see how to inject extra dependencies
# [01:44] <SamB> or is flatMap actually >>=
# [01:45] <Hixie_> gsnedders: i wouldn't kill for it, but yeah, i really, really wish the web had strong types
# [01:45] <TabAtkins> SamB: flatMap is >>=, yeah.
# [01:45] <gsnedders> I kinda hope MSR's work on type systems for TypeScript/JS boundaries gets somewhere such that one can create a sane languge which JS maps to a subset thereof
# [01:45] <TabAtkins> Wanna be able to map over an array and return 0+ elements to stitch into the result.
# [01:45] <zewt> i'll take weak typing for web-like work any day
# [01:45] <gsnedders> Which makes replacing JS trivial, as both input languages parse to one bytecode
# [01:46] <gsnedders> Well, "easy" :)
# [01:46] <SamB> I guess flatMap is actually about the most descriptive name I've heard for it
# [01:46] <TabAtkins> SamB: Yeah, you map, then you flatten one level. ^_^
# [01:46] <SamB> I mean neither >>= nor bind actually desscribes it too well
# [01:46] <zewt> gsnedders: call it "*cough* easy"
# [01:46] <TabAtkins> It's a direct transcription of >>= implemented using only the Functor semantics.
# [01:46] <SamB> TabAtkins: you can do that?
# [01:47] <SamB> don't you need some kind of monoid too?
# [01:47] <TabAtkins> SamB: Of course, if you ahve a flatten function as well, that'll convert a nested object into a single level.
# [01:47] <TabAtkins> I don't like referring to that as a monoid, as it's not *in practice* in a language, just in the theoretical sense.
# [01:47] <SamB> heh
# [01:48] <TabAtkins> Yeah, you're technically combining two members of a set into a third member of the set, but really it's reaching into a nested object and generating a new one with the same data, respecting the nested sematnics.
# [01:48] <SamB> my main issue with monoids is there are so darned many to choose from
# [01:48] <TabAtkins> Use more complicated objects, then.
# [01:48] <SamB> like, in arithmatic you've got one over (*) and one over (+)
# [01:48] <TabAtkins> (That doesn't save you from every object having First/Last monoids, of course.)
# [01:48] <TabAtkins> (And a bunch more.)
# [01:49] <zewt> TabAtkins: don't think i've seen ever the word "functor" used outside of C++
# [01:49] <SamB> zewt: it is
# [01:49] <SamB> and it means a totally different thng
# [01:49] <SamB> zewt: something that has a map function, basically
# [01:49] <TabAtkins> zewt: It's a category theory term, unrelated to C++.
# [01:49] <zewt> i mean, it just means (to me) "something that can be called like a function", but that's just nothing special in modern languages (and python just calls that a "callable")
# [01:49] <TabAtkins> In c++ it means "function", basically.
# [01:49] <TabAtkins> But yeah, "Functor" is "has a .map() function, acting in the expected way".
# [01:50] * Joins: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM602ad06daeed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
# [01:50] <zewt> yeah that's the wrong name then
# [01:50] <TabAtkins> Haskell's names are stupid and dumb.
# [01:50] <zewt> ah, missed the "haskell" part
# [01:50] <TabAtkins> I mean, that's the term for that concept from category theory.
# [01:50] <SamB> TabAtkins: in Haskell's defense, those names were not made up by the Haskell people
# [01:50] <TabAtkins> No idea which one came first.
# [01:50] <SamB> they were just re-used from CT
# [01:50] <zewt> sure, but if you're a programming language, the meaning of terms for programming languages resolve first
# [01:50] <TabAtkins> SamB: That's not a defense of Haskell, just an explanation. ^_^ Haskell is still dumb for using dumb math words.
# [01:51] <gsnedders> Broadwell includes H.265 HW acceleration support; next gen video to be dominated by patent-encumbered formats again? *sighs*
# [01:51] <TabAtkins> zewt: Haskell is a programming language, so it appears to have equal rights to the name as c++
# [01:51] <TabAtkins> But anyway, better name is Mappable.
# [01:51] <SamB> TabAtkins: so you want Haskell people to try to make up a comprehensible term?
# [01:51] <TabAtkins> Just like better name for Monoid is Joinable or something.
# [01:51] * Quits: Yuhong (~chatzilla@S0106000f663eac21.vc.shawcable.net) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 31.0/20140716183446])
# [01:52] <zewt> not that it matters, but i'd call c++ a higher-authority language than haskell :P
# [01:52] <SamB> I don't know if Monoid has a better name; there are so darned many different ones
# [01:52] <SamB> zewt: why did C++ misuse CT terms
# [01:52] <TabAtkins> The concept is simple - it's something that can be combined with similar somethings to produce a third something of the same type.
# [01:52] <SamB> zewt: C++ should have called those "callable"
# [01:52] <zewt> (also, it's still a stupid term in C++)
# [01:52] <SamB> like I always have
# [01:54] * Joins: hemanth (~hemanth@122.166.182.198)
# [01:55] <SamB> anyway, yes, Monad and Functor are bad names; Monoid isn't good but it's hard to come up with a good name for such a general structure as a monoid
# [01:55] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com) (Quit: sicking)
# [01:56] <SamB> actually, Monoid may just come from Abstract Algebra
# [01:56] <TabAtkins> When I taught myself what monads are, I just read http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Typeclassopedia and gradually did find+replace on terms as I figured out what they really meant. Made it *way* easier to read.
# [01:57] <TabAtkins> Yeah, monad is basic abstract algebra. A bit weaker than Set.
# [01:57] <TabAtkins> Ring, rather.
# [01:57] <TabAtkins> (Set is way weaker, obvs.)
# [01:57] <SamB> you mean monoid
# [01:57] <TabAtkins> UGH, YES
# [01:57] <TabAtkins> Mon(a|oi)d is stupid.
# [01:57] <hober> there's an axises joke in here somewhere
# [01:58] * Quits: willchan (willchan@nat/google/x-mxvzafbzvfkbkiew) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [01:58] <SamB> TabAtkins: hmm, doesn't every Ring have *two* Monoids?
# [01:59] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.114.218.77) (Quit: othermaciej)
# [01:59] <SamB> one of which ("addition") is evidently also an "abelian group"
# [01:59] <TabAtkins> SamB: Hurp durp, I'm forgetting all my terms. Yes.
# [01:59] <TabAtkins> *Group* is the thing right above monoid.
# [01:59] <SamB> hey, I had to cheat and user Wikipedia
# [01:59] <SamB> *use
# [02:00] <SamB> though I did manage to extrapolate that Group must be the slightly-stronger structure
# [02:00] * Quits: vitorpacheco (~vitor@179.178.230.246.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
# [02:00] <TabAtkins> Yeah, group is just a monoid with an identity element.
# [02:00] <SamB> I can remember what a Monoid is about though
# [02:00] <SamB> hmm, monoids don't have identity already?
# [02:01] <TabAtkins> In programming terms, a monoid is a structure where you can take an array of them and call .reduce(), and it knows what to do automatically.
# [02:01] <TabAtkins> A Group is one of those that can handle being an empty list. ^_^
# [02:01] <TabAtkins> Ugh again, Group is inverses.
# [02:01] <SamB> well, if you pick *which* monoid to use for that type ;-P
# [02:01] <TabAtkins> Semigroup is a monoid without identity.
# [02:01] <TabAtkins> SamB: Assume strong typing, of course.
# [02:02] <TabAtkins> A monoid with a .negate() is a group.
# [02:02] <SamB> strong typing isn't really enough
# [02:02] <TabAtkins> Sure it is. If you know you have a List[Foo], then given an empty list, you can tell that it's an empty *list of Foos*.
# [02:02] <SamB> Well, I mean, if I wanted Monoids in a prover I'd make it possible to have more than one per type
# [02:03] <TabAtkins> SamB: You're screwed then, because First and Last monoids exist for all types.
# [02:03] <TabAtkins> At a mnimum.
# [02:03] <SamB> how would I be screwed?
# [02:03] <TabAtkins> Every type has at least two monoids.
# [02:03] <SamB> anyway, in provers you can usuallly just make the operator a parameter to the "typeclass"
# [02:04] <zewt> a monoid sounds like something you go to the doctor to have removed
# [02:04] <SamB> because dependant typing rocks like that
# [02:04] <TabAtkins> Haskell just gives every object one monoid, and makes you use newtype (iirc?) to cast it into a new one.
# [02:04] <SamB> TabAtkins: yeah
# [02:05] <SamB> so it's not really a good idea to define one for Int or Integer
# [02:05] <JonathanNeal> I get confused calling the same thing a “frame”, ”window”, and “viewport”. Is there one name for that thing when I’m referring to it in CSS? Is it the viewport?
# [02:05] <TabAtkins> Okay, okay, got my terms together again. Any object that can be combined with other objects of the same type to produce a third object of the same type, is a magma.
# [02:05] * Joins: willchan_ (willchan@nat/google/x-ljexhttwxtukyukd)
# [02:05] * Joins: mven_ (~textual@ip68-104-38-84.lv.lv.cox.net)
# [02:05] <TabAtkins> If the combining option is associative, it's a semigroup. If there's an identity element, monoid. Inverses, group. Commutative, abelian group.
# [02:05] <SamB> JonathanNeal: viewport sounds like the thing you want?
# [02:05] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: In CSS, "viewport".
# [02:06] * Quits: willchan_ (willchan@nat/google/x-ljexhttwxtukyukd) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [02:06] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
# [02:06] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: But be careful when talking about SVG, who uses the term to mean something else. :/
# [02:06] * Joins: willchan_ (willchan@nat/google/x-nuguncrlvnxviibx)
# [02:06] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins: In SVG, does viewport mean something different than viewbox?
# [02:06] * Quits: willchan_ (willchan@nat/google/x-nuguncrlvnxviibx) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [02:06] <SamB> TabAtkins: is that a representation of *potential* viewport in SVG, then?
# [02:06] <TabAtkins> Nah, that's what it means.
# [02:07] <JonathanNeal> And in the scenario <div id=“viewport" style=“overflow:scroll”><div id=“something-that-triggers-overflow”> would id=“viewport” also be considered a viewport?
# [02:07] * Joins: willchan_ (willchan@nat/google/x-caaqfytznfphhrpa)
# [02:07] <TabAtkins> SamB: No, SVG just uses "viewport" to mean "the coordinate space generated by an <svg>, or similar element that establishes its own coords".
