/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-09-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Sep 06 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <hober> synonyms are not zero-cost
  4. # [00:00] <Sample> I agree
  5. # [00:00] <Hixie_> Sample: why is it a "wrong"
  6. # [00:00] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@unaffiliated/maurice)
  7. # [00:00] <Sample> if no single web server implementer chose to support it it wouldn't matter
  8. # [00:01] <caitp> wouldn't it though? if clients were sending it?
  9. # [00:01] <Sample> Hixie_: the x- prefix
  10. # [00:01] <Hixie_> Sample: Why is the x- prefix wrong?
  11. # [00:02] <Sample> Hixie_: it carries the implication it's not a standard type
  12. # [00:02] <Hixie_> Sample: why is the implication that it's not a standard type a bad thing?
  13. # [00:03] <Sample> because it clearly is. there is a standard to that type. it should be recorded through IANA and documented as such
  14. # [00:03] <Sample> I didn't make up these rules =P
  15. # [00:03] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.204)
  16. # [00:04] <caitp> but it's cosmetic because people treat it as a standard type
  17. # [00:04] <Hixie_> Sample: it's not clearly a bad thing. You think it's a bad thing. Others don't. Hence my question: why do you think it's a bad thing that there is an implication that this standard type is not in fact a standard type?
  18. # [00:06] <Hixie_> caitp: it _is_ a standard type. It's specced at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#application/x-www-form-urlencoded and was sent to the ietf/iana in http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf-types/current/msg01711.html and is listed in http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/media-types.xhtml
  19. # [00:06] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  20. # [00:06] <caitp> yes, in spite of the implication
  21. # [00:06] <caitp> that is what I'm saying
  22. # [00:07] * Quits: encryptd_fractl (~encryptd_@23.30.224.246) (Remote host closed the connection)
  23. # [00:07] <caitp> although picking through the ietf cardboard boxes to find evidence of it, yikes :p
  24. # [00:10] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@2001:450:1f:224:1da5:b9ad:eaff:261b) (Remote host closed the connection)
  25. # [00:10] <Sample> oh that's interesting, I didn't realize they accepted it as a standard and kept the prefix
  26. # [00:11] <Hixie_> (even if they hadn't it would change nothing to my argument)
  27. # [00:11] <Hixie_> my point is that standards don't matter
  28. # [00:11] <Hixie_> interoperability is what matters
  29. # [00:11] <Hixie_> standards are nothing but a tool to help that along
  30. # [00:11] <Hixie_> if we have interoperability, then the job of the standards is done
  31. # [00:12] <Hixie_> and any additional change could only lead us away from interoperability, which is a bad thing
  32. # [00:13] <Sample> I suppose Chrome could start only sending application/form-data headers on form submissions which only "Google Web Server" would accept but... seems rather far fetched =D
  33. # [00:13] <caitp> which brings up the point I mentioned earlier, why can't we have specific rules for serialization and interpretation of search queries in urls, because there are so many inconsistent and non-interoperable ways to do it ;-;
  34. # [00:13] <caitp> sigh, websites >:(
  35. # [00:14] <Sample> I write code that IE9 never knew about. Hell I can choose to write code that IE10 should have but didn't implement because it's more elegant. I should also be able to write a server knowing exactly what application will send to it that accepts a non RFC contradicting beautiful mime type
  36. # [00:15] <Sample> just my two cents. I realize that there is some seriously vehiment opposition to the notion
  37. # [00:15] <caitp> nah, tbh it's a friday afternoon, it's hard to be particularly vehement about anything
  38. # [00:16] <caitp> heck, still procrastinating on preparing for my conference talk in 2 weeks
  39. # [00:16] <Sample> hober will die on his sword before the day he seems a mime type that conforms to RFC 1521 as an alternative to the incidental original =P
  40. # [00:16] <Sample> sees*
  41. # [00:16] <Hixie_> Sample: i'm just trying to understand why you think it's a bad thing that there is an implication that this standard type is not in fact a standard type
  42. # [00:17] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@199.71.174.203) (Quit: Leaving...)
  43. # [00:17] <Sample> Hixie_: bad is totally subjective. I'm trying to simply say that having a standard prefixed with an x- violates RFC 1521
  44. # [00:17] <Sample> that's my only argument
  45. # [00:18] <Hixie_> Sample: ok. Why is having a type that violates RFC 1521 a "wrong" that needs to be righted?
