/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-10-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Oct 02 00:00:01 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  10. # [00:16] <Hixie> we are gonna have to clean up this caniuse data
  11. # [00:16] <Hixie> the spec links in particular. even if you ignore that they point to TR/ pages more often than not, some of the frag IDs are not very precise.
  12. # [00:17] <Hixie> also there's not that much data here, all things considered.
  13. # [00:17] <Hixie> what do people think: should we keep the current system, or switch to caniuse.com data when the latter would only annotate 26 places in the spec?
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  16. # [00:25] <Hixie> jgraham: you around?
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  21. # [00:30] <Ms2ger> Hixie, doesn't sound like it's worth it
  22. # [00:31] <Ms2ger> Hixie, I'd be more interested in test results once we aggregate those
  23. # [00:31] <Hixie> i think i'm going to drop the current boxes and replace it with caniuse data and links to bugs
  24. # [00:31] <Hixie> the current links to bugs thing isn't very up to date, i think
  25. # [00:32] <Hixie> and drop the "section status" stuff
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  27. # [00:33] <Hixie> but if there's other stuff that can be added in, like test results, i'm happy to add those
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  44. # [01:25] <Hixie> kittens, even with the HTML5 spec i get multiple versions of the w3c spec
  45. # [01:25] <Hixie> not quite as bad as the canvas spec was, but still
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  47. # [01:26] <Hixie> just in my caniuse/bugs processing code, i have five lines just to recognise URLs that refer to the w3c html5 spec
  48. # [01:26] <Hixie> (i have five lines for the whatwg spec too, but four of those are redirects now)
  49. # [01:27] <Hixie> oh, found another. w3c html5 specs.
  50. # [01:27] <Hixie> six of them.
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  52. # [01:29] <Hixie> 7.
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  59. # [01:41] <Hixie> TabAtkins: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25472#c18 disagrees with your argument about how a successful promise should never represent user cancelation
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  64. # [02:26] <tantek> Hixie, obligatory reference to xkcd.com/927
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  66. # [02:33] <MikeSmith> embind looks fairly cool http://kripken.github.io/emscripten-site/docs/porting/connecting_cpp_and_javascript/embind.html
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  68. # [02:36] <MikeSmith> now you can do manual memory management in JavaScript! http://kripken.github.io/emscripten-site/docs/porting/connecting_cpp_and_javascript/embind.html#memory-management
  69. # [02:38] <tantek> yo dawg we heard you like memory management
  70. # [02:39] <caitp> are we still talking about llvm IC converted to js, or is emscripten doing something else now?
  71. # [02:41] <caitp> (it's pretty cool either way, i'm just not understanding how emscripten is providing bindings between js and C++ now if it runs entirely in a JS sandbox)
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  76. # [03:07] <Hixie> tantek: these aren't competing standards, these are the same standard, forked multiple times by one organisation
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  79. # [03:11] <tantek> Hixie s/competing/confusing
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  134. # [06:46] <zcorpan> Hixie: what are the html5 spec URLs? i can send a PR to fix them
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  140. # [07:22] <Hixie> zcorpan: if you mean in the caniuse.com data, there's a number of things we could ask to have changed, e.g. most of the things that use TR/ drafts could point to more recent actively maintained versions, the whatwg.org statuses could be changed to "other", and we could suggest that the whatwg specs be used as canonical rather than the forks
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  150. # [07:55] <MikeSmith> caitp: it's emscripten doing something else now (though I don't know the actual mechanics of how it's doing it)
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  154. # [08:02] <MikeSmith> Hixie: https://twitter.com/jschauma/status/513013363375628288
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  160. # [08:17] <MikeSmith> caitp: http://chadaustin.me/2014/09/connecting-c-and-javascript-on-the-web-with-embind/ has more details if you're interested
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  179. # [09:52] <jgraham> Hixie: does being around now help?
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  184. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> I'm wondering if it's time we just gave up on meta@http-equiv=X-UA-Compatible as a conformance error
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  188. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> everybody's using it in spite of that, so having the validator report an error for it is just an annoying time-waster from the perspective of most authors, I think
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  194. # [10:42] <annevk> heycam|away: I try to avoid [Attributes] as they look ugly
  195. # [10:43] <annevk> heycam|away: also, legacyiterable has the right incentive attached to it
  196. # [10:43] <annevk> heycam|away: (my initial thought was [NoMethods] too though)
  197. # [10:44] <Ms2ger> What's legacyiterable?
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  199. # [10:50] <annevk> Ms2ger: something we can use for HTMLCollection and friends
  200. # [10:50] <annevk> Ms2ger: stuff that gets Symbol.iterator, but not forEach and such
  201. # [10:51] <Ms2ger> Ah
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  204. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: FYI https://github.com/validator/validator/issues/1 about 'error: An “body” start tag seen but an element of the same type was already open.