# [02:07] <SamB> TabAtkins: oh.
# [02:07] <SamB> so they don't actually consider the edges?
# [02:07] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: It's unclear how to port those SVG terms to other CSS layout modes, and I don't really want to. ^_^
# [02:07] <TabAtkins> SamB: What do you mean?
# [02:08] <SamB> using viewport to refer to a coordinate space sounds very confused :-(
# [02:08] * Quits: willchan_ (willchan@nat/google/x-caaqfytznfphhrpa) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [02:08] * Joins: willchan_ (willchan@nat/google/x-gsoyajzbfshhdgmq)
# [02:09] * Quits: willchan_ (willchan@nat/google/x-gsoyajzbfshhdgmq) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [02:09] * Joins: willchan_ (willchan@nat/google/x-iiikyzzwhxchnjlv)
# [02:14] * Joins: vitorpacheco (~vitor@186.214.253.124)
# [02:15] * Quits: jsbell (jsbell@nat/google/x-qhmraxnmqzxmjjzq) (Quit: There's no place like home...)
# [02:17] <SamB> hmm, I guess sodipodi:namedview is not really standard ;-)
# [02:19] <zewt> http://wtf.spec.whatwg.org
# [02:24] * Quits: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM602ad06daeed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [02:24] * Joins: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM602ad06daeed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
# [02:25] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
# [02:26] * Quits: nunnun (~hiro@2001:200:164:48:20c:29ff:fe02:11d2) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
# [02:27] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com) (Quit: tantek)
# [02:27] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@2620:101:80fb:232:ec50:db97:7759:6f6b)
# [02:29] * Quits: mmn (~MattN@192.95.22.58) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [02:29] * Quits: vitorpacheco (~vitor@186.214.253.124) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
# [02:31] * Joins: cgrant (~cgrant@104-54-219-9.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net)
# [02:34] * Joins: mmn (~MattN@192.95.22.58)
# [02:34] * Quits: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM602ad06daeed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
# [02:36] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
# [02:40] * Joins: nunnun (~hiro@2001:200:164:48:20c:29ff:fe02:11d2)
# [02:44] * Quits: bnicholson (~bnicholso@2620:101:80fc:224:3e97:eff:feef:9aba) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [02:47] * Quits: satazor (~satazor@123.87.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [02:50] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@2001:cb0:b202:232:2677:3ff:fece:dc64)
# [03:01] * Quits: hemanth (~hemanth@122.166.182.198) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [03:02] * Joins: bnicholson (~bnicholso@24.130.57.109)
# [03:08] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@2620:101:80fb:232:ec50:db97:7759:6f6b) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
# [03:10] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@2620:101:80fb:224:e1bf:fa0f:42b3:1e4f)
# [03:22] * Joins: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM602ad06daeed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
# [03:22] * Joins: KevinMarks_ (~KevinMark@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [03:25] * Quits: say2joe (~say2joe@rrcs-76-79-68-2.west.biz.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [03:30] * Joins: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be)
# [03:34] * Quits: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
# [03:35] * Joins: Goplat (~goplat@reactos/developer/Goplat)
# [03:40] * Joins: jensnockert (~jensnocke@s83-179-51-171.cust.tele2.se)
# [03:40] * Quits: cgrant (~cgrant@104-54-219-9.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
# [03:44] * Quits: jensnockert (~jensnocke@s83-179-51-171.cust.tele2.se) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
# [03:50] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@2620:101:80fb:224:e1bf:fa0f:42b3:1e4f) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [03:55] * Quits: SamB (~SamB@2001:470:1f07:57:49b6:eef4:57d1:1816) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [03:55] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com) (Quit: sicking)
# [03:56] * Joins: SamB (~SamB@2001:470:1f07:57:2de4:4f3a:51e2:444e)
# [03:57] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
# [04:03] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:80fc:224:7e7a:91ff:fe25:a5a3) (Quit: out)
# [04:04] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@98.234.191.242)
# [04:04] * Quits: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM602ad06daeed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [04:04] * Joins: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM602ad06daeed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
# [04:08] * Quits: dawhite (~dawhite@74.118.22.223) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [04:24] * Quits: nunnun (~hiro@2001:200:164:48:20c:29ff:fe02:11d2) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
# [04:32] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@98.234.191.242) (Quit: weinig)
# [04:37] * Quits: KevinMarks (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [04:37] * Joins: nunnun (~hiro@2001:200:164:48:20c:29ff:fe02:11d2)
# [04:38] * Joins: KevinMarks (~yaaic@172.56.17.71)
# [04:44] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com) (Quit: tantek)
# [04:44] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@50-0-128-161.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
# [04:48] * Quits: KevinMarks (~yaaic@172.56.17.71) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [04:52] * Quits: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM602ad06daeed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [04:53] * Joins: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM602ad06daeed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
# [04:57] * Quits: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM602ad06daeed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [04:58] * Joins: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM602ad06daeed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
# [04:59] * Joins: a-ja (~Instantbi@70.230.150.42)
# [05:03] * Quits: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM602ad06daeed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [05:03] * Joins: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM602ad06daeed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
# [05:04] * Joins: bholley (~bholley@98.210.101.88)
# [05:08] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.sonic.net)
# [05:14] * Quits: boogyman (~boogyman@pdpc/supporter/professional/boogyman) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 31.0/20140716183446])
# [05:15] * Joins: KevinMarks (~yaaic@172.56.17.71)
# [05:20] * Quits: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM602ad06daeed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
# [05:27] * Parts: a-ja (~Instantbi@70.230.150.42)
# [05:29] * Quits: KevinMarks (~yaaic@172.56.17.71) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [05:31] * Joins: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be)
# [05:31] * Joins: KevinMarks (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [05:34] * Quits: richt (~richt@192.121.59.29) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
# [05:35] * Quits: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [05:38] * Joins: richt (~richt@192.121.59.29)
# [05:40] * Joins: jensnockert (~jensnocke@s83-179-51-171.cust.tele2.se)
# [05:44] * Quits: jensnockert (~jensnocke@s83-179-51-171.cust.tele2.se) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [05:47] * Joins: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM602ad06daeed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
# [05:53] * Quits: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM602ad06daeed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [06:08] * Quits: seventh (seventh@128.90.90.221) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [06:09] * Joins: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM602ad06daeed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
# [06:25] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-41.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
# [06:26] * Quits: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM602ad06daeed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [06:26] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
# [06:26] * Joins: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM602ad06daeed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
# [06:41] * Joins: Lingo_ (~Lingo@176.73.66.224)
# [06:42] * Joins: zdobersek (~zan@109.201.154.191)
# [06:47] * Quits: Lingo_ (~Lingo@176.73.66.224) (Quit: Lingo - http://www.lingoirc.com)
# [06:48] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [06:52] * Quits: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM602ad06daeed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [06:52] * Joins: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM602ad06daeed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
# [06:54] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
# [06:57] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-50-136-134-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [07:00] * Joins: BigBangUDR (~Thunderbi@103.249.181.147)
# [07:05] * Quits: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM602ad06daeed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [07:08] * Joins: barneybook_8 (~barneyboo@220-136-88-191.dynamic.hinet.net)
# [07:19] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-50-136-134-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
# [07:20] * Joins: davidyezsetz (~davidyezs@mail1.powerflasher.de)
# [07:26] * Quits: bholley (~bholley@98.210.101.88) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
# [07:30] * Quits: ^esc (~esc-ape@178.115.128.253.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
# [07:32] * Joins: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be)
# [07:36] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-50-136-134-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [07:36] * Joins: benjamingr (uid23465@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-smtwisygwguiywzv)
# [07:36] * Quits: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [07:41] * Joins: jensnockert (~jensnocke@s83-179-51-171.cust.tele2.se)
# [07:45] * Quits: jensnockert (~jensnocke@s83-179-51-171.cust.tele2.se) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [07:51] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@host86-163-17-51.range86-163.btcentralplus.com)
# [07:53] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@c-98-210-159-193.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [07:54] * Quits: Goplat (~goplat@reactos/developer/Goplat) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [08:03] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-41.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
# [08:07] * Quits: halfline (rstrode@nat/redhat/x-izyixbbqiagbiohb) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [08:09] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@50-0-128-161.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
# [08:09] * Joins: halfline (rstrode@nat/redhat/x-uhykpybpqqlfhujg)
# [08:14] * Joins: Ducki (~Ducki@191.233.66.1)
# [08:23] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@host86-163-17-51.range86-163.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [08:33] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [08:37] * Joins: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
# [08:58] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@5.222-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be)
# [09:03] * Joins: pluma (~pluma@cable-78-35-123-164.netcologne.de)
# [09:04] * Quits: pluma (~pluma@cable-78-35-123-164.netcologne.de) (Changing host)
# [09:04] * Joins: pluma (~pluma@unaffiliated/pluma)
# [09:05] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@2001:cb0:b202:232:2677:3ff:fece:dc64) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [09:06] * Joins: markkes (~markkes@62.207.90.201)
# [09:26] * Joins: L0TExp (~Test@85.15.43.126)
# [09:32] * Joins: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be)
# [09:37] * Quits: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [09:40] * Parts: pluma (~pluma@unaffiliated/pluma) ("Leaving")
# [09:56] * Joins: ato (sid16069@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aqhnkhaxhtrkwlkc)
# [09:57] * Quits: hendry (~hendry@sg.webconverger.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [10:02] * Joins: Maurice` (copyman@5ED5617C.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
# [10:06] <zcorpan_> you can't tell in javascript if an HTTPS resource is weak/deprecated right?
# [10:07] * Joins: hendry (~hendry@sg.webconverger.com)
# [10:08] * Quits: moo-_- (miohtama@lakka.kapsi.fi) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [10:13] * zcorpan_ wonders if there are bugs with mixed content and document.domain
# [10:14] * Quits: Amaan (uid4967@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tqkaazbmsxcestio) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
# [10:20] * Joins: moo-_- (miohtama@lakka.kapsi.fi)
# [10:23] <annevk> zcorpan_: I don't think that's exposed
# [10:23] <zcorpan_> annevk: ok
# [10:27] * Quits: nunnun (~hiro@2001:200:164:48:20c:29ff:fe02:11d2) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [10:29] <annevk> I was wondering if there was a difference between certificates for public content and intranet content. As in, can we make CORS-less work over HTTPS? Although I guess if you set up HTTPS, adding one more header is easy...
# [10:35] <foolip> annevk: what's the point of "A descendant browsing context's document has a non-empty fullscreen element stack" and why is it not in the fullscreen element ready check?
# [10:36] <foolip> AFAICT, it's not possible for a descendant to a non-empty stack without an iframe in the current document being on the current stack, so...