  46. # [00:18] * Joins: jensnockert (~jensnocke@145.243.200.0)
  47. # [00:19] <caitp> > to indicate its non-standard status and to avoid a
  48. # [00:19] <caitp> potential conflict with a future official name. --- maybe they should replace "indicate" with "connotate"
  49. # [00:20] <caitp> that would make everything better
  50. # [00:21] <hober> Sample: I will? Why does everyone always refer to my death in standards discussions?
  51. # [00:21] <hober> ( this actually has happened more than once. e.g. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Feb/0062.html )
  52. # [00:21] * Quits: haydogsup (~haydogsup@cpe-173-175-100-229.satx.res.rr.com) (Quit: haydogsup)
  53. # [00:22] <hober> I think the conclusion here is that 1521bis should allow application/x-www-form-urlencoded since it is interoperable.
  54. # [00:22] <Hixie_> the existence of that entire thread is such a sad reflection of humanity
  55. # [00:23] <Sample> lol
  56. # [00:23] * Sample looks suspiciously at Hixie_'s trick question =P
  57. # [00:24] <Sample> did you ask why is violating the RFC considered a wrong that needs to be righted?
  58. # [00:24] <Hixie_> yes
  59. # [00:24] <Sample> it's like the philosophical dicussion of why is murder considered bad
  60. # [00:24] <jgraham> …
  61. # [00:24] <caitp> *headscratch*
  62. # [00:25] <Hixie_> Sample: this implies that for you, standards-compliance is a goal in and of itself, with no ulterior motive. is that right?
  63. # [00:25] <Sample> bad is a violation of the law?
  64. # [00:26] <Sample> I get what you're saying though. The fact that it works supercedes the fact that it violates RFC
  65. # [00:27] <Hixie_> personally i'm saying the fact that it violates the RFC is literally of no consequence whatsoever.
  66. # [00:27] <Sample> Non-conformance with specs is totally okay
  67. # [00:27] <hober> it's only evidence that the rfc should be updated to reflect interoperable reality
  68. # [00:27] <Hixie_> sample: imho, conformance with specs is not a goal.
  69. # [00:27] <hober> specs that don't reflect reality are the most boring form of science fiction
  70. # [00:27] <jgraham> hober++ :)
  71. # [00:27] <Sample> that's cute =P
  72. # [00:28] <jgraham> Sample: hober is quoting something Hixie said some years ago I believe :)
  73. # [00:28] <Hixie_> i wish it had convinced more than like the four of you who hang out here regularly. :-P
  74. # [00:28] <Sample> I guess all I'm left ot wonder is how would adding a mime type which is both (subjectively) more sane and actually abides by the RFC going to cause a pandemic of interoperability
  75. # [00:29] * Quits: paulohp (~paulohp@187.121.82.241)
  76. # [00:29] <Hixie_> Sample: it isn't. It will cause no benefit and minimal harm.
  77. # [00:29] <Hixie_> Sample: but no benefit and minimal harm is still a net harm.
  78. # [00:29] <Hixie_> see also http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#Where.27s_the_harm_in_adding.E2.80.94
  79. # [00:29] <caitp> unless nobody ever implemented it
  80. # [00:30] <Hixie_> Sample: to put it another way. There's two ways we could fix this. We could add a new type, which requires changing a spec and multiple implementations, or, we could change the one spec that says x- is bad, which would require nothing but changing that spec.
  81. # [00:30] <Hixie_> Sample: how do you determine which of these options is the better option?
  82. # [00:31] <jgraham> Well if no one ever implements something, someone wastes some time trying to specify it. Which could be a useful educational exercise. People possibly also waste some time deciding to not implement it, which probably isn't
  83. # [00:31] <Sample> Hixie_: adding a new type would NOT require ANY implementations
  84. # [00:31] <Sample> it is simly an allowance
  85. # [00:31] <Sample> and you cannot change x- without causing serious problems to everyone who uses the header as intended
  86. # [00:32] <caitp> but if nobody was going to implement it, what would be the point in specifying it
  87. # [00:32] <Hixie_> Sample: i'm not sure i understand your proposal exactly. Can you elaborate?
