/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-09-04 / end

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  47. # [01:43] <othermaciej> annevk: is there a canonical test suite for the URL standard, specifically for the parsing algorithm?
  48. # [01:44] <othermaciej> one of my planned hobby projects is to implement its parsing rules, but I might need to start by making a test suite
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  118. # Session Close: Thu Sep 04 04:21:09 2014
  119. #
  120. # Session Start: Thu Sep 04 04:21:09 2014
  121. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  123. # [04:29] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
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  125. # [04:29] * Topic is 'http://www.whatwg.org/ — logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ — stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html — Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  126. # [04:29] * Set by annevk!~annevk@207.218.72.65 on Tue Mar 25 11:47:32
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  128. # [04:32] <erlehmann> there is no redirect? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/converting-html-to-other-formats.html#atom
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  130. # [04:33] <erlehmann> i see http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-June/068847.html
  131. # [04:39] <erlehmann> http://edward.oconnor.cx/2013/03/herodotus-on-standards-work
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  143. # [04:59] <Hixie_> erlehmann: i think that section is long gone
  144. # [04:59] <erlehmann> Hixie_ yeah, i see. can't you add a note about that?
  145. # [05:00] <erlehmann> it really took me some time to find out that it has not moved around or something
  146. # [05:00] <erlehmann> because of software changes
  147. # [05:00] <erlehmann> and was just scrapped
  148. # [05:00] <Hixie_> sure. file a bug. not sure where i'd put it exactly, or what it should say, but i can try
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  151. # [05:01] <erlehmann> Hixie_ where can i file bug?
  152. # [05:02] <erlehmann> i'll try to figure it out
  153. # [05:02] <Hixie_> whatwg.org/newbug
  154. # [05:02] <erlehmann> thx!
  155. # [05:03] <erlehmann> www.w3.org
  156. # [05:03] <erlehmann> hahaha
  157. # [05:03] <erlehmann> in the spirit of slashdot.org
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  202. # [07:20] <zcorpan> hsivonen: MikeSmith: https://github.com/svenkreiss/html5validator
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  209. # [07:35] <karlcow> wondering who is in charge at Apple for Mixed Content Blocking issues https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=881485
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  227. # [08:44] <Ms2ger> "This is not enough quorum to discuss anything meaningful so we ended the call after 15 minutes."
  228. # [08:44] <Ms2ger> One wonders how it takes 15 minutes to figure that out
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  251. # [09:35] <ato> Ms2ger: Maybe only non-meaningful things were discussed.
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  264. # [09:59] <jgraham> othermaciej: http://w3c-test.org/url/
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  272. # [10:25] <annevk> ah, was just about to answer that :-)
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  298. # [11:31] <annevk> hsivonen: are you going to a do a blogpost on DNSSEC one day?
  299. # [11:34] <foolip> annevk: do you know which spec defines how Web browsers detect the encoding of text/plain input, i.e. the heuristic that looks for a UTF-8 BOM, valid UTF-8 sequences and that kind of thing?
  300. # [11:35] <jgraham> HTML, I imagine
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  302. # [11:36] <annevk> foolip: currently we don't have sniffing for text/plain
  303. # [11:36] <foolip> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#encoding-sniffing-algorithm seems relevant
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  305. # [11:36] <annevk> foolip: if user agents employ sniffing for text/plain, that should probably be defined in HTML
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  307. # [11:36] <foolip> I said text/plain because I'm interested in a good heuristic that isn't HTML-specific
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  309. # [11:37] <foolip> for a non-Web, non-work thing
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  312. # [11:37] <annevk> the current rules are only checking BOM for text/plain
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  314. # [11:37] <foolip> jgraham: detecting the encoding of files loaded in Critic, in fact
  315. # [11:37] <jgraham> From a web-browser point of view text/plain is very like HTML
  316. # [11:37] <annevk> no hueristics
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  319. # [11:38] <jgraham> foolip: Ah. Isn't the canonical solution there to use chardet, or something?
