/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-08-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Aug 20 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:01] <Domenic> zcorpan: I made my png with `npm install svg2png-cli -g`; `svg2png my-svg.png --width 100` or something like that
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  10. # [00:03] <SamB> Domenic: what does that use for rendering?
  11. # [00:03] <Domenic> SamB: PhantomJS
  12. # [00:03] <Domenic> So, QtWebKit
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  15. # [00:04] <dsheets> is PCDATA in <script> in text/html possible?
  16. # [00:04] <SamB> dsheets: you know, it might be best to avoid needing to know the answer to that question
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  18. # [00:05] <dsheets> too late
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  20. # [00:05] <dsheets> snark not helpful anyway
  21. # [00:05] <SamB> I was being serious!
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  23. # [00:05] <SamB> dsheets: what's your context?
  24. # [00:05] <dsheets> SamB, how do you suggest I avoid needing to know the answer? coerce some XML to invalid XML?
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  26. # [00:06] <SamB> dsheets: well, there isn't XML in text/html anyway
  27. # [00:06] <SamB> of course, if you're writing a serializer, maybe you really *can't* avoid knowing
  28. # [00:08] <dsheets> i think the answer is "no"
  29. # [00:08] <dsheets> based on http://www.w3.org/TR/html-polyglot/#raw-text-elements
  30. # [00:08] <SamB> DO NOT USE
  31. # [00:08] <SamB> there is no html-polyglot
  32. # [00:09] <dsheets> right, i forgot where i was
  33. # [00:09] <dsheets> mmmm this kool-aid tastes yummy
  34. # [00:10] <SamB> hey, I'm not exactly a party-liner
  35. # [00:10] <dsheets> the fact that there is a party at all disturbs me
  36. # [00:11] <dsheets> i didn't get to pick these tools but html (still) seems less flexible for inline content than alternatives
  37. # [00:11] <dsheets> no magic incantation to turn off CDATA parsing? ok...
  38. # [00:12] <SamB> what, exactly, is the point of trying to get well-formed XML to parse as HTML that kinda-sorta represents the same thing?
  39. # [00:13] <dsheets> it's what the software that i'm hacking does
  40. # [00:13] <SamB> you don't get any of the advantages that XML is supposed to give you that way
  41. # [00:14] <dsheets> it gets not-injecting stuff into my pages by default
  42. # [00:14] <SamB> hmm?
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  46. # [00:14] <dsheets> look, it's not my choice and i have to fix this problem
  47. # [00:14] <dsheets> thanks for your help
  48. # [00:15] <SamB> you never even said what the problem was :-(
  49. # [00:15] <dsheets> is PCDATA in <script> in text/html possible?
  50. # [00:15] <dsheets> and the answer appears to be "no"
  51. # [00:15] <SamB> that's not a problem
  52. # [00:16] <dsheets> for me, it is
  53. # [00:16] <dsheets> this stack is conservative
  54. # [00:16] <dsheets> anyway, ta!
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  56. # [00:16] <SamB> a problem is more like "i'm trying to X, but whenever I Y, the browser does Z ..."
  57. # [00:17] <SamB> dsheets: anyway, <script> parsing is batshit
  58. # [00:18] <dsheets> hmm? what? because no one has made it sane? in fact, in 2014, there isn't even a way to turn ON PCDATA?
  59. # [00:18] <SamB> it's best to forget the claims that HTML is an application of SGML when going anywhere *near* <script>
  60. # [00:19] <Domenic> not because noone has made it sane... because it was implemented in an insane way and changing it would break the web
  61. # [00:20] <SamB> (there's nothing special about <script> in XHTML though)
  62. # [00:20] <dsheets> Domenic, adding an attribute breaks the web? seems... unlikely
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  64. # [00:21] <SamB> dsheets: oh, you can presumably add whatever data- attributes you like, but you can't declare them or anything
  65. # [00:24] <SamB> dsheets: hmm, looking at the spec, I see that #PCDATA is a content-model thing; the closest attribute type I see is CDATA ...
