/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-09-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Sep 05 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  14. # [00:26] <Hixie_> does nobody yet implement hit regions on canvas?
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  17. # [00:27] <Hixie_> i see bugs suggesting people have implemented it...
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  20. # [00:28] * Hixie_ wonders what he's doing wrong
  21. # [00:29] <Hixie_> cabanier: didn't you implement hit regions in mozilla at least? i can't get it to work
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  23. # [00:29] <Hixie_> i found a bug where you checked code in, and that was months ago
  24. # [00:29] <Hixie_> more than a release cycle, at least
  25. # [00:30] <cabanier> Hixie_: you need to turn it on in about:config
  26. # [00:30] <Hixie_> aah
  27. # [00:30] <Hixie_> is it still buggy?
  28. # [00:30] <cabanier> canvas.hitregions
  29. # [00:30] <cabanier> Hixie_: yes.
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  31. # [00:31] <Hixie_> ah, ok
  32. # [00:31] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  33. # [00:31] <Hixie_> cabanier: do you know anything about clearHitRegions() ?
  34. # [00:31] <cabanier> Hixie_: I need to finish it but keep getting pulled away.
  35. # [00:31] <cabanier> Hixie_: I didn't implement that one yet
  36. # [00:31] <Hixie_> cabanier: like, why it was proposed? i'm trying to work out if it's something i should spec. i can't work out what it's for and nobody seems to implement it.
  37. # [00:31] <cabanier> ah
  38. # [00:32] <cabanier> Hixie_: the hit regions are not removed by drawing over them so there needs to be a way to remove them from the canvas
  39. # [00:33] <Hixie_> oh this is for people who just draw opaque stuff and never clearRect() ?
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  41. # [00:33] <cabanier> yes
  42. # [00:34] <Hixie_> and it just clears the entire list?
  43. # [00:34] <cabanier> Hixie_: a clearRect on the entire canvas should have the same effect
  44. # [00:34] <cabanier> yes
  45. # [00:34] <Hixie_> fair enough
  46. # [00:34] <Hixie_> seems a bit blunt but i guess why not if people don't need to call clearRect()
  47. # [00:34] <cabanier> yeah
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  97. # [02:30] <zewt> 2014, where it's a search engine hunt just to figure out how to fix the bug where firefox doesn't bother to ask where you want to download a file
  98. # [02:33] <JonathanNeal> Hello again.
  99. # [02:34] <JonathanNeal> Our family moved to Georgia over the weekend, and I had to stop work on the table sortable polyfill. Did someone else wrap it up or is it still needed?
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  111. # [02:43] <JonathanNeal> Hixie_: is there a table sortable polyfill?
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  117. # [03:03] <caitp> there was almost a real implementation, almost ;) but it was not to be
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  120. # [03:04] <Hixie_> JonathanNeal: not to my knowledge
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  122. # [03:04] <JonathanNeal> caitp: how so?
  123. # [03:04] <Hixie_> JonathanNeal: but there's plenty of sortable table scripts, which is what the spec was based on
  124. # [03:05] <caitp> blink folks didn't like the idea of making it a core platform feature
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  126. # [03:06] <caitp> gecko is slightly further along (in that they've got microdata which is tangentially used by the sorting api), but they haven't really started it either and it's not clear if they'd want to
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  129. # [03:07] <caitp> i guess you could always ask ms2ger or someone if they'd be willing to let you implement in gecko
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  134. # [03:11] <caitp> without an intent for having core implementations, it's not clear that a polyfill is any more meaningful than another sorting library --- but I guess the world could always use another sorting library, for when they decide they didn't like the previous one
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  136. # [03:13] <JonathanNeal> Yea, I made it almost as far as the complex magic that changes based on the kinds of elements you have, but Hixie gave me some great data to work with. If it’s okay for it to be public and there isn’t a test already, we should write a test.
