/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-09-12 / end

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  49. # [01:01] <Hixie_> anyone got IE who can test http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=3099 for me?
  50. # [01:01] <Hixie_> i just need the output in the "Rendered view:" bit. This is for https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25929
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  53. # [01:05] <kamome_> Hixie: Thanks again, data for openingHours works for validator.w3.org as well as for www.google.com/webmasters/tools/richsnippets
  54. # [01:05] <Hixie_> coolio
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  81. # [02:00] <kamome_> Hixie: Also reportet to schema.org (and answered a few questions on SE/SO)
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  160. # [05:31] <roc> wow, James Salsman is still alive!
  161. # [05:33] <roc> at CMU in the mid-90s Salsman was already fading into legend
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  214. # [08:09] <annevk> jgraham: I'm not sure I follow
  215. # [08:10] <annevk> Seems StartSSL and sleevi_ had a short Twitter exchange, lol
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  221. # [08:26] <hsivonen> I'm somewhat uneasy about using StartSSL and going crazy with minting certs that cost nothing to mint after identity validation, because each cert minted there *might* cost $25 later if there's a need to revoke
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  223. # [08:26] <hsivonen> still, for wildcards, $60 plus maybe $25 later is better than $150 up front
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  225. # [08:27] <hsivonen> for non-wildcards, $15 up front may be better than $25 later if it happens to be a Heartbleed year
  226. # [08:28] <hsivonen> FWIW, the reason why my site doesn't have a StartSSL cert is that I got an "XMPP cert" from StartSSL for hsivonen.fi and then tried to mint a Web server cert for hsivonen.fi
  227. # [08:29] <hsivonen> StartSSL didn't allow me to mint two certs for hsivonen.fi and wanted me to revoke the first one
  228. # [08:29] <hsivonen> the revocation would have cost more than a new cert from Gandi
  229. # [08:29] <hsivonen> dunno if this works differently when you've been identity validated for $60
  230. # [08:35] <annevk> I think I would still have to pay for revocation
  231. # [08:36] <annevk> It seems like they could automate revocation as well though and make that free too
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  233. # [08:37] <hsivonen> annevk: charging for revocation is consistent with their business model of charging for things that cost them money
  234. # [08:37] <hsivonen> annevk: the revocation infrastructure costs them money
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  236. # [08:38] <annevk> Because of the traffic?
  237. # [08:38] <hsivonen> which is sad, considering how useless the revocation infrastructure is currently
  238. # [08:38] <hsivonen> annevk: right
  239. # [08:38] <annevk> I saw revocation basically only works if you use EV
  240. # [08:38] <annevk> At least in 2013
  241. # [08:38] <hsivonen> annevk: I believe that's correct
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  245. # [08:40] <hsivonen> (I really need to find the time to add SNI support to Validator.nu)
  246. # [08:41] <annevk> hsivonen: you implement TLS yourself?
  247. # [08:41] <hsivonen> (the main reason why validator.nu isn't behind https already is the ridicule of it not being able to validate itself if it were)
  248. # [08:41] <hsivonen> annevk: no. I mean upgrading enough things to make SNI work
  249. # [08:41] <annevk> Why could it not validate itself?
  250. # [08:41] <hsivonen> annevk: including upgrading HttpClient, whose new version is API-incomptabile and requires me to rewrite a bunch of stuff
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  252. # [08:42] <hsivonen> annevk: I'm not going to buy IP addresses for each host name, so it would be SNI, but V.nu can't connect with SNI as a client
  253. # [08:43] <hsivonen> for the server piece, I'd probable terminate TLS in nginx instead of Java
  254. # [08:43] <annevk> hsivonen: oh I see, so you could not validate whatwg.org once we'd add HSTS
  255. # [08:43] <hsivonen> annevk: the validator doesn't know about HSTS, but it would follow a redirect and then fail
  256. # [08:43] <annevk> That's what I meant, yes
  257. # [08:44] <hsivonen> also, to make Java approximate browser behavior as a clien, I'd need to upgrade to OpenJDK 8
  258. # [08:45] <hsivonen> last I checked, it hadn't been packaged for Ubuntu yet
  259. # [08:45] * hsivonen goes check again
  260. # [08:45] <hsivonen> (still better than implementing UTF-8 myself for PHP way back when)
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  262. # [08:46] <hsivonen> still not openjdk-8 in trusty
  263. # [08:47] <annevk> hsivonen: did StartSSL want you to mint a certificate for both XMPP and web usage?