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  68. # [00:24] <SamB> (that's the XML spec, of course)
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  224. # [07:44] <zcorpan> dsheets could maybe use <svg><svript> although that has a different set of quirks
  225. # [07:44] <zcorpan> i didn't follow what his use case was
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  227. # [07:45] <SamB> zcorpan: he seemed intent on doing the "polyglot" thing without any explanation
  228. # [07:46] <zcorpan> he doesn't need different parsing of script to do polyglot...
  229. # [07:47] <SamB> anyway he wasn't terribly coherent :-(
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  231. # [07:49] <zcorpan> if his problem was that <script><![CDATA[ doesn't work then the fix is js comments
  232. # [07:50] <zcorpan> or stop using polyglot of course
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  311. # [09:37] <annevk> zcorpan: I think I used http://www.fileformat.info/convert/image/svg2raster.htm or some such
  312. # [09:37] <annevk> zcorpan: might not give the best results
  313. # [09:37] <annevk> SamB was working on something better
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  337. # [10:17] <annevk> JakeA: note that get() takes a dictionary argument for filtering, defaulting to all
  338. # [10:18] <JakeA> annevk: I guess you can only have one notification per tag?
  339. # [10:19] <annevk> JakeA: there can be multiple
  340. # [10:20] <JakeA> annevk: Still feels like it should be getAll then, but it's not a big deal. Eg we have cache.match and cache.matchAll, both methods take a filtering arg
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  342. # [10:21] <annevk> fair, querySelector/querySelectorAll
  343. # [10:21] <annevk> but I don't think there's really a case here where you'd want the first so from that perspective...
  344. # [10:23] <JakeA> annevk: also map.get
  345. # [10:23] <JakeA> But yeah, if Firefox already has an impl, that seems like a stronger reason to leave it as .get
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  359. # [10:38] <annevk> I wonder why Mark Watson of Netflix is pushing back on requiring HTTPS for new APIs
  360. # [10:38] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webappsec/2014Aug/0062.html
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  362. # [10:39] <annevk> I guess it's mostly because of https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26332
  363. # [10:39] <annevk> But Netflix goes over TLS so what is the big deal?
  364. # [10:39] <annevk> Perhaps the TV environment where they care less about security?
  365. # [10:39] <annevk> hsivonen: ^^
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  424. # [13:13] <annevk> foolip: Firefox throws if you try to modify an attribute's child list
  425. # [13:14] <annevk> foolip: and in fact it pretends there are no children
  426. # [13:15] <annevk> foolip: e.g. attr.firstChild returns null, childList is an empty NodeList
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  428. # [13:23] <foolip> annevk: that sounds so sweet
  429. # [13:24] <foolip> I bet there's a FIXME that fortunately never got fixed :)
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  431. # [13:33] <zcorpan> does anyone use http://resources.whatwg.org/status-warning.js ?
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  434. # [13:36] <annevk> foolip: I put a summary in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26609
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  436. # [13:38] <annevk> Domenic: could we deploy HSTS on resources.whatwg.org?
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  439. # [13:43] <annevk> jgraham: "In addition, wildcards themselves can have subjectAltName extensions, including other wildcards. For example: The wildcard certificate *.wikipedia.org has *.m.wikimedia.org as an Subject Alternative Name." seems to be what we want?
  440. # [13:43] <annevk> jgraham: that's 360 USD a year?
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  442. # [13:46] <jgraham> annevk: Yeah, I think a SAN cert would work
  443. # [13:46] <jgraham> But IANASSLE
  444. # [13:46] <annevk> jgraham: well wildcard + SAN right?
  445. # [13:47] <jgraham> Yes
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  451. # [14:06] <Ms2ger> foolip, actually, not a FIXME... We used to support that, kinda, but I killed it
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  455. # [14:25] <gsnedders> what's the correct behaviour of vh on paged media?
  456. # [14:30] <JakeA> Bothers me that the quota API doesn't really specify the units of the quota
  457. # [14:31] <JakeA> I'm guessing bytes. The 'usage' property is in bytes.
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  461. # [14:42] <foolip> Ms2ger: in that case you're the hero of the day!
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  464. # [14:44] <Ms2ger> \o/
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  470. # [15:00] <foolip> Ms2ger: was that change simply making Attr not a container Node like Element, Document and DocumentFragment?
