/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-10-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Oct 18 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> Especially because in this case it means "functions as if".
  4. # [00:00] <Hixie> dictionary arguments, to pardon the pun, are actually a great example of this
  5. # [00:00] <Hixie> by which i mean WebIDL Dictionary function arguments
  6. # [00:01] <Hixie> if a function is expecting an object with two fields "a" and "b", both set to integers, and you pass it an object with "b" and "c", both set to strings, it'll "work"
  7. # [00:01] <Hixie> but that doesn't mean that that it was intended for that purposes nor that it's a useful way of using that object
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  137. # [11:02] <annevk> Whoa whoa whoa http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Oct/0295.html
  138. # [11:03] <annevk> "CSSWG thinks Fullscreen should move to a Note referencing the WHATWG spec"
  139. # [11:04] <annevk> TabAtkins: is it still on the CSSWG's radar the changes Fullscreen does to CSS' rendering model need to move to CSS one day?
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  143. # [11:26] <annevk> zcorpan: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=850684
  144. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> annevk: http://validator.w3.org/nu/?doc=https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/ now gives an SSL-related error
  145. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> I'm not sure why, because http://validator.nu/?doc=https://html.spec.whatwg.org does not
  146. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> I suspect it might be a JVM difference but I really don't know
  147. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> I can work around it by using a runtime option with the validator instance to turn off checking of the TLS cert trust chain
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  149. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> it could be that hsivonen is already using that option with the validator.nu but I think he's not. that's why I'm puzzled about why else there would be different behavior
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  153. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> another weird difference is http://validator.w3.org/nu/?doc=https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MicrosyntaxDescriptions
  154. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> vs http://validator.nu/?doc=https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MicrosyntaxDescriptions
  155. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> it seems that wiki page is getting served to validator.w3.org/nu with an application/xml MIME type, while validator.nu is getting text/html as expected. I don't know why it would be getting served any differently.
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  159. # [11:43] <annevk> MikeSmith: works fine in validator.nu
  160. # [11:44] <annevk> MikeSmith: "Element style is missing required attribute type." is that still required in SVG?
  161. # [11:44] <annevk> "Attribute role not allowed on element svg at this point.", "Attribute aria-label not allowed on element svg at this point."
  162. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> yeah, the fact that it works fine in validator.nu is what I'm puzzled about
  163. # [11:44] <annevk> These seem like bugs in either the validator or SVG
  164. # [11:44] <annevk> "Stream length exceeds limit." is a validator.nu bug
  165. # [11:46] <MikeSmith> about SVG and role, there is no spec that defines document-conformance rules for the role attribute. So to have the validator not flag it as an error, I basically just to have to make up some rule(s)
  166. # [11:46] <annevk> MikeSmith: well, guess time has come for the validator to upgrade its TLS internals
  167. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  169. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> the thing is, I'm pretty sure the next time Henri redeploys validator.nu it will behave the same way the w3c instance is behaving now
  170. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> or when the java environment on the validator.nu host is upgraded
  171. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> validator.nu is running an older version of the sources so it's possible that some change I made to the sources since the last time Henri synced up is causing the difference but if so I have no idea what. I haven't touched an code recently that would affect this, as far as I can tell
  172. # [11:52] <MikeSmith> annevk: about "Element style is missing required attribute type." and SVG I don't know what's currently required for that in SVG. But the validator only implements SVG 1.1 support and for that it relies on an RelaxNG schema that's not completely up to date with the changes that SVG WG made to SVG 1.1 a couple years ago
  173. # [11:53] <MikeSmith> the did an "SVG 1.1 2nd Edition" thing similar to what the XML WG did with XML 1.0
  174. # [12:00] <annevk> Ah I remember
  175. # [12:01] <annevk> SVG still seems somewhat lacking in resources to get their specification stuff in order
  176. # [12:06] <annevk> So in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-websec-key-pinning-21 they never define what they mean by domain, subdomain, and host name
  177. # [12:06] <annevk> And for IP addresses they reference 3986 but I'm pretty sure Google would recognize http://0x00034234/ as IP address
  178. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> annevk: Are you studying this for the purpose of adding a definition of "domain" to the URL spec
  179. # [12:12] * MikeSmith tries to remember if the bug he raised about that is still open
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  181. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> annevk: about SVG WG, I asked them if somebody from the group who cares could please update their RelaxNG SVG 1.1 schema to match the 2nd-edition updates they made and the response was pretty much just a "sorry no" shrug.
