/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-10-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Oct 31 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:04] <wanderview> jsbell: ^^^ see above from annevk
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  15. # [00:20] <jsbell> wanderview: thx
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  23. # [00:28] <zcorpan> annevk: done
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  44. # [00:55] <wanderview> jsbell: btw, thank you very much for these tests in the first place! I've found a lot of bugs in my implementation thanks to them :-)
  45. # [00:56] <jsbell> wanderview: asanka@chromium.org authored them, I've just been reviewing/tweaking 'em
  46. # [00:56] <jsbell> but on behalf of chromium, you're welcome!
  47. # [00:57] <Domenic> wtf document.body.baseURI is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT between Chrome and Firefox
  48. # [00:57] <jsbell> wanderview: asanka@ has some of the helpers like promise_test() submitted as changes to testharness.js but they haven't been accepted yet (and we've been a little busy to pester)
  49. # [00:58] <wanderview> jsbell: well, I pinged jgraham to help me get these tests running in gecko... as a result he said he was going to go review that PR
  50. # [00:58] <jsbell> I love it when a plan comes together!
  51. # [00:59] <wanderview> :-)
  52. # [01:00] <Domenic> aaand baseURI is just plain undefined in IE11
  53. # [01:00] <Domenic> they have document.URL though! not to be confused with window.URL.
  54. # [01:00] * jgraham still has to actually do the review to make the plan come together
  55. # [01:00] <jgraham> But I think it's looking good
  56. # [01:01] <jsbell> Domenic: you say "they're all incompatible!". I hear "maybe we can delete it!"
  57. # [01:01] <jsbell> I doubt we're that lucky
  58. # [01:02] <Domenic> jsbell: I wonder if we could. Still for <custom-a> I need access to "the element's base URL"
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  60. # [01:08] <caitp> this isn't a custom elements thing because you mentioned IE11, so what is it? o_o
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  69. # [01:20] <terinjokes> does IE11 support global.URL?
  70. # [01:20] <terinjokes> s/global/window/
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  74. # [01:33] <caitp> its not URL, really
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  87. # [01:52] <JonathanNeal> Let me apologize in advance for not getting it, but is there a browser runnable version of Domenic’s Promise tests?
  88. # [01:52] <JonathanNeal> ^ https://github.com/promises-aplus/promises-tests
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  107. # [03:18] <JonathanNeal> Is there a differencee between return undefined; and return; ?
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  118. # [04:19] <roc> JonathanNeal: I think we'd like Mozilla Marketplace to work cross-browser/OS.
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  128. # [05:08] <zcorpan> JonathanNeal: no
  129. # [05:09] <JonathanNeal> zcorpan: no, there is not a browser runnable version of Domenic’s Promise tests, or no there is no difference between return; and return undefined;, or both?
  130. # [05:09] <zcorpan> the return thing
  131. # [05:09] <Domenic> caitp: it started with some custom elements stuff, then delved into discovering interop hell.
  132. # [05:10] <Domenic> terinjokes: no URL in IE11
  133. # [05:10] <Domenic> JonathanNeal: the tests are browserifyable
  134. # [05:10] <zcorpan> JonathanNeal: unless you do var undefined or something like that maybe
  135. # [05:11] <JonathanNeal> Domenic: is it obvious or do i have to do something tricky?
  136. # [05:11] <Domenic> JonathanNeal: there is a difference in certain scenarios e.g. `function f(undefined) { return undefined; } f(5);` or `function (undefined){ /* ... 100s of lines later ... */ function g() { return undefined; /* will return 5 */ } /* ... more code here ... */ }(5)
  137. # [05:11] <Domenic> JonathanNeal: if you've used browserify before should be pretty simple
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  140. # [05:49] <JonathanNeal> Interesting, IE10’s Object.create method does not assign the correct prototype.
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  170. # [08:25] <annevk> Domenic: note that hopefully only document.baseURI is important going forward
  171. # [08:25] <annevk> Domenic: document.body.baseURI will just return that value (if we need to preserve the propery)
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  175. # [08:32] <annevk> MikeSmith: I closed it, but I notice now that https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27202 is spam
  176. # [08:32] <annevk> MikeSmith: see the URL field
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  247. # [12:46] <erlehmann> https://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-November/033914.html does not redirect to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2011Nov/0186.html
  248. # [12:46] <erlehmann> and it is not in the wayback machine
  249. # [12:46] <erlehmann> this breaks a link on https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3264074
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  251. # [12:50] <annevk> We don't have an easy way of fixing that
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  257. # [12:57] <erlehmann> annevk what is it about lists.whatwg.org?
