/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-09-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Sep 22 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <caitp> i'm not in that universe really
  4. # [00:00] <tantek> screenshots on iOS and MacOS are PNGs - without any EXIF
  5. # [00:00] <GPHemsley> So, annevk uses <data> but not @title
  6. # [00:00] <caitp> sure, but that's a fixable problem
  7. # [00:00] <GPHemsley> and by <data> I mean <time>
  8. # [00:00] <tantek> so, which universe/platform are you on which puts EXIF in screentshots?
  9. # [00:01] <caitp> browsers can do it, WMs can do it
  10. # [00:01] * GPHemsley consistently forgets that the element is <time> and not <date>
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  12. # [00:02] <tantek> caitp - did't ask who "can" - asked who *does*
  13. # [00:02] <tantek> feel free to demonstrate EXIF in a screenshot by posting a URL to an example.
  14. # [00:02] <caitp> who cares :p the point is all about the fact that metadata exists
  15. # [00:02] <tantek> have yet to see *any* platform/device actually put EXIF in screenshots
  16. # [00:02] <caitp> so resolving the absolute time from relative times in a screenshot is possible
  17. # [00:02] <tantek> nope, it doesn't exist - you're making it up ;)
  18. # [00:02] <tantek> i.e. citation needed
  19. # [00:03] <caitp> we know that image metadata does exist, it's used in basically every cellphone and digital camera ever
  20. # [00:03] <caitp> whether it's used by OSes is irrelevant
  21. # [00:03] <caitp> it could be used
  22. # [00:03] <caitp> if it's not used, it's arguably a bug
  23. # [00:03] <caitp> people deal with relative time better than exact dates
  24. # [00:04] <caitp> it's harder to remember what you were doing on 9/08/2014 than it is to remember what you were doing 2 weeks ago
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  26. # [00:05] <caitp> i mean, I don't have data to support that claim, it's anecdotal from my own experience
  27. # [00:05] <caitp> but if the data were collected, you'd probably find that
  28. # [00:05] <GPHemsley> oh, great, and he uses "fortnight"
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  31. # [00:15] * GPHemsley looks at OpenSSL and wonders where Poerto Rico is
  32. # [00:15] <GPHemsley> "HTTP 405 - Method Not Allowed
  33. # [00:15] <GPHemsley> (If you are a human being, this should have never happened)"
  34. # [00:15] <GPHemsley> Hmm
  35. # [00:15] * GPHemsley reevaluates himself
  36. # [00:17] <GPHemsley> oh, I guess I'm back to being a human now
  37. # [00:17] <tantek> caitp - yes it's (arguably) a bug - OS screenshots don't save EXIFs, which last time I checked, only apply to JPEGs, whereas screenshots use PNG typically.
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  41. # [00:19] <caitp> or bmp if you're super lucky!
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  104. # [04:38] <MikeSmith> if anybody here is familiar with the process of uploading stuff to Maven Central and can help me some time soon, I'd appreciate it
  105. # [04:38] <MikeSmith> in order to resolve https://github.com/validator/validator.github.io/issues/10
  106. # [04:39] <MikeSmith> the OP there provides a link to http://maven.apache.org/guides/mini/guide-central-repository-upload.html but that guide seems near worthless
  107. # [04:39] <MikeSmith> at least worthless to somebody like me who knows next to nothing about Maven in general
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  153. # [08:31] <ionas> If I have a semantic set of data called “record” and I want to display 1 record by specifing data of its fields - how would you map that most semantically?
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  157. # [08:38] <ionas> Does this look all right?
  158. # [08:38] <ionas> http://pastie.org/9582924
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  167. # [09:06] <zcorpan> mathiasbynens: maybe our showModalDialog article should mention that only a <dialog> polyfill might not be enough if there's a lot to refactor - http://thinkingoutsidetheanglebrackets.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/removal-of-showmodaldialog-and.html
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  169. # [09:14] <annevk> I only use relative dates on the home page
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  176. # [09:43] <annevk> Hixie_: bug reporting from the spec seems to take longer?
  177. # [09:45] <ionas> seems neither <nav> nor <section> want to live without at least a h6
  178. # [09:50] <ionas> http://pastie.org/9583128 - trying to represent a data record most semantically
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  185. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> annevk: for ServiceWorker, about the cause of the (proposed) decision from Google to not ship offline/cache is v1, is it maybe due in part to https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/468 from mnot?
