/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-09-18 / end

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  42. # [01:49] <roc> has anyone had a chat with L2L?
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  51. # [02:03] <jamesr_> tab replied at length to a few of L2L's threads
  52. # [02:03] <jamesr_> but the replies were just more spew of the same form
  53. # [02:03] <jamesr_> i plan to just ignore their emails
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  69. # [02:33] <jamesr_> roc: if you can figure out what he's asking (or is he asking something) please let me know, i am curious
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  100. # [04:00] <MikeSmith> who's L2L?
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  110. # [04:37] <roc> someone sending a lot of incoherent messages to standards groups
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  112. # [04:39] <caitp> i never claimed to be a good communicator
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  114. # [04:41] <roc> nice try
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  226. # [10:08] <zcorpan> tantek: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/css/20140908#l-479
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  229. # [10:11] <annevk> hsivonen: btw, mobile Safari does exactly what we talked about the other show, show only the EV name and not the domain
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  232. # [10:15] <zcorpan> Hixie: removing n.whatwg.org seems like it would solve that problem
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  234. # [10:16] <annevk> zcorpan: what problem? I think n.whatwg.org is already solved
  235. # [10:17] <zcorpan> annevk: that people will use https in their xmlns
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  238. # [10:22] <zcorpan> https://www.google.com/search?q=n+whatwg+work - google adds " - WhatWG" to the titles
  239. # [10:23] <annevk> Somewhat ironic that https://hstspreload.appspot.com/ doesn't use HSTS
  240. # [10:24] <annevk> zcorpan: I wonder where it gets that from
  241. # [10:25] <karlcow> I wonder if zcorpan was searching for https://www.google.co.jp/search?as_epq=n.whatwg.org
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  243. # [10:25] <zcorpan> karlcow: no
  244. # [10:26] <karlcow> oh understood
  245. # [10:27] <karlcow> I wonder where they get that from
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  255. # [10:41] <annevk> Bah, wget doesn't do certificate checks correctly
  256. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> I always turn off the wget certificate-checking option
  257. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> I think it's on by default and it mostly just gets in the way
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  259. # [10:43] <annevk> Might be that DreamHost has an ancient version of wget? https://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/index.php?20421
  260. # [10:43] * MikeSmith reads
  261. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> yeah the current version of wget in debian stable is 1.13.4
  262. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> but then debian also sometimes patches upstream stuff in ways that actually break things
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  265. # [10:51] <karlcow> That would be fun to test all the command line clients: httpie, curl, etc.
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  267. # [10:55] <darobin> my experience with cert checking in command line stuff is that it is very often wrong
  268. # [10:55] <darobin> (including PhantomJS)
  269. # [10:56] <darobin> that said, I wouldn't be shocked if it were because they were all doing it somewhat strictly by default and browsers are laxer for compat
  270. # [10:56] <jgraham> Writing in JS not magically leading to implementation quality shocker?
  271. # [11:02] <MikeSmith> since even the browsers don't behave interoperably with cert checking I guess it's not surprising that command-line tools behave the way they do here
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  280. # [11:15] <darobin> jgraham: not sure what you meant? Phantom isn't written in JS :)
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  294. # [12:10] <annevk> DreamHost has 1.12 per wget --version
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  336. # [14:01] <smaug____> hayato: how should older shadow trees work in case they are not in the composed document, but the host is
  337. # [14:01] <smaug____> hayato: so, the newer shadow tree doesn't have <shadow>
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  344. # [14:17] <smaug____> hayato: filed couple of bugs related to that
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  346. # [14:23] <MikeSmith> annevk: It'd seem like 1.12 should have that bug fix from 2007. unless it's one of those cases where the Debian packager unfixed/regressed it
  347. # [14:25] <annevk> MikeSmith: hmm yeah
  348. # [14:25] <annevk> Mac OS X doesn't ship with wget, and I don't really care I guess
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  361. # [15:22] <mathiasbynens> zcorpan: woah, nice work on those <picture> tests!
  362. # [15:23] <zcorpan> mathiasbynens: thx
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  364. # [15:23] <zcorpan> mathiasbynens: wanna review? :-)
  365. # [15:24] <mathiasbynens> just went over them
  366. # [15:24] <mathiasbynens> all i could find was a small nitpick
  367. # [15:24] <zcorpan> ah ok. thanks!