  88. # [00:34] <Sample> leave the glaring problem. leave the RFC as-is. admit the misake and the (necessary) violation. add application/form-data which is a content type with a standard expectation (defined in the HTML specification)
  89. # [00:34] <Hixie_> anyone know anything about the interaction of Exposed and Global in WebIDL? Do I really need to say Global=Foo,Exposed=Foo? Or does Global=Foo imply Exposed=Foo?
  90. # [00:34] <Sample> and we've given birth allowance
  91. # [00:34] <Hixie_> i can't tell from reading the webidl spec
  92. # [00:34] <Hixie_> Sample: when you say
  93. # [00:34] <Hixie_> uh
  94. # [00:35] <Sample> to* allowance
  95. # [00:35] <Hixie_> Sample: when you say "with a standard expectation", what is that expectation? like, what would it mean for someone to use this type? where would we see it?
  96. # [00:35] <Sample> in the same way that the ever evolving ECMAScript specification does. it allows you to use something more elegant, to fix mistakes, but it isn't necessary. and you must known your target
  97. # [00:36] <Hixie_> no i mean concretely
  98. # [00:36] <Hixie_> where would it be used?
  99. # [00:36] <Sample> if I use something new I must have a reasonable expectation that I know exactly what client will be consuming my work
  100. # [00:36] <Hixie_> is this a type a server sends to another server? a browser posts to a server? what?
  101. # [00:37] <Sample> Hixie_: it doesnt matter
  102. # [00:37] <caitp> doesn't heycam sit in here?
  103. # [00:37] * Quits: jensnockert (~jensnocke@145.243.200.0) (Remote host closed the connection)
  104. # [00:37] <Hixie_> Sample: well if you want me to spec something it kinda matters that i know what you want me to spec
  105. # [00:38] <caitp> might be a good person to ask re: webidl confusion
  106. # [00:38] <Sample> Hixie_: the standard expectation for application/form-data is the expectation of how the data will arive/can be parsed, as defined in the HTML specification
  107. # [00:38] <Sample> it doesn't matter how you use the content type, it's just a content type
  108. # [00:39] <Sample> there is no requirement "this must only be used by proxies"
  109. # [00:39] <Sample> or some such
  110. # [00:39] <Hixie_> Sample: it matters if it's a type that browsers are required to send or a type that servers are allowed to send
  111. # [00:39] <Hixie_> Sample: because if it's a type that browsers are required to send, then it's a non-backwards-compatible breaking change
  112. # [00:40] <Sample> does any mime type demand it's requirement? it's just a suggestion of how to understand the payload
  113. # [00:40] <Sample> there is of course absolutely no requirement the browers send it
  114. # [00:41] <Hixie_> well for example the x-www mime type we were talking about earlier is the type we require that browsers send when you do a form submission
  115. # [00:41] <Sample> it would be a terribly bad idea for them, I think the browser would immediately significant popularity =P
  116. # [00:41] <Sample> Hixie_: is it really mandated somehow? or is it a suggestion for how to encode data
  117. # [00:41] <Hixie_> so if we're trying to provide a new type for x-www-..., and we require that browsers keep using the old x-www-... type, then the entire exercise is rather pointless
  118. # [00:41] <Hixie_> it is what the HTML spec requires
  119. # [00:42] <Hixie_> but more importantly
  120. # [00:42] <Hixie_> it's what's needed for interoperability
  121. # [00:44] <Sample> no I'm definitely not suggesting we're trying to do-away with the x-www
  122. # [00:44] <Sample> as I said leave the glaring problem. leave the RFC as-is. admit the misake and the (necessary) violation. add application/form-data which is a content type with a standard expectation (defined in the HTML specification)
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  124. # [00:45] <Hixie_> so what are you suggesting? we introduce a new type that does nothing useful? (as in, since browsers never send it, and nobody else ever has a reason to send it?)
  125. # [00:45] <Sample> I would rephrase that to say, that does nothing new, yes
  126. # [00:45] <Hixie_> ok so what is the value here?
  127. # [00:46] <Sample> what is the value to being able to forEach a NodeList? old code doesn't need it
  128. # [00:46] <Hixie_> i don't know. I'm not proposing that we be able to forEach a NodeList.
  129. # [00:46] <Sample> it's an allowance
  130. # [00:46] <Hixie_> an allowance to whom? we've just established that we're _not_ going to allow browsers to send it.