  264. # [08:49] <hsivonen> annevk: their UI suggests that XMPP certs and Web certs are different
  265. # [08:49] <hsivonen> annevk: Prosody's tools suggest the same
  266. # [08:49] <hsivonen> annevk: I *think* XMPP certs have some weird OIDs
  267. # [08:49] <hsivonen> annevk: I don't know why
  268. # [08:49] <annevk> hsivonen: agreed, so I'm wondering what they wanted you to do for the XMPP certificate
  269. # [08:50] <hsivonen> annevk: probably the expectation was that I'd mint it for a different host name or something
  270. # [08:50] <hsivonen> annevk: dunno if that part of the UI was well tested
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  272. # [08:50] <hsivonen> the UI for sure doesn't warn you about stuff like this
  273. # [08:51] <annevk> It's interesting that there were still people involved for that part
  274. # [08:51] <annevk> I thought that once you had a domain validated, you could just issue away
  275. # [08:52] <hsivonen> annevk: I don't think there were any people involved
  276. # [08:53] <hsivonen> the UI just said that if I wanted a Web server cert for hsivonen.fi, I should revoke the XMPP cert I had already minted
  277. # [08:53] <hsivonen> with no UI warning about traps like this when minting the XMPP cert
  278. # [08:53] <annevk> That is really too bad
  279. # [08:55] <annevk> I think I only want web so I'm probably good. Although maybe at some point I can figure out email...
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  283. # [09:05] <annevk> mounir: it's extremely unclear what commit actually fixed my issues with screen orientation
  284. # [09:05] <annevk> mounir: the handling of comments was rather terrible from a reviewer's perspective
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  303. # [09:57] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: the "HTML - <img>" bugzilla bug doesn't reproduce in bugzilla.mozilla.org afaict
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  308. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: ok
  309. # [10:03] * MikeSmith considers looking through changelogs to see when it was fixed
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  311. # [10:04] <hsivonen> Ubuntu Utopic has openjdk-8 in Universe
  312. # [10:04] <hsivonen> should I host V.nu on a prerelease OS?
  313. # [10:05] <hsivonen> surely it would be natural to backport openjdk-8 to Trusty
  314. # [10:05] <hsivonen> but it's not there
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  317. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I run debian testing on my server, so I'd vote yes
  318. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> though if you do it I'd suggest you don't have it set to do (apt) autoupdate
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  324. # [10:15] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: wow. living on the edge
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  326. # [10:19] <annevk> Domenic: http://jiggity.com/steve.html is nice
  327. # [10:19] <annevk> Domenic: Steve Jobs fanfic
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  331. # [10:23] <tantek> annevk that's amazing
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  334. # [10:24] <ondras> 844 passing (35s)
  335. # [10:24] <ondras> 28 failing
  336. # [10:25] <ondras> promises tests be damned.
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  338. # [10:34] <ondras> Domenic: so now my promise impl passes all 872 tests, but the test runner seems to "freeze" after reporting all success. Looks like there is an infinite eventloop (strace reports epoll_wait calls)...
  339. # [10:34] <ondras> Domenic: do you have any suggestion regarding this? Is it possible that this behavior is caused by my impl?
  340. # [10:35] <ondras> (I am using the "promises-aplus-tests" node package)
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  348. # [11:00] <ondras> Domenic: ah, somehow "adopting state of another promise" results in an infinite settimeout loop (in my impl) while passing the test suite .)
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  356. # [11:11] <niloy> Is there anyway I can get window.performace.timing info for ajax calls?
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  359. # [11:25] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: the <hgroup> example in http://html5.org/r/8759 shows some unimplemented things in v.nu
  360. # [11:26] <mounir> annevk: sorry about that, I think I used another PR to fix the issue you pointed
  361. # [11:27] <mounir> annevk: I might have "CC'd" you, not 100% certain
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  366. # [11:34] <hsivonen> Is this Blink behavior supported by the spec http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/3177 ?
