/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-10-28 / end

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  308. # [15:43] <annevk> http://arewefastyet.com/ what's v8-turbofan?
  309. # [15:44] <wanderview> annevk: http://ariya.ofilabs.com/2014/08/javascript-and-v8-turbofan.html
  310. # [15:45] <annevk> wanderview: ta
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  330. # [16:38] <Ms2ger> If people are bored at TPAC, they can review my wpt PRs
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  339. # [17:01] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/2006/WSC/ "As of 13 August 2010, the Working Group is closed."
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  341. # [17:02] <annevk> That group published http://www.w3.org/TR/wsc-ui/ which could use some maintenance if we are to use it as an actual building block...
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  355. # [17:42] <Philip`> (Ah, TPAC? I guess that explains why I saw someone with a W3C T-shirt on a plane to SFO a couple of days ago)
  356. # [17:42] * Philip` was curious about that
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  360. # [17:56] <hober> hsivonen: so yeah, that happened
  361. # [17:56] <zcorpan_> darobin: should html-differences be a Note?
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  363. # [17:56] <darobin> zcorpan_: yes please
  364. # [17:58] <zcorpan_> hmm, what should sotd say for notes
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  368. # [18:02] <JonathanNeal> The native implementation of Array.from in Firefox throws errors on lengths greater than the specified min/max (like Infinity and negative numbers) http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-tolength
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  371. # [18:03] <JonathanNeal> But do you think, for things like Infinity and negative numbers they are onto something?
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  373. # [18:08] <zcorpan_> http://www.w3.org/TR/html/
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  380. # [18:13] <JonathanNeal> there it is
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  382. # [18:19] <Domenic> Your /TR/ URLs are not welcome here
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  385. # [18:25] <myakura> http://www.w3.org/TR/html/references.html#refsURL
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  389. # [18:34] <Domenic> such a mess
  390. # [18:34] <Domenic> that whole non-normative green text box and then a link to a spec that is ridiculously old and inaccurate at the bottom
  391. # [18:34] <SimonSapin> darobin: Does RF only apply from REC?
  392. # [18:34] <Hixie> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA with all the bitching about not being able to reference an unstable reference they still did it anyway
  393. # [18:35] <Domenic> they didn't really
  394. # [18:35] <Hixie> they referenced a WD
  395. # [18:35] <Hixie> their definition of "unstable"
  396. # [18:35] <Domenic> oh lol yeah
  397. # [18:36] <Hixie> omg, they actually included the following in their "final" "finished" html5:
  398. # [18:36] <Hixie> "This section describes a security model that is underdefined, imperfect, and does not match implementations. Work is ongoing to attempt to resolve this, but in the meantime, please do not rely on this section for precision."
  399. # [18:36] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/TR/html/browsers.html#security-window
  400. # [18:39] <Hixie> "At time of publication of this document, patches from the WHATWG HTML specification have been merged until revision 8152 inclusive"
  401. # [18:39] <Hixie> r8152: 2013-08-22
  402. # [18:40] <Hixie> it's literally over a year behind
  403. # [18:42] <annevk> www.w3.org/TR/html/references.html#refsMIMESNIFF
  404. # [18:43] <annevk> so anyway
  405. # [18:44] <Hixie> man
  406. # [18:44] <annevk> hober: man that response email is so painful
  407. # [18:44] <Hixie> do a view source on that page
  408. # [18:44] <Hixie> and search for "whatwg"
  409. # [18:44] <Hixie> it's hard to believe that they're not just explicitly targetting the whatwg
  410. # [18:44] * Joins: bnicholson2 (~bnicholso@2620:101:80fc:224:8517:d573:db3b:4a82)
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  413. # [18:45] <annevk> they are
  414. # [18:45] <JonathanNeal> So, hgroup really is dead, at last, again, for now.
  415. # [18:45] <wilhelm_> Oh. REC. How surprising.
  416. # [18:46] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/#the-hgroup-element
  417. # [18:46] <annevk> http://www.cnet.com/news/html5-is-done-but-two-groups-still-wrestle-over-webs-future/ about URLs
  418. # [18:46] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: continues to not be dead
  419. # [18:46] * annevk hasn't read it yet
  420. # [18:46] * annevk but is quoted
  421. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> Hixie: What's the WD ref?
  422. # [18:49] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@46-127-136-57.dynamic.hispeed.ch) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  424. # [18:50] <Hixie> TabAtkins: url
  425. # [18:51] <gsnedders> SteveF_: sorry for not getting back to you; ended up at my parents and have had my niece climbing all over me :)
  426. # [18:51] * Quits: benjamingr (uid23465@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ydjkrzfyyyqsebca) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
  427. # [18:51] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: and yes, REC is needed for the patent policy to kick in, which is stupid with earlier calls for implementation
  428. # [18:52] * annevk_ is now known as annevk
  429. # [18:52] <zcorpan_> Hixie: unstable w3c is better than stable whatwg with a long title
  430. # [18:53] <SteveF_> gsnedders: no problem got a quote from TBL instead ;-)
  431. # [18:53] <Hixie> zcorpan_: both are as bad as each other
  432. # [18:54] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  433. # [18:54] <gsnedders> SteveF_: :)
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  436. # [18:55] <gsnedders> SteveF_: seems that most of what I'd started to write was said by others, at least. :)
  437. # [18:55] <Hixie> "From my perspective, there's no animosity" is so... something
  438. # [18:55] <Hixie> (quote from jeff in http://www.cnet.com/news/html5-is-done-but-two-groups-still-wrestle-over-webs-future/)
  439. # [18:56] <gsnedders> how far from NN4 was the original Moz code release?