  368. # [15:24] <mathiasbynens> (posted as note_
  369. # [15:24] <mathiasbynens> )
  370. # [15:26] <jgraham> mathiasbynens++
  371. # [15:26] <jgraham> Also zcorpan++ but that's implied
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  375. # [15:32] <zcorpan> gotta do something useful at a csswg f2f
  376. # [15:32] <jgraham> mathiasbynens: If you reviewed the tests you should mark them as reviewed
  377. # [15:36] <jgraham> mathiasbynens: (and now I changed the review so that you can ;)
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  379. # [15:39] <mathiasbynens> jgraham: ty
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  381. # [15:43] <jgraham> mathiasbynens: It looks like you pressed "I will review this" (which isn't necessary) but didn't mark anything as reviewed yet. Intentional?
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  385. # [15:44] <zcorpan> mathiasbynens: click "everything" in https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/showcommit?first=9a149860&last=87823b51&review=2529
  386. # [15:46] <mathiasbynens> jgraham: nah, just a critic n00b
  387. # [15:46] <jgraham> mathiasbynens: OK, np, welcome to the learning curve ;)
  388. # [15:46] <mathiasbynens> zcorpan: thanks
  389. # [15:47] <jgraham> For future reference "I will review this" basically just means "don't let anyone else mark this as reviewed". To actually mark something as reviewed you a) have to be a reviewed for that path and b) click the checkbox next to the file that you have reviewed
  390. # [15:47] <jgraham> (and then submit like for comments)
  391. # [15:48] <foolip> jgraham: zcorpan says that testharness.js has a "Not run" result. how does one use that and when is it appropriate?
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  396. # [15:48] <jgraham> foolip: You don't use it. You get it if a test has been declared using async_test() but no .step() has been called when the overall test times out
  397. # [15:49] <jgraham> If a .step() has been called you get Timeout
  398. # [15:49] <jgraham> (I hope :)
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  400. # [15:49] <foolip> ok, doesn't sound like the right tool for the job then :)
  401. # [15:49] <foolip> thanks jgraham!
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  403. # [15:50] <jgraham> foolip: What are you trying to achieve?
  404. # [15:51] <foolip> jgraham: I'm trying to test for a media element GC bug and it's unavoidably racy, and it would be nice to distinguish between "passed" and "couldn't really test"
  405. # [15:51] <foolip> jgraham: https://codereview.chromium.org/552303006/diff2/150001:170001/LayoutTests/media/gc-while-seeking.html
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  410. # [15:54] <jgraham> foolip: Oh interesting. I guess we could make done() take a human-readable message or introduce a new status, or something, but I'm not sure what has the right cost/effort tradeoff
  411. # [15:55] <foolip> jgraham: I wouldn't suggest that either
  412. # [15:56] <foolip> Obviously the risk with a test like this is that it ends up always taking the shortcut t.done(), but I don't see a way to change that. A unit test at a lower level seems like the best answer so far.
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  416. # [15:59] <jgraham> foolip: Yeah, I tend to agree
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  421. # [16:05] <MikeSmith> is there anybody good and active in the CSS WG who speaks Mandarin?
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  427. # [16:20] <roc> what's the problem?
  428. # [16:21] <roc> I don't speak Mandarin, but my wife does, which is sometimes useful...
  429. # [16:24] <MikeSmith> roc: possible speaking opportunity in Beijing
  430. # [16:28] <roc> haha ok no
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  432. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> roc: too late you already volunteered :)
  433. # [16:32] <boogyman> haha
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  437. # [16:59] <jgraham> hsivonen: Did you get the chance to update those fragment tests?
  438. # [16:59] <jgraham> (for the review comment[s])
  439. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> does anybody here use Symphony CMS?
  440. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> asking for a friend
  441. # [17:01] * Quits: ambv (~ambv@206.108.217.134) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  442. # [17:02] <MikeSmith> nm
  443. # [17:02] * Joins: ambv_ (~ambv@206.108.217.134)
  444. # [17:02] <MikeSmith> was confused with symfony
  445. # [17:06] <darobin> lol
  446. # [17:08] <MikeSmith> darobin: I'm hurt my your pointing and laughing at my ignorance
  447. # [17:09] <MikeSmith> I've tarnished my reputation as a PHP expert
  448. # [17:10] <darobin> MikeSmith: if it's any consolation I have now tarnished my reputation by demonstrating some degree of PHP expertise :)
  449. # [17:11] <MikeSmith> haha you took the bait
  450. # [17:11] <MikeSmith> my next trick question is about Wordpress
  451. # [17:11] <MikeSmith> be ready
  452. # [17:11] <darobin> I'm glad most of the related explanation took place on a secret team channel
  453. # [17:11] <darobin> who said transparency was a good thing?
