/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-10-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Oct 17 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  12. # [00:23] <MikeSmith> can anybody think of a good reason to ever use a value for tabindex other than 0 or -1? https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27076
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  14. # [00:25] <Hixie> when the controls aren't in DOM order?
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  16. # [00:27] <Hixie> consider e.g. a paragraph with two form controls in it, and a float in the middle, with controls in it as well. You would want to navigate the controls in the paragraph, then those in the float, then those in the next paragraph, probably.
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  18. # [00:29] <MikeSmith> Hixie: ok, but Marco's comment is that in practice authors who put values other than 0 or -1 are almost always (or always even) misusing it based on misunderstanding
  19. # [00:30] <MikeSmith> Hixie: so it would be good to have some actual data
  20. # [00:30] <Hixie> by that reasoning, we should drop most of HTML
  21. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> Hixie: That's the logic behind dropping longdesc. ^_^
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  23. # [00:31] <Hixie> not quite
  24. # [00:32] <Hixie> for longdesc the logic is that implementing it is bad for accessibility so it should be dropped in implementations
  25. # [00:32] <Hixie> MikeSmith wasn't suggesting dropping support for tabindex>1, just making them non-conforming
  26. # [00:33] <MikeSmith> Hixie: well short of that we can do the obsolete-but-conforming thing and I can actually have the correspnding validator warning for it include a link to the bug. i.e., in the way we talked about before for nested footnotes (I think it was that one, right?)
  27. # [00:33] <MikeSmith> yeah, non-conforming or obsolete-but-conforming
  28. # [00:33] <Hixie> what would the warning be? "If you are actually trying to put controls in a different tab order than the default, let us know so we don't drop support for this feature"?
  29. # [00:33] <MikeSmith> script@type is a related kind of case I guess
  30. # [00:34] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah, seriously
  31. # [00:34] <MikeSmith> I think it would be good to start using the validator to collect actual feedback for cases like this
  32. # [00:34] <Hixie> i don't know how you'd actually find out if people are using this correctly
  33. # [00:34] <Hixie> if they are, you'd never hear of it
  34. # [00:34] <Hixie> it'd just work
  35. # [00:34] <Hixie> and you'd never know the DOM didn't match rendering order
  36. # [00:36] <MikeSmith> dunno either, just suggesting a possible resolution for that bug
  37. # [00:37] <MikeSmith> Hixie: ah i get your point -- as an end user, you wouldn't know
  38. # [00:37] <Hixie> (this differs from longdesc, for example, because with longdesc you can programmatically detect the vast majority of bad uses, and compared to the good uses, they're the vast majority of all uses)
  39. # [00:39] <MikeSmith> so Marco's statement there about only seeing it misused is more about him only noticing the cases where it's misued byt not noticing the cases where values>1 are used properly, because things just work as expected for him in those cases
  40. # [00:39] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah (about comparison to checking longdesc misuse) I see now
  41. # [00:40] * MikeSmith will add another comment to the bug
  42. # [00:41] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: what non-standard attribute names does bikeshed .bs markup use. Is there a list somewhere?
  43. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: All of its output attributes are data-*
  44. # [00:41] <MikeSmith> oh
  45. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> It only uses non-standard ones in its input format.
  46. # [00:41] <MikeSmith> ah yeah that's what I meant
  47. # [00:41] <MikeSmith> the input format
  48. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> Ah, no, there's no list. Why?
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  50. # [00:42] <MikeSmith> because I can imagine that is sometimes might be useful to check the input files to find errors
  51. # [00:42] <MikeSmith> check with the validator
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  53. # [00:43] <MikeSmith> and one of things I'm thinking about is, adding some standard filtering mechanism to allow users to specify certain errors to ignore
  54. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> Bikeshed's input format isn't really HTML.
  55. # [00:43] <MikeSmith> ah ok
  56. # [00:44] <MikeSmith> nm then
  57. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> And it uses a bunch of shorthands that use angle brackets.
  58. # [00:44] <MikeSmith> ah
  59. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> <<foo>>, for example.
  60. # [00:44] <MikeSmith> I see yeah
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  65. # [00:57] <MikeSmith> oh wow Daniel Buchner's at Target
  66. # [00:57] <MikeSmith> and they have a github repo and stuff
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  73. # [01:24] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: bikeshed should have an option for suppression section numbers
  74. # [01:24] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Put a class="no-num" on the heading.
  75. # [01:24] <TabAtkins> (Documented. ^_^)
  76. # [01:24] <MikeSmith> yeah I mean not numbering any at all
  77. # [01:25] <TabAtkins> Oh. Interesting. Why?
  78. # [01:25] <MikeSmith> the section numbers change anyway, nobody pays attention to them
  79. # [01:26] <MikeSmith> just an idea anyway. I don't feel strongly about it
  80. # [01:26] <TabAtkins> I'll wait until someone actually wants to publish a spec like that. ^_^
  81. # [01:26] <MikeSmith> yeah
  82. # [01:27] <TabAtkins> Section numbers dont' change that often, they're useful in the short term even if they do change, and Bikeshed uses them for attractive section references which carry over well to print.
  83. # [01:27] <MikeSmith> ah print yes
  84. # [01:27] <MikeSmith> and also they do convey information about the depth of the section
  85. # [01:27] <TabAtkins> Not a priority, but it's nice when I can do something nice for printed specs. ^_^
  86. # [01:27] <MikeSmith> yeah
  87. # [01:28] <MikeSmith> so btw does bikeshed have problems with some unicode chars?
  88. # [01:28] <TabAtkins> It shouldn't, but it's possible there are spots where I'm still messing up. If so, please report with a repro.
  89. # [01:28] <MikeSmith> ok
  90. # [01:28] <TabAtkins> Ideally a stripped down .bs file that causes the error.
  91. # [01:28] <TabAtkins> But a full file with a pointer to what's wrong works too.
  92. # [01:29] <TabAtkins> (I put a lot of effort into making it unicode-clean, but I've also changed a lot since then, and it's very possible that errors have crept in since then.)
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  96. # [01:32] <MikeSmith> I plan to start using bikeshed for some stuff soon
  97. # [01:34] <TabAtkins> Cool!
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  121. # [02:32] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Curious, what are you planning to write with Bikeshed?
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  127. # [02:53] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: reference docs for HTML elements
  128. # [02:53] <TabAtkins> ah, kk
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  130. # [02:54] <TabAtkins> Note that Bikeshed does have an "elementdef" shorthand, which is... not currently documented. I'll fix that.