  258. # [12:57] <erlehmann> is it gone?
  259. # [12:58] <annevk> erlehmann: it's not accessible over TLS
  260. # [13:00] <erlehmann> but it was? i see.
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  266. # [13:26] <Ms2ger> ...
  267. # [13:26] <Ms2ger> Chrome has a quirk in option.text
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  288. # [14:12] <Ms2ger> And IE throws on document.createElement("option").label
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  292. # [14:22] <annevk> Film at 11?
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  301. # [14:59] <Domenic> annevk: curious in what situations they can be different
  302. # [15:00] <Domenic> annevk: although I guess per spec it seems like "the element's base URL" and "the document's base URL" are the same.
  303. # [15:00] <Ms2ger> xml:base
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  305. # [15:01] <Domenic> right -_-
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  314. # [15:12] <annevk> Domenic: the plan is to nuke xml:base
  315. # [15:12] <annevk> Domenic: there's various open bugs on browsers
  316. # [15:12] <annevk> Domenic: most browsers don't really respect it...
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  318. # [15:14] <erlehmann> what is with normal base element?
  319. # [15:14] <annevk> erlehmann: that sets the document's base URL
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  321. # [15:15] <annevk> (and it would be nice if it didn't exist or was not dynamic at least, but...)
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  326. # [15:19] <annevk> Domenic: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20976 has my rough plan for replacing the current base URL setup, but I'm waiting for either Chrome or Firefox to remove their remaining xml:base support
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  328. # [15:21] <Domenic> annevk: I just wonder if we can fix chrome's baseURI property to return something sensible
  329. # [15:22] <Domenic> wait ... this morning/on my home computer it's being not-retarded... was i hallucinating? will report back when in the office
  330. # [15:22] <annevk> Domenic: make it return the associated document's base URL...
  331. # [15:23] <Domenic> No wait it's retarded in Canary even on this computer...
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  333. # [15:26] <Domenic> https://www.dropbox.com/s/hfba5zwbv9ti30y/Screenshot%202014-10-31%2010.25.13.png?dl=0
  334. # [15:28] <annevk> Domenic: fascinating
  335. # [15:28] <annevk> Domenic: Firefox has about:newtab
  336. # [15:28] <Domenic> Yeah seems Chrome opens up a google.com page that uses AppCache
  337. # [15:29] <Domenic> In yesterday's cursory testing Firefox had sensible baseURI values, Chrome did the weird filename + querystring thing, and IE gave undefined.
  338. # [15:29] <Domenic> This discovery that Chrome 38 gives sensible values too is new
  339. # [15:30] <annevk> Hmm, VMWare is broken in OS X 10.10
  340. # [15:31] <annevk> If IE returns undefined, can we do away with baseURI? Would be too good to be true I'm sure
  341. # [15:33] <Domenic> OMG
  342. # [15:33] <Domenic> OMG
  343. # [15:33] <Domenic> OMG
  344. # [15:33] <Domenic> Developer tools is fucking with me
  345. # [15:33] <Domenic> document.baseURI
  346. # [15:33] <Domenic> "newtab?espv=2&ie=UTF-8:1"
  347. # [15:33] <Domenic> "hello" + document.baseURI
  348. # [15:33] <Domenic> "hellohttps://www.google.com/_/chrome/newtab?espv=2&ie=UTF-8"
  349. # [15:34] <annevk> o_O
  350. # [15:34] <ondras> :-)
  351. # [15:34] <erlehmann> lelele
  352. # [15:35] <erlehmann> ondras
  353. # [15:35] <erlehmann> lest we meet again
  354. # [15:35] <ondras> :-)
  355. # [15:36] * ondras has been idling on this channel for ages
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  357. # [15:36] <erlehmann> never seen you befor
  358. # [15:36] <erlehmann> JonathanNeal how about the table sortable polyfill?
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  360. # [15:37] <erlehmann> document.baseURI
  361. # [15:37] <erlehmann> "https://www.google.de/_/chrome/newtab?espv=2&ie=UTF-8"
  362. # [15:37] <erlehmann> 'hello'+document.baseURI
  363. # [15:37] <erlehmann> "hellohttps://www.google.de/_/chrome/newtab?espv=2&ie=UTF-8"
  364. # [15:37] <JonathanNeal> erlehmann: what about it? =D
  365. # [15:37] <erlehmann> chromium Version 37.0.2062.120 Debian jessie/sid (281580)
  366. # [15:38] <erlehmann> JonathanNeal how far along is it?