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  208. # [11:25] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: actual testimonials: https://twitter.com/newtron/status/405370084904173568 https://twitter.com/paulgreg/status/390546545071771648 https://twitter.com/m_strehl/status/383279928709357569 https://twitter.com/mattur/status/377500793575718912
  209. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: you missed one: https://twitter.com/jalbertbowdenii/status/377502617191976960
  210. # [11:26] <zcorpan> there were positive tweets also though
  211. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> oh yeah?
  212. # [11:30] <zcorpan> https://twitter.com/obiwankimberly/status/397701282560872449 https://twitter.com/therealdeiu/status/389486808914219008 https://twitter.com/ia11y/status/379957284660469760 https://twitter.com/gwfrink3/status/378149023921614848
  213. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: wonders never cease
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  216. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I wonder if "I'm hoping this bad idea will just die a natural death soon" would be considered a positive testimonial or a negative one
  217. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> it's positive in that it's expressing hope at least -- it's a hope-filled testimonial
  218. # [11:36] <zcorpan> heh
  219. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: as far something genuinely hopeful and nice to see, https://github.com/twbs/bootstrap/issues/11984#issuecomment-31206072
  220. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> 'A bot that scans for newly posted comments with JS Fiddle or JS Bin links, extracts the HTML portion of the Fiddle/Bin, runs it thru the HTML5 validator, and posts a follow-up comment listing any validation errors. We get a decent number of "bug" reports where the problem is actually due to invalid HTML.'
  221. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> = comments posted to github issue tracker for a particular project
  222. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> and the best part is that the code for just such a bot does now actually exist https://github.com/cvrebert/lmvtfy
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  224. # [11:41] <zcorpan> nice
  225. # [11:41] <zcorpan> but does it check for accessibility?
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  227. # [11:46] <jgraham> "If you're not using [it] yet you don't know what you're missing" is just a statement of fact. An endorsement would be something like "Web Developers SHOULD use the new W3C validator suite"
  228. # [11:46] * krit_ is now known as krit
  229. # [11:47] * jgraham assumes all web authors have read Hixie's guide to how to read specifications
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  231. # [12:02] <smaug____> can service worker open new windows?
  232. # [12:03] * smaug____ is just wondering annevk's question to webapps wg
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  237. # [12:13] <smaug____> ServiceWorkerClient perhaps?
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  243. # [12:22] <smaug____> I don't understand how that setup prevents unwanted popups
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  250. # [12:44] <annevk> smaug____: well it might have to be opt-in
  251. # [12:44] <annevk> smaug____: there's no API today for opening things
  252. # [12:48] <smaug____> we need window opening too for the skype use case
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  254. # [12:48] <smaug____> did you mean "[accept call] [cancel]" kind of case for the notifications?
  255. # [12:48] <smaug____> Wouldn't we possibly need also some kind app-activator-icon
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  260. # [12:54] <annevk> smaug____: well window and popup are the same, no?
  261. # [12:55] <annevk> smaug____: I meant notifications that would basically allow HTML, which is why I just went with the word popup
  262. # [12:55] <annevk> smaug____: so you can show who is calling, etc.
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  264. # [12:59] <smaug____> window and popup aren't quite the same
  265. # [12:59] <smaug____> well
  266. # [12:59] <smaug____> window and notification
  267. # [13:00] <smaug____> window and popup are the same
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  271. # [13:15] <zcorpan> can someone explain https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26952 ?
  272. # [13:25] <jgraham> zcorpan: I imagine Silvia could? I don't understand the percieved conflict at least, so it seems rather needsinfo
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  279. # [13:50] <annevk> smaug____: depends on whether the notification requires a browsing context, imo
  280. # [13:50] <annevk> smaug____: and in this case it would
  281. # [13:51] <annevk> smaug____: but agreed on "not quite", but at this point such details seem a bit premature :-)
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  283. # [13:52] <jgraham> I always forget that the foreign content handling in the parser spec is by "magic"
  284. # [13:52] <jgraham> (i.e. a branch when getting tokens from the tokenizer rather than through the normal state machinery)
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  287. # [13:56] <annevk> Seems I forgot that too, if I never knew it
  288. # [13:56] <annevk> zcorpan: tried
  289. # [13:57] <zcorpan> annevk: thx
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  295. # [14:25] <annevk> Per https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/semantics.html#the-head-element only Firefox implements the <head> element
  296. # [14:33] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I need to submit a patch to change the 'error: An “body” start tag seen but an element of the same type was already open.' emitted from http://hg.mozilla.org/projects/htmlparser/file/ddc1fa48fcc9/src/nu/validator/htmlparser/impl/TreeBuilder.java#l6232
  297. # [14:33] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: any opinion on what it should be changed to?