  471. # [15:02] <Ms2ger> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=737122
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  473. # [15:05] <annevk> jgraham: per https://www.startssl.com/ it seems we can do this for USD 60
  474. # [15:05] <annevk> if Hixie_ had an account with them already it might not be too bad
  475. # [15:06] <annevk> EV is getting cheaper too, I thought someone recently told me it was 10k or so
  476. # [15:07] <foolip> Ms2ger: thanks
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  503. # [15:42] <jgraham> annevk: EV doesn't work with wildcard certs anyway
  504. # [15:42] <annevk> jgraham: yeah, wasn't really considering EV for us, it's mostly a scam
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  506. # [15:55] <zcorpan> https://github.com/whatwg/html-mirror/commit/7c23a0789467f3c3d9659b75db963e31e21c9d76 is gold
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  515. # [16:03] <foolip> zcorpan: I like that one too :)
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  540. # [16:57] <annevk> JakeA: perhaps we should float the Fetch part on the WHATWG list?
  541. # [16:58] <annevk> JakeA: I can do that tomorrow
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  544. # [16:59] <JakeA> annevk: I'm happy to do it, will post a summary tomorrow morning
  545. # [16:59] <annevk> sgtm
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  551. # [17:06] <annevk> Domenic: if only we had someone to maintain IDL :p
  552. # [17:06] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  553. # [17:06] <Domenic> annevk: hehehe...
  554. # [17:07] <heycam> Domenic, send more PRs! :)
  555. # [17:08] <Domenic> yeah, if people like this observable idea I'd be happy to PR it in
  556. # [17:10] <Ms2ger> heycam, accept the PRs you get first!
  557. # [17:11] * heycam looks at Ms2ger's PR
  558. # [17:11] <heycam> sorry i haven't looked at your CSSRule rejigging patch yet either
  559. # [17:11] <Ms2ger> heycam, and ArtB's that's been sitting for 5 months?
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  562. # [17:13] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: can you make a whatwg html-differences bugzilla component please?
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  564. # [17:14] <MikeSmith> yup
  565. # [17:14] <MikeSmith> gimme a minute
  566. # [17:15] <annevk> heycam: in Europe already?
  567. # [17:15] <heycam> annevk, yep, just arrived
  568. # [17:15] <heycam> annevk, did you move to Switzerland yet?
  569. # [17:15] <annevk> yeah I have
  570. # [17:15] <heycam> ah cool
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  572. # [17:16] <annevk> it is a bit, very rainy summer
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  574. # [17:21] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=HTML%20Differences&list_id=42473&product=WHATWG&;resolution=---
  575. # [17:21] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: thanks!!
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  581. # [17:26] <annevk> I wonder if https://twitter.com/hfiguiere/status/498885668937170945 is still true. Really seems like someone ought to reinvent the CA business
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  585. # [17:29] <JakeA> It's in dire need of "disrupting" as them business folks would say
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  589. # [17:32] <Ms2ger> "Orca screen reader now supports longdesc (in Gecko)"
  590. # [17:32] <Ms2ger> Progress!
  591. # [17:33] <foolip> why is everyone talking about https for whatwg.org these days?
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  594. # [17:37] <jgraham> foolip: https jusst became fashionable
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  613. # [17:56] <annevk> foolip: well, seems like a good place to start with TLS
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  615. # [17:57] <annevk> Also, if that's what is required to have a normal site these days, it would be nice to set a good example
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  622. # [18:04] <zcorpan> please review http://html-differences.whatwg.org/
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  624. # [18:05] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, weird underline for " and stopSorting(). "
  625. # [18:05] <Ms2ger> Also " and border attribute"
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  629. # [18:08] <zcorpan> fixed thx
  630. # [18:08] <estellevw> there are a few areas matching p > span:not([title=""]):not([class~="XXX"]):not([class~="impl"]):not([class~="note"]), li > span:not([title=""]):not([class~="XXX"]):not([class~="impl"]):not([class~="note"]) that get a green underline.
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  633. # [18:08] <zcorpan> estellevw: reload?