  440. # [18:59] <wilhelm_> Conveniently published juuust in time for the AC meeting.
  441. # [19:00] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@12.199.206.2) (Quit: tantek)
  442. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> According to my nametag I'm an AC Rep now.
  443. # [19:03] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no)
  444. # [19:03] <annevk> Hixie: he's consistent
  445. # [19:03] <wilhelm_> How convenient. Being a piece of furniture also grants access, apparently.
  446. # [19:04] <annevk> Hixie: but afaik he's also one of the people who keeps this feud going by e.g. making a big fuss when HTML5 tried to reference some WHATWG work
  447. # [19:04] <Hixie> annevk: no kidding
  448. # [19:05] <Hixie> annevk: so much two facedness. so wow.
  449. # [19:05] <annevk> Hixie: whereas any reference that did not say WHATWG but is still broken he couldn't care less about
  450. # [19:05] <annevk> it's hearsay I guess, but I doubt he can deny it
  451. # [19:05] <Hixie> oh he can deny anything
  452. # [19:06] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no)
  453. # [19:06] <Hixie> since truth isn't a prereq to anything he says
  454. # [19:10] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  455. # [19:11] <gsnedders> Hixie: lists.whatwg.org down?
  456. # [19:11] * Joins: zdobersek (~zan@46.166.186.217)
  457. # [19:11] <annevk> gsnedders: DreamHost doesn't support TLS
  458. # [19:11] <gsnedders> so how do I get to it?
  459. # [19:12] <gsnedders> and why is it still showing up in Google results if it's permamentally down? :(
  460. # [19:12] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@12.199.206.2)
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  463. # [19:15] <Hixie> gsnedders: clear your cache (hsts cache specifically) and then it'll work until you visit another whatwg.org url
  464. # [19:15] <Hixie> gsnedders: but generally speaking we're pretending that host is down
  465. # [19:15] <gsnedders> :(
  466. # [19:16] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@173.116.12.204)
  467. # [19:16] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Use the w3c archives for it isntea.d
  468. # [19:18] <gsnedders> but they don't show up in the Google results! :P
  469. # [19:18] <Hixie> they should
  470. # [19:19] <Hixie> and do for me
  471. # [19:19] <annevk> really need DreamHost to get their act together
  472. # [19:20] * Joins: BigBangUDR (~Thunderbi@115.247.255.167)
  473. # [19:21] * Hixie fixes bugs in the WHATWG HTML Living Standard while the w3c pats itself on the back for finishing html
  474. # [19:21] <Hixie> la la la
  475. # [19:21] * Quits: BigBangUDR (~Thunderbi@115.247.255.167) (Client Quit)
  476. # [19:21] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: your reply was particularly useful. http://html5doctor.com/the-ride-to-5/
  477. # [19:22] <Hixie> TabAtkins: is !important in ua.css defined yet?
  478. # [19:22] <TabAtkins> Yeah
  479. # [19:22] <TabAtkins> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-cascade/#cascade-origin
  480. # [19:24] <Hixie> ah, neat
  481. # [19:24] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: did you find out from your name tag?
  482. # [19:25] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: ???
  483. # [19:25] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: “According to my nametag I'm an AC Rep now.”
  484. # [19:25] <Hixie> TabAtkins: and transition declarations can't transition through values that are statically ua !important, right?
  485. # [19:26] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Sure they can. But if the starting point is ua-important, it can't change, except through other ua-important rules.
  486. # [19:26] <Hixie> TabAtkins: that's what i mean
  487. # [19:26] <Hixie> TabAtkins: k
  488. # [19:27] * Hixie grabs a bag of !important to sprinkle over the html spec's UA stylesheet
  489. # [19:27] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Try not to, plzkthx
  490. # [19:28] <Hixie> well specifically i'm converting prose to css rules
  491. # [19:28] <Hixie> should be purely an editorial change
  492. # [19:28] <TabAtkins> We only use UA-important for things that are forced to a given value for compat reasons, because it wasn't previously settable.
  493. # [19:28] <TabAtkins> Ok.
  494. # [19:28] <zcorpan_> !important all the things
  495. # [19:30] <SteveF_> gsndders: better late...
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  498. # [19:31] <SteveF_> gsnedders: ^^ :-)
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  501. # [19:32] <wilhelm_> I wonder if there's any way to give Jeff the political tool of _perceived_ progress without turning REC into an even bigger joke than it already is.