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  321. # [11:38] <foolip> jgraham: dunno, molsson asked me and all I know is Web stuff :)
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  323. # [11:39] <jgraham> Heh
  324. # [11:39] <Ms2ger> def detect_charset(content):
  325. # [11:39] <Ms2ger> return "utf-8"
  326. # [11:39] <foolip> Ms2ger: that is a serious option, yes :)
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  331. # [11:41] <jgraham> try: input.decode("utf-8"); except UnicodeDecodeError: review.add_issue("Your source is in the wrong encoding. Please use UTF8.")
  332. # [11:42] <foolip> jgraham: yes, or input.decode("utf-8", errors="replace") :)
  333. # [11:44] <Ms2ger> Nah, what jgraham said
  334. # [11:44] <hsivonen> annevk: maybe. more likely if my domain experiences "DNSSEC suicide" for the third time...
  335. # [11:44] <hsivonen> annevk: DNSSEC is probably the fourth post in my queue of blog post ideas
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  337. # [11:45] <annevk> hsivonen: ah shit, I just changed the Preface
  338. # [11:45] <hsivonen> (the three ahead of it are: "You should work on Firefox OS and self-hostable services if you want Software Freedom for phones", "You only need 3 or 4 ciphersuites" and "Character Encoding Menu in 2014")
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  340. # [11:48] <annevk> those are all great, please take a week to write them :)
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  342. # [11:49] <hsivonen> annevk: very productive to try to use a religious snowclone to end a bikeshed about wordsmithing non-normative text not to be offensive
  343. # [11:49] * Ms2ger appears to be missing context on that one
  344. # [11:50] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26693#c4
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  346. # [11:52] <Ms2ger> Ta
  347. # [11:54] <hsivonen> annevk: the new text is good. gives less rationale than my suggestion, but the less you say, the less text there is for people to complain about
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  349. # [11:56] <annevk> I'll see about integrating some of it, the extra rationale is actually nice
  350. # [11:58] <hsivonen> now that I'm disillusioned about DNSSEC, maybe I should ask my ISP to support IPv6
  351. # [11:59] <annevk> Did you see http://tack.io/ btw?
  352. # [11:59] <annevk> Although https://lists.riseup.net/www/arc/tack/2014-01/msg00001.html suggests it might be dead
  353. # [11:59] <hsivonen> annevk: I'm aware of TACK
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  356. # [12:02] <jgraham> Wow, GitHub finally got side-by-side diffs
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  358. # [12:03] <annevk> hsivonen: you think it might work for replacing CAs?
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  375. # [12:35] <othermaciej> jgraham: thanks!
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  379. # [12:39] <hsivonen> annevk: it seems to me that TACK still needs CAs for the first connection
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  384. # [12:54] <hsivonen> annevk: if you are looking for encoding permathreads to debate, Thunderbird just improved its encoding UI but shows both windows-1252 and iso-8859-1 as distinct items: https://hg.mozilla.org/comm-central/rev/f2a455fd8e80
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  392. # [13:11] <JakeA> Any indexeddb experts awake? If I have an index with two keys, say ['name', 'birthdate'], how do I open a cursor for a specific name but any birthday (but in birthdate order)
  393. # [13:11] <JakeA> ?
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  396. # [13:15] <hsivonen> it's been too long since I've paid attention to html5lib tests
  397. # [13:17] <hsivonen> please remind my what happened to the SVG filterRes attribute
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  400. # [13:18] <hsivonen> html5lib explicitly tests for it *not* getting camelCased
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  402. # [13:23] <hsivonen> oh. awesome. the html5lib test format has changed
  403. # [13:23] <hsivonen> that's why things are failing
  404. # [13:24] <jgraham> hsivonen: Blame Hixie
  405. # [13:24] <hsivonen> jgraham: for test format or filterRes?