  634. # [18:08] <estellevw> fixed
  635. # [18:09] <estellevw> took me longer to write that line than for you to fix it ;)
  636. # [18:09] <zcorpan> :-)
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  664. # [18:32] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, so, about -goog-... What's the advantage over doing the same thing without -goog-?
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  666. # [18:39] <Hixie_> marcosc: yt?
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  668. # [18:47] <annevk> Ah, answer is at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webappsec/2014Aug/0067.html
  669. # [18:47] <annevk> Netflix streams encrypted content over HTTP
  670. # [18:47] <Hixie_> yay unencrypted signalling
  671. # [18:47] <annevk> And Netflix does not want to upgrade their infrastructure so instead they argue that new features should be enabled over HTTP
  672. # [18:48] <annevk> I guess Mixed Content allows that kind of thing :-(
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  675. # [18:54] <zcorpan> is https the new utf-8?
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  678. # [18:58] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Ah, easy to answer.
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  680. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: If you ship to 1% *without* prefixing, then the page feature-tests for the unprefixed feature. When we eventually turn on the feature for real, possibly with changes, it triggers that codepath, and possibly causes errors.
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  682. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: So instead, you use a prefix, so the eventual final thing won't be hit by the "experimental code" branch. And by only shipping it to 1% or so of people, you ensure that it really *is* a branch, not the program just relying on the prefix all the time.
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  684. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> 1% is nice, because it still gives plenty of hits and data-collection opportunity, but takes far too long to restart-cycle yourself into having it working.
  685. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> We discussed this as an option back when we were planning the Blink fork, but decided to just follow Firefox's lead instead. We're back to experimenting with it now.
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  687. # [19:07] <Hixie_> prefixing doesn't work because people just assume the non-prefixed version will be the same and preemptively give both
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  692. # [19:09] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: It's possible that might still happen. We'll see.
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  695. # [19:10] <TabAtkins> We're optimistic that the fact that you have to provide fallbacks and explicitly feature-test will mean that people don't just auto-provide unprefixed paths as well.
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  698. # [19:12] <Ms2ger> I'm doubtful
  699. # [19:14] <TabAtkins> Welp, we'll see. Not a huge deal for this thing if people still screw it up.
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  704. # [19:19] <annevk> zcorpan: yeah something like that
  705. # [19:20] <annevk> zcorpan: the new http://www.webstandards.org/
  706. # [19:21] <annevk> zcorpan: the new XHTML 1.1
  707. # [19:21] <annevk> oh wait
  708. # [19:21] <annevk> that didn't go so well
  709. # [19:23] <Ms2ger> XHTML2?
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  714. # [19:26] <SamB> annevk: what, SSL certs aren't already a scam ;-P?
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  717. # [19:27] <SamB> (those signed by the CArtel, I mean)
  718. # [19:27] <annevk> SamB: via startssl you can get one for free
  719. # [19:27] <SamB> so it's not a very-well-run scam
  720. # [19:27] <annevk> but yes, replacing the CA system would be great if that was feasible
  721. # [19:28] <annevk> bit of a shame that it took us this long to realize everyone needs TLS
  722. # [19:28] <SamB> heck, even restricting the national CAs to their own TLDs would be an improvement
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  734. # [19:46] <annevk> If we could make it part of DNS somehow and just let the registrars deal with it
  735. # [19:46] <Hixie_> do we have a spec for real-world content-disposition?
  736. # [19:46] <annevk> Everyone that has a domain has figured out how to deal with registrars
  737. # [19:47] <annevk> Hixie_: jreschke has tests for that at least
  738. # [19:47] <annevk> Hixie_: http://greenbytes.de/tech/tc2231/
  739. # [19:47] <Hixie_> yeah but i'm sure his tests just show that browsers don't follow the spec
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  743. # [19:55] <SamB> annevk: well, obviously that's only sane if you have dnssec working
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  747. # [20:00] <SamB> and, say, the glibc people are understandably not too enthusiastic about pulling in the requisite crypto code to check dnssec results in-process
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  754. # [20:09] <SamB> annevk: though they seem open to adding support for declaring external resolvers (e.g. dnsmasq) as trusted to check dnssec results, and adding flags to treat failure to obtain a dnssec-verified result as an error ...