  186. # [10:19] <annevk> MikeSmith: I don't know
  187. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> ok
  188. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> I guess I'll just talk with Kenji
  189. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> ionas: I'd just use <div>
  190. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> ionas: with a class value if you want -- like, <div class=record>
  191. # [10:20] <ionas> MikeSmith: its not just an abstract division though, each section groups certain types
  192. # [10:20] <ionas> and the record has a title
  193. # [10:21] <ionas> and is self-sustained - eg. an article
  194. # [10:21] <MikeSmith> I don't think any of that makes it unsuitable for marking up with <div>
  195. # [10:21] <MikeSmith> the semantic elements like article are kind of a lost cause IMHO
  196. # [10:21] <ionas> MikeSmith: just because you CAN use div/span everywhere
  197. # [10:21] <ionas> does not mean you have to
  198. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> yeah I didn't say you had to
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  200. # [10:22] <ionas> I think they are fine, they also add options to style things without cluttering tons of classes
  201. # [10:22] <ionas> like <div class=“record”>
  202. # [10:22] <ionas> the worst thing lately happening is all that css-class-soup coming through those pseudo frontend frameworks
  203. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> if that's the worst thing you've seen happening lately, you're lucky
  204. # [10:24] <ionas> such a fall-back into dark-table-ages - ultra huge DOM trees due to just wrapping divs with classes, that’s the other reason to go “semantic” (thinking about what data you represent) - so personally I’d love to see many more semantic tags like record, product, etc - generic “nouns” that can be adapted for different use cases and have some guideline how to use
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  206. # [10:25] <ionas> hehe ;) - yes bootstrap/div-soup/class-soup really made some projects a big pain due to bad practise/design.
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  211. # [10:35] <annevk> Hixie_: might just be W3C Bugzilla that is very slow
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  214. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah, that
  215. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> w3c systems are having some load problems right now
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  217. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> systems team is working on getting it resolved
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  222. # [10:52] <annevk> jgraham: https://plus.google.com/+IanBicking/posts/Cz95yhYK3aG seems apt for the further investment in DreamHost strategy
  223. # [10:52] <annevk> jgraham: although I suppose I might still get fed up with it after a while
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  234. # [11:22] <jgraham> annevk: Right, the correct evaluation is long term cost of moving to another host vs long term cost of staying on Dreamhost. The first option is front-loaded in that there is some switching cost (although you don't have to make a big-bang change of course), but there amy well be a break even point and it might not even be too far in the future
  235. # [11:23] <Ms2ger> Amy?
  236. # [11:23] * Ms2ger ducks
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  238. # [11:26] <gsnedders> Amy's vital to any moving plan!
  239. # [11:27] * tobie__ is now known as tobie
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  242. # [11:32] <jgraham> Yes, she's going to do the heavy lifting
  243. # [11:33] <gsnedders> Assigning elements to sections is hard, part ten: <p class=category>cats</p><h2>Pillar</h2><p>Pillar is a three-legged cat
  244. # [11:33] <annevk> Amy?
  245. # [11:34] <annevk> jgraham: as the switching cost involves learning how to manage a server, it seems pretty high
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  251. # [11:41] <jgraham> annevk: Well how hard that is depends a lot on what you're doing. Running a simple HTTP server is easy. Running a mail server is hard enough that I'm not prepared to try it. Running a HTTP server and a DB server is somewhere in the middle
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  260. # [11:56] <hsivonen> jgraham: fyi, your take on the W3C HTML5 spec is being spun into "Mozilla doesn't care about a11y" propaganda on Twitter
  261. # [11:56] <Ms2ger> Of course it is
  262. # [11:57] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: I'm not suggesting that this is surprising, but failing to point to specific bogosities helps the propaganda
  263. # [11:58] <Ms2ger> And thank you for that
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  270. # [12:14] <zcorpan> anyone know of a "browser" icon in svg that is cc0?
  271. # [12:15] <zcorpan> that looks good at 16x16px
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  275. # [12:20] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: https://openclipart.org/
  276. # [12:20] <MikeSmith> if you didn't try that already
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  279. # [12:25] <zcorpan> didn't find anything suitable
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  281. # [12:29] <jgraham> hsivonen: It seems like "Mozilla a11y are implementing based on the W3C version of the spec" would be useful input to the dev.platform thread. That is something we can use as leverage to get observable differences backported to the WHATWG version, which seems like a good outcome. I also don't have kind words for people who perfer to drum up a Twitter storm rather than engage in reasoned discussion.
  282. # [12:31] <karlcow> hsivonen: no.
  283. # [12:31] <karlcow> the message of Ms2ger is. Not the one of jgraham.
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  285. # [12:35] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: http://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Deer_park_globe.svg maybe
  286. # [12:35] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: it looks a lot like firefox nightly
  287. # [12:36] <zcorpan> but maybe
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  289. # [12:37] <MikeSmith> also I see now it's cc-by -_-
  290. # [12:37] <MikeSmith> not cc0
  291. # [12:37] <zcorpan> looks like it actually is the nightly icon :-)
  292. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: Yeah but I doubt you'll find 1 normal person out of 1000 who would know it's the nightly icon
  293. # [12:39] <zcorpan> this is for https://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker not for normal persons :-P
  294. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> Ah
  295. # [12:42] <annevk> looks like an old version of the icon
  296. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> if it's a icon for recognition by people who actually work on browser code and testing, you need something that connotes pain and anxiety
  297. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> e.g., more like an exploding planet
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  299. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> http://33.media.tumblr.com/b338a6a8b147ae1edba94b1087fcdf02/tumblr_momln1lZYE1qetz3to1_500.jpg
  300. # [12:50] <annevk> Can someone help me debug this:
  301. # [12:50] <annevk> RedirectMatch 301 ^/tools/web-apps-tracker\?from\=(\d+)\&to\=(\d+)$ https://html5.org/r/$2
  302. # [12:50] * annevk is still bad with regular expressions
  303. # [12:52] <karlcow> regex101
  304. # [12:53] <karlcow> annevk: do you have an example of two URIs?