  367. # [15:38] <Domenic> erlehmann: yeah it's a regression from M38
  368. # [15:38] <Domenic> https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=429178
  369. # [15:39] <Domenic> I always wondered if I had a one-character email address (d@domenic.me) whether the bug tracker would insert ...s after the character (d...@domenic.me). Turns out it does.
  370. # [15:40] <JonathanNeal> Firefox is funny. typeof XMLHttpRequest /* “function" */ XMLHttpRequest instance Function /* true */ XMLHttpRequest.name /* “” */ Function.prototype.toString.call(XMLHttpRequest) /* TypeError */
  371. # [15:40] <JonathanNeal> erlehmann: paused development a while back, but i’d be happy to work on it today.
  372. # [15:41] <Domenic> JonathanNeal: that *is* weird.
  373. # [15:41] <Domenic> XMLHttpRequest.toString() works
  374. # [15:41] <Domenic> Function.prototype.toString !== XMLHttpRequest.toString apparently
  375. # [15:42] <Domenic> I wonder if that's true for all DOM objects
  376. # [15:42] <JonathanNeal> Maybe. Similarly, Safari considers XMLHttpRequest an object.
  377. # [15:43] <annevk> Domenic: I guess you didn't have any luck with that panel the other day as WebRTC decided to not require TLS
  378. # [15:44] <annevk> Domenic: I'm thinking of putting W3C's infamous Formal Objection to test when the time is there to see if that can be reversed
  379. # [15:44] <JonathanNeal> erlehmann: would you like to help me get back to speed with table sort?
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  381. # [15:44] <Domenic> annevk: ummm they were supposed to add a note encouraging browsers to ship with only TLS
  382. # [15:44] <annevk> Domenic: though with the latest STFU to Apple about longdesc I don't have much hope
  383. # [15:44] <Domenic> annevk: I think it's a non-starter to require HTTPS for GUM but not for webkitGUM though
  384. # [15:44] <annevk> Domenic: why can't they make migration happen?
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  386. # [15:44] <Domenic> annevk: isn't that up to browsers?
  387. # [15:45] <annevk> Domenic: if we leave security up to browsers, should we leave APIs up to them too?
  388. # [15:46] <Domenic> annevk: IMO they should have a note like https://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/#sync-warning
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  390. # [15:46] <Domenic> i will send an email
  391. # [15:47] <Domenic> i looked at too much internet today before breakfast, need to get to the office and eat...
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  393. # [15:52] <annevk> Domenic: they can do better than that I think, flag day seems feasible
  394. # [15:52] <annevk> Domenic: but yes, actual deprecation would be good
  395. # [15:52] <annevk> Domenic: the resolution of the bug I tweeted made it sound like they would just add some text about how it's bad but not have an actual plan
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  398. # [15:53] <JonathanNeal> When ToLength caps lengths at 2^53-1, why is that? The bit limit in JavaScript?
  399. # [15:56] <MikeSmith> annevk: thanks (about that bug)
  400. # [15:57] <JonathanNeal> ^ http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-tolength
  401. # [15:58] <boogyman> JonathanNeal: it would make sense if that were the case
  402. # [15:59] <boogyman> gaps start to appear beyond that definition.
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  404. # [16:03] <Ms2ger> JonathanNeal, once you cross that limit, not all integers are representable as IEEE doubles
  405. # [16:04] <JonathanNeal> Thanks. noted.
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  417. # [16:34] <Domenic> annevk: "authenticated" is the new "secure" w.r.t. origins?
  418. # [16:35] <annevk> Domenic: it's not stable
  419. # [16:35] <annevk> Domenic: and it's not tied to origins
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  421. # [16:36] <annevk> Domenic: https://w3c.github.io/webappsec/specs/mixedcontent/#powerful-features is the current thinking of Mike and I
  422. # [16:36] <annevk> Domenic: mostly Mike
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  427. # [16:43] <annevk> https://annevankesteren.nl/2014/10/tls-browser-ui
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  431. # [16:48] <Domenic> annevk: enumerateDevices is privacy-sensitive from my understanding, yes? Although just in the fingerprinting sense...
