/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-10-13 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  74. # [05:22] <MikeSmith> tripu: all *.w3.org domains seem to be unreachable right now
  75. # [05:25] <MikeSmith> tripu: including mail services, so it's not possible even to send mail to sysreq to alert anybody
  76. # [05:25] <MikeSmith> tripu: ...and now it seems to be back
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  80. # [06:05] <sicking> v
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  98. # [07:36] <cs0sf_> good documentation , is there html book version also available?
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  147. # [10:29] <blue-grapes> Hello guys, anybody here?
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  150. # [10:31] <Ms2ger> Nope
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  160. # [10:35] <blue-grapes> Anybody has idea on how to code in tables through this layout? http://postimg.org/image/nireggyvh/
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  230. # [12:27] <JakeA> annevk: am in the office for once, if there's anything I should be looking at (going to go through inbox & github otherwise)
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  233. # [12:31] <annevk> JakeA: the client/context bug; the 304 handling bug
  234. # [12:31] <JakeA> annevk: just replied to the former, will look at the latter now
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  256. # [13:17] <annevk> JakeA: I'm looking into adding a fromCache member to responses
  257. # [13:18] <annevk> JakeA: perhaps call it "cache state"
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  259. # [13:18] <annevk> JakeA: none / local / validated / partial
  260. # [13:19] <annevk> JakeA: not sure if we need something for synthetic responses
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  265. # [13:26] <annevk> Anyone here with recent knowledge on WebVTT? I'm asked to ignore certain lines in the header of files, but it seems sort of weird to me: https://github.com/annevk/webvtt/pull/6
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  272. # [13:42] <jgraham> Wow I missed the whole W3C Dev Campus thing
  273. # [13:43] <jgraham> It offers to "get rid of your web deficiencies"
  274. # [13:44] <jgraham> Sorry s/web/Web/
  275. # [13:45] <hallvors> Spec interpretation question coming up - bear with me ..
  276. # [13:46] <annevk> Learning fast jgraham!
  277. # [13:46] <hallvors> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/browsers.html#javascript-protocol says:
  278. # [13:46] <hallvors> 10. Let address be the address of the active document of the browsing context being navigated.
  279. # [13:46] <hallvors> If you're inserting <IFRAME src="javascript:..."> into a document, what is "the active document of the browsing context being navigated"?
  280. # [13:46] <annevk> hallvors: <iframe> is initially about:blank; so the document generated by that
  281. # [13:47] <annevk> jgraham: although I would spell it with a small w
  282. # [13:47] <hallvors> OK - that's what I think Chrome does
  283. # [13:47] <hallvors> but it's not clear to me from https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/embedded-content.html#process-the-iframe-attributes
  284. # [13:47] <annevk> jgraham: the whole, there's only one of them so we need to use uppercase is a weird rule
  285. # [13:47] <annevk> hallvors: I think that's because that's not where it starts
  286. # [13:47] <annevk> hallvors: first the <iframe> is created
  287. # [13:48] <hallvors> is the "resolve" part not successful for javascript: ?
  288. # [13:48] <hallvors> hm..
  289. # [13:48] <annevk> hallvors: 'When an iframe element is inserted into a document that has a browsing context, the user agent must create a nested browsing context, and then process the iframe attributes for the "first time".'
  290. # [13:48] <annevk> hallvors: create a nested browsing context is key here
  291. # [13:48] <hallvors> OK - thanks, I'll go back and look :)
  292. # [13:48] <annevk> hallvors: you could file a bug on Hixie not linking "create"
  293. # [13:48] <jgraham> annevk: The Guardian style guide has a small "w". I don't think there's a special rule about singletons
  294. # [13:49] <annevk> jgraham: hsivonen told me that when I spelled internet lowercase
  295. # [13:49] <annevk> jgraham: or maybe it was Hixie
  296. # [13:49] <jgraham> annevk: The Guardian disagrees with him on that too
  297. # [13:49] <jgraham> All these rules are basically made up
  298. # [13:49] <annevk> jgraham: good, I agree with The Guardian then :p
  299. # [13:50] <annevk> hallvors: I'll file a bug on linking create
  300. # [13:50] <hallvors> thx
  301. # [13:51] <jgraham> (fwiw Chicago manual of style has web and Internet
  302. # [13:51] <annevk> hallvors: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27029
  303. # [13:51] <annevk> jgraham: we better set up howdoyouspellwebandinternet.com
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  307. # [13:53] <hallvors> so, naturally there is a follow-up question: in "process the IFRAME attributes" prose, there's this:
  308. # [13:53] <hallvors> "If there exists an ancestor browsing context whose active document's address, ignoring fragment identifiers, is equal to url, then abort these steps."