  406. # [13:24] <jgraham> Test format
  407. # [13:24] <jgraham> But maybe both! Who knows :)
  408. # [13:24] * hsivonen blames Hixie
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  413. # [13:32] * hsivonen is quite unamused by the #script-on / #script-off stuff
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  416. # [13:44] * hsivonen finds https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24900
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  443. # [13:54] <hsivonen> oh. great. there are three other attributes that got un-camelCased
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  450. # [14:09] <caitp-> how about element names?
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  468. # [14:50] <Domenic> I forget ... did anyone propose measuring DOMRectList.prototype.item usage to see if we can remove it in favor of Array?
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  470. # [14:53] <Ms2ger> You did just now
  471. # [14:53] <Domenic> I don't want to re-propose it if someone already found a bunch of popular GItHub libraries using it...
  472. # [14:57] <foolip> Domenic: do you mean measuring ClientRectList.item in Blink?
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  475. # [15:06] <Domenic> foolip: yeah
  476. # [15:09] <foolip> Domenic: I can make it so if the relevant spec editors want it. zcorpan?
  477. # [15:09] <Ms2ger> Make it sp
  478. # [15:09] <Ms2ger> so
  479. # [15:10] <foolip> Domenic: or are you already a Chromium/Blink committer?
  480. # [15:10] <zcorpan> foolip: want what? nuke ClientRectList?
  481. # [15:11] <Domenic> foolip: I am definitely not a committer, although I really should start committing some stuff sometimes soon :)
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  483. # [15:11] <jgraham> It's a little known fact that in his high school yearbook foolip was voted "Person most likely to go on to measure web platform feature usage"
  484. # [15:11] <foolip> zcorpan: whatever it is one does to make it Array-like I guess.
  485. # [15:12] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, yeah, nuke
  486. # [15:12] <Ms2ger> If possible
  487. # [15:12] <Domenic> zcorpan: the proposal on the table is to use-counter ClientRectList.prototype.item and if it's not used then DOMRectList can die in favor of plain old Array.
  488. # [15:13] <zcorpan> foolip: http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/geometry/#DOMRectList already has [NoInterfaceObject, ArrayClass]
  489. # [15:13] <foolip> interesting
  490. # [15:13] <zcorpan> it should make it array-like as i understand it but item() is still there
  491. # [15:13] <foolip> so is ClientRect and ClientRectList a WebKit-only thing?
  492. # [15:14] <Ms2ger> foolip, they got renamed
  493. # [15:14] <zcorpan> no it was Client* in the spec earlier
  494. # [15:14] <Ms2ger> It would be nice to go arraylike -> array
  495. # [15:14] <foolip> best outcome is adding DOMRect and then failing to remove ClientRect :)
  496. # [15:15] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: sure
  497. # [15:15] <Domenic> foolip: oh god now i am afraid that will happen :(
  498. # [15:15] <foolip> :)
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  500. # [15:16] <jgraham> s/best/most likely/
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  502. # [15:16] <Ms2ger> Gecko's already killed ClientRect
  503. # [15:17] <foolip> if you want to talk to someone with an actual clue about where Blink is going with these interfaces, jinho.bang@samsung.com and Rik Cabanier seem to be the relevant people
  504. # [15:18] <zcorpan> i think i tried to research usage of ClientRect/ClientRectList and, iirc, there was some item() usage but people didn't rely on the name of the interface object
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  506. # [15:18] * foolip wishes "Gecko doesn't have X" would automatically count as justification for removing X
  507. # [15:19] <Ms2ger> Make it so
  508. # [15:20] <foolip> Here are a few silly things in that category: Event.srcElement, Event.cancelBubble, Window.offscreenBuffering, Document.charset, Document.defaultCharset
  509. # [15:21] <foolip> offscreenBuffering is my favorite, it's always true and enjoys ~0.2% usage
  510. # [15:21] <Ms2ger> Nice
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  513. # [15:22] <Ms2ger> Sadly, browser sniffing makes that argument invalid :/
  514. # [15:22] <foolip> Indeed
  515. # [15:23] <Domenic> we should all copy IE11 Mobile's user agent string
  516. # [15:23] <Domenic> Or, perhaps more realistically, all desktop browsers should have the same UA string.