  131. # [02:54] <MikeSmith> oh cool
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  211. # [08:32] <jamesr__> TabAtkins: mystery feature is best feature
  212. # [08:34] <TabAtkins> jamesr__: http://memegenerator.net/instance/55380835
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  217. # [08:45] <jamesr__> wow such ads
  218. # [08:45] <jamesr__> so slow load
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  241. # [09:42] <annevk> http://www.dreamhoststatus.com/2014/10/16/https-web-site-owners-ssl-v-3-disablement/
  242. # [09:42] <annevk> "(Remember, everything less than TLS 1.2 with an AEAD mode is cryptographically broken.)" https://www.imperialviolet.org/2014/10/14/poodle.html
  243. # [09:43] <annevk> Anyone know anything about that?
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  245. # [09:44] <annevk> MikeSmith: I wonder how much could be solved if we had a way to indicate a tabgroup
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  254. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> annevk: dunnoーI've not spent enough time looking at to have an informed view on it. But please post to that bug if you have thoughts.
  255. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> annevk: btw I'm looking into getting the w3c validator working over TLS. I'm told it should be relatively easy. I guess it's just a matter of somebody making time to do it
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  257. # [10:29] <annevk> MikeSmith: hsivonen mentioned some issues, but I'm not sure what they were
  258. # [10:30] <annevk> MikeSmith: well, I don't remember
  259. # [10:30] <annevk> MikeSmith: but yeah, if you have full control over the server it should be quite easy
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  268. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah I don't know what issues hsivonen was thinking about but as far as I can tell, with the was W3C systems handle the TLS termination, deploying under TLS in the W3C environment doesn't require me to do anything different at all with the vnu instances. It should should work.
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  273. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> annevk: in other news, do you have any opinion on what we should do about document-conformance requirements for meta@http-equiv=X-UA-Compatible
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  276. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> one option is to just put it into the spec and make it valid. Another is to put it into the spec and make it required
  277. # [10:42] <annevk> MikeSmith: won't it wither and die with all older IE versions?
  278. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> one would hope. But we don't seem to be there yet
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  280. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> in the mean time, most boilerplate things like bootstrap include it
  281. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> s/most/all
  282. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> so the spec is currently at odds with reality on this
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  284. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> in practical terms for me, it means the validator is emitting an error for it that is just wasting developers' time, because they're not going to remove it from their documents.
  285. # [10:46] <annevk> MikeSmith: I think at the very least that the proposal to emit an error for developers that have not included it, would also be wasting time
  286. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> and sorta worse, downstream tools that embed the validator have to add code to filter out that error
  287. # [10:47] <annevk> MikeSmith: but I'm okay with making cruft conforming, we're allowing <br/> after all
  288. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> annevk: so yeah point taken and that suggests we should make it valid but optional
  289. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> annevk: ok what about meta@name=viewport
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  291. # [10:51] <annevk> MikeSmith: same opinion
  292. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> hai
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  311. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> annevk: fyi just filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27091 about meta@http-equiv=X-UA-Compatible
  312. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ↑
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  314. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> reading https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Talk:PragmaExtensions I see that Hixie considers this to be a bug in the IANA registry and not really a bug in the spec. Given that, if I make the validator not report an error for it, that's not a wilful violation of the HTML spec, it's just resigning ourselves to the fact that the IANA registration process is broken
  315. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: given that, would you be OK with me going ahead and changing the vnu schema to allow meta@http-equiv=X-UA-Compatible now
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  319. # [11:41] <MikeSmith> for those who appreciate irony, the page at https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/PragmaExtensions which says that meta@http-equiv=X-UA-Compatible is not valid itself has <meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=EDGE" />
  320. # [11:41] <MikeSmith> view-source:https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/PragmaExtensions
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  325. # [11:50] <annevk> MikeSmith: I find the idea that http-equiv is actually equivalent to HTTP headers somewhat absurd
  326. # [11:50] <annevk> MikeSmith: not sure why Hixie maintains that point of view
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  328. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> I think he's just trying to impose some reasoning on it
  329. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> but yeah I guess it's really just a fiction
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  334. # [12:07] <gsnedders> does anyone know how ePub readers parse XHTML de facto? Because AFAICT they all support non-WF content
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  338. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: They just just use webkit and I've been told it just goes through the text/html parser in webkit not the XML parser
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  341. # [12:14] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: the HTML5 parser in WebKit? Because AIUI stuff like <script /> is handled
  342. # [12:15] <gsnedders> (which IIRC the old WebKit parser handled through reparsing?)
  343. # [12:15] <MikeSmith> hmm maybe they are using the old parser then
  344. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> and if so they can't change it now I guess ,if they have ebooks out in the wild with stuff like <script />
  345. # [12:16] <gsnedders> Calibre currently uses a patched version of html5lib (except where it's packaged in distros like arch which just use upstream html5lib and probably break stuff…)
  346. # [12:17] <MikeSmith> the epub people seem to have dug themselves into a lot of holes -- against advice from others
  347. # [12:17] <gsnedders> totally
  348. # [12:18] <MikeSmith> I think hsivonen might know something about the implementation details on particular readers -- based on research he did a couple years back
  349. # [12:18] <MikeSmith> but maybe he didn't go too deep into the details, I dunno
  350. # [12:18] <gsnedders> no JS makes testing tiresome, le sigh
  351. # [12:18] <gsnedders> (at least in most readers)
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  353. # [12:19] <MikeSmith> they
  354. # [12:20] <MikeSmith> we just need to move ebooks to the web where they belong and where the rest of the world's information content is
  355. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> all of these problems they have arise for requiring users to download and install some separate "reading system" application that users don't want to install to begin with
  356. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> it's fundamentally all user-hostile
  357. # [12:22] <gsnedders> the problem is all getting content to be licensed DRM-free in the first place
  358. # [12:24] <gsnedders> Google Play gets away with doing it all in browser with a page or so of buffering
  359. # [12:24] <gsnedders> but never actually opens the whole thing
  360. # [12:24] <gsnedders> and makes it incredibly user-hostile to copy anything
  361. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> yep
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  363. # [12:27] <MikeSmith> the prevent-users-from-copying user hostility just naturally follows from the fundamental flawed foundation of the whole thing
  364. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> we need a kickstarter-like thing for book authors
  365. # [12:31] <gsnedders> tbf, people were trying to prevent copying stuff frm the web 15 years ago
  366. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> oh they still are
  367. # [12:31] <gsnedders> at least the book industry isn't so hellbent on DRM as the movie industry
  368. # [12:31] <gsnedders> oh, I'm not saying that — I'm just saying it's not a new phenomom
  369. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> ok
  370. # [12:33] <MikeSmith> anyway the core problem here is publishers. The Web doesn't need "publishers", and books don't need publishers either
  371. # [12:33] <jgraham> They often do need marketing departments
  372. # [12:34] <jgraham> Which is about 90% of the function of a publisher
  373. # [12:34] <MikeSmith> books should be free but we should have a better way to be able to pay authors to write them
  374. # [12:34] <MikeSmith> the web is its own marketing department
  375. # [12:34] <MikeSmith> the web already has discoverability
  376. # [12:35] <MikeSmith> and good search engines
  377. # [12:35] <MikeSmith> and other good ways to raise visibility of quality content
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  379. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> and authors can get together to create their own branded web presenses together without relying on some sugar-daddy publisher where they're just some insignificant tiny sharecropper
  380. # [12:46] <jgraham> I think when enough authors get together like that, they will hire some people to handle the parts they aren't good at.