  502. # [19:34] <wilhelm_> The use cases of a spec as 1) technical specification and 2) a political tool are, uh, somewhat conflicting.
  503. # [19:35] <gsnedders> SteveF_: in response to my comment? heh. it's easier when I can cut out half of my draft because Henri already said it :)
  504. # [19:36] <gsnedders> SteveF_: and I knew it was too long like that, so… :)
  505. # [19:36] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@12.199.206.2)
  506. # [19:36] <Hixie> so tempting to post a blog entry announcing that we've finished HTML r8842
  507. # [19:37] <Hixie> then an hour later that we've finished HTML r8843...
  508. # [19:42] <TabAtkins> DO IT
  509. # [19:43] <Domenic> http://www.cnet.com/news/html5-is-done-but-two-groups-still-wrestle-over-webs-future/ is good
  510. # [19:43] <hober> Hixie: that would be hysterical; please do
  511. # [19:43] <Domenic> yes please
  512. # [19:43] <Domenic> i still need a streams standard blog post hrm
  513. # [19:43] <wilhelm_> :D
  514. # [19:43] <Domenic> should work on that
  515. # [19:43] * Joins: KevinMarks_ (~KevinMark@12.199.206.2)
  516. # [19:44] <Domenic> unrelated topic, any svg experts know how to center text vertically in a <rect> without guessing-and-checking the correct y offset?
  517. # [19:44] <cwilso> Hixie: I am fully supportive of you implementing a press release bot...
  518. # [19:44] <Domenic> MikeSmith: love your quote in http://html5doctor.com/the-ride-to-5/ ^_^
  519. # [19:44] <annevk> Hixie: you asked http://www.w3.org/blog/news/archives/4167 to not mention WHATWG, right?
  520. # [19:45] <gsnedders> cwilso: Probably could come up with some sort of NLG tool that actually did pretty well as press releases. They're typically so dry…
  521. # [19:45] <annevk> Haven't seen a single thing so far acknowledging who wrote all that text
  522. # [19:47] <annevk> Hixie: not sure it makes sense to publish anything now
  523. # [19:47] <annevk> Hixie: seems a bit reactionary
  524. # [19:47] <Hixie> i was just saying it was tempting, not that i'd actually do it :-P
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  527. # [19:48] <Hixie> it boggles my mind that they just published a fork that's over a year old
  528. # [19:48] <annevk> okidoki, I'd be tempted too with the amount of self-congratulating the W3C seems to be doing for something that's essentially copied
  529. # [19:49] <Hixie> it's like, wat
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  531. # [19:50] <annevk> It being a year old does not explain the MIMESNIFF reference
  532. # [19:51] <annevk> "Application Foundations for the Open Web Platform"
  533. # [19:52] * Joins: KevinMarks (~yaaic@12.199.206.2)
  534. # [19:53] <annevk> Ah, Application Foundations is the new word for Technology Stack https://hsivonen.fi/technology-stack/
  535. # [19:57] * Joins: kuatsure (~kuatsure@208.102.142.209)
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  538. # [19:59] <cwilso> Actually, I think Jeff is using "Application Foundations" as a name for "EVERYTHING".
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  542. # [20:00] <Domenic> that is my impression as well
  543. # [20:00] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@12.199.206.2)
  544. # [20:01] <annevk> Hixie: heh, they don't even use the https link for that revision
  545. # [20:01] <annevk> cwilso: sounds like Technology Stack (although it curiously omitted HTML)
  546. # [20:03] <annevk> So "HTML5" is close to 700 revisions behind "HTML"
  547. # [20:03] * Quits: darobin (~darobin@12.199.206.2) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  548. # [20:03] <cwilso> annevk: "Haven't seen a single thing so far acknowledging who wrote all that text" - the press release does personally thank Hixie first, as well as WHATWG; Rec has Hixie first as WHATWG editor. You can complain that they're copying, but I'm not sure what more attribution you're looking for.
  549. # [20:03] <annevk> I feel sorry for all the people that start reading it as the result of this press release
  550. # [20:04] <cwilso> annevk: yeah, it's kinda technology stack but it has omissions and odd inclusions.
  551. # [20:04] <annevk> cwilso: sorry, I missed that press release? I was looking at http://www.w3.org/blog/news/archives/4167
  552. # [20:04] <Hixie> attribution really isn't the issue imho
  553. # [20:04] <cwilso> Click "press release" on that blog post.
  554. # [20:05] <Hixie> they published a document that's literally over a year old and is missing hundreds of fixes
  555. # [20:05] <Hixie> and they call it "done"
  556. # [20:05] <Hixie> wtf is that
  557. # [20:05] <annevk> As for the Application Foundations stuff, not clear to me why Jeff would try to steer something like that...
  558. # [20:05] <Hixie> it's irresponsible
  559. # [20:05] <cwilso> Hixie: yeah, I know. That's what I mean.
  560. # [20:05] <Domenic> https://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker should probably link to the actual spec it's tracking
  561. # [20:05] <cwilso> annevk: heh. +1.