# [10:37] <foolip> +have
# [10:38] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@61-121-216-2.bitcat.net)
# [10:39] * Joins: nunnun (~hiro@2001:200:164:48:20c:29ff:fe02:11d2)
# [10:48] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
# [10:52] <annevk> foolip: I guess it catches the case where <iframe> has a child
# [10:53] * Joins: p0wlp (~powlp@212.99.106.196)
# [10:53] <annevk> foolip: I didn't want to make it part of ready check as to minimize cross-process activity, but I could give up on that
# [10:54] * Quits: p0wlp (~powlp@212.99.106.196) (Client Quit)
# [10:56] <annevk> I wish Aryeh Gregor was still around to fix bugs in ranges
# [10:56] <annevk> I'm never quite sure what I'm doing when changing that section
# [11:02] * Quits: aretecode (~aretecode@69.163.36.90) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [11:05] * Joins: aretecode (~aretecode@69.163.36.90)
# [11:11] * Quits: aretecode (~aretecode@69.163.36.90) (Max SendQ exceeded)
# [11:13] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@212.42.170.121)
# [11:14] * Joins: aretecode (~aretecode@69.163.36.90)
# [11:15] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@61-121-216-2.bitcat.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [11:16] <foolip> annevk: how about just checking if there's an ancestor <iframe> and saying no? that wouldn't require any cross-process tinkering
# [11:16] <foolip> and having the child of an iframe go fullscreen doesn't seem useful anyway
# [11:16] * Quits: aretecode (~aretecode@69.163.36.90) (Max SendQ exceeded)
# [11:17] <annevk> foolip: only <iframe> can pass fullscreen capabilities through right?
# [11:17] <foolip> right
# [11:17] <annevk> ok
# [11:20] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2)
# [11:21] <foolip> although if that weren't the case one could say "element which is a browsing context container" or some such
# [11:21] * Joins: satazor (~satazor@239.201.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt)
# [11:25] * Quits: satazor (~satazor@239.201.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [11:26] * Joins: satazor (~satazor@239.201.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt)
# [11:26] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@67.164.23.121) (Quit: rniwa)
# [11:32] <foolip> annevk: should I file a bug or do you have a plan?
# [11:33] <annevk> foolip: fixing now
# [11:33] * Joins: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be)
# [11:33] <foolip> annevk is teh awesome!
# [11:37] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@94.234.170.189)
# [11:38] * Quits: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [11:39] * Quits: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [11:47] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@94.234.170.189) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [11:47] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
# [11:49] * Quits: birtles_ (sid16523@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nbzvxhtrrhbqgzyg) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [11:49] * Quits: mvujovic_ (sid13458@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xpdphypkzbkmcvgu) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [11:50] * Quits: timeless (sid4015@firefox/developer/timeless) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [11:50] * Joins: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@46-239-239-203.tal.is)
# [11:50] * Quits: remysharp (sid4345@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-halzzcxjgjtlmfps) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [11:50] * Quits: astearns (sid15080@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vijpagypgqzrntdd) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [11:51] * Quits: benjamingr (uid23465@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-smtwisygwguiywzv) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [11:51] * Quits: amtiskaw (sid19262@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-htgwazcpjqtbozkn) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [11:51] * Quits: sgalineau (sid26595@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dvsshirrxiciauwx) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [11:51] * Quits: tmfsd (sid26422@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lytxfzqdktcewtio) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [11:51] * Quits: cwilso (sid10206@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hrbyeugpajglmcug) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [11:51] * Quits: cabanier (sid15093@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yhogkulsqdjtrdlt) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [11:52] * Quits: kirjs_ (sid25169@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ajqdsshghtlwggkw) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [11:52] * Quits: mathiasbynens (sid2247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pcifgmwutcgdbuua) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [11:52] * Quits: jkomoros___ (uid7860@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zezgwotwjhjclaqo) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [11:52] * Quits: th2389_ (uid27360@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sabuyiadildutdno) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [11:52] * Joins: sgalineau (sid26595@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-keizgkmpjybkrmvk)
# [11:52] * Joins: amtiskaw (sid19262@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dnytdmngueuckdyr)
# [11:52] * Quits: JonathanNeal (sid5831@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wbwfgbrvvoaotqza) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [11:52] * Joins: remysharp_ (sid4345@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mfwvqgocrqfpsucr)
# [11:53] * Quits: FerasM (sid28672@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kdnqkvfkblyvvvac) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [11:53] * Quits: JakeA (uid3836@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fzlljrmcjmvkhxqf) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [11:53] * Joins: timeless (sid4015@firefox/developer/timeless)
# [11:53] * Quits: Phae (sid455@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-oqpathrpqjxnrhrc) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [11:53] * Joins: cwilso_ (sid10206@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qjtzcghbyyqjsttc)
# [11:54] * Quits: sspi (uid34681@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-azzdzgvkoctjeomh) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [11:54] * Quits: calvinmetcalf (uid25915@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-puworleymuwukpor) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [11:54] * Quits: parshap (sid18846@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mfjfedkbwnchbadc) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [11:54] * Joins: cabanier (sid15093@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qztmyexuniofktdn)
# [11:54] * Quits: abarth (sid5294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sxecudojnghqfcoy) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [11:54] * Quits: wycats (sid79@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zfgunbczjcakmbpc) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [11:54] * Quits: tobie (sid5692@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-clmymbpgujcccuxw) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [11:54] * Quits: dfreedm (sid7859@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lhxvxxgmrabeogih) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [11:54] * Quits: esprehn (sid10445@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tyquwmvtxhxccvmj) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [11:54] * Quits: ojan (sid5519@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eskwtinrhdkrqqer) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [11:54] * Joins: kirjs_ (sid25169@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-curkqovmfwgrohfx)
# [11:54] * Joins: th2389_ (uid27360@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xhlbcygkrwfawioc)
# [11:54] * Quits: scottjehl_____ (sid3055@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qogivmqusliuzkyq) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [11:55] * Quits: Garbee (uid21171@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ksysentriaahmwma) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
# [11:55] * Quits: arpitab__ (uid10516@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gcflmixexwxhtgrg) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [11:55] * Joins: birtles_ (sid16523@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xtyjdddzartamfzu)
# [11:55] * Joins: FerasM_ (sid28672@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vhmxnyiunmeaaudj)
# [11:55] * Quits: hayato (sid20728@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vizpnzajuivrncal) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [11:55] * Quits: mattur (sid16049@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zzqjchwxyxtqlmso) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
# [11:56] <foolip> annevk: "The context object" should be <i>element</i> since we're not in requestFullscreen() anymore
# [11:56] * Quits: twisted` (sid6794@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gnxfyywjkoxkgarx) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [11:56] <annevk> shit
# [11:56] * Quits: jorendorff (sid28423@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-srpuhwurwnmyzrzy) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [11:56] * Quits: slightlyoff (sid1768@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mwpearmzwatcxicy) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [11:56] * Quits: TabAtkins (sid11559@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jnwllorwwjruowfo) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [11:56] * Quits: cbiesinger_ (sid8099@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-oikzjlszwhiijbqo) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [11:56] * Quits: bterlson (sid23757@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wklyulvvawpduvnc) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [11:56] <annevk> copied that from the previous bullet point which is also wrong
# [11:57] * Quits: amtiskaw (sid19262@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dnytdmngueuckdyr) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [11:57] * Quits: scheib (sid4467@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sgqtoynnygrorjah) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [11:57] <foolip> oh look, I didn't notice that
# [11:57] * Joins: wycats (sid79@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lnegpnlrdzhdpuyc)
# [11:57] * Joins: mvujovic_ (sid13458@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vkbjesayzkjlxyxa)
# [11:57] * Quits: abucur (sid19072@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-agbdawxtcmjmhgpg) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [11:57] * Quits: Domenic (sid10976@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gqgeorftftshnuij) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [11:57] * Quits: _ezequiel_ (sid18787@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xjppkendkgdsuyrf) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [11:57] * Quits: arv_ (sid4269@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zqjzvujogpuwkvot) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [11:57] * Quits: tyoshino_____ (sid19222@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bmbctdgokliwljoo) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
# [11:57] * Joins: tobie (sid5692@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wnxzlinyzaxdyagm)
# [11:57] * Joins: jkomoros___ (uid7860@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hrsdpaimlckzanql)
# [11:57] * Joins: JakeA (uid3836@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fronohooftacrjui)
# [11:57] * Joins: dfreedm (sid7859@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cqkmvfjwvogvzpmp)
# [11:57] * Quits: sgalineau (sid26595@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-keizgkmpjybkrmvk) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [11:58] * Quits: aklein (sid4454@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-efqkrjwputypgclb) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
# [11:58] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
# [11:58] * Quits: cfq_ (sid18398@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-flulcxpawljrhsok) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [11:58] * Quits: timeless (sid4015@firefox/developer/timeless) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [11:58] * Joins: abarth|gardener (sid5294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bohtffkibpruegmd)
# [11:58] <annevk> fixed both
# [11:58] * Joins: arpitab__ (uid10516@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zetiauloruhfuqhm)
# [11:58] * Quits: matijs (sid2278@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-thscvhmnnplvhvcl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [11:58] * Quits: dglazkov_ (sid4270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fpxmibztqknhkctg) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [11:58] <foolip> confirmed
# [11:59] <foolip> would you mind making "Fullscreen is not supported." a per-element thing?
# [11:59] * Quits: krit (sid15081@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qzdbbdnqlhmtilsk) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [11:59] <foolip> currently Blink has a setting where only <video> elements can go fullscreen in Android WebView
# [11:59] * Joins: sspi (sid34681@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ijphvhhviejbpmgl)
# [11:59] * Quits: birtles_ (sid16523@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xtyjdddzartamfzu) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [12:00] * Quits: kirjs_ (sid25169@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-curkqovmfwgrohfx) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [12:00] * Quits: phuu (sid7721@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ppdfyjucuddmldwk) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [12:00] * Joins: tmfsd (sid26422@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gwaetfdicqijechx)
# [12:00] * Quits: daleharvey (sid513@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eeywwfezqzppxbhx) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [12:00] * Quits: wanderview (sid22777@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eirzxptsddgendyb) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [12:01] * Quits: FerasM_ (sid28672@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vhmxnyiunmeaaudj) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [12:01] <foolip> if you feel like it, it's supposedly temporary...