  381. # [12:47] <jgraham> Pretty soon you have recreated a publisher
  382. # [12:49] <jgraham> c.f. http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2013/03/why-i-dont-self-publish.html
  383. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> yeah that's the basic argument but I personally find it more of an excuse for authors to be lazy and complain
  384. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> compare this situation to indie bands
  385. # [12:51] * yhirano_ is now known as yhirano
  386. # [12:52] <jgraham> Who largely self-organise into record labels and often preferentially sign with the large corporate labels?
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  388. # [12:53] <jgraham> (that is: there are a non-zero number of cases where bands release their first record on some small label, have a little success and then choose to sign to a larger label)
  389. # [12:55] <MikeSmith> the vast majority of bands that sign to a larger label don't make money
  390. # [12:56] <MikeSmith> in many cases, they end up owing the record label money
  391. # [12:56] <MikeSmith> things like https://bandcamp.com/ allow them to have a chance to actually make some money off their records
  392. # [12:57] <jgraham> So I agree that the record industry is strucutred to send most of the money to the label
  393. # [12:57] <MikeSmith> yeah
  394. # [12:57] <jgraham> It isn't clear that the same is true of publishing, or that indie-ness really helps
  395. # [12:58] <jgraham> If being on an artist-run label is so much more profitable, why wouldn't everyone do it?
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  397. # [12:59] <MikeSmith> anyway, I understand Charles Stross's POV but he's making a choice not just to save himself money and work. He's choosing to push costs off onto the people who want to read his books.
  398. # [13:00] * Joins: laurensclaessen (~laurenscl@91.183.84.141)
  399. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> jgraham: as far as "why wouldn't everyone do it", because is requires additional work
  400. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> when I was young I remember there was a time when music clubs move to a "pay to play" system where bands basically had to rent a club if they wanted to perform tehre
  401. # [13:04] <MikeSmith> but bands I knew were already doing "pay to play" in that if they wanted to have a place to perform and get people to show up, they rented some Knights of Columbus meeting hall or other odd place
  402. # [13:06] <MikeSmith> bands that were actually good got known that way and moved on to playing in bigger places. But they got known for doing good live performances first.
  403. # [13:09] <MikeSmith> other kinds of bands got known first mostly from just putting out songs on 12-inch singles that got played at live shows by DJs but never got played on any commercial radio stations. And that's how they got known
  404. # [13:11] <MikeSmith> anyway there are lots of ways to get known and eventually get money that don't involve lazily relegating all the work to some company with a marketing department
  405. # [13:13] <MikeSmith> and somebody who is known like Charles Stross could instead use a kickstarter-like service to raise money for the equivalent of the 2 months of publishing-company production work he claims is needed to complete the publishing process for one of his books
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  409. # [13:34] <jgraham> Sure, but kickstarter tends to reward the already-well-known
  410. # [13:35] <hsivonen> annevk, MikeSmith: The TLS problem with Validator.nu is that the requests the validator itself makes are without SNI
  411. # [13:35] <hsivonen> annevk, MikeSmith: for hosting the validator itself, this means it's embarrassing if the validator is hosted in a SNI-requiring way and, therefore, the validator is unable to validate itself
  412. # [13:36] <hsivonen> annevk, MikeSmith: what's really blocking validator.nu being hosted behind TLS, though, is that I haven't decided how to get certs
  413. # [13:36] <annevk> hsivonen: how can it validate other SNI domains then?
  414. # [13:36] <hsivonen> annevk: it can't. and that's going to be a bigger and bigger problem!
  415. # [13:36] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ah yeah I remember overhearing that discussion now
  416. # [13:36] <hsivonen> (that needs to be fixed)
  417. # [13:37] <annevk> hsivonen: works for whatwg and my site...
  418. # [13:37] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141)
  419. # [13:38] <hsivonen> annevk: that's probably because the validator doesn't check the host name against the cert and then the HTTP Host header dispatch happens independently of SNI
  420. # [13:38] <hsivonen> annevk: good discovery
  421. # [13:38] <hsivonen> as for getting certs, first I was thinking of using SNI and getting a wildcard from sslmate.
  422. # [13:39] <hsivonen> then, I figured I'd get identity validated at StartSSL and mint a cert with all my domains
  423. # [13:40] <hsivonen> then I looked at what identity validation means and figured that it's BS that I should give someone ammo to commit identity theft against me in order to get certs
  424. # [13:40] <hsivonen> after all, having my name on a non-EV cert is pointless
  425. # [13:40] <hsivonen> what matters is DV
  426. # [13:41] <hsivonen> the StartSSL requirement to perform identity validation for DV certs seems just and excuse to do some work that justifies the business model
  427. # [13:41] <annevk> DV?
  428. # [13:41] <hsivonen> domain validation
  429. # [13:42] <hsivonen> validating that the public key belongs to validator.nu
  430. # [13:42] <hsivonen> users aren't going to care if the cert also says something about "Henri Sivonen" in the non-EV case
  431. # [13:42] <hsivonen> in the non-EV case, Firefox will say the site is "run by (unknown)" even if the cert claims it's run by "Henri Sivonen"
  432. # [13:43] <hsivonen> so having the string "Henri Sivonen" is pretty useless
  433. # [13:43] <MikeSmith> yep
  434. # [13:43] <annevk> Yeah I don't get why CAs have class1-4 and various other things as UAs just don't care
  435. # [13:43] <hsivonen> so I heard about Namecheap selling multidomain Comodo certs without such bogus paperwork
  436. # [13:43] <MikeSmith> what Firefox is doing is the right thing. Other browsers don't say that?
  437. # [13:44] <hsivonen> but it seems the advertised pricing at Namecheap is misleading and too good to be true
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  439. # [13:44] <hsivonen> now I'm stuck between giving StartSSL paperwork I shouldn't have to give to a CA and researching how much the Namecheap offering would really cost me
  440. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> annevk: maybe CAs have that for some client cases other than browsers
  441. # [13:45] <hsivonen> annevk: I suppose for S/MIME, the distinction between StartSSL free and identity validated certs makes a bit of sense
  442. # [13:47] <annevk> hsivonen: why is 30 USD per year cheap?