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  213. # [07:02] <zcorpan> annevk: i was checking if it would be trivial to fix https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26121 but i don't know what to do
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  259. # [09:34] <boogyman> zcorpan: how do you define "changes" in the context of that report?
  260. # [09:34] <zcorpan> boogyman: commits for https://github.com/ResponsiveImagesCG/picture-element/blob/gh-pages/source
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  262. # [09:37] <boogyman> that appears as if it's documentation related to some specification, but not necessarily directly impacting the <picture> element (per se)
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  268. # [09:56] <annevk> zcorpan: so web-apps-tracker has a local git checkout and does its comparisons on that
  269. # [09:57] <zcorpan> annevk: ok
  270. # [09:57] <annevk> zcorpan: most of that logic is at the end, at the start it's formatting functions
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  277. # [10:47] <annevk> Domenic: second commit in that GitHub blog post is Servo implementing a recent change to DOM
  278. # [10:48] <annevk> W3C DOM was last updated mid-April, so much for keeping it up to date
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  281. # [10:58] <annevk> JakeA: I guess I should make the change for .bodyUsed and .json() etc. right?
  282. # [10:58] <annevk> JakeA: nobody commented on the thread
  283. # [11:00] <annevk> JakeA: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/445 needs your review
  284. # [11:03] <JakeA> annevk: I'm happy with the .bodyUsed changes
  285. # [11:04] <JakeA> Will read that thread now
  286. # [11:04] <JakeA> The ticket I mean
  287. # [11:04] <annevk> Thanks. I'll look into obsoleting FetchBodyStream now then. Should have a bit of time today and during the weekend
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  299. # [11:46] <JakeA> annevk: should we have response.xml() so we don't regress on XHR
  300. # [11:46] <JakeA> Or does no one care?
  301. # [11:46] <JakeA> I don't know if I care
  302. # [11:46] <JakeA> XML is dead to me
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  304. # [11:47] <jgraham> heh
  305. # [11:48] <annevk> JakeA: no, that's a layering violation
  306. # [11:51] <annevk> JakeA: at some point we might want an async XML parser API that takes a response
  307. # [11:55] <jgraham> Or we might "put XML out to pasture" (i.e. shoot it in the head and boil it's carcasds to make glue)?
  308. # [11:55] <jgraham> *carcass
  309. # [11:58] <Jirka_> There are many APIs which provide only XML, not JSON. And JSON is not the best format for all use-cases. So droping XML seems silly.
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  311. # [12:00] <JakeA> jgraham: I approve of the glue approach
  312. # [12:01] <Ms2ger> Why not lasagna?
  313. # [12:02] <JakeA> Jirka_: there'll always be https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/DOMParser
  314. # [12:02] <JakeA> annevk: where's the violation (not disagreeing, just curious)
  315. # [12:03] <annevk> JakeA: making Fetch dependent on XML
  316. # [12:03] <annevk> JakeA: JSON is arguably on that line too, but since it's built into JavaScript...
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  318. # [12:03] <JakeA> annevk: also formData & blob?
  319. # [12:03] <annevk> JakeA: see a thread about adding asHTML() or some such on WHATWG a while back
  320. # [12:04] <annevk> there's even a note under FetchBodyStream explaining this
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  322. # [12:06] <JakeA> gotcha
  323. # [12:13] <Jirka_> I understand layering doubts, but if there is asJSON(), having asDocument() for HTML/XML would be very convenient
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  325. # [12:15] <annevk> I'm not inclined to reopen http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2014Jun/thread.html#msg72
  326. # Session Close: Fri Sep 05 12:17:47 2014
  327. #
  328. # Session Start: Fri Sep 05 12:17:47 2014
  329. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  330. # [12:17] * Disconnected
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  332. # [12:19] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  333. # [12:19] * Topic is 'http://www.whatwg.org/ — logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ — stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html — Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  334. # [12:19] * Set by annevk!~annevk@207.218.72.65 on Tue Mar 25 11:47:32
  335. # [12:19] <annevk> JakeA: should fetch() do anything in particular if it's passed a request whose bodyUsed returns true?