  562. # [20:05] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@205.158.164.101.ptr.us.xo.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  563. # [20:06] * annevk had to look up seminal
  564. # [20:06] <cwilso> fwiw, I'm sure Jeff knows that he's not "steering" it - he's just hoping he can convince it to be done under the W3C umbrella.
  565. # [20:06] * Domenic throws his hands up in disgust and gives up on vertically centering text in a SVG
  566. # [20:07] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@lk.84.20.237.54.dc.cable.static.lj-kabel.net)
  567. # [20:07] <annevk> "The WHATWG, for all of their contributions to HTML." uhuh
  568. # [20:07] * cwilso wonders which definition they had in mind.
  569. # [20:08] <Domenic> annevk: hey now, take that in the spirit it was meant, even if the circumstances surrounding it are putrid.
  570. # [20:09] <annevk> Domenic: or the placement in that list?
  571. # [20:09] <Domenic> yep
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  577. # [20:10] <annevk> It's somewhat annoying to have to accept that those with more resources can effectively rewrite history
  578. # [20:10] <annevk> I'll get there
  579. # [20:11] <cwilso> y'know, part of what frustrates ME so much about this (ongoing) conversation is that no one should be questioning the value of the contribution of the various members of the WHATWG - Hixie's contributions most of all, of course. HTML wouldn't be anywhere near where it is today without his work, nor many other WHATWG members. But if you're waiting for the
  580. # [20:11] <cwilso> W3C to agree that HTML just belongs to WHATWG now, I think you'll be waiting a long time. So you can either fight that - hard to do, when you want to enable forking just not by the W3C - or figure out how to have a long-term partnership.
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  583. # [20:13] <annevk> The only way to get a partnership with Jeff Jaffe is if the WHATWG would become subservient to the W3C
  584. # [20:13] <annevk> I have tried at great length
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  587. # [20:15] <Domenic> FWIW I tried this as well with URL :(
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  590. # [20:16] <annevk> He would love nothing more than for the WHATWG to disappear
  591. # [20:16] <annevk> He may or may not deny that
  592. # [20:16] <wilhelm_> There are two partly overlapping, partly conflicting uses for this spec. It seems to me that W3C are using the REC rubber stamp as a plot device to sell the web platform as a stable, safe bet for risk-averse organizations.
  593. # [20:16] <cwilso> I don't actually believe that, btw. But I'd flip that statement and say that the only way to get a partnership with the WHATWG appears to be to become subservient to it, as well. In terms of not having governance/escalation path, patent policy, etc.
  594. # [20:17] <annevk> The WHATWG is happy to work with the W3C. E.g. when the W3C picked up the ball on DOM Parsing & Serialization, we didn't call our year-old version done, but instead installed a redirect
  595. # [20:17] <wilhelm_> With that as a goal, the actual content of the spec is somewhat irrelevant. This is a political game, not a quest for interoperable implementations.
  596. # [20:18] <cwilso> But you don't want to do that in other areas, and certainly not the flagship of HTML.
  597. # [20:18] <annevk> cwilso: why wouldn't we?
  598. # [20:18] <annevk> cwilso: actually, large parts of HTML have been taken over in some form or other
  599. # [20:19] <annevk> cwilso: e.g. WebRTC, the WebSocket protocol by the IETF
  600. # [20:19] <cwilso> wilhelm_ I don't think it's a plot device, but sure, it should be an indication that HTML is more stable than it was a couple of years ago. I think it has built up to be a far greater "milestone" than it should be considered.
  601. # [20:19] <cwilso> annevk: why is it okay for those parts to be subjected to the W3C, but not others?
  602. # [20:21] <annevk> cwilso: again, who says it's not?
  603. # [20:21] <cwilso> Well, you seem offended that the W3C still wants to work on the core HTML spec. Or URL.
  604. # [20:22] <annevk> I'm offended that they copy
  605. # [20:22] <annevk> If they did actual work it would be a different story
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  608. # [20:25] <cwilso> I think their "copying" can fall in two categories - 1) A stable direct copy of a WHATWG spec, which frankly if you'd just go along with having stable references that point people to the living work but don't change themselves, but don't say "this is for lawyercats only" at the top, probably wouldn't need -
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  610. # [20:27] <annevk> Domenic: suggestions welcome for where to put the URL https://github.com/whatwg/web-apps-tracker
  611. # [20:27] <Domenic> annevk: even if just "HTML standard" was a link
  612. # [20:28] <annevk> Domenic: wouldn't that be confusing with it being a link from the revision pages?
  613. # [20:28] <Domenic> annevk: ah didn't realize that that became a link on subpages
  614. # [20:28] <annevk> cwilso: not sure everything came through
  615. # [20:29] <cwilso> 2) actual work happening inside the W3C, whether that's due to people who have been disenfranchised in the WHATWG or those who just can't work there (e.g. for patent policy reasons like MSFT)
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  617. # [20:29] <cwilso> (sorry, still typing)
  618. # [20:29] <Domenic> annevk: Maybe "See the latest revision at https://html.spec.whatwg.org/" underneath the header.