  305. # [12:53] <annevk> https://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=8781&to=8782 -> https://html5.org/r/8782
  306. # [12:54] <karlcow> merci
  307. # [12:55] <MikeSmith> annevk: you don't need to escape the = sign, right? though I guess it should still wish just the same if you do
  308. # [12:55] <karlcow> yes no need
  309. # [12:56] <karlcow> and also the &
  310. # [12:56] <MikeSmith> nor the & sign
  311. # [12:56] <annevk> yeah had that before
  312. # [13:00] <karlcow> ^/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=[0-9]+&to=([0-9]+)$ https://html5.org/r/$1
  313. # [13:00] <karlcow> As I'm not sure if apache knows \d
  314. # [13:01] <annevk> it does
  315. # [13:02] <annevk> doesn't work
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  317. # [13:04] <darobin> you need to escape the ?
  318. # [13:04] <karlcow> ah!
  319. # [13:04] <darobin> and indeed Apache regexes are pretty dumb
  320. # [13:05] <darobin> annevk: try with the ? escaped
  321. # [13:05] <karlcow> ? <- conditionnal
  322. # [13:05] <darobin> yeah
  323. # [13:05] <annevk> it's escaped
  324. # [13:05] <darobin> mmmmmmmm
  325. # [13:06] <darobin> oh
  326. # [13:06] <darobin> I'm not sure you can match against the query string
  327. # [13:06] <annevk> are query parameters passed in differently?
  328. # [13:06] <annevk> yeah, seems like it
  329. # [13:06] <annevk> bah
  330. # [13:07] <darobin> mmmm RedirectMatch — that's not mod_rewrite
  331. # [13:07] <karlcow> >Another case is when a CGI needs to be redirected and the CGI takes arguments by the GET method. A "Redirect" or "RedirectMatch" command will redirect the CGI but will not send the CGI's arguments along with it to the new URL.
  332. # [13:08] <karlcow> RewriteEngine on + RewriteRule is your friend
  333. # [13:08] <darobin> annevk: I think that you want to use mod_rewrite instead
  334. # [13:10] <darobin> annevk: RewriteRule can make backreferences to RewriteCond matches, and the latter can match on the QS
  335. # [13:10] <darobin> it's painful though
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  337. # [13:11] <darobin> you could turn web-apps-tracker into a small CGI script that would do this far more easily :)
  338. # [13:12] <annevk> it's a CGI script, but I was hoping not to have to figure out the CGI API again
  339. # [13:12] <darobin> annevk: what language?
  340. # [13:12] <annevk> Python
  341. # [13:12] <annevk> need to figure out how to get the request URL
  342. # [13:13] <darobin> annevk: I presume it's already referencing the from/to values,
  343. # [13:13] <darobin> all you need to add is how to send a 301
  344. # [13:13] <annevk> I think then I'll get into external redirects :-)
  345. # [13:13] <karlcow> Ooooh https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=958887
  346. # [13:17] <darobin> oh, it looks like it's just print 'Status: 301...' and then the Location header
  347. # [13:17] <darobin> nicely close to the metal :)
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  353. # [13:38] <hsivonen> karlcow: there are people on twitter who are particularly taking issue with jgraham's wording
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  364. # [13:55] <zcorpan> what wording?
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  371. # [14:16] <mathiasbynens> zcorpan: this seems up your alley https://github.com/cure53/DOMPurify/issues/32#issuecomment-55027268
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  373. # [14:20] <zcorpan> mathiasbynens: https://github.com/cure53/DOMPurify/issues/32#issuecomment-55896661 seems to say they don't need a css parser anyway, can just iterate the cssom
  374. # [14:21] <zcorpan> but certainly making the cssom suck less is a long term goal
  375. # [14:22] <zcorpan> a problem with iterating the cssom is that you can't do it until the stylesheet is already applied
  376. # [14:22] <zcorpan> but i'm not sure how this thing works to begin with
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  381. # [14:46] <SteveF_> hsivonen: "it doesn't do a11y any favors to hold the permathreads about longdesc as a symbol of pro-a11y activity. " who has been doing that? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Aug/0038.html
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  408. # [15:29] <Ms2ger> karlcow, hmm? People complaining about me?