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  444. # [13:49] <hsivonen> annevk: that's the effective per-year cost of two-year identity validated StartSSL certs, right?
  445. # [13:49] <annevk> hsivonen: except with StartSSL you can mint a million of them and they offer wildcards too
  446. # [13:49] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: Chrome and IE don't expose the string "Anne Van Kesteren" for annevankesteren.nl in the doorhanger, either
  447. # [13:50] <annevk> Such a sad string, happy they don't show it
  448. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> ok good
  449. # [13:50] <hsivonen> annevk: right. I don't know how much the Namecheap option would actually cost
  450. # [13:50] <annevk> The Common Name field is also completely broken
  451. # [13:50] <annevk> But that seems not restricted to StartSSL
  452. # [13:51] <hsivonen> I will probably end up sending StartSSL paperwork I shouldn't have to send them and hope they aren't running an identity theft scam
  453. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw I notice that Nightly no longer "which is run by (unknown)" for the non-EV case. I just shows omits that part completely. You have to use the "more information" button to see "Owner: This site does not supply ownership information."
  454. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: The old behavior was better for users. I wonder why it was changed.
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  456. # [13:57] <annevk> hsivonen: you could prolly try argue with the founder of StartSSL
  457. # [13:57] * MikeSmith looks down to the actual cert and sees that the O for *.whatwg.org is "Anne Van Kesteren"
  458. # [13:57] <annevk> hsivonen: he answers support email, it's pretty cool
  459. # [13:57] <annevk> MikeSmith: sssh, don't tell anyone
  460. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> heh
  461. # [13:58] <JakeA> annevk: "run Soft Update just before you plan on booting the service worker" - why before? Are you suggesting blocking the SW running on the update completing?
  462. # [13:59] <annevk> JakeA: I don't know, you'll need to decide that. But say I visit gmail.com and get a SW. Then 48h later it sends a push message. What is the UA to do?
  463. # [13:59] <annevk> JakeA: or I visit gmail.com and get an SW. gmail.com shows a notification. I close gmail.com and 48h later I click the notification. What is the UA to do?
  464. # [14:01] <JakeA> annevk: in the first example, the push message would be handled immediately & the update happens in the background
  465. # [14:01] <annevk> JakeA: so that means you can run a SW that is older than 24h
  466. # [14:01] <JakeA> annevk: yes, you must be able to do that
  467. # [14:02] <annevk> JakeA: is that also what happens on navigation?
  468. # [14:02] <JakeA> annevk: yes
  469. # [14:02] <annevk> JakeA: okay fine, then that's what I'm proposing
  470. # [14:02] <hsivonen> annevk: also, I want to choose an option that I'm willing to pay for indefinitely from one of two CAs
  471. # [14:02] <annevk> JakeA: except instead of making it conditional on navigating, just make it conditional on booting
  472. # [14:02] <JakeA> annevk: I don't want all my apps failing because I've been abroad & no connection for 25hrs
  473. # [14:02] <JakeA> gotcha
  474. # [14:02] <hsivonen> annevk: that is, if I mint a cert at StartSSL that's insanely expensive to mint anywhere else, things will be bad if there's ever a reason to switch CAs
  475. # [14:03] <annevk> hsivonen: start deprecating your subdomains now
  476. # [14:03] <annevk> hsivonen: although it seems CloudFlare is offering wildcard certs pretty cheaply too now
  477. # [14:04] <annevk> JakeA: well they wouldn't fail, they would just be slower to boot once you have connectivity, but avoiding that would be good too
  478. # [14:04] <annevk> JakeA: that does mean you have to support the SW script URL forever theoretically speaking
  479. # [14:04] <annevk> but that makes sense
  480. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so, about X-UA-Compatible, you ok with me landing https://github.com/validator/validator/commit/53d1154d6dcb18f6280e4b54d53c5ce48328072e ? Or would you prefer to wait for https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27091 to be resolved?
  481. # [14:11] * hsivonen looks at the bug for rationale
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  483. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I can add more rationale in the bug but basically it comes down to, it's used all over the place and in bootstrap and the other kinds of boilerplate kits like that, and recommended in 3rd-party best-practices docs, etc.
  484. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: in other words we lost the fight. We lost it a long time ago, actually
  485. # [14:13] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: can we make IE=edge the only valid value?
  486. # [14:14] <hsivonen> this is product-specific markup, so in principle it should be invalid
  487. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I think Hixie would like to probably. Hixie was actually wonder if we should just make the whole element required.
  488. # [14:14] <hsivonen> but then "RDFa" is, in practice, Facebook-specific markup, and we gave up on that one
  489. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: the reality in this case doesn't align well with the principle
  490. # [14:15] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: why should it be required now that new IE defaults to edge?
  491. # [14:15] <MikeSmith> yeah (about the Facebook RDFa stuff)
  492. # [14:15] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: for older IEs I guess
  493. # [14:15] <hsivonen> I'm inclined to opine "let's allow but IE=edge only"
  494. # [14:16] <hsivonen> (Chrome Frame is dead)
  495. # [14:16] <hsivonen> calling the lack of doctype invalid but IE=5 valid seems all wrong
  496. # [14:17] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: also, considering that new IE defaults to edge, I don't think it's a given that we "lost"
  497. # [14:17] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I mean we've lost as far as not wasting validator user's time currently
  498. # [14:18] <MikeSmith> everyone simply ignores this error
  499. # [14:18] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: OK. I suggest allowing IE=edge only
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  501. # [14:18] <MikeSmith> OK
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  503. # [14:18] <hsivonen> OK. thanks
  504. # [14:18] <MikeSmith> thank you
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  518. # [14:28] <hsivonen> annevk: no way around it that StartSSL is the cheapest option
  519. # [14:28] * Parts: mkopriva (~mkopriva@chello089173186242.chello.sk)
  520. # [14:29] <hsivonen> but there's still the issue that doing too much TLS with StartSSL poses a problem if ever switching CAs
  521. # [14:29] <hsivonen> so even if I got identity validated, I'd have to decide which subset of my hostnames to enable TLS for
  522. # [14:30] <hsivonen> this is quite a switch that with TLS, you have to think about buying your hostnames instead of thinking about buying domains, only
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  525. # [14:37] <annevk> I was hoping domain registrars could just start handing out certificates, but given the state of DNSSEC that might not be a good idea
  526. # [14:38] <hsivonen> annevk: DNSSEC is basically a CA with a 1024-bit root and unpoliced intermediate practices
  527. # [14:38] <hsivonen> annevk: regarding brokenness of everything except TLS 1.2 AEAD suites:
  528. # [14:39] <hsivonen> annevk: RC4 is the only non-AEAD stream cipher and is broken
  529. # [14:39] <hsivonen> annevk: non-AEAD block cipher modes are all CBC
  530. # [14:39] <hsivonen> CBC in SSLv3 is vulnerable to POODLE
  531. # [14:39] <hsivonen> CBC in TLS 1.0 is vulnerable to BEAST
  532. # [14:40] <annevk> And TLS 1.1?