  131. # [00:47] <caitp> that has been proposed though (making HTML collections inherit from Array)
  132. # [00:47] <Sample> and I can decide to do something more properly or more elegantly. oops, we made a mistake. instead of forcing that upon you, here's an alternative. langauges do it all the time
  133. # [00:47] <Hixie_> there's nobody else who ever needs to send this type.
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  137. # [00:47] <Hixie_> but you said we _should_ keep forcing the old type on browsers
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  139. # [00:47] <Hixie_> i'm not understanding who this is an allowance for.
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  141. # [00:48] <Sample> programmatic form submission
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  143. # [00:48] <Sample> I'm obviously not talking about what the web browsers do
  144. # [00:48] <caitp> but if servers don't understand application/form-data, then the browser would have to translate it before sending
  145. # [00:49] <Sample> browsers use content types too, yes
  146. # [00:49] <caitp> and i'm not sure that would go over very well
  147. # [00:49] <Sample> caitp: I'm not suggesting browsers send anything but x-www (for a long while)
  148. # [00:49] <Hixie_> wait you want this type just so that one server can talk to another server? nothing to do with browsers?
  149. # [00:49] <caitp> you're saying "let people specify it programmatically" :z
  150. # [00:49] <caitp> which means that someone would have to translate it back in order to ensure that it's understood
  151. # [00:50] <Sample> yes, browsers use Content types, that's completely irrelevant to my discussion =P
  152. # [00:50] <Sample> they are ONE of the things that use content types
  153. # [00:50] <Hixie_> if you just want a new type for server-to-server communication, then (a) just go ahead and use the type, nobody else will be affected, and (b) if you want to register it, go ahead, nobody else will be affected :-)
  154. # [00:50] <Sample> lol okay
  155. # [00:51] <Sample> I forsee a world where we all rejoice knowing that we've enabled a more beautiful future some fine day, far, far away =P
  156. # [00:52] <caitp> that's what they said when they invented top 40 radio, and look how that turned out
  157. # [00:52] <Sample> whatwg doesn't think only through the lens of a web browser do they? =P
  158. # [00:52] <Sample> especially when it breaks nothig a web browser does
  159. # [00:52] <caitp> well there's a distinction between the internet and the world wide web, I guess
  160. # [00:53] <Hixie_> Sample: having two types to do the same thing is not more beautiful than having one, imho :-)
  161. # [00:54] <caitp> but what if it were a rainbow of seven types
  162. # [00:54] <caitp> positioned in an aesthetically pleasing manner
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  164. # [00:54] <jgraham> Plus you never actually reach the beautiful future because more cruft accumulates as you try to get there
  165. # [00:56] <hober> if you won't believe us, believe this season's doctor who opener. there is no promised land.
  166. # [00:56] <Sample> I think enabling a compliant choice of beauty outside the realm of the browser is better than a mandate of (what is liekly subjectively agree'd upon) ugly
  167. # [00:57] <Sample> hey guys I can't save the world but I can pick up some litter and hope that we at least do that much in the face of a chaotic world =P
  168. # [00:58] <hober> i don't think that analogy works. a better analogy is that minting a redunant type is littering
  169. # [00:58] <hober> something something occam
  170. # [00:58] <Sample> see my last comment for a response =P
  171. # [00:58] <Sample> err second to last, now 3rd
  172. # [00:58] <caitp> https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/create surely if obama says to do it, everyone will have to do it
  173. # [00:58] <jgraham> Even if you think this is a real improvement, it seems hard to justify putting any effort at all into fixing it giving how many more serious issues there are for the internet in general and the web in particular
  174. # [00:59] <Sample> jgraham: that's my point, like Hixie said, there isn't any effort involved. I should just submit it to IANA (somehow)
  175. # [00:59] <caitp> (how is the webmata petition coming? that was an amusing one)
  176. # [00:59] <jgraham> Well the oppertunity cost of this conversation is non-zero
  177. # [01:00] <Sample> jgraham: agreed! feel free to move onto more important matter at any time =)
  178. # [01:00] <Sample> i was just curious to poll you guys on this topic
  179. # [01:01] <caitp> https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/help-fund-new-w3c-distributed-web-webmata-wwwwebmataorg/P0THLXWH still sitting at just one signature, aww
  180. # [01:01] <Sample> my other form suggestions went over very well =P
  181. # [01:01] * tantek perks up at "distributed web"
  182. # [01:02] * tantek notes http://www.webmata.org/ …. is a PDF. #dogfoodfail
  183. # [01:02] <caitp> I'm pretty sure it was created as a joke
  184. # [01:02] <caitp> because the authors signature is just too suspect
  185. # [01:02] <tantek> "Furry Baby Boo" ?