# [12:01] * Joins: calvinmetcalf (uid25915@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mulnmlrqqqiingyg)
# [12:01] * Quits: th2389_ (uid27360@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xhlbcygkrwfawioc) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [12:01] * Joins: sgalineau (sid26595@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vzyzvgtlcdqskeur)
# [12:01] * Joins: hayato_gardening (sid20728@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ujwlalufirnewzao)
# [12:01] * Joins: TabAtkins (sid11559@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bpycejmmibsfrnhb)
# [12:01] * Joins: JonathanNeal (sid5831@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wdgijdpphpbrtgmh)
# [12:01] * Joins: krit_ (sid15081@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ksztgzmdsokuevsc)
# [12:01] * Joins: Ziggy (sid18787@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-acusodlrwudsdiws)
# [12:02] * Quits: cwilso_ (sid10206@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qjtzcghbyyqjsttc) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [12:02] * Joins: tyoshino______ (sid19222@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dvstvxeqgiiguuyt)
# [12:02] * Joins: arv_ (sid4269@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nggdfretyybabrgw)
# [12:02] * Joins: astearns (sid15080@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fgmwbbdfaejsssvf)
# [12:02] * Joins: abucur (sid19072@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qvttyyzacksuenay)
# [12:02] * Joins: slightlyoff (sid1768@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dwkyrqjyboernyaz)
# [12:02] * Joins: ojanm (sid5519@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nmpggfmzflxvxvyx)
# [12:02] * Joins: aklein_ (sid4454@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-azvremlcuvgsxyfb)
# [12:02] * Joins: esprehn (sid10445@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-exexaqcypzoiwrry)
# [12:02] * Ziggy is now known as Guest40758
# [12:02] * Quits: jkomoros___ (uid7860@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hrsdpaimlckzanql) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [12:02] * Quits: wycats (sid79@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lnegpnlrdzhdpuyc) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
# [12:02] * Joins: mattur (sid16049@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gdjdsuxbbnpmraey)
# [12:02] * Joins: Phaw (sid455@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tlmuakgkclthahen)
# [12:02] * Joins: Domenic (sid10976@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xbfnxuxnzqrthflx)
# [12:02] * Joins: mathiasbynens (sid2247@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vtcdrkvuewgnakvy)
# [12:02] * Quits: mvujovic_ (sid13458@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vkbjesayzkjlxyxa) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [12:02] * Joins: bterlson (sid23757@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mswnupgytlbhokyg)
# [12:02] <annevk> hmm, discuss on WHATWG if we want to keep that?
# [12:02] * Joins: cfq_ (sid18398@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bihkxmbbfcqyprsu)
# [12:02] * Joins: Garbee (uid21171@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vrxcuvbomlfhygaj)
# [12:03] <annevk> if that actually remains the case we might want some API to figure out for which elements you can actually use it
# [12:03] * Joins: jorendorff (sid28423@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bunhuxnzaqmeoald)
# [12:03] * Joins: matijs (sid2278@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gbszipqlwztdwsud)
# [12:03] * Joins: kirjs_ (sid25169@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fjjglznckkyoaehw)
# [12:03] * Joins: cbiesinger_ (sid8099@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wybwxwkrmircyyqu)
# [12:03] * Joins: parshap (sid18846@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dwwemzvrvwvdsddj)
# [12:03] * Joins: dglazkov_ (sid4270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ddbldgpyspzrfivf)
# [12:03] * Joins: wanderview (sid22777@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xdsaucszwilbqvyd)
# [12:03] * Joins: birtles_ (sid16523@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tprnyeoekarrfyfe)
# [12:03] * Joins: scheib (sid4467@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pqkggggkymiidoqj)
# [12:04] * Joins: phuu (sid7721@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xhbpvwckubvquoky)
# [12:04] * Joins: daleharvey__ (sid513@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vlktjwytdktlddgr)
# [12:04] <foolip> makes sense
# [12:04] * Joins: th2389_ (uid27360@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hzwpuazkvvcywuji)
# [12:04] * Joins: scottjehl_____ (sid3055@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hzskwqryrgxjgnva)
# [12:04] * Joins: timeless (sid4015@firefox/developer/timeless)
# [12:04] * Joins: amtiskaw (sid19262@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fbrmadtfdppnagzu)
# [12:04] <foolip> if it remains the case for long I'll come back to it
# [12:04] * Joins: FerasM_ (sid28672@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gvjtjfpuzatopuei)
# [12:04] <foolip> now lunch
# [12:04] * Joins: mvujovic_ (sid13458@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tnihxrvexjdjufys)
# [12:04] * Joins: jkomoros___ (uid7860@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ygbdrmzynintmury)
# [12:05] * Joins: cwilso_ (sid10206@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fvzpwqhclklvmley)
# [12:05] * Joins: wycats (sid79@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gqzbsgtdwqmdntdg)
# [12:10] * Joins: twisted` (sid6794@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uuoltbonjauzladf)
# [12:14] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@node-19bp.pool-101-109.dynamic.totbb.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
# [12:17] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
# [12:19] * Quits: satazor (~satazor@239.201.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [12:19] * Joins: satazor (~satazor@239.201.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt)
# [12:20] * Joins: satazor_ (~satazor@bl6-193-40.dsl.telepac.pt)
# [12:21] * Quits: satazor (~satazor@239.201.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [12:21] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
# [12:22] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@node-zwr.pool-180-180.dynamic.totbb.net)
# [12:24] * Joins: satazor (~satazor@bl6-193-40.dsl.telepac.pt)
# [12:25] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2)
# [12:25] * Quits: nunnun (~hiro@2001:200:164:48:20c:29ff:fe02:11d2) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
# [12:27] * Quits: satazor_ (~satazor@bl6-193-40.dsl.telepac.pt) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [12:33] * Joins: SamB__ (SamB@207-172-123-137.c3-0.upd-ubr1.trpr-upd.pa.cable.rcn.com)
# [12:33] * Quits: SamB (~SamB@2001:470:1f07:57:2de4:4f3a:51e2:444e) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [12:38] * Joins: nunnun (~hiro@2001:200:164:48:20c:29ff:fe02:11d2)
# [12:47] * Quits: mven_ (~textual@ip68-104-38-84.lv.lv.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [12:52] * Quits: wirepair (fbi@206.223.224.3) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
# [12:53] * Joins: mven_ (~textual@ip68-104-38-84.lv.lv.cox.net)
# [12:56] * Joins: wirepair (fbi@206.223.224.3)
# [12:58] * Quits: SamB__ (SamB@207-172-123-137.c3-0.upd-ubr1.trpr-upd.pa.cable.rcn.com) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
# [12:58] * Joins: SamB (~SamB@2001:470:1f07:57:e03d:cf83:e6fb:5a67)
# [13:04] * Quits: mven_ (~textual@ip68-104-38-84.lv.lv.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
# [13:04] * Quits: davidyezsetz (~davidyezs@mail1.powerflasher.de) (Quit: davidyezsetz)
# [13:06] * Quits: satazor (~satazor@bl6-193-40.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [13:07] * Joins: satazor (~satazor@239.201.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt)
# [13:08] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
# [13:09] * Joins: davidyezsetz (~davidyezs@mail1.powerflasher.de)
# [13:09] * Joins: mven_ (~textual@ip68-104-38-84.lv.lv.cox.net)
# [13:09] * Quits: mven_ (~textual@ip68-104-38-84.lv.lv.cox.net) (Max SendQ exceeded)
# [13:10] * Joins: benjamingr (uid23465@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tjcilzhumtiokarg)
# [13:12] * Quits: satazor (~satazor@239.201.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [13:15] * Joins: satazor (~satazor@bl6-193-40.dsl.telepac.pt)
# [13:19] * Quits: davidyezsetz (~davidyezs@mail1.powerflasher.de) (Quit: davidyezsetz)
# [13:23] * Quits: barneybook_8 (~barneyboo@220-136-88-191.dynamic.hinet.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [13:27] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
# [13:28] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2)
# [13:34] * Joins: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be)
# [13:36] * Quits: satazor (~satazor@bl6-193-40.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [13:36] * Joins: satazor (~satazor@bl6-193-40.dsl.telepac.pt)
# [13:38] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@node-zwr.pool-180-180.dynamic.totbb.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [13:39] * Quits: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [13:41] * Quits: satazor (~satazor@bl6-193-40.dsl.telepac.pt) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [13:42] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@node-zwr.pool-180-180.dynamic.totbb.net)
# [13:52] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@c-98-210-159-193.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: sicking)
# [13:52] * Joins: scor (scor@nat/acquia/x-fushkomtsosqgdid)
# [13:52] * Quits: scor (scor@nat/acquia/x-fushkomtsosqgdid) (Changing host)
# [13:52] * Joins: scor (scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
# [13:54] * Joins: felipedefarias (~felipedef@189-19-85-225.dsl.telesp.net.br)
# [13:58] * Joins: davidyezsetz (~davidyezs@mail1.powerflasher.de)
# [14:09] * Joins: hemanth (~hemanth@122.166.182.198)
# [14:18] * Quits: scrollback (scrollback@conference/jsconf/x-pmkfpidqbressyvl) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [14:20] * Joins: scrollback (scrollback@conference/jsconf/x-skfvieczjoaezkku)
# [14:22] * Quits: L0TExp (~Test@85.15.43.126) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [14:25] * Quits: nunnun (~hiro@2001:200:164:48:20c:29ff:fe02:11d2) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [14:28] * Joins: tj_vantoll (~Adium@2601:4:5380:2ec:ec89:7930:2a3b:636c)
# [14:31] * Quits: davidyezsetz (~davidyezs@mail1.powerflasher.de) (Quit: davidyezsetz)
# [14:38] * Joins: nunnun (~hiro@2001:200:164:48:20c:29ff:fe02:11d2)
# [14:41] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
# [14:46] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2)
# [15:06] * Joins: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM602ad06daeed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
# [15:07] * Quits: kochi1 (~kochi@2401:fa00:4:1000:d8a8:b9f9:f8e7:c853) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [15:07] * Quits: kochi (~kochi@2401:fa00:4:1000:2d05:c561:421b:607f) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [15:10] * Joins: cbr_ (~admin@145.36.150.83.chzhher77.rootnet.ch)
# [15:10] * Quits: felipedefarias (~felipedef@189-19-85-225.dsl.telesp.net.br) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [15:13] * Joins: kochi (~kochi@2401:fa00:4:1000:8974:c0d0:1827:e589)
# [15:14] * Quits: tj_vantoll (~Adium@2601:4:5380:2ec:ec89:7930:2a3b:636c) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [15:14] * Joins: kochi1 (~kochi@2401:fa00:4:1000:8974:c0d0:1827:e589)
# [15:17] * Quits: ricea (~ricea@2401:fa00:4:1000:25fb:96e5:fd65:51f1) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [15:18] * Joins: mpaarating (~mpaaratin@rrcs-97-78-217-146.se.biz.rr.com)
# [15:19] * Quits: falken (falken@nat/google/x-rbuigteulkxmfkmp) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
# [15:19] * Quits: yoichio (yoichio@nat/google/x-vvhffwcqhidzrqmp) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [15:19] * Quits: yutak (~yutak@2401:fa00:4:1000:bcd1:9758:e117:406f) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [15:20] * Joins: tj_vantoll (~Adium@c-98-250-130-237.hsd1.mi.comcast.net)