  432. # [16:49] <annevk> Domenic: prolly
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  434. # [16:51] <Ms2ger> Hm
  435. # [16:52] <Ms2ger> Is it expected that canvas2d font parsing depends on quirkiness?
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  459. # [17:30] <Hixie> erlehmann: lists.whatwg.org was never accessible via TLS, but we have HSTS set up for whatwg.org now so browsers who have visited whatwg.org won't accept to visit lists.whatwg.org except through TLS
  460. # [17:31] <Hixie> erlehmann: if you visit the URL with http:// rather than https:// in a browser that has never seen whatwg.org, you can copy-and-paste the text from that URL into Google and get the w3.org equivalent.
  461. # [17:31] <Hixie> someone should write a cgi script to just do that
  462. # [17:33] <erlehmann> but that means there is a cert for whatwg.org … but not for subdomains?
  463. # [17:40] <Hixie> we have a cert
  464. # [17:40] <Hixie> we just have no way to install it for lists.whatwg.org specifically
  465. # [17:41] <Hixie> because that subdomain is run by dreamhost
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  468. # [17:48] <Domenic> Hixie: that clean-browser trick won't work once we make it onto the HSTS preload list
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  482. # [18:14] <Hixie> Domenic: yeah, you'll have to use an old browser
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  491. # [18:39] <annevk> https://unicorn-wg.github.io/sslv3-diediedie/ heh
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  506. # [19:11] <annevk> http://tantek.com/2014/304/b1/url-started-as-udi-conversation-w3c-tpac is relevant to my interests
  507. # [19:11] <annevk> Did not realize URN started at around the same time or was already ongoing
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  513. # [19:26] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: In particular, between 2^53 and 2^54-1, only even integers can be represented. Between 2^54 and 2^55-1, only integers divisible by 4 can be represented. Etc.
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  515. # [19:30] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Re "return undefined;", "undefined" is technically a variable on the global object, and can be overridden. (Unlike true/false/null/etc, which are language keywords and can't be overridden.) Its initial value is the undefined value.
  516. # [19:31] <TabAtkins> So "return;" always returns the undefined value, while "return undefined;" might not. If you ever explicitly want the undefined value, you can use the "void" operator, which is a prefix operator that takes one value, does nothing with it, and returns undefined.
  517. # [19:31] <TabAtkins> Like "void 0"
  518. # [19:31] <TabAtkins> (Which also happens to be shorter to type than "undefined".)
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  520. # [19:33] <caitp> to be fair, global.undefined is [[writable]]: false, [[configurable]]: false
  521. # [19:33] <caitp> unless it gets shadowed, which hopefully it doesn't, it doesn't matter
  522. # [19:35] <TabAtkins> Right, but most JS code happens inside of a function, so you shadowing a legit possibility.
  523. # [19:35] <caitp> not if you smack anyone that tries to check in code declaring a variable named `undefined`!
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  528. # [19:42] <TabAtkins> Sure, sure.
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  531. # [19:43] <TabAtkins> But, for example, jQuery goes out of its way to keep this from being a problem by taking a final argument in its init code that they don't actually pass (just so they get a guaranteed undefined value).
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  542. # [20:05] <smola> "file" -> Unfortunate as it is, this is left as an exercise to the reader. When in doubt, return a new globally unique identifier.
  543. # [20:06] <smola> LOLSTANDARD? :p
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  546. # [20:12] <smola> annevk: I'm trying to catch up with the URL Standard changes... what's with all the blob stuff?
  547. # [20:12] <smola> having an associated object to a URL seems out of scope
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  554. # [20:14] <smola> stuffing File API internals into the URL Standard looks like a call to "include all URL schemes' internals into the spec"
  555. # [20:14] <smola> (e.g. git://, ed2k://, magnet:...)
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  562. # [20:20] <annevk> smola: it's something the web platform needs, but you can ignore that
  563. # [20:20] <annevk> smola: i could probably write it down more cleanly
  564. # [20:22] <smola> annevk: it would be nice to have a note, somewhere, noting that "blob" stuff is for people implementing the File API, or for the "web platform", or something like that
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  566. # [20:23] <smola> I just want to spare me arguments about why that doesn't need to be implemented in a "non-web context" to comply with the URL parsing standard
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  570. # [20:24] <MikeSmith> annevk: sounds like you need to add some text defining different conformance classes
  571. # [20:24] <annevk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27215
  572. # [20:24] <annevk> smola: MikeSmith: ^^
  573. # [20:24] <annevk> patches welcome :p
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  575. # [20:25] <MikeSmith> :-)
  576. # [20:25] <smola> annevk: \o/
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  601. # [21:14] <Hixie> if i have an expression with an object literal, as in { foo: 'bar' }
  602. # [21:14] <Hixie> i can add methods to it by making the property value be a function
  603. # [21:14] <Hixie> is there an object literal syntax to add getters and setters?