  298. # [14:34] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: one choice is, just drop the "An" and make it "“body” start tag seen but an element of the same type was already open."
  299. # [14:34] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: oh it's a vs an that is the problem?
  300. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> another is "Start tag “body” seen but an element of the same type was already open."
  301. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah
  302. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> reported at https://github.com/validator/validator/issues/1
  303. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> from one of the boostrap devs
  304. # [14:36] <annevk> Hixie: I can't really come up with a decent way to improve the current set of styles to address the issue I'm seeing in other specs :/
  305. # [14:36] <zcorpan> Start tag “body” seems ok. maybe make the messages a bit more consistent in the wording while at it?
  306. # [14:36] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: Henri currentlly just has "An" harcoded in there
  307. # [14:37] <zcorpan> there's "End tag \u201Cbr\u201D."
  308. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah ok I'll look at the others in there too
  309. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> oh so changeing it would actually make it more consistent then
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  312. # [14:38] <zcorpan> yeah... but i also see "\u201C" + name + "\u201D end tag..."
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  314. # [14:47] <MikeSmith> I guess I should fix that one too then
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  316. # [14:48] <jgraham> annevk: Yeah, all that implementation metadata is crap
  317. # [14:49] <jgraham> I don't know why we still have it
  318. # [14:49] <annevk> The new idea is to get some stuff from caniuse
  319. # [14:49] <jgraham> There is no evidence that anyone is interested in conuming it or keeping it updated
  320. # [14:49] <jgraham> The new old idea (pretty sure that's been floating around for years)
  321. # [14:50] <annevk> I'm experimenting with some rules that make it easier to edit by enlarging it when you hover (and I should probably add focus) it
  322. # [14:51] <jgraham> Is ease of editing the actual problem?
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  324. # [14:55] <annevk> Well, it's not entirely obvious you can edit these
  325. # [14:55] <jgraham> (I guess your answer is "we don't know until we try changing it", which is fair. I guess I wouldn't invest too much effort in it though.)
  326. # [14:55] <jgraham> Yeah, but you and I know that and I certainly never update them
  327. # [15:00] <annevk> True
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  329. # [15:02] <zcorpan> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26951#c7 is a bit depressing
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  334. # [15:07] <jgraham> zcorpan: That seems like it follows from the first law of metadata ("if getting your metadata wrong doesn't actually break anything, it will be wrong often enough to be useless")
  335. # [15:07] <jgraham> zcorpan: Although 98% is still pretty impressive :)
  336. # [15:08] <zcorpan> yeah
  337. # [15:10] <zcorpan> also interesting that it seems there are more cases that are neither "en" nor "es" than there are "es"
  338. # [15:12] <annevk> We used to have the reverse problem. DOCTYPEs stating //EN and people changing it to //NL
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  340. # [15:14] <Ms2ger> "I would have expected that their polyfill would be smart enough to notice a ES7 compliant A.p.contains() and defer to it."
  341. # [15:14] * Ms2ger cackles
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  345. # [15:16] <zcorpan> annevk: maybe that was the same 2% that specified lang=es here :-)
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  351. # [15:18] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I was thinking of coining the phrase "the myth of the suffciently smart web author" in response to that, but maybe I shouldn't ;)
  352. # [15:19] <jgraham> *sufficiently
  353. # [15:19] <Ms2ger> If you're going to typo it, you shouldn't ;)
  354. # [15:19] <jgraham> If that was the criterion I would never be allowed to write anything ever again
  355. # [15:20] <jgraham> I suppose some people might consider that to be a good thing
  356. # [15:21] <jgraham> hsivonen: I pushed your change to html5lib-tests. Do you need to update the patch in bug 886390 ?
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  359. # [15:31] <zcorpan> SteveF_: now i wonder if it's you or me who is out of touch with reality
  360. # [15:31] <SteveF_> zcorpan: both
  361. # [15:32] <zcorpan> SteveF_: github isn't just for personal projects for own consumption
  362. # [15:33] <jgraham> Github is actually a rather popular site hosting platform these days
  363. # [15:33] <jgraham> e.g. it hosts the webdevdata site…
  364. # [15:34] <SteveF_> zcorpan: i realise that but the vast majority of the results you provided are for repos with i contributor and no stars/forks
  365. # [15:35] <zcorpan> SteveF_: how does that say anything about whether they are published on the web and viewed by other users?