  309. # [13:53] <hallvors> embedding a src=javascript: IFRAME inside a src=javascript: IFRAME will now fail
  310. # [13:53] <hallvors> because presumably this step will prevent embedding about:blank inside about:blank ?
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  312. # [13:54] <annevk> hallvors: I think it prevents nesting e.g. http://example/test into http://example/test, no?
  313. # [13:54] <hallvors> yes, that's the intention
  314. # [13:55] <hallvors> but given that the "address" of javascript:'string of html' documents is now about:blank - we'll end up here, right?
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  316. # [13:56] <hallvors> (context - FYI - is me trying to figure out if aligning with HTML5 would fix Gecko bug 836567)
  317. # [13:57] <hallvors> Chrome does set URL to about:blank, but does not prevent nesting. But I think if it was implementing this algorithm to the t, it would
  318. # [13:57] <hallvors> (So I think this step perhaps needs an exception for about:blank or something)
  319. # [13:58] <hallvors> (and perhaps add a general "don't nest browsing contexts deeper than you'd like to" step instead)
  320. # [13:58] <annevk> hallvors: no, about:blank is the <iframe>'s document, not its ancestor
  321. # [13:58] <hallvors> annevk: I'm looking at an IFRAME nested *inside* an IFRAME
  322. # [13:59] <hallvors> so there certainly is an ancestor with the address about:blank
  323. # [13:59] <hallvors> (see TC in bugzilla)
  324. # [14:02] <annevk> Okay, I see what you're saying
  325. # [14:02] <annevk> hallvors: did you point to the bug already?
  326. # [14:02] <hallvors> 836567
  327. # [14:03] <hallvors> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=836567
  328. # [14:05] <annevk> hallvors: "If there exists an ancestor browsing context whose active document's address, ignoring fragment identifiers, is equal to url, then abort these steps." at this point /url/ is the javascript URL, no?
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  330. # [14:05] <annevk> hallvors: how could that be equal to an ancestor that has about:blank as URL?
  331. # [14:06] <hallvors> no, per what you just said above URL is about:blank - because that's the "address of the active document of the browsing context being navigated" which we're supposed to use as the "override URL" of the document
  332. # [14:06] <hallvors> hm..
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  334. # [14:06] <hallvors> no, you may be right
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  337. # [14:10] <hallvors> that's what I was missing ;).
  338. # [14:10] <hallvors> Now, what happens (or not) if you load about:blank URLs inside src:javascript: IFRAMEs? It just "falls back" to the document the browsing context was created with - right?
  339. # [14:13] <annevk> hallvors: what do you mean by load?
  340. # [14:13] <hallvors> s/load/embed an IFRAME loading
  341. # [14:14] <annevk> that new <iframe> will get its own document, yes
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  357. # [14:27] <hallvors> now, if we hit "If there exists an ancestor browsing context whose active document's address, ignoring fragment identifiers, is equal to url, then abort these steps" and this algorithm is aborted - does HTML5 still require firing a load event for that IFRAME?
  358. # [14:28] <hallvors> yes - happens further down "When a Document in an iframe is marked as completely loaded, the user agent must run the iframe load event steps in parallel."
  359. # [14:29] <hallvors> it's amusing that Chrome supports giving about:blank a query string, so I can nest lots of about:blank IFRAMEs :)
  360. # [14:29] <hallvors> but only in Chrome - in other browsers that's a load failure..
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  363. # [14:33] <annevk> per the URL spec that ought to work
  364. # [14:33] <annevk> well, Fetch spec, sorry
  365. # [14:34] <annevk> see https://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#basic-fetch (it does not check for query being null)
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  369. # [14:46] <JakeA> annevk: of the cacheMode stuff, what dictates if I get a 304 back or not?