  604. # [21:15] <Domenic> Wierd, InfoQ basically copied the "model" section of the streams spec + some questions into a news article. http://www.infoq.com/news/2014/10/whatwg-streams
  605. # [21:15] <Domenic> Hixie: yes, `{ get foo() { return 'bar'; } set foo(v) { ... } }
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  609. # [21:17] <Hixie> Domenic: does anyone implement that?
  610. # [21:17] <Domenic> Hixie: IE9+
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  612. # [21:17] <Domenic> (and everyone else, obviously)
  613. # [21:17] <Hixie> { set foo(a) { } } in Chrome gets me a syntax error
  614. # [21:18] <Hixie> oh i have to make it an expression
  615. # [21:18] <Domenic> wrap it in parens
  616. # [21:18] <Hixie> i see
  617. # [21:18] <Domenic> yeah
  618. # [21:18] <MikeSmith> InfoQ is hard to take seriously. I wonder who actually reads it, or why
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  620. # [21:19] <Domenic> agreed. it seems like a quantity thing?
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  628. # [21:38] <wanderview> jsbell: ping
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  638. # [21:46] <wanderview> jsbell: wrote a bug instead: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=429316
  639. # [21:47] <jsbell> wanderview: I think the intent is that put() implicitly clones (or eventually tees the stream)
  640. # [21:48] <wanderview> jsbell: I think the decision was not to do implicit clones
  641. # [21:48] <wanderview> let me find the issue
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  643. # [21:50] <wanderview> jsbell: it was the result of this (long) issue
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  645. # [21:51] <wanderview> seemed to come to the explicit clone conclusion
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  647. # [21:54] <jsbell> wanderview: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/510
  648. # [21:55] <wanderview> jsbell: that only prevents marking the body used when doing cache.Match(myRequest)
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  650. # [21:55] <wanderview> it avoids invoking the Request copy constructor... only create a Request object if a string was passed in
  651. # [21:56] <wanderview> but it doesn't stop the Cache from reading the body in order to store the Request in cache.put()
  652. # [21:56] <jsbell> wanderview: ah, right...
  653. # [21:56] <wanderview> sorry, I have to head out early to take my daughter trick-or-treating
  654. # [21:57] <jsbell> wanderview: kk; I think you should raise a spec issue on this; I don't see anything in the specs that would actually set the used flag, even if conceptually it "should"
  655. # [21:58] <wanderview> k
  656. # [21:58] <wanderview> I just don't see how it could not if we must retrieve the Request in keys()... means the cache had to store the body
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  658. # [22:01] <wanderview> jsbell: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/550
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  660. # [22:02] <jsbell> wanderview: thx; Happy Halloween!
  661. # [22:02] <wanderview> np... Happy Halloween to you too!
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  703. # [23:01] <annevk> MikeSmith: InfoQ ends up generating a ton of tweets somehow
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  707. # [23:04] <MikeSmith> yeah
  708. # [23:05] <MikeSmith> kind of baffling
  709. # [23:06] <Hixie> anyone know if JS has static properties?
  710. # [23:06] <Hixie> i want my class { } thingy to define a property that appears on the constructor and the instances, readonly
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  714. # [23:10] <annevk> Hixie: per IDL constants are non-writable non-configurable properties
  715. # [23:10] <Domenic> Hixie: proper static properties don't exist on the instances, only the class
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  717. # [23:10] <annevk> Hixie: not sure if there's sugar though
  718. # [23:10] <Domenic> Hixie: but you can do `class { static foo() { } static get bar() { } } etc
  719. # [23:12] <Hixie> Domenic: k
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  740. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Or with today's JS, you just add them as properties on the constructor function, rather than the prototype.
  741. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> Instances wont' get it.
  742. # [23:47] <TabAtkins> You'd have two forms of inheritance (from constructor and from prototype), which we've rejected in general.
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  745. # [23:52] <Hixie> yeah
  746. # [23:53] <Hixie> i always get a headache when trying to fiddle with JS prototype stuff
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  750. # Session Close: Sat Nov 01 00:00:00 2014

The end :)