  366. # [15:36] <SteveF_> zcorpan: it does not translate to the webdev data set at all
  367. # [15:37] <zcorpan> SteveF_: it's possible that the amount of mislabeling is different for top sites and long tail
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  369. # [15:37] <SteveF_> zcorpan: sure
  370. # [15:38] <SteveF_> i would say it almost definetely is
  371. # [15:38] <zcorpan> so then i still don't see how you conclude that the github pages aren't on the web
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  374. # [15:41] <SteveF_> zcorpan: i would not be overly concerned i only added some lang attributes to some examples (there were already some there) in an editors draft of a bastard fork. think it would be worthwhile adding some advice in there though about lang, will do that
  375. # [15:42] <SteveF_> zcorpan: will take a view, may even remove all and provide advice instead
  376. # [15:43] <SteveF_> zcorpan: there are certain precanned script thingys that are culprits https://github.com/search?q=lang%3D%22en%22+class%3D%22no-js+ie6+lt8%22&ref=searchresults&type=Code&utf8=%E2%9C%93
  377. # [15:44] <zcorpan> SteveF_: yeah
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  402. # [16:22] <annevk> Domenic: apparently some guy from Google is putting some serious effort into WebRTC promises stop energy: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-capture/2014Oct/0003.html
  403. # [16:22] <annevk> slightlyoff: ^
  404. # [16:22] <annevk> JakeA: ^
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  407. # [16:27] <JakeA> Ugh. What's the reason other than waaaa minor effort
  408. # [16:30] <annevk> As far as I can tell that group is broken. We told them they should switch over a year ago.
  409. # [16:31] <mathiasbynens> Q.E.D.
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  412. # [16:34] <astearns_> I guess the PDF is so the line break in the middle of 'e.g.' could be preserved?
  413. # [16:41] <mathiasbynens> annevk: why can’t we just make all relative URLs in HTML-imported documents be relative to that document’s base URL?
  414. # [16:42] <annevk> mathiasbynens: you haven't taken any red pills yet it seems
  415. # [16:42] <annevk> mathiasbynens: how do you determine what a URL is within a <template>, for instance?
  416. # [16:44] <mathiasbynens> annevk: i still don’t understand why `document.importNode` can’t just take care of this
  417. # [16:44] * jgraham wonders which document "that document" is here
  418. # [16:45] <mathiasbynens> jgraham: the one that gets <link rel=import>ed
  419. # [16:45] <annevk> mathiasbynens: why would that be in charge of what is a URL?
  420. # [16:46] <annevk> mathiasbynens: you'll have to get a bit more concrete so I can either learn something or point out an error in your reasoning I'm afraid
  421. # [16:47] <mathiasbynens> annevk: so I’m thinking, why can’t this line https://github.com/mathiasbynens/relative-urls-in-web-components/blob/1b3d159721102d366d575769ab4fa0f3c6341687/packaged-web-component/import-me.html#L17 not somehow make the relative URL in the template an absolute one?
  422. # [16:47] <mathiasbynens> perhaps when `someTemplateElement.content` is accessed
  423. # [16:48] <annevk> mathiasbynens: how does it know what is a relative URL within the template?
  424. # [16:48] <annevk> (you can tell I'm still asking the same questions)
  425. # [16:48] <mathiasbynens> oh right, cause everything is normalized already at that point
  426. # [16:50] <jgraham> It seems pretty weird if the urls are resolved relative to the document that does the import? You end up with different resources depending on where you are importing
  427. # [16:50] <mathiasbynens> jgraham: I agree, but that’s the current behavior
  428. # [16:51] <annevk> So the one thing mentioned in that bug is associating a URL with <template> somehow. However, that complicates base URL processing. But perhaps it is sufficient.
  429. # [16:52] <jgraham> That just doesn't seem sane. What's the use case? Isn't this supposed to provide some sort of encapsulation?
  430. # [16:52] <annevk> However, doing it now might be too late.
  431. # [16:52] <annevk> jgraham: it's not about use cases, it's about it being problematic
  432. # [16:53] <mathiasbynens> annevk: it might still be possible: everyone using web components seems to be using absolute or root-relative URLs for this reason
  433. # [16:53] <jgraham> So I don't understand why it's problematic to resolve the URLs against anything you want, but I'm worried if decisions aren't being made based on what's best for people using the tech
  434. # [16:54] <annevk> mathiasbynens: it's still not clear if that would work though and it would break e.g. with the innerHTML example
  435. # [16:54] <annevk> jgraham: the problem is that all scripts execute in the same global
  436. # [16:55] <annevk> jgraham: and that web components are not really providing any of the promised encapsulation, they're a hack
  437. # [16:56] <annevk> I'm sure everyone involved would love a solution
  438. # [16:57] <jgraham> Oh yeah, the sharing a global thing
  439. # [16:58] <jgraham> Well that's pretyt much insane to start with
  440. # [16:59] <jgraham> I'm pretty sure in 5 years there will be a new generation of people working on the web-platform coming through and giving everyone hell for the design decisions of web components
  441. # [16:59] <annevk> That it breaks scripts is still a really convincing reason to not solve it for the static case
  442. # [16:59] <annevk> I thought we already did that and nobody really listened?