  454. # [17:12] <darobin> luckily, I actually know pretty much fuck-all about Wordpress :)
  455. # [17:13] * MikeSmith scrambles to change the name of the secret team-only php channel
  456. # [17:14] <Hixie> christ, dreamhost support is moronic these days
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  458. # [17:16] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I don't understand why you guys don't switch to virtual hosting
  459. # [17:17] <boogyman> Hixie: try their twitter handle. phone is non-existent, and email always seems to take days.
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  461. # [17:18] <Hixie> MikeSmith: how do you mean? who would you recommend? we're on virtual hosting at dreamhost
  462. # [17:19] <Hixie> boogyman: the speed is not the issue
  463. # [17:19] <Hixie> boogyman: they just seem to only respond in platitudes
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  465. # [17:19] <Hixie> brb
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  470. # [17:22] <jgraham> Hixie: I thought you were on a shared host not a VPS? Or did that change?
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  473. # [17:27] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah, I meant what jgraham said -- a separate virtual machine that you have root access to and control, not shared hosting
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  477. # [17:28] <annevk> MikeSmith: but then, maintenance
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  481. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> annevk: I think it'd be less maintenance in the long run
  482. # [17:31] <jgraham> Yeah, my experience is that VPS is a huge win over shared hosting
  483. # [17:31] <jgraham> I mean unless you want to run email or something
  484. # [17:31] <jgraham> But for websites
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  487. # [17:33] <mounir> annevk: I'm looking at your comments at https://github.com/w3c/screen-orientation/issues/72
  488. # [17:33] <mounir> annevk: I wonder what you mean by "They do not queue tasks to synchronize but rather just dispatch events"
  489. # [17:34] <mounir> annevk: do you want me to queue a task before resolving the promise and before fire the events?
  490. # [17:34] <annevk> mounir: firing events needs to happen from a task
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  493. # [17:34] <annevk> MikeSmith: hmm yeah perhaps
  494. # [17:35] <mounir> annevk: ideally, 4.4 would run on the animation task source you want to add
  495. # [17:35] <annevk> MikeSmith: I've never run my own server software, I could give it a shot I suppose... Recommendations?
  496. # [17:35] <mounir> annevk: but it's not defined yet
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  501. # [17:37] <annevk> mounir: then you need to add some kind of issue marker
  502. # [17:37] <annevk> mounir: pretending everything is okay seems bad
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  505. # [17:37] <annevk> MikeSmith: also, recommendations for a hosting provider?
  506. # [17:38] <annevk> MikeSmith: I was considering to give https://www.transip.eu/vps/ a try as I have domains registered there
  507. # [17:38] <mounir> annevk: issue #40 is there for that
  508. # [17:39] <annevk> mounir: in the spec
  509. # [17:40] <MikeSmith> jgraham: my experience is that even running a mail server is not a lot of work -- for the MTA just use exim and everything pretty just works. For POP/IMAP, pretty much all the options suck, just in different ways, but it's more just annoyances than it is about being a lot of maintenance work
  510. # [17:40] <annevk> MikeSmith: what about spam?
  511. # [17:41] <MikeSmith> annevk: I think http://www.bytemark.co.uk is good
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  513. # [17:42] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah spam is another "all options suck" case. You just choose one and live with it
  514. # [17:42] <MikeSmith> but I guess jgraham is right you're better off not trying to run a mail server if you can avoid it
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  516. # [17:45] <mounir> annevk: I could have a look and see if respec has a way to have issue markers that disappear for publication documents
  517. # [17:45] <mounir> annevk: it's less of a trouble for living document obviously
  518. # [17:45] <jgraham> annevk: As I said I have used Linode, and I have heard people say that Digital Ocean is OK. Gandi also have something.