# [15:21] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
# [15:24] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2)
# [15:24] * Joins: ricea (~ricea@2401:fa00:4:1000:b43f:9315:951a:a023)
# [15:25] * Joins: yutak (~yutak@2401:fa00:4:1000:1176:5dbd:f13a:e42)
# [15:25] * Joins: newtron_ (~newtron@199.71.174.203)
# [15:26] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2) (Client Quit)
# [15:28] * Joins: falken (falken@nat/google/x-cepaukkphptobwwm)
# [15:29] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2)
# [15:30] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2) (Client Quit)
# [15:30] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@121-99-142-163.bng1.tvc.orcon.net.nz)
# [15:32] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2)
# [15:33] <annevk> JakeA: can we get a "needs input" label for issues?
# [15:33] <annevk> JakeA: something that indicates it needs input from others before we can proceed?
# [15:34] * Joins: boogyman (~boogyman@38.88.11.131)
# [15:34] * Quits: boogyman (~boogyman@38.88.11.131) (Changing host)
# [15:34] * Joins: boogyman (~boogyman@pdpc/supporter/professional/boogyman)
# [15:35] * Joins: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be)
# [15:36] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-44-207.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
# [15:36] <JakeA> annevk: added
# [15:36] * Joins: abinader (sid21713@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fvobwacaiqncqohj)
# [15:37] <annevk> cool
# [15:37] * Joins: satazor (~satazor@239.201.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt)
# [15:40] * Quits: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
# [15:42] * Quits: satazor (~satazor@239.201.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
# [15:43] * Quits: hemanth (~hemanth@122.166.182.198) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [15:44] * Joins: satazor (~satazor@bl6-193-40.dsl.telepac.pt)
# [15:44] * Quits: BigBangUDR (~Thunderbi@103.249.181.147) (Quit: BigBangUDR)
# [15:46] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@host86-163-17-51.range86-163.btcentralplus.com)
# [15:47] * Joins: davidyezsetz (~davidyezs@mail1.powerflasher.de)
# [15:52] * Joins: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
# [15:56] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
# [15:58] * Quits: davidyezsetz (~davidyezs@mail1.powerflasher.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [16:01] * Joins: davidyezsetz (~davidyezs@mail1.powerflasher.de)
# [16:05] * Quits: satazor (~satazor@bl6-193-40.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [16:08] * Joins: satazor (~satazor@239.201.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt)
# [16:22] * krit_ is now known as krit
# [16:24] * Joins: rafaelrinaldi (~textual@B12E8B43.dynamic.spo.dsl.tesa.net.br)
# [16:25] * Quits: nunnun (~hiro@2001:200:164:48:20c:29ff:fe02:11d2) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [16:28] * Joins: bholley (~bholley@98.210.101.88)
# [16:38] * Joins: nunnun (~hiro@2001:200:164:48:20c:29ff:fe02:11d2)
# [16:39] * Quits: rafaelrinaldi (~textual@B12E8B43.dynamic.spo.dsl.tesa.net.br) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
# [16:39] * Joins: rafaelrinaldi (~textual@B12E8B43.dynamic.spo.dsl.tesa.net.br)
# [16:41] * Joins: ehsan_ (~ehsan@2001:450:1f:224:b5f8:10eb:bb44:ccdb)
# [16:45] * Quits: ajpiano (~ajpiano@li98-57.members.linode.com) (Excess Flood)
# [16:47] * Joins: ajpiano (~ajpiano@li98-57.members.linode.com)
# [16:49] * Quits: scor (scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
# [16:50] * Quits: satazor (~satazor@239.201.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [16:51] * Joins: satazor (~satazor@bl6-193-40.dsl.telepac.pt)
# [16:51] <annevk> I wrote http://annevankesteren.nl/2014/08/asynchronicity so we have a pointer when people are not queuing tasks or some such
# [16:51] <annevk> Suggestions welcome
# [16:55] * Quits: satazor (~satazor@bl6-193-40.dsl.telepac.pt) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [16:57] <jorendorff> Hixie_: is there a way to clone/edit that huge graph you posted?
# [16:57] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
# [16:58] <Domenic> annevk: related are the two sections starting at https://github.com/w3ctag/promises-guide#note-asynchronous-steps-explicitly
# [16:58] * Quits: davidyezsetz (~davidyezs@mail1.powerflasher.de) (Quit: davidyezsetz)
# [16:59] <jorendorff> Hixie_: putting the pipeline in the right order should help
# [16:59] * Joins: newbie (~kvirc@rs.gridnine.com)
# [16:59] <Domenic> annevk: your post approaches it from a different angle though which is probably more useful as a conceptual intro
# [16:59] <Domenic> annevk: e.g. talking about things in parallel and how that could impact code
# [17:00] * newbie is now known as Guest45737
# [17:00] * Quits: bholley (~bholley@98.210.101.88) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
# [17:00] <annevk> I guess I can add a pointer for more detailed instructions
# [17:00] * Guest45737 is now known as Areks
# [17:02] <annevk> done
# [17:02] <Domenic> I think I'll add a pointer to yours for more conceptual background :)
# [17:02] * Joins: davidyezsetz (~davidyezs@mail1.powerflasher.de)
# [17:03] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [17:06] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@50-0-128-161.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
# [17:07] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
# [17:08] * Joins: satazor (~satazor@bl6-193-40.dsl.telepac.pt)
# [17:14] * Joins: bholley (~bholley@98.210.101.88)
# [17:15] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
# [17:26] * Quits: KevinMarks_ (~KevinMark@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [17:26] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
# [17:32] * Quits: KevinMarks (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [17:32] * Quits: markkes (~markkes@62.207.90.201) (Quit: markkes)
# [17:33] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@host86-163-17-51.range86-163.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [17:36] * Joins: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be)
# [17:40] * Quits: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
# [17:43] * Joins: dawhite (~dawhite@74.118.22.223)
# [17:47] * Quits: davidyezsetz (~davidyezs@mail1.powerflasher.de) (Quit: davidyezsetz)
# [17:50] * Joins: WeirdAl (~chatzilla@c-174-62-86-95.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [17:54] * Parts: cbr_ (~admin@145.36.150.83.chzhher77.rootnet.ch)
# [17:57] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
# [17:59] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
# [17:59] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
# [18:01] * Quits: bholley (~bholley@98.210.101.88) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
# [18:04] <annevk> https://twitter.com/W3CProphet/status/499213295023190017 I wonder what I'm missing
# [18:05] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209)
# [18:07] <caitp> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
# [18:09] * Joins: jernoble|laptop (~jernoble@76.74.153.49)
# [18:13] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
# [18:14] * Joins: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-122-133-198-67.kng.mesh.ad.jp)
# [18:15] * Quits: WeirdAl (~chatzilla@c-174-62-86-95.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 31.0/20140716183446])
# [18:16] * Quits: jernoble|laptop (~jernoble@76.74.153.49) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
# [18:17] * Quits: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-122-133-198-67.kng.mesh.ad.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [18:18] * Joins: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@172.56.17.165)
# [18:20] * Joins: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-122-133-198-67.kng.mesh.ad.jp)
# [18:21] * Joins: KevinMarks2 (~yaaic@172.56.17.165)
# [18:23] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@17.202.46.221) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
# [18:24] * Quits: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-122-133-198-67.kng.mesh.ad.jp) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
# [18:25] * Quits: willchan_ (willchan@nat/google/x-iiikyzzwhxchnjlv) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [18:25] * Joins: willchan (willchan@nat/google/x-rysaezyhbizrxixx)
# [18:26] * Quits: willchan (willchan@nat/google/x-rysaezyhbizrxixx) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [18:26] * Joins: willchan (willchan@nat/google/x-dtckktubyxjuihfl)
# [18:27] * Quits: nunnun (~hiro@2001:200:164:48:20c:29ff:fe02:11d2) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
# [18:30] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [18:30] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209)
# [18:32] * Joins: Amaan (uid4967@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-udbanucedbnbllfz)
# [18:32] * Joins: BigBangUDR (~Thunderbi@115.246.118.117)
# [18:32] * Parts: adactio (~adactio@212.42.170.121)
# [18:32] * Quits: KevinMarks2 (~yaaic@172.56.17.165) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [18:32] * Quits: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@172.56.17.165) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [18:33] * Joins: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@172.56.17.165)
# [18:34] * Quits: BigBangUDR (~Thunderbi@115.246.118.117) (Client Quit)
# [18:34] * Joins: davidyezsetz (~davidyezs@mail1.powerflasher.de)
# [18:37] * Quits: bnicholson (~bnicholso@24.130.57.109) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
# [18:39] * Quits: davidyezsetz (~davidyezs@mail1.powerflasher.de) (Client Quit)
# [18:39] * Joins: nunnun (~hiro@2001:200:164:48:20c:29ff:fe02:11d2)
# [18:39] <SimonSapin> Hixie_: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/scripting.html#selectors "Everything else (attribute values on HTML elements, IDs and classes in no-quirks mode and limited-quirks mode, and element names, attribute names, and attribute values in XML documents)" I don’t understand this. There are two "and", and it seems to leave attribute values on non-HTML elements in HTML documents
# [18:39] <SimonSapin> undefined
# [18:42] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@89.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
# [18:43] * Joins: ap (~ap@17.202.44.214)
# [18:43] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba@89.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [18:43] * Joins: zcorpan__ (~zcorpan@c-5eeaaa35-74736162.cust.telenor.se)
# [18:45] * Quits: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@172.56.17.165) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [18:45] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [18:45] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Which set of multiple "and"s is confusing you?
# [18:46] * Joins: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@172.56.17.165)
# [18:46] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: in the parentheses I quoted
# [18:46] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: There are four "and"s there. ^_^
# [18:46] <SimonSapin> uh, maybe there is implied grouping, but it’s not clear what that should be
# [18:47] * Joins: KevinMarks_ (~KevinMark@172.56.16.96)
# [18:47] <TabAtkins> (attribute values on html elements), (ids and classes) in (no-quirks mode and limited-quirks mode), and (element names, attribute names, and attribute values in XML documents).
# [18:49] * Joins: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-122-133-198-67.kng.mesh.ad.jp)
# [18:49] <SimonSapin> ((element names, attribute names, and attribute values) in XML documents) or (element names, attribute names, and (attribute values in XML documents)) ?