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  369. # [11:34] <hsivonen> I want to argue we should put "bar" in the HTML namespace
  370. # [11:35] * hsivonen goes read the spec
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  373. # [11:39] <hsivonen> aargh. Blink's behavior is correct per spec
  374. # [11:39] <hsivonen> I'm not sure I like this
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  378. # [11:43] <hsivonen> Hixie_: is it intentional that the HTML fragment parsing algorithm can now create nodes that aren't in any of the HTML, SVG and MathML namespaces?
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  383. # [11:51] <jgraham> hsivonen: Woah
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  385. # [11:52] <jgraham> Although I guess it somewhat matches what you might expect
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  391. # [12:09] <zcorpan> hsivonen: that's not what i expected at least
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  394. # [12:20] <annevk> It's somewhat unexpected that the <div> is still in the HTML namespace
  395. # [12:22] <jgraham> Yeah, the fact that it's different for the two elements is pretty weird
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  397. # [12:26] <Domenic> ondras: wow! If you can write a test that fails would love to have that in the suite :)
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  411. # [12:56] <annevk> Anyone have a reference to that post where Hixie_ references all the editions of the <canvas> spec?
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  413. # [13:00] <Ms2ger> Don't find anything in my inbox
  414. # [13:09] <jgraham> annevk: Got any time for https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/2555 ? (seems to be a small XHR test fixup)
  415. # [13:16] <annevk> jgraham: done
  416. # [13:17] <annevk> jgraham: would be nice if it automatically merged afterwards if it could
  417. # [13:18] <jgraham> Yeah, there was an idea to have a "Merge" button in the critic UI, but it didn't happen because I didn't figure out the permissions issues. Although maybe it could just work with the critic bot user.
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  419. # [13:20] <Ms2ger> But travis
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  485. # [15:45] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: about <hgroup> what's an example of something that's not implemented in v.nu?
  486. # [15:45] <MikeSmith> (the escaped markup in the source is pretty hard to read)
  487. # [15:46] * MikeSmith looks at the corresponding rendered part in the spec
  488. # [15:46] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: onclose, method=dialog, inputmode, autocomplete
  489. # [15:47] <MikeSmith> ah
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  498. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> where is onclose specified?
  499. # [16:13] <MikeSmith> nm
  500. # [16:14] <Ms2ger> What onclose?
  501. # [16:14] <Ms2ger> Oh, dialog
  502. # [16:15] <foolip> mounir: pong, a few days later :)
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  512. # [16:35] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: one down https://github.com/validator/syntax/commit/759f868090c28137f420bde9b139ec6da21ef121 and looking at the rest now
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  514. # [16:36] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: awesome!
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  518. # [16:51] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3process/2014Sep/0099.html and this is only identified now?
  519. # [16:52] <annevk> o_O (need a bigger O)
  520. # [16:53] <jgraham> Well I think they got the wrong idea tbh. What they should work on is not having "errata" as a thing.
  521. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> hmm, "Bad value walletSetup.continue(this.returnValue) for attribute onclose on element dialog: missing name after . operator"
  522. # [16:55] <jgraham> It's probably worth considering why bz got that response when the same thing has been said in different ways for a number of years
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  525. # [17:00] <annevk> Well yeah, errata as such is not really the problem. It's specifications being out of date
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  554. # [18:03] <Hixie_> jgraham: he looks to me to have gotten the same response as everyone else
  555. # [18:03] <Hixie_> jgraham: "oh so problem is [restate problem in a way that's easier to do in a bureaucracy]*? *don't do anything*"
  556. # [18:03] <Hixie_> uh, with one less *
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  558. # [18:04] <Hixie_> annevk: http://damowmow.com/temp/canvas-specs but please copy-paste rather than referencing, and note that that is itself somewhat out of date now
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  560. # [18:05] <Hixie_> hsivonen: it is not intentional that the HTML fragment parsing algorithm can now create nodes that aren't in any of the HTML, SVG and MathML namespaces, but i must admit to not having paid enough attention to the fragment case
  561. # [18:08] <jgraham> Hixie_: Perhaps. It seemed to me that there was a lot less denying that there was an issue when an implementor who is not noted as someone with a stake in the spec-political-process came along and said "the W3C is failing me". But I could just be projecting what I thought ought to happen.