  409. # [15:31] <zcorpan> does anyone here know how css positioning works with rtl and scrollable elements? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Sep/0294.html
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  411. # [15:32] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: it's all your fault
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  420. # [15:43] <jgraham> SteveF_: FWIW I think that, although longdesc hasn't been mentioned here, it is the constant elephant in the room for a11y discussions. The discussion reached a point where it was clear to me, at least, that if I go blind, anything that required authors to use longdesc would simply not be accessible to me, whether or not it is in the HTML spec. At that point a valid tactic on the "WHATWG side" (if you want that kind of unhelpful characterisation) wou
  421. # [15:43] <jgraham> ... think this attribute is entirely useless if not outright harmful, but it's not worth fighting about". Obviously that didn't happen, and perhaps it was a mistake. On the other side proponents of the attribute showed very little sign that they were engaging with the evidence that it wasn't really a helpful design. Instead they sunk a lot of political capital — more than they could really afford — on forcing it through. Several of the participan
  422. # [15:44] <jgraham> ... had toxic personalities and people weren't prepared to cut them out of the discussion, or disown their behaviour, particularly when they happened to agree with their viewpoint on this one issue. This discussion was one of the things that led to the group becoming a lot more bureaucratic with polls and extension specs and so on. For implementors, maintaining a high cadence is extremely important, not just because it isn't anyone's job to engage in
  423. # [15:44] <jgraham> ... debates, but also because it's necessary to keep improving specific products and the platform as a whole so as not to lose in the marketplace either against direct competitors or whole new technology stacks that don't come with all the legacy baggage. With that in mind a forum with protocols designed to neuter multi-year debates over a single attribute aren't suitable for any other kind of work, and that's why implementors lost interest.
  424. # [15:45] <darobin> well, that's a long thing to say on IRC
  425. # [15:45] <jgraham> So it seems
  426. # [15:47] <SteveF_> jgraham: like many others active in acc specification of html and related features, I have spent very little time in the past few years on longdesc, but it is usually waved around in discussions as it is an easy target
  427. # [15:51] <SteveF_> jgraham: my input on the URL spec thread may be of interest as its subject is relevant to the issues - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3process/2014Sep/0015.html *warning* lacks hyperbole and fisticuffs
  428. # [15:51] <jgraham> SteveF_: Right, but this is something that happened a few years ago. The fact that everyone — in some particularly unhelpful way — got what they wanted, with a WHATWG spec not containing longdesc and a W3C extension spec containing longdesc, makes it unsurprising that people moved on to new things in the meantime. But the effects of that earlier phase are still shaping the way we operate today.
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  433. # [15:54] <Ms2ger> jgraham, your wall of text above is missing things, fwiw
  434. # [15:55] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Not for me!
  435. # [15:55] <tantek> whoa - email in IRC - amazing!
  436. # [15:55] <Ms2ger> characterisation) wo
  437. # [15:55] <Ms2ger> <jgraham> ... think this
  438. # [15:55] <jgraham> 'would have been to say "we'
  439. # [15:56] <SteveF_> jgraham: i agree, I moved on to more interesting stuff to me, I interact with the whatwg on rare occasions I need to, rarely a pleasant experience, fact is the acc layer implementation stuff does not happen whatwg
  440. # [15:56] <SteveF_> at whatwg
  441. # [15:56] <tantek> this: "the effects of that earlier phase are still shaping the way we operate today"
  442. # [15:57] * Quits: jensnockert (~jensnocke@s83-179-51-171.cust.tele2.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  443. # [15:57] <SteveF_> nor does the specification of acc layer stuff
  444. # [15:57] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@2001:450:1f:224:70f5:b90c:1232:53e2)
  445. # [15:57] <Ms2ger> SteveF_, yeah, so it seems
  446. # [15:58] <Ms2ger> SteveF_, I haven't followed that, though, so I'm not sure how that's relevant to the HTML 5 PR?
  447. # [15:58] <tantek> SteveF - where does specification of acc layer stuff happen that is *not* so political, and instead actually data-driven on helping the most people by creating acc tech that easy *and* reliable for authors to use?
  448. # [15:59] * Joins: abinader (sid21713@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bskofevsaglkhcmn)
  449. # [16:00] <SteveF_> tantek: at w3c in mailing lists, bugs etc, on browser bugs in discussion on irc , the usual
  450. # [16:00] <annevk> mathiasbynens: what's the status of javascript.spec.whatwg.org?
  451. # [16:00] <annevk> mathiasbynens: are you planning on pushing out an update to align with ES6?
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  453. # [16:01] <tantek> SteveF - that hasn't been my experience with w3c mailing lists, bugs, etc.
  454. # [16:02] <SteveF_> rleevance to PR for me is that i went through the requirements in the aria section of the w3c HTML spec and tested them where there were issues I filed bugs either against browsers or against the spec
  455. # [16:02] <tantek> in that way, "longdesc" has served a purpose - it has provided an easy litmus test as to whether someone involved in working on acc layer stuff is being helpful or political.