  517. # [15:24] <zcorpan> Domenic: it is indeed a race to the bottom, except there is no bottom
  518. # [15:24] <Ms2ger> Except that the first browser to copy another UA string disappears from statistics
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  520. # [15:24] <Domenic> Ms2ger: oh, I didn't think of that :(
  521. # [15:25] <Ms2ger> And there's an argument to be made that statistics are a legitimate use case
  522. # [15:25] <Domenic> yeah
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  524. # [15:25] <jgraham> Presumably statistics are the intended use case
  525. # [15:25] <jgraham> Otherwise wtf were they thinking?
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  528. # [15:26] <foolip> when the UA string can't be trusted you get something equally horrible: https://github.com/zynga/core/blob/cd2a5e639a603d4d327fea57fa3bb6c3b554d5d0/src/core/detect/Engine.js
  529. # [15:26] <foolip> sorry Gecko, you don't get to remove XULControllers, whatever that is
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  531. # [15:26] <foolip> although this one did have a fallback that may work, I don't know
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  533. # [15:27] <jgraham> That sounds like a thing we tried to remove and couldn't because of UA detection
  534. # [15:28] <foolip> I found it because of WebKitPoint, a recent removal I'm hoping won't get reverted because of nonsense like this
  535. # [15:28] <Domenic> IE mobile' strategy is a nice try though, I must say. I love how on my phone simultaneously a bunch of sites looked a lot better, and a bunch of sites started offering "install app from the Google Play Store" buttons.
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  547. # [15:32] <Ms2ger> foolip, yeah, we tried to remove it, there's a shim in its place
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  603. # [16:32] <annevk> hsivonen: baby steps, seems like
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  626. # [16:49] <zcorpan> wait... standard markdown has processing instructions and CDATA blocks?
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  628. # [16:53] <jgraham> ?!
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  630. # [16:56] <jgraham> Oh I guess "PIs" are for PHP
  631. # [16:56] <zcorpan> yeah. and CDATA for "XHTML" probably
  632. # [16:56] <jgraham> Because obviously using markdown to generate PHP to generate HTML is sensible
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  634. # [16:58] <jgraham> Pretty sure that it should be a requirement that if you use either of those features the markdown processor will uninstall itself from your system, or refuse to grant you further access (if remotely hosted)
  635. # [16:59] <caitp> hah
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  655. # [17:22] <zcorpan> Hixie_: looking at web-apps-tracker, maybe we should drop google-gears and add blink? or is "opera" code for blink now? :-)
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  659. # [17:27] <Ms2ger> Heh, google gears
  660. # [17:28] <ondras> q
  661. # [17:28] <ondras> oops typo.
  662. # [17:29] <zcorpan> annevk: i don't follow how web-apps-tracker works :-(
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  689. # [18:11] <Hixie_> hsivonen: i believe i tried to get your feedback on all those issues, fwiw :-)
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  692. # [18:14] <annevk> zcorpan: what do you need guidance on?