  186. # [01:02] <tantek> perhaps this is one of those machine-generated papers
  187. # [01:03] * Quits: Sample (~Sample@unaffiliated/sample) (Quit: Weekend.)
  188. # [01:04] <tantek> where's the button to "Report Petition as fake" ?
  189. # [01:04] <caitp> do they have one? i'm not sure anyone at the whitehouse actually moderates or reads the petition site at all
  190. # [01:05] <caitp> or in DC, or in the country
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  201. # [01:28] <TabAtkins> Oh, wow. That webmata thing... It's like a Markov Babbler, but just sensical enough to have clearly been written by a real person.
  202. # [01:29] <TabAtkins> It trips all of my "schizophrenic crackpot" alarms, though.
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  208. # [01:56] <TabAtkins> Domenic: Inline biblio works now. Just add a <pre class=biblio>, containing JSON in the SpecRef format.
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  268. # [04:28] <erlehmann> mimesniff now can into text/html http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/bin/mimesniff.html
  269. # [04:29] <erlehmann> regarding features, it is only missing the bitmask.
  270. # [04:29] <erlehmann> anyone having an idea how to do this in shell?
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  309. # [06:23] <terinjokes> Domenic: should I bother IDLing any of this?
  310. # [06:23] <terinjokes> getting the hang of the document formatting
  311. # [06:24] <caitp-> console is an interface, so you probably do want to IDL it
  312. # [06:24] <terinjokes> wonder if my choice of "any" for most of the arguments is acceptable
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  317. # [06:36] <terinjokes> and does specifying a type as "array of arrays" even make sense?
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  324. # [06:52] <terinjokes> (i ask because it doesn't seem possible to inlcude such a thing)
  325. # [06:58] <caitp-> you might be able to do (type[])[]
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  327. # [06:59] <caitp-> I'm not sure if anyones idl compilers would need updates for that
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  329. # [06:59] <caitp-> well
  330. # [06:59] <caitp-> it would be a syntax error i think
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  332. # [07:02] <terinjokes> also thinking about other ways to write out the IDL
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  334. # [07:06] <caitp-> in blink, the idl uses extended attributes that don't exist in the spec, but it's probably the only way you can really do it
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  337. # [07:17] <terinjokes> yeah, i'd noticed the extended stuff when hunting down docs
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  373. # [09:33] <annevk> terinjokes: yeah, for the console API I expect most of it to take any
  374. # [09:34] <annevk> caitp-: http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#application/x-www-form-urlencoded is the query format
  375. # [09:35] <terinjokes> annevk: yep, that's what i've got so far
  376. # [09:35] <caitp-> that's not "the query format", because it leaves many things unspecified (which is where the whole "jQuery style vs PHP vs ...." nonsense comes from, which is driving me crazy on bug trackers and why am I still awakeohgod)
  377. # [09:35] <annevk> terinjokes: what's mostly important about this API spec is that it clarifies what kind of methods are exposed
  378. # [09:35] <caitp-> rules for interpreting things like repeated query strings, or query[], or query[a], etc
  379. # [09:36] <caitp-> that stuff is all totally unspecified anywhere
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  381. # [09:36] <annevk> caitp-: there are no rules for those
  382. # [09:36] <annevk> caitp-: that's application-layer stuff
  383. # [09:36] <caitp-> exactly, and that is what sucks
  384. # [09:36] <annevk> meh
  385. # [09:36] <caitp-> for one thing if there were rules, URLUtils's search object would be a lot more useful
  386. # [09:46] <Ms2ger> if (navigator.userAgent.match('Gecko/(\\d+)') && RegExp.$1 == '20060217' && RegExp.$1 != '00000000') {
  387. # [09:46] <Ms2ger> Guess the site
  388. # [09:50] <annevk> Ms2ger: google.com
  389. # [09:51] <Ms2ger> Actually, the live dom viewer
  390. # [09:51] <annevk> Now I'm curious :-)
  391. # [09:53] <annevk> I don't really see what difference that causes
  392. # [09:54] <Ms2ger> Oh, I guess the tree view styles were really broken in Gecko back then
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  466. # [15:51] <erlehmann> i think i understand the pattern mask
  467. # [15:51] <erlehmann> >>> chr(0x41), chr(0x61), chr(0xDF & 0x41), chr(0xDF & 0x61)
  468. # [15:51] <erlehmann> ('A', 'a', 'A', 'A')
  469. # [15:51] <erlehmann> Hixie_ is the mime sniff algorithm normative or descriptive? i may be trying to detect text/tab-separated-values
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  471. # [15:53] <erlehmann> oh, you are not the current editor
  472. # [15:53] <erlehmann> whom of you is Gordon P. Hemsley <me@gphemsley.org>?