  519. # [17:47] <Hixie> MikeSmith: oh we've been on a virtual host for years
  520. # [17:48] <Hixie> MikeSmith: virtual hosts are still shared, that's why they're virtual :-)
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  522. # [17:48] <MikeSmith> hair splitter
  523. # [17:48] <Hixie> it's not that fine a hair to split
  524. # [17:48] <annevk> Hixie: but it's not like you're running our own Apache server installation
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  526. # [17:48] <Hixie> i've had to have them move me to a different underlying host a couple of times because of the other people on the hardware
  527. # [17:49] <MikeSmith> forgive me for not being precise I meant what jgraham described
  528. # [17:49] <Hixie> which is the main problem with shared hosting
  529. # [17:49] <Hixie> annevk: sure, it's managed
  530. # [17:49] <Hixie> annevk: you can have dedicated servers that are managed too
  531. # [17:49] <Hixie> annevk: managed vs virtual are entirely orthogonal
  532. # [17:50] <annevk> Hixie: yeah so I guess what people suggest here is to go unmanaged
  533. # [17:50] <annevk> Hixie: I suspect VPS became somewhat synonymous with that
  534. # [17:50] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I'm not sure your taxonomy there actually aligns with how the terms are typically used
  535. # [17:50] <jgraham> Hixie: In theory, perhaps. I think a one dimensional view would capture most of the available options
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  538. # [17:51] <Hixie> i'm definitely not going unmanaged
  539. # [17:51] <Hixie> MikeSmith: quite possible. i'm just using the english terms, i don't know if there's terms of art here.
  540. # [17:52] <Hixie> jgraham: well you can always collapse the options, sure
  541. # [17:52] <Hixie> jgraham: managed shared, managed virtual, unmanaged virtual, managed dedicated, unmanaged dedicated
  542. # [17:52] <Asterfield> So I'm sure that this idea has been proposed before, but I'm curious to know what your thoughts on this are. I've been learning the Drag and Drop API over the last few days, and my introductory experience has been baffling and weird.
  543. # [17:52] * Joins: tommyliu (~tommyliu@121.15.84.192)
  544. # [17:53] <Hixie> Asterfield: the API itself is something we inherited from IE4 which inherited it from Microsoft's COM+
  545. # [17:53] <Hixie> Asterfield: the attributes (dropzone and draggable) are attempts to mask the crazy a little
  546. # [17:53] <Hixie> Asterfield: but yeah, the end result isn't ideal
  547. # [17:53] <Asterfield> That doesn't mean it can't/shouldn't be improved :) Would it make sense to have the event ordering for d-n-d to behave more like the :hover state? http://imgur.com/a/tYpW3
  548. # [17:54] <Hixie> we can't change it, it's widely shipped and pages depend on it
  549. # [17:54] <Hixie> we can add features, but we can't change things that are shipped
  550. # [17:54] <Asterfield> :| that is unfortunate. Curses, microsoft
  551. # [17:55] <Asterfield> Okay, let's say a new set of events then. I know that would bring the count to 9, but the old ones could be depricated if it works, no?
  552. # [17:55] <Asterfield> dragin and dragout :P
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  555. # [17:56] <Hixie> we could make new events entirely, but then we'd have to convince the browser vendors to implement a second redundant drag and drop event processing model, instead of doing whatever it is they are doing now
  556. # [17:56] <Asterfield> Are there any serious problems with that?
  557. # [17:56] <Hixie> so.... what do you think it is they are doing that's less important? :-)
  558. # [17:57] <MikeSmith> annevk: Hixie: anyway http://www.bigv.io is specifically what I was recommending, as far as providers. Among other reasons, they're relatively small and getting support from them amounts to talking one of maybe three people who've actually run/maintain their server hardware/software and have for years and are extremely capable and very responsive
  559. # [17:58] <Asterfield> Hixie: open source, anyone (*cough* me *cough*) could add these changes if they have the time
  560. # [17:58] <Asterfield> It doesn't necessarily have to come at the expense of a current project
  561. # [17:59] <Asterfield> The issue would be getting the vendors to agree to the idea in theory, no?
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  563. # [17:59] <Hixie> Asterfield: not all the browsers are open source, and even the open source ones, you'd be taking engineers away from whatever they're doing to orient the new engineer, review their patches, fix security bugs going forward, etc
  564. # [18:00] <Asterfield> Hixie: That's true. Are you saying that this idea should not be attempted, and that the current IE4 model is good as-is?
  565. # [18:00] <Hixie> Asterfield: in practice, unless you're personally volunteering to implement it in Safari, Chrome, and Firefox, it would end up taking away from another feature
  566. # [18:00] <Hixie> Asterfield: i'm saying that without vendor buy-in, it's pointless. If the vendors can be convinced that it's worth it, then I'd be happy to spec it or work with someone to spec it
  567. # [18:00] * Quits: cbr_ (~cbr@145.36.150.83.chzhher77.rootnet.ch) (Quit: cbr_)
  568. # [18:01] <Asterfield> Hixie: So where does vendor buy in come from? Do I google around for the emails of all the important Mozilla people? :P
  569. # [18:01] <Asterfield> Make a petition perhaps?