# [18:49] <Ms2ger> Former
# [18:50] <TabAtkins> Definitely former.
# [18:50] * Quits: boogyman (~boogyman@pdpc/supporter/professional/boogyman) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [18:50] * Quits: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@172.56.17.165) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [18:51] * Quits: satazor (~satazor@bl6-193-40.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [18:51] <SimonSapin> ok, so attr values on non-HTML elements in HTML documents is not in "everything else"
# [18:52] <Ms2ger> I'm not sure if the parenthetical is supposed to be exhaustive
# [18:52] <SimonSapin> well
# [18:53] <SimonSapin> in that case it sounds better to remove it entirely
# [18:54] * Quits: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-122-133-198-67.kng.mesh.ad.jp) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
# [18:54] * Quits: KevinMarks_ (~KevinMark@172.56.16.96) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [18:56] <Ms2ger> Yeah
# [18:56] <Ms2ger> File a bug?
# [18:57] * Joins: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@172.56.16.96)
# [18:58] * Joins: KevinMarks2 (~yaaic@172.56.16.96)
# [18:58] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
# [18:59] * Joins: satazor (~satazor@239.201.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt)
# [19:04] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [19:05] <SimonSapin> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26560
# [19:05] <SimonSapin> yay bugzilla line breaking
# [19:05] * Joins: bnicholson (~bnicholso@2620:101:80fc:224:7e7a:91ff:fe25:a5c6)
# [19:06] * Joins: Areks_home (~Areks@128-72-254-245.broadband.corbina.ru)
# [19:07] * Joins: jensnockert (~jensnocke@s83-179-51-171.cust.tele2.se)
# [19:08] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209)
# [19:09] <caitp> didn't they have a gsoc project for making bugzilla support markdown? maybe the kids will improve the linewrapping, too :p
# [19:10] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
# [19:11] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@c-98-210-159-193.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [19:11] <Hixie_> SimonSapin: generally speaking, parentheticals in prose i write aren't normative
# [19:11] * Joins: boogyman (~boogyman@38.88.11.131)
# [19:11] * Quits: boogyman (~boogyman@38.88.11.131) (Changing host)
# [19:11] * Joins: boogyman (~boogyman@pdpc/supporter/professional/boogyman)
# [19:11] <Hixie_> SimonSapin: or rather, they're intended to be redundant with other text
# [19:12] <Hixie_> SimonSapin: so in this case, since attributes in non-XML elements are already covered by the earlier paragraph, they're not "everything else"
# [19:13] <SimonSapin> Hixie_: the earlier paragraph is about attr names, not values
# [19:13] <Hixie_> "attribute values on HTML elements" is the first thing listed
# [19:13] * Joins: BigBangUDR (~Thunderbi@115.246.118.117)
# [19:13] <Hixie_> in the parenthetical
# [19:16] * Quits: BigBangUDR (~Thunderbi@115.246.118.117) (Client Quit)
# [19:23] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:80fc:224:7e7a:91ff:fe25:a5a3)
# [19:24] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [19:25] * Quits: KevinMarks2 (~yaaic@172.56.16.96) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
# [19:26] * Joins: KevinMarks2 (~yaaic@172.56.16.96)
# [19:29] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209)
# [19:33] * Joins: bholley (~bholley@98.210.101.88)
# [19:33] * Quits: KevinMarks2 (~yaaic@172.56.16.96) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [19:37] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
# [19:37] * Joins: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be)
# [19:38] * Quits: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@46-239-239-203.tal.is) (Quit: barnabywalters)
# [19:41] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@17.202.45.163)
# [19:42] * Quits: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
# [19:42] * Joins: KevinMarks2 (~yaaic@2607:fb90:504:e4c3:6efd:dd4c:5a6b:a953)
# [19:45] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-41.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
# [19:47] * Quits: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@172.56.16.96) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [19:48] * Joins: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-122-133-198-67.kng.mesh.ad.jp)
# [19:50] * Quits: tj_vantoll (~Adium@c-98-250-130-237.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [19:50] * Quits: KevinMarks2 (~yaaic@2607:fb90:504:e4c3:6efd:dd4c:5a6b:a953) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [19:53] * Quits: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-122-133-198-67.kng.mesh.ad.jp) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
# [19:57] * aklein_ is now known as aklein
# [19:57] * Quits: aklein (sid4454@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-azvremlcuvgsxyfb)
# [19:57] * Joins: aklein (sid4454@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rlldeggakvfdjdyj)
# [19:57] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
# [19:58] * Joins: jeremyj (~jeremyj@17.202.49.56)
# [20:00] * Joins: jernoble_ (~jernoble@17.202.46.221)
# [20:01] * Joins: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@89.17.128.127)
# [20:03] <Hixie_> jorendorff: looks like i can share it with you?
# [20:06] * Quits: bholley (~bholley@98.210.101.88) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
# [20:06] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.114.216.157)
# [20:07] * Joins: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron)
# [20:07] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
# [20:09] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [20:10] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@50-0-128-161.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
# [20:10] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209)
# [20:11] * Quits: ehsan_ (~ehsan@2001:450:1f:224:b5f8:10eb:bb44:ccdb) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [20:11] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.114.216.157) (Quit: weinig)
# [20:14] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.102)
# [20:14] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-50-136-134-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
# [20:15] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@host86-163-17-51.range86-163.btcentralplus.com)
# [20:15] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.114.216.157)
# [20:15] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.114.216.157) (Client Quit)
# [20:15] * Quits: rafaelrinaldi (~textual@B12E8B43.dynamic.spo.dsl.tesa.net.br) (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
# [20:17] * Joins: scor (~scor@c-24-2-162-32.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
# [20:17] * Quits: scor (~scor@c-24-2-162-32.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Changing host)
# [20:17] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
# [20:17] * Joins: say2joe (~say2joe@rrcs-76-79-68-2.west.biz.rr.com)
# [20:19] * Joins: rafaelrinaldi (~textual@B12E8B43.dynamic.spo.dsl.tesa.net.br)
# [20:21] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [20:21] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@c-98-210-159-193.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: sicking)
# [20:23] * Quits: jeremyj (~jeremyj@17.202.49.56) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
# [20:25] * Joins: tj_vantoll (~Adium@2601:4:5380:2ec:4cf8:9ee:ea5b:bf07)
# [20:25] * Joins: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@199-83-220-222.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net)
# [20:27] * Quits: nunnun (~hiro@2001:200:164:48:20c:29ff:fe02:11d2) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
# [20:28] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209)
# [20:30] * Joins: jeremyj (~jeremyj@17.202.49.56)
# [20:30] * Quits: jensnockert (~jensnocke@s83-179-51-171.cust.tele2.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [20:30] * Quits: jeremyj (~jeremyj@17.202.49.56) (Client Quit)
# [20:31] * Joins: jeremyj (~jeremyj@17.202.49.56)
# [20:39] <annevk> By the way, I reverted these edits: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Ramanjeet.taneja
# [20:39] <annevk> They pointed to a URL that was not really working
# [20:39] * Joins: nunnun (~hiro@2001:200:164:48:20c:29ff:fe02:11d2)
# [20:42] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@94.234.170.53)
# [20:42] * Quits: zcorpan__ (~zcorpan@c-5eeaaa35-74736162.cust.telenor.se) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [20:42] * Joins: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
# [20:46] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@94.234.170.53) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
# [20:48] * Joins: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-122-133-198-67.kng.mesh.ad.jp)
# [20:50] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@2620:101:80fb:224:c4f5:a1a1:8d47:80a6)
# [20:53] * Quits: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-122-133-198-67.kng.mesh.ad.jp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [20:57] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [20:57] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209)
# [20:57] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
# [21:02] * Quits: satazor (~satazor@239.201.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [21:05] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.114.216.57)
# [21:07] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
# [21:09] * Joins: anchnk (~anchnk@static-176-182-141-112.ncc.abo.bbox.fr)
# [21:09] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
# [21:10] * Quits: anchnk (~anchnk@static-176-182-141-112.ncc.abo.bbox.fr) (Client Quit)
# [21:10] * Joins: bholley (~bholley@98.210.101.88)
# [21:11] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@5.222-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Quit: nn)
# [21:13] * Quits: bholley (~bholley@98.210.101.88) (Client Quit)
# [21:17] * Joins: jensnockert (~jensnocke@s83-179-51-171.cust.tele2.se)
# [21:17] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.114.218.77)
# [21:17] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-41.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
# [21:25] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@172.56.31.45)
# [21:27] * Joins: bholley (~bholley@98.210.101.88)
# [21:28] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:80fc:224:7e7a:91ff:fe25:a5a3) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [21:28] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:80fc:224:7e7a:91ff:fe25:a5a3)
# [21:28] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@host86-163-17-51.range86-163.btcentralplus.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [21:29] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@host86-163-17-51.range86-163.btcentralplus.com)
# [21:31] * Joins: kriskowal (~kriskowal@66-215-92-194.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com)
# [21:32] * Joins: satazor (~satazor@123.87.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt)
# [21:35] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.114.216.57) (Quit: weinig)
# [21:36] <kriskowal> i have not yet begun to lurk
# [21:37] * Quits: tj_vantoll (~Adium@2601:4:5380:2ec:4cf8:9ee:ea5b:bf07) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [21:38] * Joins: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be)
# [21:42] <TabAtkins> kriskowal: By definition, you just *stopped* lurking.
# [21:42] * Quits: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [21:43] <caitp> does it count as lurking if it's only for 5 minutes?
# [21:44] * Joins: tj_vantoll (~Adium@c-98-250-130-237.hsd1.mi.comcast.net)
# [21:49] * Joins: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-122-133-198-67.kng.mesh.ad.jp)
# [21:50] * Quits: jensnockert (~jensnocke@s83-179-51-171.cust.tele2.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [21:53] * Quits: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-122-133-198-67.kng.mesh.ad.jp) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [21:56] * Joins: karbassi (~karbassi@li62-206.members.linode.com)
# [21:58] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@172.56.31.45) (Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi)
# [21:59] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
# [22:00] * Joins: tantek-ipod (~tantek@172.56.31.45)
# [22:04] * Quits: boogyman (~boogyman@pdpc/supporter/professional/boogyman) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [22:04] * Quits: tantek-ipod (~tantek@172.56.31.45) (Client Quit)
# [22:05] * Joins: Lachy_ (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no)
# [22:05] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.114.218.77) (Quit: othermaciej)
# [22:08] * Quits: jeremyj (~jeremyj@17.202.49.56) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
# [22:08] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.114.218.77)
# [22:09] * Joins: boogyman (~boogyman@38.88.11.131)
# [22:09] * Quits: boogyman (~boogyman@38.88.11.131) (Changing host)
# [22:09] * Joins: boogyman (~boogyman@pdpc/supporter/professional/boogyman)
# [22:11] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [22:13] <jorendorff> Hixie_: yeah, second thoughts -- might be counterproductive since it's for your understanding.