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  734. # [19:21] * Sample thinks if anyone is trying to grab a filename from a file inputs value attribute their code -should- break/be inherently considered broken
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  741. # [19:35] <jgraham> Sample: That's a fine thing to think, but if your bank is doing it, browsers change their behaviour, and you lose access to your account in a way that costs money, it feels like you aren't going to go "oh my bank had inherently broken code, so this is quite a reasonable outcome"
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  751. # [19:46] <Sample> jgraham: yeah, unfortunately as well they had followed a specification at some point when they wrote that =/ sad
  752. # [19:46] <Sample> this must be the story of your guys' life
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  774. # [20:18] <caitp> annevk, what if we had a way to do a better job of url resolution? like, a base content attribute for any elent, which if specified, would use a base tag with an appropriate id
  775. # [20:19] <caitp> (and by default, would use the first <base> tag in the document, or the usual url resolution procedure)
  776. # [20:20] <caitp> or maybe even automatically figuring out which base to use based on the element type or namespace or something
  777. # [20:22] <caitp> i'm just throwing ideas around, but it really sucks that you can only have one base that applies to all types of content :(
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  789. # [20:30] <annevk> there was xml:base, but it was pretty terrible perf-wise and not really implemented well
  790. # [20:30] <annevk> in any event, you should start with use cases
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  792. # [20:33] <caitp> well, the use cases are many, but there are some big ones --- SPA frameworks tend to give a second meaning to <base> tags, and unfortunately angular now requires it (the alternative was just too problematic for browsers that didn't support history), so people now have issues because they need to use one <base> for angular, and then have to specify all of their other content using fully qualified URIs
  793. # [20:34] <caitp> but I mean, I've had other use cases for it myself, like just generally needing to look for assets on a different domain while generally using the current domain and default base for everything else
  794. # [20:34] <caitp> fully qualified URIs kind of suck in case domain registration or other deployment details change
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  847. # [23:04] <mathiasbynens> why is `<body id=b onload=b.innerHTML=1>` not equivalent to `<body onload=innerHTML=1>`? i’d expect both to set `document.body.innerHTML` to `1`
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  849. # [23:04] <mathiasbynens> does the latter assign to `document.innerHTML` instead?
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  859. # [23:10] <Hixie_> mathiasbynens: "this" in both cases is the global object (window)
  860. # [23:10] <Hixie_> mathiasbynens: so in the latter case you're doing window.innerHTML = 1
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  864. # [23:12] <mathiasbynens> but for inline event attributes like that there are three ‘scopes’, right? the element itself, the parent form (if any), and the global object
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  868. # [23:13] <mathiasbynens> for example, <p onmouseover=innerHTML=1>. does set the innerHTML of the `<p>` to `1` on hover
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  870. # [23:14] <Hixie_> mathiasbynens: <body onload> (along with several other <body> event handlers) are special cases
  871. # [23:14] <Hixie_> mathiasbynens: in that they're not body's event handlers, they're window's event handlers
  872. # [23:14] <Hixie_> mathiasbynens: but since there's no <window> element, <body> acts as a convenience proxy for them
  873. # [23:14] <Hixie_> setting body.onload or <body onload> is equivalent to setting window.onload
  874. # [23:14] <mathiasbynens> ah, that explains it – thanks Hixie_!
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  876. # [23:15] <Hixie_> note that this means you can't catch an event 'load' that bubbles through a <body> element with an onload handler
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  878. # [23:15] <Hixie_> which leads to funny results when your markup is <html onload="t(event)"> <body onload="t(event)"> <div onload="t(event)"> and you fire a bubbling 'load' event at the div
  879. # [23:16] <mathiasbynens> hah
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  890. # [23:46] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: is there a specific spec i should reference for display: newline? I'm update the <br> default stylings per our last conversation on the matter back in july
  891. # [23:47] <Hixie_> i guess i don't actually ref specs in the rendering section's style sheets actually
  892. # [23:49] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: hm, looks like 'display-box' has gone away
  893. # [23:49] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: what property should i use for br's newline behaviour?
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  895. # [23:52] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: display-box changed name to box-suppress (but it's not what you want for newline)
  896. # [23:52] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: If you're going to assume it exists, it's a display-outside value.
  897. # [23:52] <Hixie_> k
  898. # [23:53] <Hixie_> do you want me to reassign the bug to you once i've done my side?
  899. # [23:53] <TabAtkins> Sure.
  900. # [23:53] <Hixie_> k, will do. Thanks. If things change, feel free to reassign to me again.
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  905. # Session Close: Fri Sep 05 00:00:00 2014

The end :)