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  620. # [20:30] <cwilso> I think 1) should be resolvable with some compromise on both sides. 2) is harder.
  621. # [20:31] <cwilso> woop, [afk:lunch]
  622. # [20:32] <annevk> Domenic: added a link
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  626. # [20:33] <annevk> cwilso: it is somewhat frustrating that nobody thus far has made an actual compelling case around the stable reference thing
  627. # [20:34] <annevk> cwilso: I mean yes, we can do that and we probably will since it's useful sometimes to look at older copies
  628. # [20:34] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.28.249)
  629. # [20:34] <annevk> cwilso: but the argument usually boils down to "you don't understand"
  630. # [20:35] <Domenic> annevk: thanks, now https://twitter.com/domenic/status/527174136125067264 works better.
  631. # [20:35] <annevk> heh https://twitter.com/w3cmemes/status/527179540196786177
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  633. # [20:35] <annevk> #whatwg always wins from AC meetings
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  660. # [21:28] <safinaskar> hi. i see in news that w3c published final html5. so, now w3c's html5 is fixed, but whatwg's living html will continue to change, right?
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  667. # [21:42] <Domenic> safinaskar: yep
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  670. # [21:43] <Domenic> safinaskar: the original WHATWG HTML living standard will continue to be updated with bugfixes, new features, better tracking of implementations, etc.
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  672. # [21:43] <Domenic> safinaskar: the W3C's HTML5 is based on a year-old copy of the HTML living standard, so there are already a lot of missing commits in that regard.
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  682. # [21:47] <zcorpan> today is an awesome day
  683. # [21:47] <zcorpan> i received chocolate from MikeSmith
  684. # [21:48] <Domenic> he is, after all, out of bubblegum
  685. # [21:49] <cwilso> annevk: loved that meme, but s/argument/conversation. :)
  686. # [21:50] * sgalineau now understands what AC meetings are for
  687. # [21:50] * sgalineau has been an AC rep all along
  688. # [21:50] <cwilso> on stable references: I think it's about coalescing stability in the spec, and providing a "good enough target to ship". Google's generally pretty okay with breaking things for good reason, particularly since we ship again in six weeks if we messed it up. It's a lot harder when your ship cycle is a couple of years.
  689. # [21:51] * sgalineau '...a couple of years' <shudders-at-repressed-memories />
  690. # [21:51] <cwilso> sgalineau: AC meetings are for getting email done, I thought? ;)
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  692. # [21:52] <Hixie> cwilso: i tried so hard i was actually editing the w3c fork for a while, as you well know since you were chair at the time. Things got worse during my tenure as editor, and despite significant efforts, I was unable to reach a point where i was happy that the w3c's efforts were aligned with the health of the web, and i quit.
  693. # [21:52] <Hixie> cwilso: (re you saying we should try to find common ground)
  694. # [21:52] <sgalineau> cwilso: I could use some dedicated meme editing time. I guess I should try and convince Carl to let me have a go.
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  696. # [21:54] <annevk> cwilso: it seems the W3C is not setting such an example with its stable references
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  698. # [21:55] <cwilso> Hixie: I'm not in any way shape or form suggesting you have not put forth an effort. And given my experience as chair, I certainly couldn't recommend any other course of action at the time.
  699. # [21:55] <annevk> cwilso: e.g. http://www.w3.org/TR/html/browsers.html#security-window
  700. # [21:55] <annevk> cwilso: also, such a hypothetical browser company would have to release its browser in tandem with these "stable specifications"
  701. # [21:55] <cwilso> or after, actually.
  702. # [21:56] <annevk> cwilso: and not be interested in bug fixes caught in the window after the "stable specification" was published and before the browser was released
  703. # [21:56] <annevk> cwilso: however, there hasn't been such a product
  704. # [21:56] <cwilso> You're being pedantic. There's a difference between bug fixing a stable specification and adding new features, yes?
  705. # [21:57] <annevk> cwilso: no, often new features require refactoring
  706. # [21:57] <cwilso> "there hasn't been such a product" => browser company with 2 year release cycles?
  707. # [21:57] <cwilso> indeed they do...
  708. # [21:57] <annevk> cwilso: e.g. service workers require every specification that does some form of fetching to be written in terms of Fetch
  709. # [21:57] * sgalineau grabs popcorn
  710. # [21:57] <zcorpan> safinaskar: HTML r8843 will never change
  711. # [21:57] <cwilso> Yep, that's gonna take a while to make happen...
  712. # [21:58] <sgalineau> zcorpan: we have always been at war with HTML r8843
  713. # [21:58] <annevk> cwilso: a browser that synchronizes its release cycle with W3C TR/ REC publications and only implements those (or IETF RFCs; I guess they wouldn't wait for IETF STDs)
  714. # [21:58] <cwilso> sgalineau: LOFL!!!!!