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  337. # [12:21] <JakeA> annevk: should reject
  338. # [12:21] <JakeA> annevk: it needs to read the body & can't
  339. # [12:21] <annevk> I guess that's fair, the alternative was to just assume the body was empty
  340. # [12:22] <annevk> but rejecting makes it prolly clearer you want to clone your Request first or some such
  341. # [12:22] <annevk> oh right, .clone()
  342. # [12:22] <annevk> sadness
  343. # [12:22] <annevk> this is going to be quite a bit of work
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  345. # [12:23] <JakeA> Yeah, I'd rather every method that needs to read body rejects if the bodyUsed is true
  346. # [12:23] <annevk> ooh :(
  347. # [12:23] <annevk> fetch() is defined as invoking Request's constructor
  348. # [12:24] <Jirka_> annevk: fair enough, I missed that thread
  349. # [12:25] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, imagine .clone is tough to define, although I think this stuff is *huge* for the platform
  350. # [12:25] <annevk> well it's a huge hack :p
  351. # [12:25] <annevk> clone() should be okay, defining fetch() with less trickery might be hard
  352. # [12:25] <JakeA> annevk: got https://jakearchibald.github.io/trained-to-thrill/ working offline yesterday & it felt like THE FUTURE
  353. # [12:26] <JakeA> (in Chrome Canary anyway)
  354. # [12:27] <annevk> JakeA: so... you used to be able to do new Request(request, dict)
  355. # [12:28] <annevk> JakeA: that was basically clone(), with restrictions so you can't end up with privileged Request objects
  356. # [12:28] <annevk> JakeA: maybe we should just keep that as a way of doing a tee?
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  358. # [12:33] <JakeA> annevk: new Request(request, dict) - it feels like this would exhaust bodyUsed
  359. # [12:33] <annevk> that seems fine too
  360. # [12:34] <annevk> and throws if bodyUsed is set?
  361. # [12:34] <JakeA> I prefer .clone, but I can live with new Request(request, dict) as a way to clone
  362. # [12:34] <JakeA> yeah
  363. # [12:34] <annevk> ah okay, that actually makes this change easier :-)
  364. # [12:34] <annevk> we'll leave clone() distinct
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  370. # [12:45] <JakeA> annevk: I get the feeling this is all coming together nicely. Some bikeshedding needed with the cache API todo, but it's really getting there. Who'd have thought it.
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  372. # [12:48] <JakeA> annevk: if I respondWith an opaque response to XHR, XHR should onerror. How do you want to do this? Should XHR reject the response it gets back, or should it be a fetch flag such as "requires-untainted-response"?
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  374. # [12:49] <JakeA> So fetch would send back a network error to XHR
  375. # [12:49] <annevk> JakeA: my idea was that we'd update all APIs to deal with the new response primitive
  376. # [12:50] <annevk> JakeA: implementations however might prefer that flag variety, but it doesn't seem as nice
  377. # [12:50] <JakeA> annevk: works for me. Will feed that back into https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=411151
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  396. # [13:39] <annevk> JakeA: jgraham: https://github.com/whatwg/fetch/commit/a898f9a2941350aa625aa79b24673628ac2b2a8e
  397. # [13:41] <jgraham> annevk: Nice
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  400. # [13:44] <annevk> I called it a mixin, anticipating a matching IDL change
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  405. # [13:57] <hsivonen> I guess now it's my turn to extend the html5lib test format
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  407. # [13:59] <hsivonen> proposal: the line following #document-fragment can be prefixed with "svg " or "math " to indicate the non-HTML namespace of the context node
  408. # [13:59] <hsivonen> using space instead of colon is consistent with the format for expected test output
  409. # [13:59] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I suggested that just after you went afk when you discussed this before :)
  410. # [13:59] <gsnedders> hsivonen: so +1 for that
  411. # [13:59] <hsivonen> and makes it possible to test names with colon
  412. # [14:00] <hsivonen> gsnedders: ok. thanks
  413. # [14:00] <gsnedders> (or rather I suggested using a colon and zcorpan pointed out that's not what the expected format was, but as mentioned that was me misremembering it rather than anything else)
  414. # [14:01] <zcorpan> hsivonen: lgtm
  415. # [14:03] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