  182. # [12:17] <annevk> MikeSmith: the syntax bug is still open, I'm hoping the Unicode consortium will address it
  183. # [12:17] <MikeSmith> so if nobody from the group cares to take time to do that, it's annoying that they're expecting me to care about more than they do -- that is, that I need to be the one to care about it enough to actually update the validator support for it
  184. # [12:17] <MikeSmith> annevk: ok
  185. # [12:17] <MikeSmith> that would be nice
  186. # [12:18] <annevk> MikeSmith: I was mostly wondering, the document also uses the term superdomain
  187. # [12:19] <annevk> MikeSmith: and I understand what they mean I think, but I like things to be defined from first principles (e.g. is dom.spec.html5.org a subdomain of html5.org? for the purposes of certificates that is not the case)
  188. # [12:19] <annevk> They also reference HTML4 which is just insane
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  193. # [12:28] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah, surprised by that HTML4 reference. I wouldn't think Ryan or Chris Evans would use that as a reference. So I wonder if some IETF reviewer asked for it to be changed.
  194. # [12:29] <annevk> MikeSmith: yeah, it's the kind of thing where everyone that knows, knows it's wrong, but new people will be utterly confused
  195. # [12:29] <annevk> MikeSmith: and normative reference pedants will be pleased they saved the day
  196. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> :(
  197. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> I hope that's now what happened though, and they can just change it
  198. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> *not what happened
  199. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> anyway as far as dom.spec.html5.org being a "subdomain" of html5.org I'd think most people would intuitively say yeah, it would be
  200. # [12:31] <annevk> MikeSmith: come on, your work for the organization that references an obsolete MIME Sniffing draft from the IETF that is three years expired now over something maintained from the WHATWG (updated last month) in its flagship specification
  201. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> I think otherwise people would wonder well what is a subdomain then if not that
  202. # [12:31] <annevk> s/your/you/
  203. # [12:32] <MikeSmith> yeah point taken
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  206. # [12:47] <annevk> Should probably define subdomain, superdomain, effective tld, etc. in URL at some point
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  217. # [13:11] <MikeSmith> annevk: so, what would be a simple explanation of what a subdomain actually is?
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  219. # [13:14] <annevk> I guess it's always relative to a domain name
  220. # [13:17] <annevk> A domain /s/ is a subdomain of a domain /d/ if /s/ has more labels than /d/ and all /d/'s labels are at the end of /s/ labels, preserving order
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  222. # [13:17] <annevk> Need better wording
  223. # [13:21] <MikeSmith> annevk: ah that whole labels thing
  224. # [13:22] <MikeSmith> isn't there some way to define it just in reference to DNS?
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  226. # [13:24] <annevk> MikeSmith: that'd require DNS lookups, no?
  227. # [13:24] <annevk> MikeSmith: seems undesirable
  228. # [13:36] <MikeSmith> annevk: no I don't mean defining it in terms of DNS lookups but instead just in terms of whatever language from the DNS specs
  229. # [13:36] <MikeSmith> maybe that makes no sense
  230. # [13:37] <MikeSmith> was just thinking out loud
  231. # [13:37] <annevk> MikeSmith: ah yeah, I don't think DNS works in that way
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  233. # [13:38] <annevk> MikeSmith: actually, I'm not sure, but last time I looked at those documents I did not become any wiser
  234. # [13:38] <annevk> MikeSmith: they certainly don't deal with things like effective TLD though and I'd like that to be defined in some standard as well
  235. # [13:39] <MikeSmith> ok
  236. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> annevk: these days I really miss working at Opera
  237. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> at least the Opera of the time back when I was there
  238. # [13:48] <Ms2ger> Do we not have any script execution tests in wpt?
  239. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> annevk: people with crazy ideas and a place that could actually help make them happen without layers of bureaucracy interfering
  240. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: for which part of the spec?
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  254. # [14:21] <annevk> MikeSmith: I just thought we could actually define subdomain as some kind of substring match
  255. # [14:21] <annevk> MikeSmith: isSubdomain(domainA.endsWith("." + domainB))
  256. # [14:22] <annevk> MikeSmith: same for superdomain
  257. # [14:22] <annevk> MikeSmith: that doesn't help with defining *.html5.org certificate stuff of course
  258. # [14:22] <annevk> MikeSmith: yeah, old Opera was nice
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  260. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah outside of the issue of the certificate stuff, defining it just in terms of substring matches seems right. But it would be nice to be able to do that without talking about "labels"
  261. # [14:27] <MikeSmith> maybe it's not possible without talking about labels though
  262. # [14:27] <annevk> Your dislike for labels is noted :-)
  263. # [14:27] <MikeSmith> heh
  264. # [14:28] <annevk> Subdomain seems possible to define without
  265. # [14:28] <annevk> Superdomain too
  266. # [14:28] <annevk> However, *.html5.org...