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  564. # [18:08] <Hixie_> i have often felt that, in the moment, jeff has completely agreed with what i've said
  565. # [18:08] <jgraham> s/failing me/failing me, and here's a specific example/
  566. # [18:09] <Hixie_> only to find that my request gets completely corrupted and turned into something much less useful over time, and eventually results in a change that is of no use to me
  567. # [18:09] <Hixie_> so the proof here will be in whether errata are trivial to issue six months from now
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  569. # [18:10] <jgraham> It is certianly true that change has been somewhere between slow and non-existant
  570. # [18:10] <Ms2ger> That's not the question
  571. # [18:10] <Ms2ger> The question is if they are issued, not if they can be
  572. # [18:11] <Hixie_> that too
  573. # [18:11] <Hixie_> that's actually the key way in which jeff made it sound like he agreed with bz but didn't really
  574. # [18:11] <Hixie_> notice how he changed a question of fundamental priorities into a question of volume of red tape
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  577. # [18:13] <Hixie_> zcorpan: man, you're awesome. thanks. (re https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26786 in this case, but also in general)
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  587. # [18:21] <zcorpan> Hixie_: thank you :-)
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  589. # [18:24] <Hixie_> i wonder why </template> gives a parse error
  590. # [18:24] <Hixie_> it shouldn't, right...?
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  592. # [18:24] <Hixie_> i should test this with my parser, see what i get there...
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  595. # [18:31] <Hixie_> any IE users able to test http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=3099 for me?
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  597. # [18:32] <Domenic> IE11 latest updates [object Event] (same task)
  598. # [18:32] <Domenic> [object PageTransitionEvent] (same task)
  599. # [18:32] <Hixie_> cool, thanks
  600. # [18:32] <annevk> Hixie_: I removed the spec splitter from html5.org btw
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  602. # [18:33] <Hixie_> annevk: cool
  603. # [18:33] <Hixie_> spec splitting now happens inline with the spec generation
  604. # [18:33] <Hixie_> dunno if anyone's noticed, but that means the split version doesn't lag behind anymore
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  606. # [18:36] <Hixie_> oh, same task / same task implies IE11 is buggy in its media element handling
  607. # [18:36] <Hixie_> great
  608. # [18:36] <Hixie_> ok
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  610. # [18:42] <Hixie_> can anyone figure out why <!DOCTYPE HTML><template><li></template> has a parse error?
  611. # [18:44] <caitp-> is that question going to be on the exam?
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  613. # [18:44] <Hixie_> yes
  614. # [18:45] <Hixie_> woah
  615. # [18:45] <Hixie_> it's a bug in my parser
  616. # [18:45] <Hixie_> but that implies two browsers have had the same exact bug
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  618. # [18:48] <caitp-> a bug in the extremely complicated html parser doesn't seem unthinkable to me
  619. # [18:48] <Hixie_> this bug was trivial
  620. # [18:48] <Hixie_> i just hadn't included all the elements in the "generate all implied end tags thoroughly" logic
  621. # [18:48] <Hixie_> but i wonder why
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  625. # [18:52] <cwilso> Hixie: just filed Web Audio issue on that HTML bug, feel free to close the HTML one.
  626. # [18:56] <Hixie_> coolio, thanks
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  672. # [20:08] <Hixie_> annevk: any idea how i should phrase http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content.html#concept-media-load-algorithm step 9:otherwise:1's "as nodes are inserted and removed" steps?
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  681. # [20:46] <dmurph> annevk: I'm looking at the "clone" discussion in the fetch spec here: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/372#issuecomment-52751957 Is the design is close enough to settled to start specing and implementing?
  682. # [20:47] <slightlyoff> Yes.
  683. # [20:50] <dmurph> cool, thx
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  688. # [21:12] <Hixie_> Domenic: i don't understand why an uncaught rejection should be a big deal
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  690. # [21:13] <Hixie_> Domenic: if you don't want to catch it, then it should surely just be ignored, just like if you don't hook the onerror handler on an <img> element.