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  418. # [14:05] <zcorpan> i think #document-fragment is a bit cryptic but i guess it would be work to change it and people don't care
  419. # [14:05] <zcorpan> #context-element would be clearer
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  423. # [14:06] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I'd prefer to avoid the churn of changing it
  424. # [14:07] <zcorpan> yeah
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  439. # [14:27] <hsivonen> so fragment parsing turns off the foreign lands breakout weirdness
  440. # [14:28] <hsivonen> but the <p><table> thing still varies by quirks mode in fragment parsing
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  450. # [14:51] <JakeA> annevk: \o/
  451. # [14:51] <JakeA> annevk: Regarding the XHR opaque response stuff, could you update the XHR spec? https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=411151#c4
  452. # [14:54] <annevk> JakeA: perhaps we should do this in Fetch...
  453. # [14:55] <annevk> JakeA: XMLHttpRequest's request mode is CORS or CORS-with-forced-preflight, so if the SW returns something that contradicts the mode, make it a network error
  454. # [14:55] <annevk> JakeA: respondWidth() could even error
  455. # [14:55] <annevk> respondWith()
  456. # [14:56] <JakeA> annevk: but a request to the same origin won't be CORS, it still needs to reject an opaque response
  457. # [14:56] <annevk> JakeA: mode is still CORS
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  459. # [14:57] <annevk> JakeA: see http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-request-mode
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  462. # [14:57] <annevk> JakeA: only a couple of APIs actually use the same-origin mode
  463. # [14:57] <JakeA> annevk: ohhh! I thought a same-origin XHR would be no-cors
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  466. # [14:58] <JakeA> if it's CORS, then I agree, we can handle it all in fetch
  467. # [14:58] <annevk> JakeA: no, <img> is no-cors
  468. # [14:58] <annevk> JakeA: document.load() is same-origin
  469. # [14:58] <annevk> JakeA: <img crossorigin> is CORS
  470. # [14:58] <annevk> JakeA: file a bug on Fetch I guess, not sure I can fix it today
  471. # [14:59] <JakeA> annevk: Cool. I'd had the same idea as you but thought it wouldn't work because of local requests. Doh. That makes things a lot easier then.
  472. # [14:59] <annevk> I have an enormous backlog and I'm not actually supposed to be working
  473. # [14:59] <JakeA> no worries, not urgent
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  478. # [15:12] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, around?
  479. # [15:12] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: for a few more minutes yes
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  481. # [15:13] <Ms2ger> When POSTing to a data url with XHR, what should .status return?
  482. # [15:13] <Ms2ger> Or annevk ^
  483. # [15:15] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: dunno
  484. # [15:15] <Ms2ger> Alright, thanks
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  490. # [15:27] <Ms2ger> (Figured it out)
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  503. # [15:36] <annevk> Ms2ger: Fetch
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  581. # [18:08] <annevk> jgraham+++++++
  582. # [18:08] <annevk> that might not actually work
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  584. # [18:09] <annevk> jgraham+=10
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  587. # [18:09] <jgraham> Heh
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  589. # [18:10] <jgraham> I don't think the first one parses
  590. # [18:10] <annevk> I guess it's not the thought that counts when you hit a compiler error
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  594. # [18:14] <caitp> would it be a bad thing to have a method of HTMLFormElement which assembles a FormData object automatically? that seems like a nice feature that people have already polyfilled a lot
  595. # [18:14] <jgraham> Certianly not from the point of view of the compiler :)
  596. # [18:15] <caitp> and pretty trivial to implement in a private script, for that matter
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  598. # [18:16] <jgraham> caitp: Seems like a reasonable idea
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  608. # [18:33] <arunranga> annevk, the underlying model of file reading now should be reusable by Fetch. The problems are in synchronous access in the API, but I think that’s a small difference; you should always use it asynchronously I think.