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  269. # [14:31] <MikeSmith> "label" is just not a term that I think most people are familiar with in relation to domain names. But then specs aren't written for most people. It just seems like it should always be a goal to define things in familiar terms when possible -- with an emphasis on the "when possible" of course
  270. # [14:31] <MikeSmith> like using "URL" instead of "URI"
  271. # [14:32] <annevk> I've heard people say "level"
  272. # [14:32] <annevk> Actually matches with top-level domain
  273. # [14:32] <MikeSmith> ah yeah that's closer at least
  274. # [14:32] <MikeSmith> yeah
  275. # [14:33] <MikeSmith> that fits better with the conceptual model
  276. # [14:35] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  277. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> but then I guess you still need something that identifies the particular level and then you're back to "label" really
  278. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> so I guess I should give up
  279. # [14:36] <MikeSmith> but... maybe "component"?
  280. # [14:36] <MikeSmith> domain-name components
  281. # [14:40] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  282. # [14:41] <annevk> MikeSmith: we could say that a domain is a stack of domain levels
  283. # [14:42] <MikeSmith> stack is good
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  286. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> annevk: anyway about Opera it's hard to imagine anybody else coming up with something like browser.js and managing to actually ship it
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  296. # [15:12] <SteveF_> MikeSmith:hey so you are saying that the SVG working group will need to do same for 1.1 as they have for 2
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  298. # [15:13] <MikeSmith> SteveF_: yup
  299. # [15:14] <SteveF_> MikeSmith: why? where elements defined in 1.1 are same as those in 2 why can't you use the role mappings?
  300. # [15:14] <MikeSmith> SteveF_: I can't just unilaterally invent ARIA-in-SVG1.1 rules for the validator
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  302. # [15:15] <SteveF_> MikeSmith: ok so what will you accept? an editors draft or some such?
  303. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> SteveF_: an ARIA-in-SVG1.1 spec of any kind, anywhere
  304. # [15:16] <SteveF_> MikeSmith: OK
  305. # [15:17] <SteveF_> will talk to rich
  306. # [15:17] <MikeSmith> cool
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  308. # [15:24] <MikeSmith> SteveF_: I guess if things were saner w.r.t spec versioning at the W3C or I were personally to take an enlightened view, I could consider the SVG2 spec a living spec that supersedes the SVG1.1 spec
  309. # [15:26] <SteveF_> MikeSmith: well in terms of usefulness for checker users an enlightened view would help
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  312. # [15:28] <SteveF_> MikeSmith: and I am sure that a 1.1 mapping spec can be whipped up using the info from the svg2 spec, but seems like enrgy user, but if that is what it takes to get sane error spits then will see what I can do
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  315. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> SteveF_: you're a better man than me :)
  316. # [15:33] <SteveF_> MikeSmith: we advocate use of ARIA on SVG in HTML of whatever flavour to make up for current acc layer fuck ups in browsers, so having them not throw errors in conformance would be helpful
  317. # [15:34] <SteveF_> MikeSmith: for example http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2013/12/using-aria-enhance-svg-accessibility/
  318. # [15:34] * MikeSmith looks
  319. # [15:35] <MikeSmith> wow
  320. # [15:35] <MikeSmith> so the problem here is not just the document-conformance stuff
  321. # [15:36] <MikeSmith> SteveF_: there's also no spec that defines the mappings for the native SVG elements to the a11y APIs?
  322. # [15:38] <SteveF_> MikeSmith: there is start of one http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg-aam/svg-aam.html
  323. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> if there's no spec for browser projects to implement from it seems not really suprising that the browser implementations aren't consistent
  324. # [15:38] * MikeSmith looks
  325. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> ah good
  326. # [15:39] <SteveF_> also note that SVG2 tabindex has been implemented in webkit http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/168313 and believe that its on its way elesehwere
  327. # [15:39] * MikeSmith looks
  328. # [15:41] <SteveF_> MikeSmith: FF svg tabindex https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=778654
  329. # [15:41] <MikeSmith> SteveF_: has that landed?