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  444. # [17:06] <tobie> jgraham: I'm pretty sure you won't need to wait 5 years for that.
  445. # [17:07] <jgraham> Well the new generation thing seems to happen about every 5 years
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  447. # [17:09] <darobin> you'll have to wait five years for it to have any momentum
  448. # [17:10] <tobie> Seriously, the message I've heard from devs about Web components right now is pretty much aligned with your fears, jgraham
  449. # [17:11] <tobie> I'm struggling with properly writing out algorithms. When do you nest steps, etc.? Is there a primer on this somehwere?
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  451. # [17:12] <mathiasbynens> because of the global sharing, i guess there’s no way to figure out the absolute URL of an HTML-imported document within that document?
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  457. # [17:20] <jgraham> Yep, and so some people will come up with a — well we've had "principles" and "manifesto" — "Large Scale Web Applications Objectives" document, say, and make a big fuss about how all the people who worked on this before made terrible choices and introduce some new things that will paper over the cracks in a new and differently broken way
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  459. # [17:22] <ManishCloud> Hixie: around?
  460. # [17:23] <ManishCloud> Any reason why the spec here seems to recommend storing a form owner and updating whenever the DOM changes as opposed to calculating it on demand?
  461. # [17:23] <ManishCloud> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/forms.html#form-owner
  462. # [17:23] <ManishCloud> (Is there any reason for the two to not mean the same thing?)
  463. # [17:24] <ManishCloud> AFAICT storing the form owner would be much less performant than calculating on demand
  464. # [17:24] <ManishCloud> https://github.com/servo/servo/issues/3553#issuecomment-57643743
  465. # [17:25] <tobie> jgraham: we seem to be in agreement over something.
  466. # [17:25] <Hixie> ManishCloud: because you can't calculate it
  467. # [17:25] <Hixie> ManishCloud: it can be set e.g. by the parser to values that can't be found from looking at the static state of the dom
  468. # [17:25] * tobie ponders whether that makes him less likable.
  469. # [17:26] <ManishCloud> Hixie: the parser can set it? Hm
  470. # [17:26] <Hixie> jgraham: i'm taking over your bug database maintenance task thing
  471. # [17:26] <Hixie> jgraham: since i'm making the data get baked into the spec itself
  472. # [17:26] <Hixie> jgraham: rather than having it shimmed in at load time
  473. # [17:26] <Hixie> bbiab
  474. # [17:26] <jgraham> Hixie: OK, since I'd forgotten that existed I can't really complain :)
  475. # [17:26] <Hixie> :-)
  476. # [17:26] <mathiasbynens> aha, `document.currentScript.ownerDocument.baseURI` from within a <script> in the imported document, of course
  477. # [17:27] <tobie> Seriously though, my algorithm looks like an ode to goto statements.
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  480. # [17:34] <ManishCloud> Hixie: any example of where the parser spec recommends setting it?
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  484. # [17:36] <jgraham> ManishCloud: click on the definition
  485. # [17:36] <jgraham> Well on the term
  486. # [17:36] <jgraham> i.e. the bold bit at https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#form-element-pointer
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  494. # [17:59] <ManishCloud> jgraham: but that's set only once, right?
  495. # [18:02] * ManishCloud -> Manishearth
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  500. # [18:07] <jgraham> Manishearth: Well each element is only parsed once, sure
  501. # [18:08] <jgraham> You still need to keep the state from parsing somewhere
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  524. # [18:47] <Manishearth> jgraham: keep the state from parsing somewhere?
  525. # [18:48] <Manishearth> I was thinking of a lazy load mechanism that sets the owner in case of broken html, and then can be fetxhed on demand where it looks for changes
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  528. # [18:52] <annevk> So for now WebRTC does not use promises since someone in the call came with the ultimatum that I couldn't propose deprecating the callback-style that exists today for the next three years. (Keep in mind that implementations are still prefixed.)
  529. # [18:52] <annevk> I have no words
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  533. # [19:01] <tantek> three years? wow. who's ship schedule is that?