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  756. # [20:10] <SamB> annevk: so were you thinking that thing where you can put your SSL key fingerprint or whatever into a DNS record, or something else?
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  765. # [20:34] <Hixie_> annevk: so... for load-settings=""... do we want to do a JSON blob?
  766. # [20:34] <Hixie_> annevk: or something more user-friendly?
  767. # [20:34] <Hixie_> annevk: and do we want to reflect that as a DOMString? or something more usable?
  768. # [20:34] <Hixie_> annevk: it's just a flat name-value pair dictionary, no? nothing complex?
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  770. # [20:35] <Hixie_> annevk: maybe it should just be a semi-colon separated set of colon-separated name/value pairs?
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  779. # [20:50] <annevk> Hixie_: if you want both headers and settings, it'll be more complex than name-value
  780. # [20:51] <Hixie_> ah, right
  781. # [20:51] <annevk> Hixie_: well, it's name-value, but not string-string
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  783. # [20:53] <annevk> SamB: I haven't really considered it in detail, it's mostly a thought
  784. # [20:54] <annevk> SamB: would require quite a bit more effort to turn this into something tangible
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  793. # [21:14] <annevk> Array.prototype.slice has a fast path for NodeList https://twitter.com/bz_moz/status/500121412523532288
  794. # [21:14] <annevk> Oh DOM, you so bad
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  856. # [22:50] <miketaylr> is there a specified behavior for https://miketaylr.com/bzla/docwrite.html?
  857. # [22:50] <miketaylr> firefox/presto and blink/webkit disagree
  858. # [22:52] <caitp> typeof undefined is usually not "function"
  859. # [22:53] <Ms2ger> Probably, yes
  860. # [22:53] <Ms2ger> I'll bet that hsivonen even knows which one is right
  861. # [22:54] <Ms2ger> I suspect it's Fx/Presto
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  863. # [22:54] <Ms2ger> Because the inner window changes
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  865. # [22:54] <caitp> I get the same results in FF nightly and chrome stable
  866. # [22:54] <caitp> so... go figure?
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  870. # [22:57] <miketaylr> caitp: really
  871. # [22:58] <miketaylr> i get different results in chrome stable and canary... and chrome mobile
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  874. # [22:58] <miketaylr> naturally there are sites depending on this... https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1015725#c2
  875. # [22:59] <caitp> seems to be same results in canary (39.0.2129.0 (Official Build 290688) canary) too
  876. # [22:59] <miketaylr> let me take out document.googWrite
  877. # [22:59] <miketaylr> you might be hitting that
  878. # [22:59] <miketaylr> :P
  879. # [23:00] <miketaylr> caitp: so once you click the button, Chrome and Firefox both say ____?
  880. # [23:00] <miketaylr> for me, chrome says true, fx false
  881. # [23:00] <caitp> ah I see
  882. # [23:01] <caitp> yes, different results there
  883. # [23:01] <miketaylr> ok, phew
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  897. # [23:17] <caitp> well, the applicable spec that matters here is probably http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#dom-document-open
  898. # [23:21] <caitp> so you get a new "window" global, effectively an entirely new script isolate really
  899. # [23:21] <caitp> so I guess we're doing the wrong thing in blink/v8
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  906. # [23:40] <smaug____> miketaylr: Gecko does the right thing
  907. # [23:42] <miketaylr> thx caitp smaug____
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  909. # [23:43] <caitp> wonder if there's a crbug for that
  910. # [23:44] <miketaylr> dunno, will probably file one if not
  911. # [23:44] <miketaylr> but every site that uses mobify.js relies on their current behavior
  912. # [23:44] <caitp> i dunno if you can really call it a change that would "break the web" if other popular browsers are doing the right thing
  913. # [23:47] <miketaylr> heh, doing the right thing (and have broken mobile sites as a result)
  914. # [23:47] <caitp> https://crbug.com/149785 looks like there's a bug
  915. # [23:47] <miketaylr> yep, looks like it
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The end :)