  609. # [18:35] <arunranga> Hixie_, there’s some ‘spec bugs’ to make ES’s function Realm reusable for script origin purposes. An example is: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1058470 which refers to https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26603 .
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  614. # [18:43] <annevk> caitp: new FormData(<form>) does that
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  621. # [18:55] <caitp> I suppose it does, but it doesn't do the rest of it
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  623. # [18:57] <caitp> somehow things keep being done in weird ways in this platform rather than how you'd expect it to be done :)
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  628. # [19:06] <caitp> like, suppose you wanted a list of VIN numbers parked in a given parking lot --- the `new FormData()` option is like going to the paper factory and asking them to create a set of papers containing vin numbers from <parking lot>, whereas my suggestion is more like asking the parking lot manager for a list of vin numbers in the lot
  629. # [19:07] <caitp> the first option is just totally backwards =)
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  631. # [19:08] <annevk> no disagreement
  632. # [19:08] <annevk> I recommend reviewing APIs that are still in their infancy to make sure we don't make similar mistakes elsewhere
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  636. # [19:15] <smaug____> hmm, which spec defines offsetTop these days?
  637. # [19:15] <annevk> smaug____: hasn't changed: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/
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  639. # [19:15] <smaug____> thanks
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  653. # [19:36] <erlehmann> Hixie_ i have done an art (is there prior art?) http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/bin/mimesniff.html
  654. # [19:37] <erlehmann> i need some algorithm to perform the pattern mask stuff in shell
  655. # [19:37] <erlehmann> have not figured that out
  656. # [19:37] <erlehmann> JonathanNeal how is your table sort going?
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  661. # [19:44] <Hixie_> erlehmann: ?
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  663. # [19:44] <erlehmann> Hixie_ i have started implementing the mime sniffing in bourne shell.
  664. # [19:44] <erlehmann> are you aware of any other implementations?
  665. # [19:44] <Hixie_> i but what why why would you do that in a shell
  666. # [19:44] <Hixie_> browsers all implement some variant of that spec
  667. # [19:45] <Hixie_> but dunno how closely
  668. # [19:45] <erlehmann> my blog software, hipster news, is a shell script. its only dependency is busybox or coreutils
  669. # [19:45] <erlehmann> and file(1) is not among busybox
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  672. # [19:45] <erlehmann> i thought it would be a good thing if i had a command line tool that matches what browser think
  673. # [19:45] <Hixie_> you wrote web-facing software using a shell script?
  674. # [19:46] <Hixie_> oh man, that's a security nightmare waiting to happen
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  676. # [19:46] <erlehmann> Hixie_ it is a *static site generator*
  677. # [19:46] <Hixie_> that amost beats the guy i know who wrote a functioning vt100 emulator in bash script
  678. # [19:46] <Hixie_> oh, static
  679. # [19:46] <Hixie_> ok
  680. # [19:46] <erlehmann> it is invoked from a git hook.
  681. # [19:46] <Hixie_> that's still crazy but far less so
  682. # [19:47] <erlehmann> http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net is regenerated every time i git push to one of its repositories
  683. # [19:47] <erlehmann> most files are html or plain text
  684. # [19:47] <erlehmann> but i am working on media support, so i can just throw binaries in there and make it do *the right thing*
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  686. # [19:49] <erlehmann> whole blog software is 250 LOC and i aim for less.
  687. # [19:49] <JonathanNeal> erlehmann: haven’t worked on it since moving to Georgia!