  534. # [19:02] <tantek> s/who's/whose
  535. # [19:03] <terinjokes> also… this is deprecating them, not removing them
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  552. # [19:38] <Hixie> Manishearth: how would that differ from what the spec says?
  553. # [19:38] <Hixie> annevk: uh, push back? that's absurd, if there's no implementations.
  554. # [19:38] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
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  558. # [19:57] <annevk> Hixie: we ran out of time and everyone dropped and it's unclear what happens next
  559. # [19:57] <annevk> Hixie: teleconferences are so weird
  560. # [20:00] <SimonSapin> annevk: Is there a general principle for when and how many UTF-8 decoding emits replacement characters?
  561. # [20:01] <Hixie> annevk: send an e-mail?
  562. # [20:01] <Hixie> teleconf-gated standards development is so last century
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  565. # [20:07] <tantek> email-gated standards development is so last decade. ;)
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  567. # [20:09] <annevk> SimonSapin: yeah, the spec
  568. # [20:10] <annevk> Hixie: I might
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  572. # [20:13] <SimonSapin> annevk: I mean a principle guiding spec-writing
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  574. # [20:14] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: IIRC one for a bogus sequence (i.e., you start a sequence, it goes bogus -> one); bogus start of sequence -> one
  575. # [20:15] <SimonSapin> thanks gsnedders
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  578. # [20:20] <annevk> SimonSapin: I think Unicode makes a recommendation and I think it so happens that was the correct recommendation
  579. # [20:20] <annevk> SimonSapin: spec makes a note of it
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  581. # [20:20] <SimonSapin> got it, thanks
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  630. # [21:34] <Hixie> tantek: who does e-mail-gated standards development?
  631. # [21:35] <tantek> IETF, WHATWG, parts of W3C
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  634. # [21:36] <Hixie> WHATWG doesn't
  635. # [21:36] <tantek> though at least (plain text) email is better than emailing Word / PPT / PDF docs back and forth.
  636. # [21:36] <Hixie> we do accept feedback by e-mail, but it's not gated on e-mail
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  638. # [21:37] <tantek> Hixie, I seem to remember a lot of docs, wiki, etc. on whatwg all saying to eventually send feedback by email, as that being the one mechanism that's preferred or something.
  639. # [21:37] <Hixie> (it's gated on the spec editor, primarily)
  640. # [21:37] <Hixie> e-mail or bugs, yeah
  641. # [21:37] <tantek> ok that's an important clarification
  642. # [21:37] <tantek> thank you - that helps.
  643. # [21:38] <Hixie> annevk: ok i think the markup is gonna be this:
  644. # [21:38] <Hixie> <div class="status">
  645. # [21:38] <Hixie> <p><strong>Bugs:</strong> <a href="..." title="...">...</a>, <a href="..." title="...">...</a></p>
  646. # [21:38] <Hixie> <p><strong>Support:</strong>
  647. # [21:38] <Hixie> <span class="ff"><span>Firefox</span> <span>44+</span></span>
  648. # [21:38] <Hixie> <span class="ie"><span>IE</span> <span>9+</span></span>
  649. # [21:38] <Hixie> </p>
  650. # [21:38] <Hixie> </div>
  651. # [21:38] <Hixie> let me know if you want something different
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  662. # [22:06] <TabAtkins> annevk: Who sent that ultimatum?
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  666. # [22:12] <boogyman>  Hixie Two questions: 1 - why not use a definition list. <dl class=support><dt>Support</dt><dd class=ff>Firefox <span>44+</span></dd><dd class=VendorAbbr>VendorName <span>SupportSince</span></dt>…</dl> <style>dl.support dd {…} dl.support dd > span {…}</style> 2- if you are going to keep the proposed markup above, I what's the need for the <span> around the Vendor Name? It seems superfluous to me.
  667. # [22:12] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  668. # [22:15] <Hixie> i expect the vendor name to be display:none'ed
  669. # [22:15] <Hixie> a <dl> would make sense, but CSS makes styling <dl>s hard
  670. # [22:15] <SimonSapin> I think I finished the WTF-8 spec! Feedback welcome. (Technical, editorial, …) http://simonsapin.github.io/wtf-8/
  671. # [22:16] <boogyman> Hixie: image replacement?
  672. # [22:17] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Just use <di>!
  673. # [22:17] <Hixie> boogyman: maybe
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  675. # [22:17] <Hixie> TabAtkins: heh
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  677. # [22:17] * TabAtkins has used <di> without shame when he needed it.