  456. # [16:03] <zcorpan> jgraham: you should have said it on twitter instead
  457. # [16:03] <SteveF_> tantek: its all politics, i pick and choose who and which people/lists i interact with
  458. # [16:03] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  459. # [16:04] <SteveF_> tantek: to get stuff done
  460. # [16:04] * Quits: BigBangUDR (~Thunderbi@103.249.181.147) (Quit: BigBangUDR)
  461. # [16:04] <tantek> SteveF: "its all politics" <-- and that is why people simply walk away and go to WHATWG, or #indiewebcamp etc.
  462. # [16:04] <tantek> some of us don't believe in cultures of "its all politics"
  463. # [16:04] <SteveF_> tantek: a poltical statement in itself
  464. # [16:05] <tantek> SteveF - note, I didn't say *zero* politics, I am merely pointing out that any "all politics" cultures are basically deadends
  465. # [16:05] <tantek> and that implementers will shift to communities with more focus on building, and less focus on politics.
  466. # [16:07] <SteveF_> tantek: i work with moz acc engineers to get stuff done and to improve the acc implementation stuff defined and thats why you find people like Marco Zehe disagreeing with the dominant view
  467. # [16:07] <Ms2ger> tantek, seems like that might not be the case in a11y
  468. # [16:07] <Ms2ger> Anyway, if the people doing the a11y work want to do that at w3c, that seems fine with me
  469. # [16:08] <Ms2ger> We should definitely make sure that the whatwg spec matches implementations, though
  470. # [16:08] <tantek> Ms2ger - hence my original question of "where does specification of acc layer stuff happen that is *not* so political, and instead actually data-driven " - though I should is is not so *primarily* political.
  471. # [16:09] <mathiasbynens> annevk: no bandwidth to pick this up atm, but yeah – it now uses the latest draft as a ref
  472. # [16:09] <tantek> Ms2ger - agreed with "if the people doing the a11y work want to do that at w3c, that seems fine with me" - as long as it is features which actually *help* people and are practical for authors.
  473. # [16:09] <mathiasbynens> annevk: recently removed some things that have now progressed to the ES draft
  474. # [16:09] <annevk> mathiasbynens: can you maybe add a disclaimer somewhere?
  475. # [16:09] <mathiasbynens> but there are more
  476. # [16:09] <jgraham> It is very unclear to me that "create a specification -> change the specification in incompatible ways to address a11y issues -> try to backport the changes" is going to result in better a11y outcomes than "work together to create a specification with a11y designed in from the start"
  477. # [16:09] <annevk> mathiasbynens: yeah all the string stuff has moved iirc
  478. # [16:09] <SteveF_> "if the people doing the a11y work" i didn't say that, but i have much more in common with whatwg than others
  479. # [16:10] <Ms2ger> SteveF_, sorry, that's how I interpreted what you said about working with Mozilla engineers
  480. # [16:11] <SteveF_> Ms2ger: no what i meant is that i don't find w3c a pleasant place to work, just pleasenter than others
  481. # [16:11] <Ms2ger> I see
  482. # [16:11] <Ms2ger> Where by "others" you also mean whatwg?
  483. # [16:12] <SteveF_> and i don't have to spend cycles butting heads with hixie on stuff we can't reach agreement with
  484. # [16:12] <darobin> there are other others?
  485. # [16:12] <darobin> :)
  486. # [16:12] <SteveF_> also its where I can get feedback from acc engineers
  487. # [16:13] <Ms2ger> Well, the whatwg spec should eventually end up matching what browsers do, even if Hixie_ doesn't agree
  488. # [16:14] <Ms2ger> See: main / picture / style attribute / ...
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  490. # [16:14] <gsnedders> SteveF_: I think my view is there's nothing wrong with people doing work in the W3C space, even though I think a lot of the policies around stuff like testsuites end up ultimately being detrimental
  491. # [16:15] <SteveF_> gsnedders: sure work where you find it most productive, but we could save some time if we work together instead of in a constant state of siege
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  494. # [16:16] <Ms2ger> SteveF_, I certainly hope nobody disagrees with that sentiment here :)
  495. # [16:16] * Joins: gavin__ (~gavin@76.14.42.120)
  496. # [16:17] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: FORMAL OBJECTION. Arguments make for more interesting Twitter discussions!
  497. # [16:17] * Joins: bholley (~bholley@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  498. # [16:17] * Ms2ger kicks gsnedders
  499. # [16:17] <SteveF_> Ms2ger: the elephant in the room for HTML is that no spec scratches the surface on acc layer implementation, i have been trying to work on that for a while only now is there some traction occuring.
  500. # [16:18] <Ms2ger> SteveF_, nobody except gsnedders here* ;)
  501. # [16:18] <Ms2ger> SteveF_, that's good to hear
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  504. # [16:19] <jgraham> Yeah improving the a11y layer implementation seems like good work
  505. # [16:20] <gsnedders> (I'm not actually qualified to speak about anything recently, I've scarcely read whatwg or public-html in several years.)
  506. # [16:20] <gsnedders> (and I think making statements from how things were years ago probably isn't helpful)
  507. # [16:20] <SteveF_> FYI this is the re-start of html specific doc http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html
  508. # [16:21] <SteveF_> there is also one being developed for svg and a core/aria spec
  509. # [16:21] <Ms2ger> Looks interesting
  510. # [16:22] <jgraham> SteveF_: shouldn't that document start "this document *defines*", not "describes"?