  688. # [19:50] <JonathanNeal> But I got a chance to pull the project to my wife’s laptop last night, so now I can continue. I just wasted my time in specification, too, so I’m definitely ready to tinker. http://discourse.specifiction.org/t/extending-classlist-methods-to-allow-regexp/585/5
  689. # [19:50] <erlehmann> Hixie_ people build static site generators in less than 100 LOC http://wcm1.web.rice.edu/colophon.html
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  691. # [19:50] <erlehmann> the most complexity with mine is figuring out how to manage atom ids
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  693. # [19:50] <JonathanNeal> I love specification, even though it’s way more dead now. I wish I could get paid just to play there.
  694. # [19:50] <erlehmann> i even have XSLT that creates HTML out of feed :3 http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/bin.atom
  695. # [19:51] <erlehmann> but i have to go!
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  697. # [19:54] <Hixie_> all the sites i write these days are just static data that communicates over websocket to a server somewhere
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  699. # [19:54] <Hixie_> no static code generation, just static code :-)
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  761. # [21:59] <annevk> https://twitter.com/dalecruse/status/507950215702511616
  762. # [22:03] <miketaylr> lol
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  764. # [22:07] <jgraham> hahahaha
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  766. # [22:08] <jgraham> It's like kids say the most embarassing things, but not kids
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  768. # [22:16] <Sample> This w3c and whatwg civil war is crazy
  769. # [22:17] <Sample> this seems to have the ease of resolution as a religious conflict
  770. # [22:17] <Hixie_> there's not really a civil war
  771. # [22:17] <Hixie_> there's a bunch of people doing good work at both the w3c and whatwg
  772. # [22:18] <Hixie_> and then there's a small number of people at the w3c, copying the work from those at the whatwg, and publishing it at the w3c.
  773. # [22:18] <Hixie_> and a small number of people at the whatwg who are frustrated by this and asking for them to stop
  774. # [22:18] <Hixie_> that's pretty much it
  775. # [22:22] <Sample> okay, so long as the people who direct the small number of w3c people are in agreement with whatwg this sounds pretty non-problematic/resolveable
  776. # [22:23] <Hixie_> there are no people who direct the small number of w3c people in question
  777. # [22:23] <Hixie_> it's, like, the w3c ceo
  778. # [22:23] <Sample> that's an unusual hierarchy
  779. # [22:23] <Hixie_> what is?
  780. # [22:24] <Sample> employees of an organization with no organization
  781. # [22:24] <Sample> they just do whatever they please?
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  783. # [22:25] <caitp> the political landscape of the web is probably too complicated to really accurately draw up in an irc conversation
  784. # [22:26] <caitp> or book
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  787. # [22:30] <Sample> do members/employees of these organizations all work remotely? I presume there isn't a physical headquarters where everyone sits together in a cubicle all day
  788. # [22:31] <Hixie_> i'm confused
  789. # [22:32] <Hixie_> the w3c is a pretty normal organisation as far as this goes
  790. # [22:32] <Hixie_> they have a CEO and people who work for the CEO, and there's also people for other companies who work with them
  791. # [22:32] <Hixie_> those are the people who do the aforementioned copying
  792. # [22:33] <Hixie_> the WHATWG isn't an organisation in the same sense, it's just a bunch of people, most of which work for various companies, who work on specs in a common venue
  793. # [22:33] <Hixie_> these people all work On The Internet, some in similar locations as others, but spread all over the world
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  795. # [22:33] <Hixie_> (except africa, mostly)
  796. # [22:34] <Hixie_> (and very few in south america)
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  812. # [22:54] <Sample> btw someone should submit <something>/form-data to the IANA to at least allow people to start choosing to out out or migrate away from the specification breaking x- prefixed and overly verbose application/x-www-form-urlencoded that I suppose Tim Berners-Lee is responsible for
  813. # [22:54] <Sample> opt out*
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  827. # [23:19] <hober> Sample: application/x-www-form-urlencoded is here to stay. why do you think we can move away from it?