  533. # [14:41] <hsivonen> CBC is in TLS 1.1 and TLS 1.2 is "MAC, then encrypt", which violates the "Cryptographic Doom Principle"
  534. # [14:41] <hsivonen> http://www.thoughtcrime.org/blog/the-cryptographic-doom-principle/
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  536. # [14:42] <hsivonen> so that leaves just the AEAD suites
  537. # [14:42] <hsivonen> ...whose ECDHE variants in practice are limited to NIST curves, whose design is questionable
  538. # [14:42] <hsivonen> so, yay
  539. # [14:43] <annevk> So this is why everyone is hpoeful about TLS 1.3?
  540. # [14:43] <annevk> What a clusterfuck
  541. # [14:43] <annevk> Why do we keep doing protocols at the IETF again?
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  543. # [14:45] <jgraham> To be fair, cryptography is hard
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  548. # [14:48] <hsivonen> annevk: regarding the NIST curves: http://safecurves.cr.yp.to/bada55/bada55-20140722.pdf
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  550. # [14:48] <annevk> jgraham: but with these protocols nearly everything went wrong, not just the crypto
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  552. # [14:49] <annevk> jgraham: e.g. version negotiation has been a complete disaster
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  562. # [14:52] <hsivonen> annevk: to be fair, the IETF inherited backward compat requirements from Netscape
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  564. # [14:53] <hsivonen> annevk: and the name TLS is Microsoft's fault (though the IETF let Microsoft impose the name)
  565. # [14:53] <jgraham> I don't doubt that things could have been done better. But "nearly everything went wrong" is evidently not true
  566. # [14:57] * caitp- is now known as caitp
  567. # [14:58] <hsivonen> annevk: FWIW, things would be much better if malicious JS on one origin couldn't cause requests to origin of its choice *with cookies*
  568. # [14:58] <hsivonen> annevk: so much of the blame lies in the Web Platform being unusual in terms of what capabilities the attacker is given
  569. # [14:59] <annevk> hsivonen: there's a proposal of sorts for samedocument / firstparty cookies
  570. # [14:59] <annevk> hsivonen: there's even a patch for Firefox
  571. # [14:59] <hsivonen> annevk: what's blocking it?
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  573. # [14:59] <annevk> hsivonen: there's a lack of interest
  574. # [14:59] <hsivonen> :-(
  575. # [15:00] <annevk> hsivonen: https://people.mozilla.org/~mgoodwin/SameDomain/
  576. # [15:00] <annevk> Maybe I should subscribe to dev-security and ask it to be revived
  577. # [15:00] <annevk> Adding a powerful new directive to cookies seems like a good thing
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  579. # [15:01] <annevk> Let me bug Mike West
  580. # [15:01] <hsivonen> yeah, though see "cookie cutter attacks" regarding directives :-(
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  582. # [15:07] <annevk> Turns out that was a good bet, he's picking up https://github.com/mikewest/cake from abarth
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  584. # [15:08] <annevk> I gave him mgoodwin's contact details so they can sort out the firstparty idea
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  587. # [15:21] <annevk> hsivonen: that's a hard attack to search for, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cookiecutter_shark
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  611. # [16:11] <gsnedders> Interesting Chakra seemed to have followed Carakan in only having an optimizing compiler originally, given everyone else started out with a baseline JIT.
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  614. # [16:20] <hsivonen> annevk: I don't have a cookie cutter reference other than Ivan Ristic's book
  615. # [16:20] <hsivonen> annevk: the idea is that the attacker forcibly forces end of stream such that the ; secure token is lost from a cookie
  616. # [16:21] <hsivonen> annevk: then it gets sent to the attacker without TLS
  617. # [16:21] <hsivonen> annevk: and this works, because even though the TLS layer detects truncation, the HTTP layer doesn't fail in browsers when the TLS layer detects that something is wrong
  618. # [16:21] <annevk> hsivonen: https://twitter.com/ivanristic/status/458689481340878848
  619. # [16:22] <hsivonen> annevk: oh a fix. cool
  620. # [16:23] <annevk> hsivonen: https://secure-resumption.com/tlsauth.pdf perhaps
  621. # [16:24] <annevk> hsivonen: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=244260 seems like browsers might have fixed this
  622. # [16:25] <annevk> hsivonen: does seem like something not actually described by any specification though :-(
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  634. # [16:35] <gsnedders> waitwhat, StartSSL *generates the private key* in the browser?!!!!
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  636. # [16:36] <gsnedders> ignore me while I go and cry
  637. # [16:36] <hsivonen> gsnedders: <keygen> is OK
  638. # [16:36] <hsivonen> gsnedders: the part where they offer to generate a private key on their "HSM" is the scary part
  639. # [16:37] <gsnedders> but what do they do on IE, then?
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  641. # [16:37] <hsivonen> IE has some VBScript equivalent of <keygen>, IIRC
  642. # [16:37] <gsnedders> I thought VBScript support had been dropped except on old compat modes?
  643. # [16:38] <hsivonen> maybe test it in IE?
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  645. # [16:38] * gsnedders doesn't have a working up-to-date IE here
  646. # [16:39] <gsnedders> hsivonen: if they're using <keygen> howe do you get your private key, though? per spec it's just stored in some undefined local keystore, so you need some per-browser way to get at it??
  647. # [16:41] <gsnedders> because startssl seem to dump it in a <texarea>, and I can't see how you can do that with <keygen>
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  649. # [16:42] <gsnedders> and if it's in a <textarea>, they could've XHR'd it up to their server so you really do need to trust it
  650. # [16:44] <annevk> gsnedders: you can allow StartSSL to generate a private key, but you can also give them an CSR
  651. # [16:44] <annevk> s/an/a/
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  655. # [16:45] <gsnedders> if it really is done in-browser then it's kinda pointless given you're pretty much doomed to be using a PRNG
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  657. # [16:46] <annevk> gsnedders: given the conversation above about <keygen>, it's not entirely clear to me what part you're talking about
  658. # [16:46] <annevk> gsnedders: authentication goes through <keygen>
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  660. # [16:46] <annevk> gsnedders: certificates have their own distinct UI; if you take them up on their offer to generate a private key, it will be done on their hardware
  661. # [16:47] <gsnedders> annevk: ok, what I'd seen made it sound like it was done in-browser
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  679. # [17:16] <Domenic> JakeA: how often does updatefound fire?