  691. # [21:15] <ehsan> JakeA: ping
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  693. # [21:16] <Domenic> Hixie_: onerror provides a global hook for sync errors, so you don't need a try { ... } catch (e) { ... } around every code entry point. We want the same for async errors.
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  696. # [21:20] <zenparsing> Hixie_ promise rejections can also arise out of standard programming bugs, like identifier misspellings and such
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  698. # [21:22] <Hixie_> zenparsing: that's a bug in the design of promises, though.
  699. # [21:22] <caitp-> it is, but it isn't super likely to change
  700. # [21:22] <zenparsing> Hixie_ heh, you're not going to win that one : )
  701. # [21:22] <Hixie_> yeah. so now that bug is turning into me having to do work to work around the bad design i already complained about.
  702. # [21:22] <Hixie_> sigh.
  703. # [21:23] <Hixie_> it's <picture> all over again
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  705. # [21:26] <caitp-> :[
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  709. # [21:40] <JakeA> ehsan: hey, I'm cramming for my jsconf talk right now, then sleep. I'll organise a call to go over the API generality stuff
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  711. # [21:40] <ehsan> JakeA: sounds good, I commented on the issue fwiw, nothing urgent
  712. # [21:41] <JakeA> ehsan: will reply
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  714. # [21:41] <ehsan> ta
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  733. # [22:22] <annevk> dmurph: yeah, everything apart from the clone() method is defined now
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  735. # [22:23] <annevk> dmurph: I expect to define clone() as creating a copy of everything and a tee of the stream (not sure what that means yet, waiting for the streams primitive to be better defined for that)
  736. # [22:23] <annevk> dmurph: ought to mean about the same as the request cloning that's already going on in UAs today
  737. # [22:25] <annevk> Hixie_: the insertion and removing steps should give enough context to update the pointer
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  745. # [22:30] <zenparsing> Hixie_ the problem is we have no usable definition of an "asynchronous program error" wrt promises (b/c a rejection could always be handled "later") - but i'm going to try anyway...
  746. # [22:30] <zenparsing> define a "user entry point" to be any function call where the host (HTML) is calling into user code
  747. # [22:30] <zenparsing> an "asynchronous program error" occurs when a user entry point returns a promise which rejects
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  749. # [22:30] <zenparsing> so this triggers window.onerror: elem.onclick = evt => Promise.reject(new Error("asdf"))
  750. # [22:31] <zenparsing> so does this: elem.onclick = async evt => window.loction = await somethingAsync();
  751. # [22:31] <zenparsing> (note async and the spelling error)
  752. # [22:32] <zenparsing> ...probably doesn't work, but an interesting idea anyway
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  754. # [22:33] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: What Twitter client do you use? Almost none of your replies are actually linked to the tweet you're replying to.
  755. # [22:33] * TabAtkins just happens to be looking at your Twitter page today.
  756. # [22:34] <TabAtkins> Oh, never mind, those were just all the "fake replies" from several years ago. Whatever you were doing then was weird. Your replies work correctly now.
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  762. # [22:47] <annevk> I think back then Twitter did not have threading
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  776. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> That sounds crazy.
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  828. # [23:42] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: just the web site
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  845. # [23:46] <Hixie_> xhr with promises: would it be something like xhr.send(); xhr.ready.then(...); ?
  846. # [23:47] <Hixie_> or .loaded.then() ?
  847. # [23:48] <TabAtkins> .loaded, I guess?
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  851. # [23:52] <TabAtkins> It turns out that running a single regex per line instead of 20, when processing a large file, actually saves a signfiicant amount of time.
  852. # [23:52] <Hixie_> that depends on the regexps in question
  853. # [23:53] <TabAtkins> This is a simple regex, I was just constructing them fresh every time.
  854. # [23:53] <TabAtkins> Basically I shaved a second off of Bikeshed running time.
  855. # [23:53] <TabAtkins> Because I finally put together some profiling.
  856. # [23:53] <Hixie_> ah, well, sure
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  858. # Session Close: Sat Sep 13 00:00:00 2014

The end :)