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  680. # [22:18] <Hixie> css should just be fixed to handle this case
  681. # [22:18] <Hixie> but anyway
  682. # [22:18] <Hixie> it's not really a dl
  683. # [22:18] <Hixie> it's more a ul
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  685. # [22:18] <boogyman> Can you provide a reference? I am unfamiliar with the deficiency
  686. # [22:19] <Hixie> the deficiency is just that there's no way in CSS to insert an anonymous block around a set of siblings
  687. # [22:19] <Hixie> like <a/><::x><b/><c/></::x><d/>
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  691. # [22:22] <rubys> annevk: ping?
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  704. # [22:51] <rubys> http://intertwingly.net/blog/2014/10/02/WHATWG-URL-vs-IETF-URI
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  706. # [22:54] <tantek> annevk ^^^
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  719. # [23:13] <Sample> Two separate questions I'm considering right now
  720. # [23:15] * Joins: encryptd_fractl (~encryptd_@71-90-29-214.dhcp.ftbg.wi.charter.com)
  721. # [23:16] <Sample> 1) Regarding deprecation of readAsBinaryString (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011OctDec/1497.html) it proposes the removal due to "inefficiency". Wouldn't the real reason have been because it wasn't feasible? bits cannot be decoded to UTF-8 and back to bits without data corruption
  722. # [23:17] <Sample> Just wondering if anyone was around at the time or knows any details beyond that post
  723. # [23:19] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@37.203.209.18) (Quit: Leaving.)
  724. # [23:20] <Sample> my other question is 2) Is "query encoding" as defined by the HTML or URL spec identical to x-www-form-urlencoded?
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  729. # [23:24] <Sample> question 2 arises from statements like: Align RFC 3986 and RFC 3987 with contemporary implementations and obsolete them in the process. (E.g. spaces, other "illegal" code points, query encoding, equality, canonicalization, are all concepts not entirely shared, or defined.)
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  732. # [23:27] <Hixie> not sure what you mean by #2
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  734. # [23:28] <Sample> sorry for being unclear =) My question is if there's character restrictions present in the "query" portion of a URL that are not present in x-www-form-urlencoded
  735. # [23:29] <Hixie> are there character restrictions in x-www-form-urlencoded?
  736. # [23:29] <Hixie> i don't know that we really define conformance criteria for that format
  737. # [23:29] <Hixie> we define serialisation and parsing rules, but...
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  740. # [23:30] <Sample> I'm admittedly not clear what the MIME type means when it suggests "urlencoded". I didn't think x-www-form-urlencoded percent-encoded characters
  741. # [23:30] <Sample> I guess I need to take a look at some test requests
  742. # [23:31] <Domenic> If I am understanding you correctly, the answer is: the spec for x-www-form-urlencoded is either nonexistant or underspecified, so the URL standard obsoletes it, at least in the cases we care about (usage of that format in URLs)
  743. # [23:32] * Joins: espadrine (~espadrine@AMontsouris-158-1-21-75.w92-128.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  744. # [23:32] <Hixie> url.spec.whatwg.org and html.spec.whatwg.org both define x-www-form-urlencoded, but neither define a conformance criteria
  745. # [23:32] <Hixie> just parse and serialise algorithms
  746. # [23:32] <Hixie> (aka encode/decode)
  747. # [23:32] <Sample> Yeah sorry for being unclear, I'm half confused myself. I'm presuming that a URL query and x-www-form-urlencoded are the same format
  748. # [23:33] <Domenic> i think part of the disconnect is that talking about a "format" is not generally that interesting compared to talking about encode/decode algorithms
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  750. # [23:34] <Hixie> Sample: i think neither "a URL query" nor "the x-www-form-urlencoded format" are well-defined terms
  751. # [23:34] <Hixie> Sample: which makes the discussion hard to follow :-)
  752. # [23:34] <Sample> Hixie: haha okay
  753. # [23:35] <Sample> I just became curious if the payload constructed via a GET ampersand-delimited percent-encoded (urlencoded) name=value pair is exactly identical to the payload of a forms x-www-form-urlencoded
  754. # [23:37] <Sample> looks as if they are
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  756. # [23:37] <Hixie> not sure what you mean by "payload constructed via a GET ampersand-delimited percent-encoded (urlencoded) name=value pair"
  757. # [23:37] <Hixie> form submission uses https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#application/x-www-form-urlencoded-encoding-algorithm
  758. # [23:39] <Hixie> and then passes it to https://url.spec.whatwg.org/#serializing as the query component
  759. # [23:39] <Sample> is the same encoding defined there required for constructing a URL "query" as defined by something like: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-3.4
  760. # [23:39] <Hixie> that RFC is dead.