  570. # [18:02] <Hixie> i've been at this for about 15 years and i've still no idea how to convince people :-(
  571. # [18:02] <Asterfield> :P Aha, awesome. Do you know where I might be able to start?
  572. # [18:02] <Hixie> generally, posting in the project mailing lists is a good place to start
  573. # [18:02] <Hixie> but you have to be careful
  574. # [18:03] <Hixie> most people who do that manage to flip their bozo bit really early
  575. # [18:03] <Asterfield> How would you recommend avoiding this flipping of the bozo bit?
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  577. # [18:06] <Asterfield> Or at least explain what constitutes flipping the bozo bit :P
  578. # [18:06] <Hixie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bozo_bit :-)
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  581. # [18:07] <Hixie> a lot of people come in with all these high-minded ideas and little patience for the existing engineers' opinions
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  584. # [18:08] <Asterfield> Hixie: Hm. I shall be careful then. Thanks for your help, Hixie :)
  585. # [18:08] <mounir> annevk: http://www.w3.org/TR/page-visibility/#now-visible-algorithm < would that be find to hook at the end of that?
  586. # [18:08] <Hixie> Asterfield: good luck
  587. # [18:08] <mounir> annevk: or would that still be monkey patching to you?
  588. # [18:08] <caitp> people who you consider to have their bozo bit set, are people who consider you to have your bozo bit set
  589. # [18:08] <caitp> it's not really a one-sided thing
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  592. # [18:10] <Asterfield> Oh, while I'm at it. Do event models fall under the DOM spec?
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  594. # [18:11] <Asterfield> It seems they do
  595. # [18:12] <Hixie> caitp: that is often not the case
  596. # [18:13] <Hixie> caitp: there's plenty of times where someone will keep trying to convince someone of something long after that other person has stopped listening
  597. # [18:13] <Hixie> Asterfield: "event models"?
  598. # [18:13] <Hixie> Asterfield: they belong in the spec of whatever they're modeling
  599. # [18:13] <caitp> I think you'll find that people will tend to ignore your opinion if they believe you've thoroughly missed the point regarding something, or just fundamentally disagree with your perspective. the reason they'll keep yammering at you after you've stopped listening, is because they consider you to be in a position of authority or influence
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  601. # [18:14] <caitp> it's just basic human dynamics, they might think they need to convince you even they think you are wrong
  602. # [18:14] <caitp> or especially if
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  610. # [18:20] <caitp> it's like the intent-to-remove showModalDialog thread, even though people have very good reasons for wanting to get rid of it, you'll still see people trying to convince people with influence not to remove it, because to them, the reasons for removing it are not worthwhile --- thy aren't stupid just because they don't align their opinions with the opinions of implementors and maintainers, they just put importance on d
  611. # [18:20] <caitp> ifferent things which are more pertinent to their own needs
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  616. # [18:30] <Hixie> caitp: yes, it absolutely is because they want to convince you. That's my point. Asterfield has to be careful not to have the people he wants to convince flip the bozo bit on him. I don't think in that context it's usual for the bozo bit flipping to be symmetric.
  617. # [18:30] <annevk> mounir: yes, because it is not apparent from the algorithm it can be extended
  618. # [18:31] <annevk> mounir: it's already better than what you have now, but you need to get page visibility updated
  619. # [18:31] <annevk> mounir: it seems it might need to be updated anyway to also make use of the animation frame task...
  620. # [18:32] <mounir> hmm page visibility would be updated at that point, right?
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  622. # [18:33] <caitp> that's not what I'm saying --- on both sides, you're ignoring the other sides input. I mean yeah, they aren't "totally" ignoring the other sides input, since they allow people to use showModalDialog for another year with special flags, but they're basically still stuck behind "this is a really bad API, a really bad user experience, and it's just generally bad --- users don't seem to agree that it's a really bad API, a
  623. # [18:33] <caitp> nd users aren't going to care how complicated it is, so obviously they're going to ignore that opinion and believe that it's boneheaded to remove it
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  625. # [18:33] <caitp> like, there's no real way around it, they're going to feel like their needs are being ignored, and developers are going to worry about maintainability more than meeting their needs, which they deem to be invalid
  626. # [18:33] <caitp> so both sides are essentially getting it wrong, despite care
  627. # [18:34] <caitp> it's just the way people are
  628. # [18:34] <caitp> but I dunno why I'm talking about it, it's just one of those fascinating things
  629. # [18:34] * caitp moves on to other endeavours
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  635. # [18:38] <annevk> mounir: I guess, but this is the W3C, you never know
  636. # [18:39] <annevk> mounir: took them almost a decade to start updating HTML again, or DOM
  637. # [18:39] <mounir> annevk: instead of trolling, wanna have a look at that PR? :)
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  640. # [18:42] <Hixie> caitp: flipping the bozo bit means more than just talking at instead of talking with. It means essentially killfiling.