  511. # [16:22] * Quits: gavin__ (~gavin@76.14.42.120) (Remote host closed the connection)
  512. # [16:22] <Ms2ger> Not that I have expertise to say anything more
  513. # [16:23] <SteveF_> jgraham: probably, feedback welcome! as of now its just a copy of the informative doc i worked on in the past have to get down to editing it more
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  517. # [16:25] <SteveF_> we are still working out the organization of stuff between the docs
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  521. # [16:27] * SteveF_ been too busy stoking the fires on twitter today to do anything productive
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  524. # [16:28] <SteveF_> jgraham: btw would still like to get the acc tests into test repository, but unclear what hoops i need to jump to do so
  525. # [16:29] <tantek> never stoke the fires on Twitter
  526. # [16:29] <SteveF_> or whether they fit into the scheme
  527. # [16:29] <gsnedders> SteveF_: many of them need to be manual, no? afaik the manual test support is still a bit rough
  528. # [16:29] <gsnedders> SteveF_: they should totally be there
  529. # [16:29] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@5.219-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  530. # [16:30] <SteveF_> gsnedders: yes they need to be manual as they require using non automated tool to test
  531. # [16:30] <gsnedders> SteveF_: but they do need to be written at a level where a monkey can run them (or at least someone with no knowledge of a11y tools like say screenreaders)
  532. # [16:30] <SteveF_> gsnedders: the best i can do for that is to provide detailed instructions and examples
  533. # [16:32] <SteveF_> gsnedders: example of test http://stevefaulkner.github.io/html-mapping-tests/browser-tests/button.html
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  535. # [16:33] <SteveF_> gsnedders: current instructions here http://stevefaulkner.github.io/html-mapping-tests/ think they need to be more detailed prescriptive http://stevefaulkner.github.io/html-mapping-tests/
  536. # [16:33] <gsnedders> SteveF_: if you're around in a few hours, ping me then and I'll try and put together a list of what I think needs done
  537. # [16:33] <jgraham> SteveF_: If they are something that browsers can run they should be in there. It would be great if we can find a scheme to make them automatable
  538. # [16:34] <jgraham> (automated tests have thousands of times the value of non-automated tests)
  539. # [16:34] <SteveF_> gsendders: thanks!
  540. # [16:35] <SteveF_> jgraham: i agree and its a laborious task manually testing
  541. # [16:35] <SteveF_> jgraham: but am not aware of any automated method
  542. # [16:36] * Joins: BigBangUDR (~Thunderbi@115.247.210.74)
  543. # [16:37] <jgraham> SteveF_: It seems like it should be quite possible — at least for that test — to expose the expectation information in some machine-parsable way. Then the actions required to run the test might be amenable to webdriver and getting the result out might be possible with platform-specific querying of the a11y API
  544. # [16:37] * Joins: jensnockert (~jensnocke@s83-179-51-171.cust.tele2.se)
  545. # [16:37] <jgraham> So I think with a bit of effort we can make it possible to run these tests in an automated way
  546. # [16:38] <SteveF_> jgraham: i know that you can get a dump of acc tree in chrome, but don't believe that you can do same in FF/IE, will ask moz acc
  547. # [16:40] <jgraham> SteveF_: Right, but I guess the platform has APIs for getting at it? I mean these are mappings to the actual platform feature, right? So even if you had to write a native program that queried the tree, it seems like it's possible
  548. # [16:40] <annevk> mathiasbynens: you could also ask on Twitter perhaps if there's someone willing to help out
  549. # [16:41] <jgraham> It isn't as cross-browser/cross-platform as I would like, but it's not impossible to imagine doing 90% of the work and saying to vendors "if you want to run these tests you ahve to do the last 10% yourselves"
  550. # [16:41] <SteveF_> >I mean these are mappings to the actual platform feature, right? yes,
  551. # [16:41] <SteveF_> features are mapped to platform apis
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  553. # [16:42] <SteveF_> am talking with david bolter over on irc://moznet/accessibility
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  557. # [16:47] <gsnedders> oh, jgraham has just said half of what I was going to say
  558. # [16:47] <gsnedders> Typical.
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  560. # [16:47] <annevk> Was that the other half?
  561. # [16:48] <gsnedders> Nah, that was mostly about being more self-documenting
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  563. # [16:48] <gsnedders> But that's for later when I'm not working
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  565. # [16:49] <wilhelm> SteveF_: If that can be exposed to WebDriver (or even better: JavaScript) somehow, you're all good.
  566. # [16:49] <gsnedders> wilhelm: it can't be to JS, as it has to see over the whole rendered viewport, cross-origin
  567. # [16:51] <SteveF_> "davidb: we currently test our a11y core layer via automated tests but we don't open this up for web content (ripe security attack surface)."