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  762. # [23:39] <Sample> maybe that question uses better nomenclature
  763. # [23:39] <Sample> ah
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  765. # [23:39] <Hixie> (at least as far as #whatwg is concerned)
  766. # [23:39] <Hixie> url.spec.whatwg.org obsoletes it
  767. # [23:40] <Sample> and you define that same section as "A URL's query is either null or a string holding data. It is initially null."
  768. # [23:40] <Sample> which is rather vague =)
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  770. # [23:41] <Hixie> what's the actual question you're trying to answer?
  771. # [23:42] <Sample> Yes, is a URL query request and an x-www-form-urlencoded payload the same data format
  772. # [23:43] <Sample> they appear to be. ampersand delimited, equals delimited, urlencoded name value pairs
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  774. # [23:45] <Hixie> The part after the ? and before the # in a URL is an opaque string, whose meaning is only defined by the server.
  775. # [23:45] <Sample> not standardized?
  776. # [23:45] <Hixie> it's standardised in the same way that the "path" part is standardised
  777. # [23:46] <Hixie> it's an opaque string with meaning defined by the server
  778. # [23:46] <Sample> huh... weird
  779. # [23:46] <Sample> thanks
  780. # [23:46] <Hixie> form submission assumes that the server expects the x-www-form-urlencoded part to be in the format generated by https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#application/x-www-form-urlencoded-encoding-algorithm
  781. # [23:46] <Hixie> er, the query part
  782. # [23:46] <Hixie> the part between ? and #
  783. # [23:46] <Hixie> so when you do form submission from a browser, you end up seeing the output of the https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#application/x-www-form-urlencoded-encoding-algorithm in the query component
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  785. # [23:47] <Sample> so you could put a CSV encoding between the ? and the # and that's totally fine?
  786. # [23:47] <SimonSapin> Hixie, annevk: https://url.spec.whatwg.org/#application/x-www-form-urlencoded looks identical to https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#url-encoded-form-data . Should one of them use the other?
  787. # [23:47] <Hixie> Sample: if the server expects it, sure
  788. # [23:47] <Sample> ?first,last,score\njohn,doe,98#
  789. # [23:47] <Sample> strange
  790. # [23:47] <Sample> interesting
  791. # [23:48] <Sample> most servers would be rather confused I imagine
  792. # [23:48] <Hixie> Sample: consider, e.g.: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/canvas/?c.clearRect(0%2C%200%2C%20640%2C%20480)%3B%0Ac.fillStyle%20%3D%20%27green%27%3B%0Ac.fillRect(10%2C10%2C200%2C200)%3B%0A
  793. # [23:48] <Hixie> that file takes JavaScript snippets in the query and evaluates them
  794. # [23:49] <Sample> looks like quite the XSS vector =D
  795. # [23:49] <Hixie> it's just up to the server to decide how to interpret it
  796. # [23:49] <Hixie> yes, if that server had anything interesting it would be
  797. # [23:49] <Sample> well that's all very interesting, thanks
  798. # [23:49] <Hixie> the path component is the same. it's up to the server to know how to parse it
  799. # [23:50] <sicking> annevk: awake?
  800. # [23:50] <Sample> so we can say "most servers expect x-www-url-encoded payload via the URL query"
  801. # [23:50] <Hixie> e.g. http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1
  802. # [23:50] <Sample> in the same way we can say "most servers expect form-data to come via application/x-www-form-urlencoded"
  803. # [23:50] <Hixie> Sample: most servers expect nothing in the query and ignore it.
  804. # [23:51] <Hixie> (in the url i gave above, the /saved/1 part is parsed by the script at http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer -- there's no /saved/ directory or anything)
  805. # [23:51] <Hixie> (in fact you can go to http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=1 and it does the same thing)
  806. # [23:54] <Sample> Hixie: apache which is probably the most common webserver I think could be said to "expect" a data format within the URL Query to parse a GET parameter
  807. # [23:54] <Sample> that format I guess being x-www-form-urlencoded
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  812. # [23:54] <Sample> perhaps I'm wrong and the server is indifferent. maybe this "GET" notion is handled on backend code exclusively
  813. # [23:54] <Sample> I just figured apache had some notion or expectation of it
  814. # [23:56] <Sample> maybe the basis of the confusion I'm procuding here is that I had the expectation that a URL query is in a certain format and that webservers parse that expected format somehow
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  816. # [23:57] <Hixie> Sample: apache doesn't parse the query component at all as far as i know. maybe for directory listings.
  817. # [23:57] <Sample> since you generally ever only see key=value ampersand delimited URL queries (except in your example obviously)
  818. # [23:57] <Sample> this was enlightening though, thanks
  819. # [23:57] <Hixie> you generally see key=value&key=value because that's what forms submit
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  821. # Session Close: Fri Oct 03 00:00:00 2014

The end :)