  641. # [18:42] <annevk> mounir: hey you started with "I'm not sure we can change that now we're going to LC" :p
  642. # [18:42] <annevk> done btw, back later
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  669. # [19:32] <Hixie> MikeSmith: ping https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26195
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  676. # [19:39] <annevk> MikeSmith: thanks
  677. # [19:39] <annevk> jgraham: sorry for not remembering
  678. # [19:40] <annevk> jgraham: Linode looks pretty good
  679. # [19:47] <TabAtkins_> roc: L2L is a crazy person and went in my killfile pretty quickly. We should ban him from the w3 lists.
  680. # [19:52] <TabAtkins_> What's a polite way to say "the entire preceding paragraph is nonsense"?
  681. # [19:52] * TabAtkins_ is now known as TabAtkins
  682. # [19:55] <TabAtkins> Okay, going with "None of what you just said is true".
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  684. # [19:55] <TabAtkins> Can't come up with anything better.
  685. # [19:55] <TabAtkins> And don't really have any respect for the person I'm talking to, just trying to avoid looking overtly hostile to the rest of the list.
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  689. # [20:03] <caitp> still sounds a bit hostile
  690. # [20:04] <TabAtkins> Sure, it definitely is, but this guy knows he's spewing nonsense, and he always does it. I don't like that sort of shit looking official and correct when it's complete fantasy.
  691. # [20:04] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-44-207.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  692. # [20:05] <caitp> I'm not telling you what to do :p but maybe clearly and politely showing why it's nonsense might be more effective and also time consuming
  693. # [20:06] <TabAtkins> The rest of my email outside that sentence was fine.
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  695. # [20:13] <annevk> So I just found out via @antimattur that there's a thread going on in public-html about "after 5"... Seems to be mostly about modularizing, which seems weird, since they still don't really write any of the text.
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  697. # [20:15] <annevk> Who volunteered again for console.og?
  698. # [20:15] <annevk> console.log even. That someone should read https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26182
  699. # [20:15] <annevk> Domenic: ^
  700. # [20:16] <Domenic> terinjokes did, haven't heard any updates recently
  701. # [20:16] <terinjokes> Domenic: i filed a bug https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=415645
  702. # [20:17] <Domenic> paul_irish ^
  703. # [20:17] <terinjokes> i already messaged him
  704. # [20:17] <terinjokes> :)
  705. # [20:17] <Domenic> terinjokes we were talking about console spec
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  707. # [20:17] <terinjokes> ah
  708. # [20:17] <terinjokes> i created a github repo, but haven't actually pushed anything I've done up yet
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  710. # [20:20] <TabAtkins> terinjokes: Get it up! Develop in the open. ^_^
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  713. # [20:21] <terinjokes> two seconds
  714. # [20:21] <terinjokes> :)
  715. # [20:24] <terinjokes> https://github.com/terinjokes/console-spec/blob/master/index.bs
  716. # [20:24] <terinjokes> just a basic outline so far :'(
  717. # [20:25] <terinjokes> TabAtkins: i couldn't get links in the IDL working with <dfn>s that weren't part of a <dd>, not sure what I'm missing
  718. # [20:26] <TabAtkins> terinjokes: The one <dfn> I see has a capitalization error - you need to say for="Console".
  719. # [20:26] <terinjokes> oh, i didn't know it was case sensative
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  721. # [20:26] <TabAtkins> (Bikeshed's handling of capitalization is still kinda fucked up; I need to spend time making it sane. The code I wrote there predates IDL definitions, where capitalization matters.)
  722. # [20:26] <terinjokes> yep, that did it
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  724. # [20:27] <TabAtkins> terinjokes: Assume it's only sensitive for IDL things (after all, `var x = console;` and `var x = Console;` are two very different statements).
  725. # [20:27] <TabAtkins> terinjokes: Even if my capitalization handling is messed up for now, it'll be fixed later, so might as well write it correctly.
  726. # [20:27] <terinjokes> noted
  727. # [20:27] <TabAtkins> (Other things will remain case-insensitive, so you can, for example, capitalize a term that appears as the first word of a sentence and still have it link up.)