# [22:14] * Joins: guybedford (~guybedfor@cpe-107-184-128-210.socal.res.rr.com)
# [22:17] <Hixie_> jorendorff: well you're welcome to a copy you can do whatever you want with :-)
# [22:19] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.114.216.57)
# [22:19] * Joins: roc_ (~chatzilla@121-99-88-229.bng1.tvc.orcon.net.nz)
# [22:19] * Joins: weinig_ (~weinig@17.202.50.84)
# [22:20] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@121-99-142-163.bng1.tvc.orcon.net.nz) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [22:20] * Joins: retornam (~retornam@unaffiliated/retornam)
# [22:20] * roc_ is now known as roc
# [22:21] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209)
# [22:24] * Quits: boogyman (~boogyman@pdpc/supporter/professional/boogyman) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [22:26] * Quits: nunnun (~hiro@2001:200:164:48:20c:29ff:fe02:11d2) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
# [22:31] <Hixie_> jorendorff: any idea what CreateLinkedModuleInstance() is supposed to be?
# [22:32] <Hixie_> mentioned in Reflect.Loader.prototype.newModule
# [22:32] <Hixie_> but doesn't appear to be defined anywhere
# [22:36] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.114.216.57) (Quit: weinig)
# [22:36] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
# [22:36] * Joins: boogyman (~boogyman@38.88.11.131)
# [22:36] * Quits: boogyman (~boogyman@38.88.11.131) (Changing host)
# [22:36] * Joins: boogyman (~boogyman@pdpc/supporter/professional/boogyman)
# [22:39] * Joins: nunnun (~hiro@2001:200:164:48:20c:29ff:fe02:11d2)
# [22:40] <jorendorff> Hixie_: not totally sure, because this is another area where allenwb changed some stuff without telling anybody
# [22:40] <Hixie_> k
# [22:40] <jorendorff> Hixie_: but I think what it's supposed to do is create a Module object that doesn't need to be linked with anything
# [22:41] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@109.201.154.191) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [22:42] <jorendorff> the point of this loader.newModule() method is to support creating a Module object based on just provided keys and values
# [22:42] <Hixie_> it's interesting that there doesn't seem to be a way to create a Module object directly
# [22:42] <Hixie_> unless i'm missing something
# [22:42] <Hixie_> like, new Module()
# [22:43] * Joins: weinig_ (~weinig@17.114.216.57)
# [22:43] * Quits: tj_vantoll (~Adium@c-98-250-130-237.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [22:43] <jorendorff> Hixie_: the original proposal offered exactly that and allenwb editorially changed it to loader.newModule
# [22:43] <Hixie_> also, am i missing something or are Modules really very ES-specific? Like, there doesn't seem to be a way for the loader's [[Modules]] to map a name to something that isn't a JS module
# [22:43] <Hixie_> like, an image, or a <link> element, or whatever
# [22:44] <jorendorff> Hixie_: that's correct, and people have complained about it, and the rationale for that is not good imho
# [22:45] <jorendorff> the rationale is, (1) it does true linking so if one module does export var x = 0; export function f() { x++; } then other modules that import x will observe its value changing
# [22:45] <jorendorff> Reading an imported variable is a read from the actual variable (declared in the other module).
# [22:45] <jorendorff> It's fast and you don't make copies of the variables.
# [22:46] <Hixie_> sure, seems obvious that we should keep that
# [22:46] <Hixie_> how does that affect the non-module case?
# [22:46] <jorendorff> oh. well, that's a rationale for having the system "know about" module objects and use its privileged knowledge of their guts to do something that user scripts couldn't do
# [22:47] <jorendorff> but then why not also allow other random objects, just without the magic behavior, i don't know
# [22:47] * Quits: weinig_ (~weinig@17.114.216.57) (Client Quit)
# [22:47] <jorendorff> there's one more piece of rationale i can quote (without endorsing) which is
# [22:47] <jorendorff> (2) at link time, we throw if you tried to import something and it isn't there
# [22:48] <jorendorff> though, i guess you could *also* do that and still support non-module things in the [[Modules]] cache
# [22:48] <Hixie_> yeah
# [22:48] <jorendorff> but it's certainly nicer with just Modules because the set of names they expose is immutable
# [22:48] <Hixie_> i'm thinking that e.g. style sheets would have a default export that is their <link> element or their StyleSheet object
# [22:48] <jorendorff> i dunno. "nicer" :-P
# [22:48] <Hixie_> and nothing else
# [22:48] * Joins: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-122-133-198-67.kng.mesh.ad.jp)
# [22:49] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Their CSSStyleSheet object, please.
# [22:49] <Hixie_> and images would have just their default export, an <img> element
# [22:49] <Hixie_> and so on
# [22:49] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: probably the <link> element in practice
# [22:49] <jorendorff> Hixie_: Modules also aren't exposed until after they're loaded and linked
# [22:50] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: If you're importing from a url that's a stylesheet, we're developing a stylesheet constructor, so there's no need for a <link>.
# [22:50] <Hixie_> jorendorff: they can be (e.g. in the case of circular dependencies)
# [22:50] <Hixie_> jorendorff: i'm actually expecting that we would make <script type=module> just expose the Module off the HTMLScriptElement object
# [22:50] <jorendorff> Hixie_: even in the case of circular dependencies
# [22:50] <jorendorff> Hixie_: they are linked before evaluation starts
# [22:50] <Hixie_> jorendorff: ah
# [22:50] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: how does the ordering work?
# [22:51] <jorendorff> circular dependencies is the only case where a Module is exposed before all its dependencies are evaluated
# [22:51] * Joins: weinig_ (~weinig@17.114.216.57)
# [22:51] <jorendorff> so in "normal" cases you can even count on that
# [22:51] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: You'll be able to add a Stylesheet to the document's list of stylesheets.
# [22:51] <jorendorff> Hixie_: but my point was, people are going to want to know the load status of stuff, right? or are they? will that be exposed?
# [22:51] <jorendorff> at least it seems like they can do it now
# [22:51] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: will you be able to make two <link> elements that have one order in the DOM have a different order in the style sheets list?
# [22:52] <Hixie_> jorendorff: yes, that's one reason i assumed we'd expose the Modules pre-linking
# [22:52] <TabAtkins> Possibly, but unsure. It might be that document-created objects have a set order, dunno.
# [22:52] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: i beg of you, please make sure there's only one order, even if both can be mutated somehow :-)
# [22:53] <TabAtkins> Well, we won't have it rearrange the DOM.
# [22:53] <TabAtkins> But, like, FontFaceSet always puts the CSS-created FontFaces first in matching order.
# [22:53] * Quits: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-122-133-198-67.kng.mesh.ad.jp) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
# [22:53] <jorendorff> Hixie_: yeah. we didn't expose any of that. possibly a mistake on our part, but we didn't see prior art for that either. for code, it's maybe not common to want that
# [22:53] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: yeah, not rearranging the dom seems wise (Especially given scoped style sheets deep in the DOM, etc)
# [22:54] * Quits: weinig_ (~weinig@17.114.216.57) (Client Quit)
# [22:58] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
# [22:59] * Joins: jensnockert (~jensnocke@s83-179-51-171.cust.tele2.se)
# [22:59] * Joins: jeremyj (~jeremyj@17.202.49.56)
# [23:02] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
# [23:03] <Hixie_> hmmmmm
# [23:03] <Hixie_> i guess "locate" doesn't have to return a URL, huh
# [23:03] <Hixie_> it could just return the Element
# [23:03] * Quits: jensnockert (~jensnocke@s83-179-51-171.cust.tele2.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [23:04] <Hixie_> nothing checks that [[Address]] is a string
# [23:09] * Joins: KevinMarks2 (~yaaic@199-83-220-222.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net)
# [23:10] <Hixie_> jorendorff: is the output of "normalize" exposed anywhere?
# [23:10] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
# [23:10] <Hixie_> e.g. can you walk the [[Modules]] list?
# [23:10] <jorendorff> Hixie_: yeah, Reflect.Loader.prototype has methods {keys,values,entries} for walking and {get,has,set,delete}. Very Map-like.
# [23:10] <Hixie_> and i guess the Name is exposed in the LoadObjects
# [23:11] <Hixie_> damnit
# [23:11] <jorendorff> Loads aren't exposed ... are they?
# [23:11] <Hixie_> in the hooks
# [23:11] <jorendorff> oh
# [23:11] <jorendorff> yeah
# [23:11] <Hixie_> i can't work out how to make normalize work
# [23:12] <jorendorff> well ... i'm not sure how to make it work either. url syntax is pretty complete, it's not sensible to add to it
# [23:12] <jorendorff> but it's also really annoying to use urls as module names
# [23:12] <Hixie_> we need to support: import "packagefoo.subbar.baz"; import "http://example.com/foo.js"; import "anIDinTheDocument";
# [23:13] * Quits: bholley (~bholley@98.210.101.88) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
# [23:13] <Hixie_> (where the first one is some magical way of specifying a module that I don't yet understand)
# [23:13] <Hixie_> (the thing you were alluding to yesterday)
# [23:13] <jorendorff> the last one would be: import "#anIDinTheDocument" surely?
# [23:14] <Hixie_> why?
# [23:14] <jorendorff> well, it seems like it unifies the last two things
# [23:14] <Hixie_> then people would think import "foo.html#anID" would work
# [23:15] <jorendorff> i guess they would
# [23:15] <Hixie_> we went down that route with usemap=""
# [23:15] <Hixie_> it led to all kinds of hassles
# [23:15] <jorendorff> ok
# [23:15] <Hixie_> also, side question
# [23:15] <Hixie_> wtf is a ModuleImport??
# [23:15] <jorendorff> but how do you distinguish an id from a relative url?
# [23:15] * Quits: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
# [23:16] <Hixie_> i've no idea how you distinguish anything here. that's my problem.
# [23:16] <jorendorff> k
# [23:16] <Hixie_> (how do you distinguish my.package.name from a url?)
# [23:16] * Quits: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
# [23:16] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [23:17] <Hixie_> what does module foo from "foo.js"; mean?
# [23:17] <jorendorff> Hixie_: a ModuleImport creates a global binding like any other import, but its value is the Module object