  370. # [14:47] <annevk> JakeA: the mode?
  371. # [14:48] <JakeA> annevk: I'm reading https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/412#issuecomment-58646963 and it's unclear which result in me getting back the 304. It says some explicitly don't, but not sure about the others
  372. # [14:49] <annevk> JakeA: they would
  373. # [14:49] <JakeA> annevk: I mean, is the only way for me to get a 304 response is to set if- headers myself?
  374. # [14:49] <annevk> JakeA: that depends on the server
  375. # [14:50] <JakeA> annevk: If I don't set If- headers manually, what are the conditions for getting a 304 response object back as a result of calling fetch(url)?
  376. # [14:50] <annevk> JakeA: I'm not sure what you mean, surely that depends on the server
  377. # [14:52] <JakeA> annevk: At the moment, with XHR, I can only get access to a 304 response if I set "If-" headers myself. Otherwise it returns the cached entry. Has this changed?
  378. # [14:52] <annevk> JakeA: not if cache mode is default
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  380. # [14:53] <JakeA> annevk: ok, so assuming I'm *not* setting "If-" headers myself, and the server returns a 304, what are the conditions for me getting that 304 response in script?
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  382. # [14:54] <annevk> JakeA: mode needs to be bypass or reload
  383. # [14:54] <annevk> JakeA: or force cache I suppose, though that'd be a bit weird
  384. # [15:07] <JakeA> annevk: What happens to my "If-" headers if I set the mode to be "revalidate"?
  385. # [15:08] <annevk> JakeA: I'm not sure
  386. # [15:08] <annevk> JakeA: should ask mayhemer I guess
  387. # [15:08] <annevk> JakeA: will you?
  388. # [15:08] <JakeA> annevk: My gut says that mode gets set to "bypass"
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  390. # [15:09] <JakeA> yeah, will ask
  391. # [15:09] <annevk> not opposed, but he didn't seem to like that behavior
  392. # [15:09] <JakeA> hm, but we're already doing that for "default"
  393. # [15:10] <annevk> yes
  394. # [15:10] <annevk> this cache stuff is hard, and we haven't even dug down into everything
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  396. # [15:10] <annevk> gave up on figuring out how to deal with partial content
  397. # [15:11] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, I've been wondering what to do if you get a fetch event with a range, and you respond with something from the cache
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  400. # [15:19] <annevk> JakeA: if reply with a 200 and the full resource it's okay
  401. # [15:19] <annevk> you*
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  403. # [15:20] <annevk> JakeA: seems like you need to reply with a 206 and a range from the cache otherwise
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  405. # [15:20] <annevk> JakeA: not sure if the cache supports slicing?
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  408. # [15:24] <JakeA> annevk: nope. But as you say, a 200 response would do the right thing.
  409. # [15:27] <annevk> JakeA: still seems like something we should support down the road
  410. # [15:27] <JakeA> annevk: oh agreed
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  433. # [16:30] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: validator.nu and html5.validator.nu still 502
  434. # [16:30] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: hoping it's not something I broke somehow (but don't know how it could be if you've not redeployed recently)
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  437. # [16:34] <zcorpan> annevk: is halting on error in a url something that anyone has asked for?
  438. # [16:35] <annevk> zcorpan: some people did, not sure how strong the request was though
  439. # [16:35] <annevk> zcorpan: feel free to argue against it, haven't really made up my mind
  440. # [16:37] <zcorpan> annevk: are the requests public?
  441. # [16:37] <annevk> zcorpan: might be in some old thread somewhere
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  479. # [18:07] <jgraham> erlehmann: Is that the kind of "broke" where they are suddenly without a "browsers" table in their db, or the kind of "broke" where the page formatting looks wrong for that one load
  480. # [18:07] <jgraham> ?
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  482. # [18:08] <jgraham> (I don't really think it's a security issue either way since it would still be a site-controlled value)
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  484. # [18:09] <erlehmann> jgraham it is the kind of broke where there is an SQL injection possible if you know how the table is named
  485. # [18:10] <erlehmann> i think xss is not an issue
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  487. # [18:10] <erlehmann> jgraham enough stats package do not seem to sanitize the UA string that I would consider it dangerous to let arbitrary js set it to a value.