  728. # [20:28] <TabAtkins> terinjokes: That said, I think the interface really is spelled "console". ^_^
  729. # [20:28] <terinjokes> also should probably create a real logo… i'm sure that kitten, while cute, has a copyright
  730. # [20:28] <TabAtkins> hahahahaha
  731. # [20:28] <TabAtkins> I didn't even see that.
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  733. # [20:29] <terinjokes> so in this case there's a one-to-one interface name to what the variable exposed is called?
  734. # [20:29] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's how WebIDL works.
  735. # [20:30] <Domenic> Unsure
  736. # [20:30] <Domenic> Is console an instance of Console
  737. # [20:30] <TabAtkins> Console doesn't exist.
  738. # [20:30] <Domenic> or is console a single interface with lots of static methods
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  740. # [20:30] <terinjokes> Domenic: sounds like an openable issue
  741. # [20:30] <TabAtkins> So etiher it's a [NoInterfaceObject], and you're doing something complicated, or it's just spelled "console".
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  743. # [20:31] <Domenic> I think in browsers it is an instance of a Console
  744. # [20:31] <TabAtkins> Whoops, you're right.
  745. # [20:31] <terinjokes> yes, there's a Console constructor
  746. # [20:31] <TabAtkins> Console is the interface name.
  747. # [20:31] <TabAtkins> terinjokes: What browser?
  748. # [20:31] <TabAtkins> Chrome doesn't expose Console on the window.
  749. # [20:32] <Domenic> If we can convince people to use static methods then you get the benefit of them being "bound" (so you can do .forEach(console.log)
  750. # [20:32] <terinjokes> console.constructor exists and is labeled "Console"
  751. # [20:32] <Domenic> but no browser implements that sooooo
  752. # [20:32] <terinjokes> but not callable
  753. # [20:32] <terinjokes> well, callable, but throws
  754. # [20:32] <TabAtkins> terinjokes: Ah, right.
  755. # [20:33] <TabAtkins> terinjokes: So, what you wanna do is name the interface "Console", but put "[NoInterfaceObject]" on the line before it.
  756. # [20:33] <TabAtkins> That means it doesn't show up as a property on window.
  757. # [20:33] <Domenic> You'll also need some kind of patch onto window to expose .console. I think partial interfaces is how that is done?
  758. # [20:33] <TabAtkins> Yup,
  759. # [20:33] <Domenic> Also I think workers too these days
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  761. # [20:34] <TabAtkins> partial interface Window { attribute Console console; }
  762. # [20:34] <Domenic> DID YOU KNOW? window.console can be overwritten (in Firefox at least)
  763. # [20:34] <TabAtkins> And the same on WorkerGlobalScope.
  764. # [20:35] <TabAtkins> Domenic: Makes sense.
  765. # [20:35] <TabAtkins> Most things can?
  766. # [20:35] <Domenic> Really? My experience is WebIDL people love their `readonly`
  767. # [20:35] <terinjokes> and ditto in Chrome
  768. # [20:35] <Domenic> actually attribute Console console isn't quite right in that case, since I can do `window.console = "foo"` and it works with no type-checking errors
  769. # [20:35] <terinjokes> Domenic: i have a whole project that works by overriding lots of window and DOM things
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  772. # [20:36] <TabAtkins> Domenic: Hmmmmmmmm
  773. # [20:36] <terinjokes> Domenic: you can do it, but should you be able to?
  774. # [20:37] <TabAtkins> terinjokes: Best to document what browsers currently do (when they agree), and then have issues in the spec for things you think we might want to change.
  775. # [20:37] <Domenic> WORSE! In Chrome it's a data property; in Firefox it's a getter/setter
  776. # [20:37] <Domenic> And the tiebreaker is... IE11 says data property!
  777. # [20:37] <Domenic> Now we're really in trouble
  778. # [20:37] <TabAtkins> Domenic: We love our data properties in Chrome.
  779. # [20:38] <Domenic> TabAtkins: oh right, I forgot about that
  780. # [20:38] <smaug____> hmm
  781. # [20:38] <smaug____> how would one even then explain window.console in webidl
  782. # [20:38] <TabAtkins> Dunno if we ever made the great "put our data properties on the prototype as getters/setters, like WebIDL requires" migration or not.
  783. # [20:39] <TabAtkins> smaug____: as "any", with prose defining its initial value?
  784. # [20:39] <Domenic> TabAtkins: I believe another heroic attempt is being made, or at least was a week or so ago.