  715. # [21:59] <Hixie> cwilso: after a few years trying many different approaches and repeatedly experiencing being lied to, misled, treated with no respect, having one's requests ignored or dismissed, and generally being met with disingenuous discussion, there comes a point at which one must cut one's losses.
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  717. # [21:59] <cwilso> come on, anne, _I_ never said synchronized release cycles. Don't put words in my mouth. (Though certainly, I had managers at times in IE who expected that what I would make happen for them is getting a standard released on the day they shipped that reflected IE's behavior.)
  718. # [22:00] <annevk> cwilso: it's just not realistic and has never been the case
  719. # [22:00] * sgalineau does not understand why the lack of software synchronized with any spec proves something
  720. # [22:00] <annevk> cwilso: IE implements drafts as much as the next browser
  721. # [22:00] <annevk> cwilso: that some guy in management doesn't understand software engineering ultimately doesn't matter
  722. # [22:01] <cwilso> (I agree that is totally unrealistic, and told them so at the time)
  723. # [22:02] <annevk> sgalineau: cwilso made the case for snapshots based on products with slow release cycles
  724. # [22:02] <cwilso> I don't think "IE implements drafts as much as the next browser", though - though this may change if they truly do ship more.
  725. # [22:02] <annevk> sgalineau: I argue that even products with slow release cycles will want to implement drafts
  726. # [22:03] <sgalineau> annevk: some drafts yes. but they still prioritize the stable stuff that existing apps depend on a great deal
  727. # [22:03] <annevk> cwilso: they give feedback on WHATWG documents
  728. # [22:03] <sgalineau> annevk: the number of drafts considered is far larger than the number of drafts implemented, to put it mildly
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  730. # [22:04] <annevk> (note that "stable stuff" doesn't depend on snapshots, something is stable if it's implemented widely, let's not confuse the two)
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  732. # [22:05] <cwilso> So why are you putting that cart before the horse? Why isn't that stable (as defined by "set of features implemented widely) set of features a "snapshot"? Why is it indistinguishable from the set of stuff that happens to be present in the HTML living standard(TM) as of r8843?
  733. # [22:05] <annevk> sgalineau: I guess if you're playing catch up that's true
  734. # [22:06] <cwilso> hah
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  736. # [22:06] <cwilso> no, even if you're not.
  737. # [22:06] <sgalineau> annevk: I think doing the stable stuff well, fast, securely, etc. matters even if you're not catching up
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  739. # [22:06] <annevk> cwilso: because there's no such thing as truly stable
  740. # [22:07] <annevk> cwilso: everything is constantly getting refactored
  741. # [22:07] <cwilso> so there shouldn't be any indication of stability?
  742. # [22:07] <cwilso> I disagree with "constantly".
  743. # [22:07] <annevk> cwilso: perhaps
  744. # [22:07] <cwilso> Sure, the HTML"5" spec is wildly different than HTML3.2, and factored "a bit" differently.
  745. # [22:08] <cwilso> :) But that doesn't mean you're reinventing the world every month.
  746. # [22:08] <annevk> cwilso: no, but e.g. with Fetch I often notice we need additional flags or features
  747. # [22:09] <annevk> cwilso: if I also had to maintain some kind of snapshot and try to keep everything sane I would go mad
  748. # [22:10] <annevk> cwilso: HTML is so different from HTML3.2 that you would not implement the latter if you started today
  749. # [22:11] <annevk> cwilso: Living Standards just make that a little more clear and less dependent on high-level "Plan 2014" SDO planning
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  753. # [22:12] * tantek grabs some metaphorical popcorn and reads the scrollback.
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  759. # [22:15] <tantek> ah, that was far too rational an exchange. /me goes back to W3C IRC...
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  761. # [22:15] <annevk> cwilso: as far as experience goes, I tried the above with XMLHttpRequest btw
  762. # [22:16] <annevk> cwilso: we had XMLHttpRequest Level 1, which was "stable", and XMLHttpRequest Level 2, which had the new stuff
  763. # [22:16] <cwilso> tantek: sorry to disappoint. :)
  764. # [22:16] <annevk> cwilso: I reached a point where it no longer worked
  765. # [22:16] <sgalineau> tantek: I know. I'm sitting here with all this popcorn watching web standard CSPAN. Awkward.
  766. # [22:16] <annevk> cwilso: then the W3C appointed 3 people to replace me
  767. # [22:16] <annevk> cwilso: I think they now reached the point where they have found it to not work
  768. # [22:16] <annevk> cwilso: and they didn't even try to solve any of the problems with the text
  769. # [22:16] <annevk> cwilso: though hallvors did improve my original test suite quite a bit
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  771. # [22:17] <wilhelm_> annevk: A feature set may be somewhat stable, even if the spec prose is in flux.
  772. # [22:18] <annevk> wilhelm_: yup
  773. # [22:18] <wilhelm_> I can see value in giving a certain feature set a name ("2", "5"). I see no value in stale snapshots.