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  681. # [17:17] <JakeA> Domenic: update checks happen on navigation, and if the fetched SW is byte-different from the current version, updatefound fires
  682. # [17:17] <Domenic> JakeA: so, somewhat often then. OK cool.
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  684. # [17:18] <Domenic> JakeA: was wondering if it was a candidate for http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/promises-guide#one-time-events
  685. # [17:18] <JakeA> Domenic: you can limit updates using max-age on the script, but to a max of 24hr
  686. # [17:19] <JakeA> Domenic: ahh I see. No, it's possible to have that fire multiple times through the life of the doc
  687. # [17:19] <JakeA> Rare I imagine, but possible
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  693. # [17:32] <Domenic> JakeA: yeah. even that's not too much of a problem, but the question is really do you want to set it and only handle the next case, or set it and handle all future cases. i'd guess the latter, so event is good.
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  733. # [18:40] <Hixie> the HTML spec explicitly says that http-equiv isn't equivalent to HTTP headers, i haven't said they were equivalent for years
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  735. # [18:42] <tantek> Hixie I can see it now
  736. # [18:43] <tantek> http-equiv is not equivalent. distributed extensibility is slavery. living specificiation is stability. ;)
  737. # [18:43] <Ms2ger> Stalality?
  738. # [18:43] <Hixie> not sure about that middle one
  739. # [18:44] <Hixie> (distributed extensibility is reasonable, a priori. It's the way it's usually implemented that's the problem.)
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  743. # [18:58] <tantek> distributed extensibility is both an anathema to interoperability, and a reasonable source of research for standards development.
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  767. # [19:33] <TabAtkins> Anyone wanting to run Bikeshed on Windows, and willing to test the new install steps that just got committed to the documentation?
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  771. # [19:36] <TabAtkins> If so, https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/blob/master/docs/install.md and let me know.
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  774. # [19:44] <Domenic> <3
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  777. # [19:47] <Hixie> tantek: nah, you can make things extensible without losing interop. I mean, all scripting is basically "extensibility" for example. Same with the class="" attribute.
  778. # [19:48] <Hixie> tantek: microformats is an example of "distributed extensibility" and it doesn't harm interop.
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  780. # [19:49] <tantek> Hixie - au contraire - the fact that microformats is a community for agreeing upon vocabularies has often been a criticism in the past (centralized).
  781. # [19:49] <tantek> and that agreement (as "centralized" as it may be) is the reason for interop
  782. # [19:49] <tantek> similarly, registries, like the rel registry
  783. # [19:49] <tantek> meta names
  784. # [19:49] <tantek> etc.
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  786. # [19:50] <tantek> class attribute is a good example of distributed != interop. e.g. try re-using a style sheet from one site with the HTML with class names of another - I'd be very suprised if you found *any* interop there
  787. # [19:51] <Hixie> sure, the "implementation" of the class attribute is the style sheet or script that uses it
  788. # [19:51] <tantek> the d.e. folks aren't really interested in interop (or they don't understand interop), they appear to be mostly interested in the *freedom* to just make things up (like XML before them, etc.)
  789. # [19:51] <tantek> hence the analogy to Orwell's "freedom is slavery" 1984 quote
  790. # [19:51] <Hixie> i mean you could say that different file formats are bad for interop because if you take an HTML file and stick it in a PDF viewer, it fails, but i'm not sure that's an argument against anything useful
  791. # [19:52] <Hixie> there are many "d.e. folk" with different interests
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  793. # [19:52] <tantek> my PDF viewer happens to be Firefox so maybe that works now?
  794. # [19:52] <Hixie> you know what i mean
  795. # [19:52] <tantek> Hixie, I admit I have not maintained a sourced taxonomy of "d.e. folk". could make for an interesting study.
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  799. # [19:55] <Hixie> "distributed extensibility" just means "the ability to do new things (extend) without coordination with the original source (distributed)"
  800. # [19:56] <Hixie> "document.foo = 1" is "distributed extensibility" -- you're extending the Document object with a property "foo"
  801. # [19:56] <Hixie> without coordinating with Anne
  802. # [19:59] <tantek> seems we have different meanings for d.e. which I suppose is self-consistent with the term
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  804. # [19:59] <Hixie> what's your meaning for it?
  805. # [19:59] <TabAtkins> Hahaha
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  807. # [20:00] <tantek> that different (distributed) people/groups can extend and expect interop
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  810. # [20:03] <Hixie> how is that inconsistent with my example?
  811. # [20:03] <Hixie> what do you mean by "interop"?
  812. # [20:04] <Hixie> do you mean like group A and group B both come up with technology for describing contact details, and somehow content from group A works fine in processors made by group B despite them having no coordination?
  813. # [20:04] <Hixie> because that seems like a magical pipedream that has never happened and is unlikely to happen anytime soon
  814. # [20:05] <Hixie> if you don't mean that, then it seems consistent with what i said
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  819. # [20:07] <boogyman> annevk: i saw http://wingolog.org/archives/2014/10/17/ffs-ssl and thought you might get a kick out of it.
  820. # [20:09] <TabAtkins> In the phrase "javascript crypto", my eyes *insist* that "javascript" is misspelled and needs a "y" in it.
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  823. # [20:11] <annevk> boogyman: I think he's wrong about StartSSL
  824. # [20:12] <annevk> boogyman: also, it seems he forgot about the HSTS part?
  825. # [20:12] <boogyman> hsts is down further in the article
  826. # [20:13] <annevk> boogyman: it's not enabled though, you gave me a http:// link
  827. # [20:14] <boogyman> "Except that doesn't work the first time you go to a web site"
  828. # [20:15] <annevk> boogyman: he has not enabled it
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  830. # [20:16] <annevk> Anyway, as seen earlier today it's fairly easy to rant about TLS
  831. # [20:17] <boogyman> I just thought you may have some empathy for the author.
  832. # [20:17] <annevk> boogyman: fair
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  842. # [20:45] <TabAtkins> Domenic: Dunno if you're using the {{foo!type}} syntax yet, but if so, I've changed it to use two !! to make collisions less likely.
  843. # [20:45] <Domenic> TabAtkins: don't know what that does, heh
  844. # [20:45] <TabAtkins> All right, cool. ^_^
  845. # [20:46] <TabAtkins> It's an inline type specifier for the shorthand syntax. Identical to <a data-link-type=type>foo</a>.