  330. # [15:42] <SteveF_> dunno
  331. # [15:43] <SteveF_> looks like it has in chrome https://codereview.chromium.org/166163005/
  332. # [15:43] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  333. # [15:43] <MikeSmith> good on ed
  334. # [15:45] <SteveF_> MikeSmith: so anyway we can chat at tpac about checker support, rich will be there too and he has been driving the svg2/acc stuff
  335. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> super
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  337. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> yeah let's do that for sure
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  355. # [17:36] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yeah, rendering model changes are still in out demesne, obviously.
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  379. # [19:23] <annevk> TabAtkins: demsne?
  380. # [19:24] <TabAtkins> domain, but fancier
  381. # [19:25] <annevk> ah, and out is fancy for our
  382. # [19:25] <annevk> got it
  383. # [19:26] <jgraham> Is TabAtkins inventing a whole new language?
  384. # [19:27] <TabAtkins> that's, uh, english
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  386. # [19:37] <jgraham> Well I guess it's only a dialect
  387. # [19:37] <jgraham> Tabese
  388. # [19:38] <TabAtkins> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define+demesne
  389. # [19:41] <jgraham> You don't really seem to be talking about land owned by a manor though
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  393. # [19:52] <TabAtkins> No, but it is used figuratively in that sense, in the same way "domain" is.
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  417. # [21:05] <foolip> TabAtkins: in spec references, should you be "T. Atkins", "T. Atkins Jr." or something else?
  418. # [21:06] <foolip> I just noticed http://dev.w3.org/html5/webvtt/ does both
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  421. # [21:06] <foolip> also, http://www.w3.org/TR/selectors4/ or http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors/ ?
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  425. # [21:13] <TabAtkins> foolip: Tab Atkins Jr
  426. # [21:14] <foolip> TabAtkins: what about in specs where everyone else is on the form "H. Lie" etc?
  427. # [21:14] <TabAtkins> I'm inconsistent in whether I put a Jr on my name.
  428. # [21:14] <TabAtkins> That's just an artifact of the biblio generation script.
  429. # [21:15] <foolip> unfortunately not in the case of webvtt or e.g. html, it's abbreviated in the source
  430. # [21:16] <foolip> but I'll take that as "include Jr"
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  432. # [21:16] <foolip> how about the selectors ref?
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  439. # [21:46] <foolip> TabAtkins: ^
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  444. # [22:05] <annevk> foolip: euhm, no TR/!
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  446. # [22:14] <foolip> annevk: right, but see https://github.com/w3c/webvtt/commit/c7c658fd914e4e196f462fd49fbd30603fe76503
  447. # [22:14] <annevk> o_O
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  449. # [22:15] <foolip> there's also http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors4/
  450. # [22:16] <foolip> annevk: are you going to link IndexSizeError and friends in DOM to their new home in WebIDL?
  451. # [22:16] <foolip> I just noticed the IndexSizeError in WebVTT was broken
  452. # [22:16] <annevk> foolip: I xref throw from DOM
  453. # [22:16] <annevk> foolip: I don't xref the individual errors
  454. # [22:17] <annevk> foolip: I suspect I might start doing that again one day by having TabAtkins support it in Bikeshed
  455. # [22:17] <foolip> I see
  456. # [22:18] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@109.201.152.243) (Quit: Leaving.)
  457. # [22:18] * TabAtkins is at lunch right now
  458. # [22:18] <annevk> TabAtkins: we can wait an hour :p
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  464. # [22:49] <Domenic> Why do you have to do new WheelEvent("wheel", ...)?
  465. # [22:49] <Domenic> that first parameter seems useless...
  466. # [22:52] <foolip> Domenic: some (most?) event interfaces have multiple events
  467. # [22:52] <foolip> I'm guessing it's new MouseEvent("mousedown", ...) etc
  468. # [22:53] <Domenic> Ah right, that makes sense
  469. # [22:54] <Domenic> You could imagine nicer designs but OK.
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  471. # [23:02] <caitp> domenic, how would you rate the web-compat for Symbol.toStringTag (and related semantics based on it)?
  472. # [23:23] <foolip> TabAtkins: you should add Jr. to http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-values/ ?
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  474. # [23:41] <annevk> Domenic: the name/type of an event is very much distinct of its class
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  481. # Session Close: Sun Oct 19 00:00:00 2014

The end :)