  774. # [22:18] <annevk> wilhelm_: and the less you look at the details, the more stability you find
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  776. # [22:18] <annevk> wilhelm_: you can even find stability in text that's 700 commits behind apparently
  777. # [22:19] <annevk> wilhelm_: and get 60 or so companies to sign off on it
  778. # [22:19] <gsnedders> you do need some sort of stability for patent grants
  779. # [22:19] <gsnedders> but probably not /that/ sort of stability
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  781. # [22:19] <wilhelm_> gsnedders: Yes, but we could in theory do stability on a feature set level.
  782. # [22:20] <annevk> It might be better if the patent grants were on MDN text
  783. # [22:21] <wilhelm_> Yes. A somewhat abstract description of what an API does.
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  787. # [22:23] <gsnedders> not sure that's good enough for some of the stuff around canvas, for example
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  789. # [22:24] <gsnedders> given there are quite a lot of very specific graphics patents
  790. # [22:29] <cwilso> gsnedders: not, you do need PRECISELY that sort of stability for patent grants. It's effectively a legal contract, so it must be stable.
  791. # [22:29] <cwilso> Oh yeah, and annevk: http://www.w3.org/TR/html/browsers.html#security-window that's BRILLIANT.
  792. # [22:29] <safinaskar> afaik, you (i. e. whatwg) don't like "releases" of the html standard. why? i think it is good to release versions of the standard. this allows to write in the first line of a html document particular version it correspond to
  793. # [22:29] * cwilso hahahaha goes to find his own popcorn
  794. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> safinaskar: The first line of your HTML document is "<!doctype html>", which doesn't have versioning info.
  795. # [22:33] * zcorpan wonders if https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20701 has been shipping for a few days by now
  796. # [22:33] <tantek> safinaskar - what's the use-case you're trying to solve?
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  798. # [22:34] <jgraham> zcorpan: A few days from November 24th I think
  799. # [22:34] <jgraham> Maybe we will get a window security model for Christmas
  800. # [22:34] <safinaskar> TabAtkins: why? i think writing some particular version in html first line would be better
  801. # [22:34] <jgraham> safinaskar: Why do you think that?
  802. # [22:35] <TabAtkins> Because browsers don't implement multiple independent versions of any spec, so referring to a specific version doesn't do anything.
  803. # [22:35] <zcorpan> jgraham: ok
  804. # [22:35] <jgraham> safinaskar: No browser is going to use that information to change behaviour
  805. # [22:35] <safinaskar> jgraham: tantek: browser can parse the first line and then decide which standard use to parse the html document
  806. # [22:35] <zcorpan> jgraham: i've always wished for a window security model
  807. # [22:35] <jgraham> safinaskar: it turns out that down that route lies madness
  808. # [22:36] <jgraham> zcorpan: I hear that it's this year's must-have item
  809. # [22:36] <tantek> safinaskar: what does that have to do with a user? what task is the user attempting to accomplish in your scenario?
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  811. # [22:37] <safinaskar> tantek: this will make all html documents (created for different versions) working and this, of course, make user happy
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  813. # [22:38] <TabAtkins> safinaskar: The closest thing we have for that is that IE ships several old rendering engines, so it can render old intranet pages that were written for IE6 in a stable way. But (a) that doesn't correspond to spec versions at any point, it's just a collection of whatever specs were implemented at the time, plus all the bugs, and (b) it's terribly painful
  814. # [22:38] <TabAtkins> for them, and literally no one else is willing to do anything like that.
  815. # [22:38] <tantek> safinaskar: based on what evidence are you asserting "this will make all html documents (created for different versions) working" and in what browsers and on what devices? how do you determine "working"?
  816. # [22:38] <tantek> with what test suite?
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  820. # [22:39] <safinaskar> in lots of situations some source code specifies its version. perl 6 scripts have "use v6" in the beginning. c code for posix 2008 have "#define _POSIX_C_SOURCE 200800L" in the beginning. html documents until html 5 had version info in the beginning. so why not?
  821. # [22:39] * cwilso crunches some more popcorn
  822. # [22:40] <wilhelm_> I'm disappointed there is no popcorn available by the coffee stations. That would be useful.
  823. # [22:40] <cwilso> wilhelm_: count yourself lucky if there's COFFEE by the coffee stations.
  824. # [22:40] <jorendorff> JonathanNeal: filinga bug against our ToLength implementation now
  825. # [22:41] <JonathanNeal> jorendorff: thanks for the response =)
  826. # [22:41] <tantek> safinaskar: since you're talking about procedural code, perhaps you should start with making these requests of Javascript first rather than HTML, which is declarative and has a very different processing model from any procedural code.
  827. # [22:41] <JonathanNeal> Out of curiousity, filing a bug against the spec or the browser?