  846. # [20:47] <TabAtkins> (Since {{foo}} defaults to the "idl" link type, and sometimes you need to disambiguate.)
  847. # [20:47] <TabAtkins> (I'm adding it to the other link shorthands right now.)
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  852. # [20:54] <annevk> TabAtkins: can https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/ be done in Bikeshed? Note how it no longer has "This version" links or an editor field or some such
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  854. # [20:56] <annevk> Hixie: I fixed the Twitter script, but the last two commits did not use it
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  865. # [21:12] <Domenic> annevk: I made TabAtkins get rid of "this version"; unsure if editor is optional yet.
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  873. # [21:23] <Hixie> annevk: k
  874. # [21:31] <TabAtkins> annevk: Hm, why no editor?
  875. # [21:32] <Hixie> HTML doesn't mention the editor either except in the acknowledgements
  876. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> Relaxing these kinds of constraints means error-detection is less useful. :/ But if necessary, I can add a value that lets you explicitly opt out of Editor mandatoriness.
  877. # [21:32] <Hixie> (i felt it was too braggy, personally)
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  892. # [21:46] <Hixie> anyone know why the w3c hasn't published the HTML5 REC yet? I thought they said they were done.
  893. # [21:46] <Hixie> I had assumed that meant they had reached REC
  894. # [21:48] <wilhelm> Something tells me it will be published in a week and a half, from a depressing conference hotel on a parking lot in Santa Clara.
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  898. # [21:51] <TabAtkins> hahaha
  899. # [21:52] * TabAtkins is doing nothing but posting "hahaha" today.
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  904. # [21:54] <wilhelm> Mead may be required that week. That's not so far away, right?
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  906. # [21:57] <TabAtkins> wilhelm: Rather close. I'm going there today!
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  919. # [22:29] <annevk> TabAtkins: I think marcosc suggested that at some point, to get the ego out of the game (in case there is any)
  920. # [22:30] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@209.49.66.106)
  921. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> annevk: Interesting.
  922. # [22:33] <annevk> And while I put a lot of time into writing and research, ultimately there's a great many people involved
  923. # [22:34] <annevk> I still have my contact details at the bottom of the document, which seems better as now people are more encouraged to use public communication mechanism
  924. # [22:34] <annevk> s
  925. # [22:36] <TabAtkins> All right, all right, I'll add a feature for it.
  926. # [22:36] <TabAtkins> Suggestions on what you should write in the `Editor:` line to indicate this?
  927. # [22:37] <TabAtkins> Editor: NOT IMPORTANT JEEZ
  928. # [22:37] <astearns> Editor: Schmeditor
  929. # [22:38] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-50-136-134-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  930. # [22:39] <TabAtkins> That's not a bad idea.
  931. # [22:39] <annevk> TabAtkins: leave it blank?
  932. # [22:39] <annevk> TabAtkins: or omit it? less boilerplate...
  933. # [22:39] <estellevw> Question re the autofocus attribute: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/forms.html#autofocusing-a-form-control:-the-autofocus-attribute.
  934. # [22:40] <estellevw> Only one element should have autofocus set. If more than one, implementation used to be the LAST element with the attribute would get focus. Safari still does this.
  935. # [22:40] <estellevw> All other browsers now focus on the FIRST element with autofocus.
  936. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> Omitting it means I can't log an error when you leave it out. Most of the time you do want an editor+contact info up in the header.
  937. # [22:40] <estellevw> Don’t exactly see where in the spec this is indicated as the first should get focus.
  938. # [22:40] <estellevw> I filed a bug that the first should get focus a few years back, and am glad the change was made, but not sure what it the spec makes it so.
  939. # [22:40] <Hixie> estellevw: they should all get focus, as they are inserted.
  940. # [22:41] <estellevw> so, then, it should be the last one
  941. # [22:41] <estellevw> ?
  942. # [22:41] <TabAtkins> Yeah, sounds like that's implied.
  943. # [22:41] <Hixie> right
  944. # [22:41] <estellevw> Which would mean only Safari is doing it right
  945. # [22:42] <annevk> TabAtkins: I want an error when I leave it in :p
  946. # [22:42] <estellevw> All browsers used to focus on the last one (other than some mobile that iddn’t support autofocus), but now all except Safari focus on the first one
  947. # [22:42] <estellevw> All = IE11, Chrome, Opera FF in the above sentence
  948. # [22:43] <TabAtkins> annevk: If you think it should be a general policy for WHATWG specs, okay, I can do something about that. If it's just you, you can do it yourself. ^_^
  949. # [22:43] <Hixie> estellevw: (see "When an element with the autofocus attribute specified is inserted into a document, user agents should run the following steps")
  950. # [22:43] <TabAtkins> (Just need to put an `"Editor":"schmeditor"` line in defaults-whatwg.include .)
  951. # [22:43] <Hixie> estellevw: oh nevermind
  952. # [22:43] <Hixie> estellevw: step 7 means that you only actually move focus for the first one
  953. # [22:44] <estellevw> yeah, saw that, which is why I didn’t understand why IE, chrome, O and FF changed it to focusing on the 1st autofocus
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  955. # [22:44] <annevk> TabAtkins: that sounds reasonable
  956. # [22:44] <estellevw> ah, so step 7 is what makes it the “1st” thanks Hixie
  957. # [22:44] <TabAtkins> Actually, we can add that line *now*, and if you actually specify an Editor, it'll override that.
  958. # [22:44] <annevk> TabAtkins: I guess I'll try to convert something simple like Fullscreen next week
  959. # [22:45] * Ms2ger sure wouldn't mind not having to worry about anolis anymore
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  961. # [22:45] <annevk> Actually, should probably start with URL as it wants Bikeshed for those syntax diagrams
  962. # [22:46] * TabAtkins is eating the world.
  963. # [22:49] <Domenic> annevk: let me know if you want help getting the deploy process all set up. I really <3 my automatic generate-on-commit with /branch-snapshots/ and /commit-snapshots/
  964. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> Domenic: Write that stuff down, yo.
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  966. # [22:49] <Domenic> It's really great for PRs where you can do e.g. https://github.com/whatwg/streams/pull/233 and then once Travis finishes building you can just link to hte branch snapshot
  967. # [22:50] <Domenic> TabAtkins: good idea
  968. # [22:50] <Ms2ger> Did anyone ever do an acid3 post-mortem?
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  973. # [22:56] <Hixie> Ms2ger: not quite a postmortem, but i did write a "lessons learnt" list
  974. # [22:56] <Hixie> Ms2ger: http://hixie.ch/tests/evil/acid/004/
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  976. # [23:01] <annevk> Domenic: so you edit one file and then commit? all the building happens remotely?