  488. # [18:11] <jgraham> From the point of view of the site, the js is supposed to be more trusted than the user, who can already set the value
  489. # [18:11] <jgraham> Well I guess Cross-Origin requests are a bit different
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  519. # [19:18] <annevk> Hixie: if "environment settings object" has a 1:1 with its global object, why are they distinct?
  520. # [19:19] <Hixie> they are distinct because we need something to hook all the configuration of an environment in. That there are parts of it that have a 1:1 mapping seems irrelevant.
  521. # [19:20] <Hixie> i mean, why do we have a Location object? it has a 1:1 mapping with a Window object
  522. # [19:20] <Hixie> why do we have both a parsed URL and a serialised URL? they have a 1:1 mapping too
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  524. # [19:26] <annevk> Not sure about that last one, but fair enough I guess...
  525. # [19:27] <annevk> Hixie: would it work if I just renamed "client" to "environment" and made its value an environment settings object?
  526. # [19:29] <annevk> Hixie: ok if I file a bug asking for a slightly more explicit description of the members? E.g. whether https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/webappapis.html#responsible-document is null in a worker environment?
  527. # [19:30] <annevk> Hixie: that is, type descriptions for the members of an environment settings object would be nice, probably mostly whether they can be null
  528. # [19:32] <annevk> Hmm, an intent to implement on blink with a TR/ URL
  529. # [19:32] <annevk> blink-dev*
  530. # [19:32] <Domenic> yeah, saw that...
  531. # [19:33] <annevk> Domenic: writing a Twitter bit is pretty easy btw
  532. # [19:33] <annevk> Twitter bot
  533. # [19:33] <annevk> Although keeping it alive is not...
  534. # [19:33] <Domenic> annevk: it needs to actively be scanning for people tweeting /TR/ URLs though
  535. # [19:33] <Domenic> annevk: that said I probably could use one for streams
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  537. # [19:34] <Domenic> Also I just ordered a bunch of WHATWG logo stickers so if anyone sees me in person ask and they're yours
  538. # [19:34] <annevk> I once created https://twitter.com/w3cdrm but that didn't really follow the tweets of everyone
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  540. # [19:35] <Domenic> haha
  541. # [19:35] <annevk> But if they have an API for getting everyone's tweets it should be relatively straightforward
  542. # [19:35] <Domenic> yeah should be a fun side project
  543. # [19:35] <annevk> Through https://script.google.com/ you can do it in JavaScript and no need to host anything yourself
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  550. # [19:36] <annevk> Domenic: I tried sharing the code with you
  551. # [19:37] <annevk> Domenic: should be easy enough to adjust
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  556. # [19:48] <Hixie> annevk: you can even leave it named client, :-)
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  559. # [19:49] <Hixie> annevk: the responsible document is not null in workers
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  564. # [19:52] <annevk> Hixie: oh, even for shared workers?
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  575. # [20:10] <Hixie> annevk: yeah. i think it might never be used though.
  576. # [20:10] <annevk> Might be nice if we could recast any use in workers in terms of the settings object instead
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  579. # [20:11] <Hixie> doesn't HTML already do that?
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  583. # [20:18] <JonathanNeal> does anyone remember the recommended way to use blockquote? I remember there being a html5 doctor article about it, but then i remember a discussion that argued it should be used another way.
  584. # [20:19] <JonathanNeal> This was an older discussion, but I remember something about using <footer> or something.
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  587. # [20:25] <annevk> Hixie: I'll study it, thanks for the help thus far
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  589. # [20:26] <boogyman> JonathanNeal: <blockquote><some block level element>…</element></blockquote>
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  620. # [21:39] <say2joe> JonathanNeal: you may be thinking about using footer in terms of the cite attribute … http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/grouping-content.html#the-blockquote-element
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  622. # [21:44] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  623. # [21:54] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: <blockquote></blockquote><p><cite></cite><p> or some such
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  625. # [21:55] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: depending on what you want exactly
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  633. # [22:12] <JonathanNeal> Thanks, Hixie.
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  685. # Session Close: Tue Oct 14 00:00:00 2014

The end :)