  828. # [22:41] <wilhelm_> (c:
  829. # [22:41] <zcorpan> safinaskar: it's better to have a single implementation that handles all content
  830. # [22:41] <safinaskar> currently <!DOCTYPE html> in the beginning says that this is html 5. but after 10 years this line will say that "this is html 5 or html 6 or html 7". and this is wrong
  831. # [22:42] <jorendorff> JonathanNeal: The browser. Actually there's an existing bug on file: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=924058
  832. # [22:42] <zcorpan> safinaskar: it doesn't say "this is html5". it says "use standards mode" as opposed to "use quirks mode" (which is what you get for e.g. no doctype)
  833. # [22:43] <zcorpan> safinaskar: (quirks mode/standards mode was a mistake)
  834. # [22:43] <tantek> safinaskar - or no one will work on something called html 6 or html 7
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  836. # [22:44] <tantek> zcorpan: happy to hear your revisionist history about alternatives that could have fixed CSS box model workarounds without quirks/standards mode.
  837. # [22:44] <safinaskar> tantek: "based on what evidence" - in all browsers which support this versions
  838. # [22:45] <zcorpan> tantek: we could have opt-ins to different behavior in css instead of keying off the doctype
  839. # [22:45] <tantek> safinaskar: sounds like a tautology "support this versions" vs. "working" - you're using each to define the other = tautology.
  840. # [22:45] <SimonSapin> A tautology is when you define things tautologically.
  841. # [22:45] <tantek> zcorpan - doctype switching was the simplest and least work for web devs. and such opt-ins would have not worked for existing content.
  842. # [22:46] <tantek> (which depended on *both* behaviors separately)
  843. # [22:46] <safinaskar> zcorpan: "it's better to have a single implementation" - of course. but i think this is impossible. there always will be documents created for prev. standards
  844. # [22:47] <tantek> safinaskar: let me know when you have a test suite to propose to actually *measure* "supports" or "working" instead of a tautological assertion.
  845. # [22:49] <zcorpan> safinaskar: it's not impossible, it's what browsers have always done (except for some versions of IE)
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  848. # [22:51] <safinaskar> okey, so why programming langs has versions (c89, c99, perl5, perl6, etc) and html (at your opinion) should not?
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  851. # [22:51] <zcorpan> tantek: existing content wouldn't have depended on both behaviors if css specified the IE box model as the default from the beginning and provided an opt-in to different box model
  852. # [22:52] <tantek> zcorpan - except it was IE that diverged from the specified CSS box model, not vice versa.
  853. # [22:52] <zcorpan> tantek: so?
  854. # [22:53] <jyasskin_w> safinaskar: Not everyone thinks programming languages should have versions. e.g. MSVC supports one variant of C++, with no switch between, say, C++98, C++03, C++11, and C++14. Even most of the compilers with switches (gcc, clang) don't distinguish C++98 from C++03, in order to cut down on implementation complexity.
  855. # [22:53] <tantek> so it was too late. IE, by diverging from the spec, caused the divegence in existing content.
  856. # [22:53] <tantek> and then we had to support both
  857. # [22:53] <tantek> because both existed after IE shipped
  858. # [22:53] <tantek> wouldn't matter what you changed where
  859. # [22:56] <zcorpan> tantek: the ie box model isn't a quirk that exists in non-IE browsers' quirks modes today so it seems it is not relevant to doctype switching (anymore)
  860. # [22:58] <zcorpan> tantek: anyway, going forward we're not going to add more doctype switches, but instead have other opt-ins (e.g. a property to turn off margin collapsing)
  861. # [22:59] <tantek> zcorpan - going forward we don't have such a big split in existing content to support, so the situation is different
  862. # [23:00] <tantek> AFAIK the ie box model is *still* supported in quirks mode (interoperably even) across browsers
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  864. # [23:01] <zcorpan> tantek: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/3274 http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/3275
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  867. # [23:02] <zcorpan> tantek: quirks that have survived across browsers is basically https://quirks.spec.whatwg.org
  868. # [23:03] * sgalineau missed popcorn hour. #sigh
  869. # [23:06] <zcorpan> tantek: i'm happy to fix the history to be more accurate if you can suggest something, btw
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  871. # [23:09] <tantek> zcorpan - I don't have time to debug your live-dom-viewer examples, however I just pasted in the fragments from http://tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html for the IE box model behavior and got that
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  874. # [23:10] <tantek> if ie box model behavior was dropped at some point, I'd be interested in knowing when - as last time I checked it was still well supported. though I admit to not comprehensively checking that in a number of years.
  875. # [23:12] <tantek> (i.e. what year did that change)
  876. # [23:13] <tantek> zcorpan, re: the history, at the time, no one had any better ideas. no one had *any* other alternatives either.
  877. # [23:14] <tantek> when I did implement the first doctype switching in a shipping browser, the responses were everywhere from "that will never work" to "how did you make that work?" - and slowly more and more folks switched to using "strict" doctypes and the CSS box model.
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  881. # [23:18] <roc> Firefox never supported the IE box model, not even in quirks mode.
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  885. # [23:21] <zcorpan> roc: yeah that's my recollection also
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  890. # [23:25] <zcorpan> tantek: presto supported the ie box model until something like version 9
  891. # [23:26] <zcorpan> tantek: but gecko and webkit never did
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  918. # Session Close: Wed Oct 29 00:00:00 2014

The end :)