  977. # [23:01] <annevk> Domenic: what if you make a mistake?
  978. # [23:01] <Domenic> annevk: yep.
  979. # [23:01] <Domenic> annevk: I can also generate it locally
  980. # [23:02] <Domenic> annevk: haven't gotten a watcher up and running yet but it should be pretty easy now that there are instructions for running bikeshed on windows
  981. # [23:02] <Domenic> (i've been using curl in the meantime)
  982. # [23:02] <Domenic> more directly: I generate it locally, but i don't commit the generated content
  983. # [23:03] <annevk> "Array.prototype.values is not web compat (even with unscopables)"
  984. # [23:03] <annevk> That is some sad shit
  985. # [23:03] <annevk> Soon
  986. # [23:04] <annevk> "query() is not web compat (even with unscopables)"
  987. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> JS's extensibility comes back to bite it. :/
  988. # [23:09] <annevk> I wonder if the polyfill crowd is taking notes
  989. # [23:10] <TabAtkins> Designing good extensibility which is lightweight but avoids extensions quashing built-ins or the other way around is hard, but necessary.
  990. # [23:10] <TabAtkins> Hopefully modules and relationships end up making this easier, though it means migrating away from own properties.
  991. # [23:18] <Domenic> annevk: that's assuming array subclassing is even web-compatible :-S
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  995. # [23:24] <annevk> Domenic: good point
  996. # [23:25] <annevk> Domenic: this is why ES6 is becoming kind of a clusterfuck
  997. # [23:25] <annevk> Domenic: lots of good untested ideas
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  1003. # [23:38] <Domenic> wow https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/embedded-content.html#timeranges
  1004. # [23:38] <Domenic> what is this it has an array but no indexed getter
  1005. # [23:38] <Domenic> s/an array/a length property
  1006. # [23:39] <Hixie> each item has two values (a start and an end)
  1007. # [23:39] <Domenic> myTimeRanges.start(3) instead of myTimeRanges[3].start
  1008. # [23:39] <Hixie> using [3].start would mean that every range is a new object
  1009. # [23:39] <Domenic> yes
  1010. # [23:39] <Domenic> is that bad?
  1011. # [23:40] <Hixie> yes?
  1012. # [23:40] <Hixie> malloc() is expensive
  1013. # [23:40] <Domenic> internally the implementation is presumably tracking them all anyway?
  1014. # [23:40] <Domenic> as a list of { start, end } pairs?
  1015. # [23:40] <Hixie> internally the data is probably deep in the media framework
  1016. # [23:40] <Domenic> this seems like premature optimization
  1017. # [23:41] <Domenic> if nothing else just name it .size instead of .length
  1018. # [23:41] * Hixie shrugs
  1019. # [23:41] <Domenic> and by that i mean "it would have been nice if"
  1020. # [23:41] <Hixie> i don't see much difference between "length" and "size" here
  1021. # [23:41] <Domenic> length => array-like in JS, pretty universally
  1022. # [23:41] <Domenic> This is the first exception I've ever found
  1023. # [23:41] <Hixie> { length: 5 }
  1024. # [23:41] <Hixie> second exception?
  1025. # [23:42] <Hixie> :-P
  1026. # [23:42] <Domenic> Yep, that's an array-like with holes
  1027. # [23:42] <Domenic> Array.from({ length: 5 }) will generate [undefined, undefined, undefined, undefined, undefined]
  1028. # [23:42] <Hixie> nope, it's just a dictionary with one of its fields being a length
  1029. # [23:42] <Hixie> and it's a length in centimeters
  1030. # [23:42] <Domenic> what i'm saying is that length is a semi-keyword
  1031. # [23:42] <Hixie> [citation needed]
  1032. # [23:43] <Domenic> semi- => not really but it's used that way and the language is built to assume that
  1033. # [23:43] <TabAtkins> Hixie: No, .length makes something an array-like, effectively.
  1034. # [23:43] <Hixie> it is true that if you have an array-like, using length means it'll fit into existing APIs more neatly
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  1036. # [23:43] <Hixie> it does not follow from this that if you use length, you have an array-like.
  1037. # [23:44] <TabAtkins> Duck-typing, bro.
  1038. # [23:44] <TabAtkins> It's not great, but it exists.
  1039. # [23:44] <TabAtkins> Like having .then() makes you a promise-like.
  1040. # [23:45] <Hixie> again, having a then() means you can be used in the promise APIs. It does not follow from this that having a then() means you are a promise-like.
  1041. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> That's what duck-typing means.
  1042. # [23:46] <Hixie> no
  1043. # [23:46] <Hixie> duck typing means that an object that matches a pattern makes it valid for use in certain environments
  1044. # [23:47] <Hixie> it does not mean that an object that matches a pattern is intended for use in those environments
  1045. # [23:47] <Domenic> in this case it's more about expectations being broken
  1046. # [23:48] <Domenic> if i see .length in an IDL I expect to be able to index into an object
  1047. # [23:48] <Domenic> Or even in my REPL
  1048. # [23:48] <TabAtkins> It means that the object is, duck-typely, a Foo-Like.
  1049. # [23:56] <Hixie> if something quacks like a duck and looks like a duck you can use it in places where ducks would work and it'll do something well-defined. It does not mean that it is a duck or that the well-defined thing will be useful.
  1050. # [23:56] <TabAtkins> It is a duck when talking duck-typely.
  1051. # [23:56] <TabAtkins> Not, perhaps, when talking in reference to other ontologies.
  1052. # [23:57] <Hixie> if by "is a duck" you mean "not actually a duck" then sure
  1053. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> "is functionally a duck"
  1054. # [23:58] <Hixie> not necessarily
  1055. # [23:58] <Hixie> case in point, { length: 5 } is not "functionally an array"
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  1057. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> Sure it is. You can put it in Array.from() and it'll work just fine.
  1058. # [23:58] <Hixie> it'll do something well-defined and useless
  1059. # [23:59] <TabAtkins> Yup. It's functionally an array, though, in that it acts like an array.
  1060. # [23:59] <TabAtkins> You're arguing sideways at me, by continuing to insist that there's a particularly ontology in which it's not an array, and that's the only correct ontology.
  1061. # [23:59] <Hixie> "functional" means "practical and useful"
  1062. # [23:59] <Hixie> it's not practically or usefully an array
  1063. # [23:59] <TabAtkins> Dictionary arguments aren't very useful. ^_^
  1064. # Session Close: Sat Oct 18 00:00:00 2014

The end :)