  568. # [16:53] <darobin> that's fine
  569. # [16:53] <wilhelm> Then the difficult work is already done. Add a hook for WebDriver, and you've got your data.
  570. # [16:53] <darobin> I mean, you also don't expose everyone's browser using WebDriver to the open web :)
  571. # [16:54] <jgraham> Actually webdriver having access to the a11y tree seems independently good
  572. # [16:54] <wilhelm> Yes.
  573. # [16:54] <darobin> right
  574. # [16:54] <darobin> in fact I would be surprised if it didn't also enable things that aren't obviously a11y related
  575. # [16:54] <jgraham> It would allow people to write tests for their content being accessible with a much lower level of expertise than it currently requires
  576. # [16:56] <wilhelm> Yeah, you could do "iterate over all elements with an onclick handler, check if they have the appropriate roles set".
  577. # [16:56] <darobin> yeah, proper a11y linting would be a pretty damn good idea
  578. # [16:59] <wilhelm> The best way to do this, I think, is to work with a browser vendor on prototyping something. WebDriver is easily extended: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver/raw-file/default/webdriver-spec.html#extending-the-protocol
  579. # [16:59] <wilhelm> Then we'll have implementation experience enough to put something in the spec.
  580. # [16:59] <jgraham> Hahaha
  581. # [16:59] <wilhelm> jgraham: Sssh!
  582. # [16:59] <jgraham> "webdriver is easily extended"
  583. # [17:00] <jgraham> So far no one actually implements that spec :|
  584. # [17:00] <wilhelm> Details!
  585. # [17:00] <wilhelm> (Says the chair of the WG.)
  586. # [17:00] <wilhelm> :P
  587. # [17:01] <wilhelm> jgraham: Many, uh, still extend it, though.
  588. # [17:01] <jgraham> Heh, well that's true
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  590. # [17:02] <caitp> why do people believe that email addresses require top level domains in the domain part
  591. # [17:02] <jgraham> Certianly on my personal priority list "make an actual spec implementation" is higher than "figure out how to hook into the a11y tree and extend the protocol to support that"
  592. # [17:03] <annevk> darobin: hmm, forgot FormData depends on HTMLFormElement
  593. # [17:03] <wilhelm> And the spec is less "designing a new thing" and more "consolidating existing implementations".
  594. # [17:03] <annevk> darobin: we're doomed
  595. # [17:03] <jgraham> But hopefully someone else does both
  596. # [17:03] <darobin> annevk: it was just an example :)
  597. # [17:03] <wilhelm> jgraham: Different humans can work on different things.
  598. # [17:03] <darobin> annevk: but yeah, I know it's non-trivial, and am certainly not claiming that it is
  599. # [17:04] <gsnedders> caitp: because practically all those in the real world do
  600. # [17:04] <jgraham> wilhelm: I have asked around and apparently I can subcontract my work to as many Trafalgar Square pigeons as I like, but humans are out of the question
  601. # [17:05] <gsnedders> well I guess that means any crumbs are cleaned up quickly
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  604. # [17:06] <caitp> i think the most commonly used email address in the world actually doesn't contain a TLD though :c
  605. # [17:06] <caitp> oh well
  606. # [17:06] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@78.33.155.138) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  607. # [17:06] <gsnedders> caitp: really?
  608. # [17:07] <caitp> yeah, like root@localhost
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  610. # [17:08] <wilhelm> jgraham: The humans working on mapping HTML elements<->ARIA roles in browsers should also make their stuff testable.
  611. # [17:09] <wilhelm> Other humans can work on actually adhering to the WebDriver spec.
  612. # [17:09] <gsnedders> caitp: mhmm, maybe. but quite probably localhost is a special case in terms of those that see much use
  613. # [17:11] <SteveF_> willhem: note that ARIA roles are not generally mapped to HTML elements, only in cases where no platform role exists
  614. # [17:12] <SteveF_> willhelm: and then usually a string representation is exposed using the APIs standard methods
  615. # [17:15] <jgraham> SteveF_: I think the relevant question for WebDriver is "can you go from a reference to a DOM element to a a11y API subtree?"
  616. # [17:15] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@f055128236.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Quit: Die demokratieerhaltende Whistleblowerplattform Krautchan freut sich immer über Spenden.)
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  618. # [17:16] <SteveF_> jgraham: right, thats what the desktop tool we developed does
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  620. # [17:17] <SteveF_> jgraham: http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/aviewer/ (windows only) ;-(
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  624. # [17:21] <jgraham> SteveF_: Right so Webdriver would presumably have an API like getAccessibilityTree(element) which would return some representation of that tree
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  626. # [17:21] <SteveF_> jgraham: yes
  627. # [17:21] <wilhelm> Yes.
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  668. # [18:27] <Hixie_> anyone understand https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26871 ?
  669. # [18:28] <caitp> > needs-more-info
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  719. # [20:09] <Hixie_> you know what would be cool
  720. # [20:10] <Hixie_> a [Constructor] that returned a promise
  721. # [20:13] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: No, that violates what a constructor means.