# [23:17] <jorendorff> rather than some exported value
# [23:17] <Hixie_> so "foo" is now a variable whose value is the Module object?
# [23:17] <Hixie_> instead of the default export?
# [23:17] <jorendorff> yes.
# [23:17] <jorendorff> it also creates a dependency edge like any other import.
# [23:18] <Hixie_> ok, so, first of all, that's wildly confusing syntax for that. but ok.
# [23:18] <jorendorff> the default export (if any) is then foo.default
# [23:18] <Hixie_> what's the use case?
# [23:18] <jorendorff> i dunno, why does python have both `import os` and `from os import system`?
# [23:18] <jorendorff> haskell also has qualified and unqualified imports
# [23:18] <Hixie_> huh
# [23:19] <Hixie_> weird
# [23:19] <Hixie_> seems very weird to have this be called "module"
# [23:19] <Hixie_> doesn't sound like an import at all
# [23:19] <jorendorff> i agree
# [23:19] <Hixie_> sounds more like "hey, this is a module!"
# [23:19] <Hixie_> which i wish we had, but that's another story
# [23:19] <jorendorff> mmhmm
# [23:20] <Hixie_> <script type=module id=a> ... </script> <script type=module> import a; </script>
# [23:20] <jorendorff> Hixie_: there's a certain logic to this but having both this and default exports makes me cringe
# [23:20] <Hixie_> er, import "a"
# [23:20] <jorendorff> (where this = ModuleImport syntax)
# [23:21] <Hixie_> i guess in that example, "locate" should return the actual HTMLScriptElement.
# [23:21] <Hixie_> it's not a string, but nothing seems to check that in practice so we're ok
# [23:21] <jorendorff> right, the not checking in practice is deliberate
# [23:21] <Hixie_> but what should "normalize" return? it can't return a URL...
# [23:22] <jorendorff> that's the same problem as before
# [23:22] <Hixie_> yeah
# [23:23] <SamB> calling it module is indeed insane
# [23:23] * Joins: jensnockert (~jensnocke@s83-179-51-171.cust.tele2.se)
# [23:23] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209)
# [23:23] <Hixie_> do the people who disagree with us ever hang out on irc?
# [23:23] <SamB> painting yourselves into a corner, you are
# [23:23] <Hixie_> it'd be good to get their perspective :-)
# [23:24] * Joins: zenparsing (~zenparsin@97-81-81-172.dhcp.athn.ga.charter.com)
# [23:24] <jorendorff> samth hangs out in moznet #jslang. dherman is occasionally on irc
# [23:24] <jorendorff> samth is in either Central or Eastern time
# [23:25] <jorendorff> i dislike the syntax, I feel like any one human being could design better syntax from scratch
# [23:26] <jorendorff> strong words
# [23:26] <jorendorff> working incrementally i don't know how to improve it, except by deleting features.
# [23:26] <Hixie_> other than using "module" it's mostly fine imho
# [23:26] <Hixie_> oh JS as a whole?
# [23:26] <Hixie_> JS as a whole is a different matter :-)
# [23:26] <jorendorff> the import syntax in particular.
# [23:26] <Hixie_> too late for that though
# [23:26] <jorendorff> quite.
# [23:26] <jorendorff> that's our motto "too late for that though"
# [23:26] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-44-207.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Reconnecting…)
# [23:27] <SamB> you really need to burn it with FIRE
# [23:28] <Hixie_> you could do import "foo"; import "foo" as foo; import module "foo" as foo; import "foo" { explicit as foo, exports as bar };
# [23:28] <Hixie_> (that's all the features, right?)
# [23:28] <SamB> which features?
# [23:28] <Hixie_> of es6 imports
# [23:28] <jorendorff> SamB: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCbfMkh940Q
# [23:29] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-44-207.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
# [23:29] <SamB> thought you might have meant of Python or Haskell imports
# [23:30] <Hixie_> personally i think "import foo;" is enough, no need to change the name, no need to control what is imported, no need to expose the Module
# [23:30] <SamB> what's the difference between 'import "foo";' and 'import module "foo";'
# [23:30] <Hixie_> but i'm old fashioned ;-)
# [23:30] <Hixie_> SamB: the same as today's import "foo"; vs module foo from "foo";
# [23:30] <SamB> that syntax is worse than Python's
# [23:31] <Hixie_> mine or the current one?
# [23:31] <SamB> and Python's was grown
# [23:31] <SamB> the "module" one
# [23:31] <Hixie_> well python doesn't have that feature
# [23:31] <Hixie_> as far as i know
# [23:31] * Quits: KevinMarks2 (~yaaic@199-83-220-222.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [23:31] <SamB> Python doesn't have a distinction
# [23:31] <jorendorff> python does have that feature; `import os` binds the os module object to os
# [23:31] <jorendorff> what python doesn't have is "default exports"
# [23:31] <Hixie_> ah ok
# [23:31] <Hixie_> my bad
# [23:32] <SamB> jorendorff: isn't that what __all__ is?
# [23:32] * Quits: Lachy_ (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
# [23:32] <jorendorff> __all__ only affects `from os import *`
# [23:32] <SamB> ah
# [23:32] <jorendorff> keep asking questions i know the answers to, makes me feel helpful
# [23:32] * Quits: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@199-83-220-222.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
# [23:32] <SamB> hmm
# [23:33] <SamB> then you have Haskell, where there are no exports but the default exports
# [23:33] <SamB> (but some things may not be exported *at all*)
# [23:34] <SamB> but one important commonality between the two languages: all the forms contain the "import" keyword!
# [23:35] * Joins: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@94.117.104.174)
# [23:35] * Quits: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@94.117.104.174) (Changing host)
# [23:35] * Joins: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley)
# [23:35] <SamB> and, as you know, Haskell uses "module" to introduce the export list
# [23:36] <jorendorff> Haskell's module system seems about on par with the ES6 module system in terms of syntactic beauty
# [23:36] <jorendorff> Haskell doesn't have Module objects
# [23:37] <jorendorff> though it does have `import qualified` in case you just enjoy using dot syntax
# [23:37] <SamB> jorendorff: it's for avoiding clashes
# [23:38] <jorendorff> yeah, there are a ton of modules that export super common Prelude names
# [23:38] * Quits: kriskowal (~kriskowal@66-215-92-194.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
# [23:39] * Joins: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be)
# [23:39] <Hixie_> jorendorff: do you know what the wildcard is supposed to do? https://github.com/ModuleLoader/es6-module-loader/blob/master/lib/system.js#L168
# [23:39] * ojanm is now known as ojan
# [23:39] <SamB> so you'll typically "import qualified Data.Map as M" or something, iirc the syntax correctly
# [23:40] <jorendorff> Hixie_: yeah, what this code is trying to do is let you say
# [23:40] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [23:40] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209)
# [23:40] <jorendorff> loader.paths = { 'jquery': 'url/to/jquery', 'numerics/*': 'url/to/huge/numerical/package/*'}
# [23:41] <SamB> jorendorff: Haskell at least knows that a construct beginning with "module" should declare a module
# [23:41] <jorendorff> Hixie_: ^ and then
# [23:41] * Joins: newtron_work (~newtron@199.71.174.204)
# [23:41] <Hixie_> oh, i see
# [23:41] <Hixie_> so numerics/foo becomes url/to/huge/numerical/package/foo
# [23:41] <jorendorff> yup
# [23:41] <Hixie_> somehow i missed that this was applying to the paths and not to the input to the locate hook
# [23:42] <Hixie_> why is that in locate and not normalize?
# [23:42] * Quits: satazor (~satazor@123.87.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [23:43] <Hixie_> maybe import foo from "#foo"; is the way to go after all
# [23:43] <Hixie_> i don't see any other solution
# [23:43] <jorendorff> the question being answered is "where can i download this module?" and .paths contains those answers
# [23:43] * Quits: roven (~roven@78-20-24-80.access.telenet.be) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [23:44] * Quits: Areks_home (~Areks@128-72-254-245.broadband.corbina.ru) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [23:44] <Hixie_> sure but this means that if someone does import "jquery" and someone else does import "url/to/jquery" they'll end up with two modules
# [23:44] * Quits: newtron_ (~newtron@199.71.174.203) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [23:44] <Hixie_> why would you want that?
# [23:44] <SamB> Hixie_: they'd probably use different mirrors anyway
# [23:44] <SamB> or different versions
# [23:44] <SamB> or something
# [23:44] <Hixie_> these are the same final url
# [23:45] * Quits: newtron_work (~newtron@199.71.174.204) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [23:45] <jorendorff> that's right, everyone should do |import "jquery"| because it's a bad idea to hardcode URLs in code that's going to be shared
# [23:46] <SamB> so ... remind me why jquery doesn't start with 'module "jquery"'
# [23:47] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
# [23:47] <Hixie_> SamB: because you need the name long before you've obtained the resource
# [23:47] <SamB> well, sure
# [23:47] <Hixie_> SamB: indeed you need the name before you know what resource to obtain
# [23:47] <jorendorff> ES6 modules don't know their names, it's a little weird
# [23:47] <SamB> that doesn't stop ELF modules from having sonames, does it?
# [23:48] <Hixie_> the web is an extremely late-binding environment with extreme latency involved in finding resources
# [23:48] <Hixie_> in this respect it's unlike most other systems
# [23:48] * Quits: jensnockert (~jensnocke@s83-179-51-171.cust.tele2.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [23:48] <jorendorff> are .sonames enforced? if you try to link against something and the system can find that file, but the .soname doesn't match, is it an error?
# [23:48] <SamB> it wouldn't be useful for anything except "WTF, you imported this module by the wrong name!"
# [23:49] * Joins: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-122-133-198-67.kng.mesh.ad.jp)
# [23:49] <jorendorff> well it'd be useful for making it clear to people looking at a JS module that they're looking at a module
# [23:49] <jorendorff> i don't think the name buys you much of anything
# [23:49] <SamB> jorendorff: well, the *linker* would get confused at least
# [23:50] <Hixie_> having module foo { } would let us entirely get rid of type=module which alone would be a huge win imho
# [23:50] <SamB> jorendorff: it could help everyone agree on WHAT name to import it by
# [23:50] <Hixie_> but the es team seems unsold by this idea
# [23:51] <jorendorff> Hixie_: actually i think that is going to happen in es7
# [23:51] * Joins: satazor (~satazor@123.87.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt)
# [23:51] <SamB> hmm, perhaps comparing to elisp libraries would be more apt? I don't know.
# [23:51] <Hixie_> uh
# [23:51] <Hixie_> why are we taking a detour through pain land in the meantime then
# [23:51] <zenparsing> i pushed really hard for lexical modules in es6
# [23:52] * Joins: caridy (~Adium@c-98-254-20-145.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
# [23:53] * Quits: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-122-133-198-67.kng.mesh.ad.jp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [23:53] <zenparsing> to no avail obviously
# [23:54] <SamB> why is ECMA even involved
# [23:59] * Quits: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@89.17.128.127) (Quit: barnabywalters)
# [23:59] * Quits: boogyman (~boogyman@pdpc/supporter/professional/boogyman) (Quit: Leaving.)
# Session Close: Wed Aug 13 00:00:00 2014

The end :)