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  833. # [23:26] <caitp> speaking of things which are a bit underspecified, wouldn't it be great if the interpretation and serialization of query parameters were stronger --- or rather, if it existed at all? I mean sure a lot of webservers would do the wrong thing, but it would be just beautiful if there were an expected behaviour other than "make it work the way jquery does it"
  834. # [23:26] <caitp> heck, would make things easier for URLUtils too
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  838. # [23:33] <Sample> hober: I do think we can, yes. the burdeon would only lie on those whose primary job is to ensure their webservers are standards compliant
  839. # [23:33] <caitp> deprecating things is hard :(
  840. # [23:33] <caitp> removing things is even harder :( it would be lovely if it were easier
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  843. # [23:36] <Hixie_> Sample: just imagine "x-" means "excellent-" instead of "experimental-"
  844. # [23:36] <Sample> x-www will never be removed but we can enable application developers to move away from it
  845. # [23:37] <Sample> lol
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  849. # [23:41] <hober> why? what would moving away from it get them?
  850. # [23:42] <caitp> but in practice, clients aren't going to start sending whatever-new-mimetype unless servers understanding it, and servers aren't likely to start understanding whatever-new-mimetype unless clients send it
  851. # [23:42] <Sample> hober: standard compliance with the MIME spec? sanity?
  852. # [23:42] <hober> how is application/x-www-form-urlencoded not sane?
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  854. # [23:42] <Sample> rehtorical question
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  857. # [23:45] <caitp> you could also reframe http://xkcd.com/927/ to apply to this, for better or worse
  858. # [23:45] <caitp> if you were to consider a specific mimetype to be a "standard"
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  860. # [23:47] <Sample> caitp is at least making a point. and that's totally true and understood. but if "Server X" values standards and does the likely simple implementation of understanding the new mime type in the same manner it understands the original, what's the loss
  861. # [23:48] <Sample> additionally those who write backends can now in a compliant manner opt to use something that seems less totally antiquated/accidental/incidental
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  865. # [23:50] <hober> the loss is the engineering required to implement/test/etc a redundant value.
  866. # [23:50] <Sample> I'm not suggesting anything backwards incompatible. it's the same premise as a company developing an internal tool and using API's that don't exist in IE9, they are targeting towards modern implementation
  867. # [23:50] <hober> would this new media type actually do anything different than the one we already have? if not, there is no reason to mint it
  868. # [23:50] <Sample> it would absolutely not
  869. # [23:51] <caitp> the point being made is that it's pretty cosmetic
  870. # [23:51] <Sample> or that it offers the use of something compliant with the MIME spec
  871. # [23:51] <Sample> with extraordinary little overhead
  872. # [23:52] <Sample> purely opt-in
  873. # [23:52] <hober> i must be missing something
  874. # [23:52] <Sample> it's slightly odd to me that this is an issue of "good enough"
  875. # [23:54] <Hixie_> Sample: standard compliance with the MIME spec is not a goal in and of itself. Standards compliance is a tool, the goal being interoperability. We have interoperability here (quite a lot of it, considering).
  876. # [23:54] <Hixie_> Sample: also, re sanity... see /topic
  877. # [23:55] <Sample> we don't need an actual IANA approved and spec compliant mime type for this because what we have is "not bad enough". if it were x-IlllIlIlIl it would cross the threshold of "bad enough"
  878. # [23:56] <caitp> if anyone had the chance and ability to do so without negative consequence, they'd throw away the status quo and replace it with something that was well-designed and built to last, where nothing ever needed to be thrown away or replaced
  879. # [23:56] <Hixie_> it could x-\0\0\0 and be "good enough" -- the criteria isn't based on what hte name looks like, it's based on how interoperable it is.
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  882. # [23:59] <Sample> I may totally be off basis and I value your guys judgements immensely. It is polish, I agree. But I don't think that righting this wrong is any more abusive than creating new APIs. They exist for a better future. In this case, it would be trivial to support
  883. # Session Close: Sat Sep 06 00:00:00 2014

The end :)