  785. # [20:39] <smaug____> TabAtkins: why would 'any' affect anything here
  786. # [20:39] <Domenic> smaug____: if it's a data property, you're screwed, WebIDL can't do it
  787. # [20:40] <smaug____> yeah, I was talking about being data property
  788. # [20:40] <TabAtkins> smaug____: Oh, sorry, thought you were talking about the "can override with whatever I want" part.
  789. # [20:40] * smaug____ certainly doesn't want to make a special case here
  790. # [20:40] <TabAtkins> Yeah, no, just define it as normal in WebIDL, and let browsers fix themselves. Firefox is already fine.
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  793. # [20:43] <terinjokes> TabAtkins: bikeshed doesn't seem to like "any" attributes
  794. # [20:43] <TabAtkins> terinjokes: Interesting! It's possible that that's not even allowed.
  795. # [20:44] <terinjokes> you can see from the last push
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  801. # [20:48] <terinjokes> TabAtkins: i don't think it is allowed
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  803. # [20:50] <TabAtkins> terinjokes: I mean that it might not be allowed in the WebIDL grammar.
  804. # [20:50] <terinjokes> yes
  805. # [20:51] <TabAtkins> (Bikeshed's webidl parser is built directly from the grammar in the spec.)
  806. # [20:51] <TabAtkins> Ah, okay.
  807. # [20:51] <terinjokes> can any's contain nullable sequence types?
  808. # [20:51] <TabAtkins> any is any.
  809. # [20:51] <TabAtkins> I guess mark "console" as type "Console" for now, with an issue tracking its mutability.
  810. # [20:52] <terinjokes> cool
  811. # [20:52] <terinjokes> will get to that tonight
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  836. # [21:46] <TabAtkins> "URL modifiers" isn't already a claimed term for some part of a url, is it?
  837. # [21:49] <TabAtkins> annevk: Ugh, I forgot everything I talked to you about a few months ago regarding computed values of URL. :(
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  847. # [22:10] <Domenic> wat is this http://www.w3.org/Submission/2014/SUBM-first-screen-paint-20140811/
  848. # [22:10] <Hixie> a blog post, essentially
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  880. # [23:03] <caitp> pdr / basically anybody who can make sense of svg 1.1, is https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=109212 a valid issue, or is firefox doing the wrong thing?
  881. # [23:03] <caitp> it's pretty non-obvious from reading the spec
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  885. # [23:11] <pdr> caitp, I think it's valid from the spec's perspective. I am not sure if it will ever be implemented properly though
  886. # [23:12] <caitp> I see, thanks
  887. # [23:15] <pdr> caitp, do you have a usecase in mind? Bundling the resource in the svg document itself seems like it would be a better user experience in almost every case, but I may be missing something.
  888. # [23:16] <caitp> it's this weird thing where if you have a <base> tag in the document, FuncIRI stuff seems to get resolved totally wrong
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  890. # [23:17] <caitp> so for instance, clip-path="url(#someId)" results in no clip path
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  893. # [23:18] <caitp> or rather, they work on the initial url, but if you use history.pushState(), it no longer works
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  895. # [23:21] <caitp> actually I'm wrong, it seems to not work even on the initial url, based on the reproduction in this bug
  896. # [23:23] <caitp> awit no, I wasn't wrong
  897. # [23:27] <caitp> i think the issue is actually someone reproducing a bug wrong, it looks like it works well enough for the use cases we want to support
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  910. # [23:33] <annevk> TabAtkins_: you keep both the input string and the parsed URL object
  911. # [23:34] <annevk> TabAtkins_: that was the model, iirc
  912. # [23:34] <TabAtkins_> caitp: What pdr said, yes.
  913. # [23:34] <annevk> TabAtkins_: URLs are parsed relative to the base URL of the style sheet
  914. # [23:34] <TabAtkins_> annevk: Okay. Why do you need the input string?
  915. # [23:34] <annevk> TabAtkins_: for the object model
  916. # [23:34] <TabAtkins_> Ah, right, to serialize.
  917. # [23:34] <TabAtkins_> kk
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  926. # [23:45] <caitp> oh no, it is still doing something weird, at least in webkit/blink, basically if you pushState() and then cause the SVG to be re-rendered in some fashion, it gets it wrong, weird
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  928. # [23:47] <pdr> caitp, can you create a small example?
  929. # [23:48] <caitp> tobias bosch put together this reproduction http://plnkr.co/edit/YgBEuHuTFZXlpe7SLWrc?p=preview which goes into a bit more detail
  930. # [23:51] <caitp> although I don't see what difference setTimeout makes in his example
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  937. # Session Close: Fri Sep 19 00:00:00 2014

The end :)