  722. # [20:13] <Hixie_> i don't mean literally a [Constructor]
  723. # [20:14] <Hixie_> i mean something so there was a specific syntax to use like var f = async new Foo();
  724. # [20:14] <Hixie_> rather than the current state of the art, factory methods
  725. # [20:14] <annevk> asyncnew
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  727. # [20:16] <Domenic> Unclear why that is better than var f = foo();
  728. # [20:17] <Hixie_> why is var f = new Foo(); better than var f = foo(); ?
  729. # [20:17] <Domenic> because you know that f will have Foo.prototype as its prototype.
  730. # [20:17] <Hixie_> i was going to go with "it's not", but ok
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  732. # [20:18] <Hixie_> given your answer, an async new would be better than a factory method because "you know that the promise's value will have Foo.prototype as its prototype"
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  734. # [20:19] <Domenic> hmm
  735. # [20:19] <Hixie_> but the real reason imho is because it more closely matches the programming mindset
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  737. # [20:19] <boogyman> conventions change, what's "best practices" today, may not be so in the future.
  738. # [20:19] <Hixie_> there's a distinct conceptual difference between "Call a method" and "Call a constructor" which is still a real difference even if the result is delayed
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  748. # [20:26] <TabAtkins> Agree that this is a bit of impedance mismatch from async getting grafted onto JS late.
  749. # [20:26] <Hixie_> foolip: ping https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25897
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  818. # [22:17] <Domenic> Using URLs as IDs, instead of as places to navigate to/download from, seems like a failure historically. (See: XML namespaces.) Do we have any good links on this topic I can point someone to?
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  824. # [22:24] <caitp> yeah, or when a url is a resource in its own right, whose wacky idea was that
  825. # [22:25] <TabAtkins> caitp: I think I know what you're referring to, but can you clarify?
  826. # [22:27] <caitp> data-uris
  827. # [22:28] <caitp> but really I'm just making fun of the U(niform) in a pretty non-uniform system
  828. # [22:29] <TabAtkins> caitp: Oh, data-urls just point to a resource in the akashic record, which can be accessed intrinsically at all times.
  829. # [22:29] <TabAtkins> Or the platonic realm of knowledge, if your epistemology leans that way.
  830. # [22:30] <TabAtkins> There's just so much *stuff* in the Record that you can't give anything a short name, you've gotta be really specific about precisely which resource you're pointing at.
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  848. # [23:02] <annevk> Domenic: there's https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Namespace_confusion on namespaces
  849. # [23:04] <Domenic> waaaugh mixed content
  850. # [23:04] <annevk> Domenic: if you're not logged in there's some problem with cached content
  851. # [23:04] <annevk> Domenic: GPHemsley can fix it I think, or maybe provide you with access to the wiki so you can fix it if he doesn't have the time
  852. # [23:05] <Domenic> oh man we have official members? https://whatwg.org/charter
  853. # [23:06] <Hixie_> technically
  854. # [23:06] <karlcow> 06:06:51.920 Blocked loading mixed active content "http://wiki.whatwg.org/load.php?debug=false&lang=en&modules=ext.gadget.HotCat%2CReferenceTooltips%2CUTCLiveClock%2CWatchlistChangesBold%2Ccharinsert%2Cexlinks%2Cwidensearch%7Cmediawiki.legacy.commonPrint%2Cshared%7Cskins.vector&only=styles&skin=vector&*"[Learn More] Namespace_confusion
  855. # [23:06] <karlcow> 06:06:51.921 Blocked loading mixed active content "http://wiki.whatwg.org/load.php?debug=false&lang=en&modules=site&only=styles&skin=vector&*"[Learn More] Namespace_confusion
  856. # [23:06] <karlcow> 06:06:51.921 Blocked loading mixed active content "http://wiki.whatwg.org/load.php?debug=false&lang=en&modules=startup&only=scripts&skin=vector&*"[Learn More] Namespace_confusion
  857. # [23:06] <karlcow> 06:06:51.955 Blocked loading mixed active content "http://wiki.whatwg.org/load.php?debug=false&lang=en&modules=site&only=scripts&skin=vector&*"[Learn More]
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  859. # [23:06] <Hixie_> Domenic: though that's about the only part of that page that's still accurate
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  861. # [23:06] <Hixie_> karlcow: ping GPHemsley
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  864. # [23:10] <annevk> oh wow, MediaWiki uses getPreventDefault()
  865. # [23:11] <annevk> there's a whole bunch of annoying warnings from MediaWiki
  866. # [23:11] <annevk> sad sad sad
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  874. # [23:22] <Hixie_> getPreventDefault?
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  876. # [23:27] <Ms2ger> Hixie_, an alias for defaultPrevented
  877. # [23:27] <Hixie_> nice
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  883. # [23:39] <caitp> i assume it was added in gecko before defaultPrevented ever existed, but that's kind of a weird name for it :x
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  894. # Session Close: Tue Sep 23 00:00:00 2014

The end :)