  473. # [15:54] <erlehmann> anyone knows why the mp4 matching is so weird? http://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/#signature-for-mp4
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  484. # [16:31] <annevk> JakeA: dude, https://twitter.com/jaffathecake/status/508258170398343168 is so true
  485. # [16:31] <annevk> JakeA: one of the reasons I'm afraid of background updates going wrong
  486. # [16:32] <JakeA> G+ did the same until a couple of months ago
  487. # [16:32] <annevk> erlehmann: don't do MP4 :-)
  488. # [16:32] <JakeA> I guess it's still an area of UX newness
  489. # [16:32] <annevk> erlehmann: algorithms are meant to be normative however
  490. # [16:32] <JakeA> (my trains demo did it too, just fixing it up now)
  491. # [16:33] <erlehmann> annevk i probably will not do mp4, yes. do you have any idea how to do the bitmasking in shell script, btw? http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/bin/mimesniff.html
  492. # [16:33] <erlehmann> thx
  493. # [16:34] <erlehmann> “Hey I've got some new data, you're probably not reading the stuff currently on screen right?" *replaces everything*” is one of the reasons i seldom allow js for social media sites
  494. # [16:35] <erlehmann> whomever came up with that (and infinite scrolling, hey, lets allocate memory forever) needs to be subjected to the savage beatings antipattern
  495. # [16:36] <annevk> erlehmann: I can recommend stackoverflow :-)
  496. # [16:37] <erlehmann> standard stackoverflow or common stackoverflow? ;----DDDDD
  497. # [16:37] <erlehmann> they should rename it to common stack!
  498. # [16:43] <Ms2ger> Tsk tsk
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  500. # [16:43] <Ms2ger> We don't condone violence here
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  503. # [16:53] <erlehmann> Ms2ger http://cssquirrel.com/blog/2012/10/01/the-savage-beatings-anti-pattern/
  504. # [16:53] <erlehmann> ;)
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  574. # [19:55] <erlehmann> mimesniff(1) can now do pattern masking http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/bin/mimesniff.html
  575. # [19:55] <erlehmann> i must admit it is a bit slow
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  583. # [20:47] <Ms2ger> Is that seriously written in shell?
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  597. # [21:13] <Ms2ger> Nice: http://www.w3.org/mid/E1XPZQR-0002NO-U7@dalton.invalid
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  619. # [21:40] <ericandrewlewis> does the whatwg or w3c define html5 spec?
  620. # [21:40] <boogyman> neither, because there is no "HTML5"
  621. # [21:42] <ericandrewlewis> there's just HTML as far as whatwg is concerned?
  622. # [21:43] <boogyman> HTML is a living document.
  623. # [21:43] <caitp> people do call it html5 though, whether they're talking about 2009 or 2015
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  625. # [21:44] <ericandrewlewis> w3c thinks that there's an html5 tho
  626. # [21:48] <Ms2ger> The W3C HTML5 and 5.1 documents are both more and less out-of-date forks of the HTML Living Standard
  627. # [21:50] <ericandrewlewis> cool
  628. # [21:50] <ericandrewlewis> well, not cool, but thanks for the info :)
  629. # [21:50] <Ms2ger> Np
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  631. # [21:56] <smaug____> caitp: "html5" is a buzzword and under that term there are plenty of other specs than just HTML. All the CSS stuff and XHR etc.
  632. # [21:56] <caitp> that's how the public recognizes it
  633. # [21:56] <smaug____> (mostly thanks to Google's pr )
  634. # [21:57] <caitp> and it's perfectly fair, because you're seldom going to see one without the other
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  636. # [22:02] <smaug____> yeah, I guess so
  637. # [22:03] <smaug____> it is just confusing to have HTML5 spec, HTML spec, HTML 5.1 and then the HTML 5 which contains more than just HTML
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The end :)