/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-11-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Nov 03 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [01:18] <terinjokes> looks like the only safe way of querying the contents of a DocumentFragment is to insert it into the document
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  11. # [01:23] <terinjokes> since /getElements?By(Id|TagName|Class)/ are over on Element, but the DocumentFragment interfact exposes only Node
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  99. # [09:01] <annevk> terinjokes: DocumentFragment should expose querySelector()
  100. # [09:01] <annevk> terinjokes: and getElementById()
  101. # [09:01] <annevk> terinjokes: if a browser doesn't expose those, bug
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  105. # [09:05] <terinjokes> annevk: Safari doesn't expose getElementById
  106. # [09:05] <terinjokes> the other browsers I'm developing against pre-date querySelector and querySelectorAll… so can't blame them for not having it implemented
  107. # [09:06] <terinjokes> sorry, Safari 8*
  108. # [09:07] <annevk> http://msopentech.com/blog/2014/03/19/http2-nearing-completion/ HTTP WG makes decisions through coin toss...
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  122. # [09:15] <Ms2ger> annevk, maybe htmlwg should try that
  123. # [09:15] <Ms2ger> annevk, I'm not sure their track record for good decisions beats a coin toss
  124. # [09:16] <annevk> Ms2ger: if we don't count copying WHATWG work as decisions...
  125. # [09:17] <Ms2ger> I don't think we do
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  143. # [10:21] <annevk> Domenic: how would we ever expose Fetch' terminate primitive?
  144. # [10:22] <annevk> Domenic: var res = await fetch(req); req.terminate()?
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  180. # [12:50] <smaug____> how does one see when https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/blob/master/workers/interfaces/DedicatedWorkerGlobalScope/postMessage/event-ports-dedicated.html was added originally to wpt?
  181. # [12:50] <smaug____> github UI isn't good with file moves
  182. # [12:50] <smaug____> apparently
  183. # [12:50] <smaug____> not with huge changes
  184. # [12:55] <smaug____> (that test seems to be invalid)
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  188. # [13:16] <annevk> smaug____: it's prolly added by zcorpan
  189. # [13:19] <smaug____> zcorpan: why e.ports === null ?
  190. # [13:19] <smaug____> The spec seems to say "Let new ports be an empty array." ... "Let the ports attribute of the event be initialised to the new ports array."
  191. # [13:21] <zcorpan> smaug____: probably it matched the spec when the test was written. my interpretation of the current spec is that it should be empty array
  192. # [13:21] <MikeSmith> smaug____: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/commit/eb29e8c9fcc0e8a8e685581123bd1380de207d7d is maybe when it was first added
  193. # [13:23] <smaug____> zcorpan: http://www.w3.org/TR/webmessaging/#messageport requires empty array
  194. # [13:23] <smaug____> that is from 2012
  195. # [13:23] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: don't see that file in that commit. but i wrote the test in question
  196. # [13:24] <zcorpan> smaug____: i think the test predated Transferable thing
  197. # [13:24] <smaug____> ah
  198. # [13:24] <zcorpan> but it's also possible that i misread the spec of course
  199. # [13:26] <zcorpan> smaug____: do you want the spec changed or hte test changed?
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  201. # [13:27] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: OK, but anyway seems like it is actually there and https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/blob/eb29e8c9fcc0e8a8e685581123bd1380de207d7d/Workers/tests/approved/interfaces/DedicatedWorkerGlobalScope/postMessage/event-ports-dedicated.html is the original (unless I'm missing something)
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  203. # [13:41] <smaug____> zcorpan: test
  204. # [13:41] <smaug____> or I don't care too much which on should be changed
  205. # [13:41] <smaug____> one
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  207. # [13:48] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3process/2014Nov/0015.html chaals arguing to disable TLS to preserve battery... You cannot make this shit up
  208. # [13:51] <MikeSmith> wow
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  240. # [15:05] <zcorpan> smaug____: do you have a github username?
  241. # [15:07] <zcorpan> smaug____: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1347
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  257. # [15:47] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, good idea re: interfaces.html
  258. # [15:48] <Ms2ger> Didn't think it would work, but it does
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  291. # [16:38] <annevk> http://dnscurve.org/ seems interesting
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  325. # [17:51] <rubys> TabAtkins: let me know when I should try again. Meanwhile, I'd also appreciate a pointer to how to produce biblio entries.
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  328. # [17:52] <TabAtkins> rubys: https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/blob/master/docs/definitions-autolinks.md#bibliography
  329. # [17:52] <TabAtkins> And what do you mean by "try again"?
  330. # [17:53] <rubys> TabAtkins: "Ugh, this sent my comment before it was done. One sec while I finish up..."
  331. # [17:53] * halfline_ is now known as halfline
  332. # [17:54] <TabAtkins> Oh, it's there now.
  333. # [17:54] <rubys> ok, cool
  334. # [17:55] <TabAtkins> rubys: Are you trying to maintain all the current "concept-foo-bar"-style urls, or are you planning to switch them all into real autolinks?
  335. # [17:57] <rubys> TabAtkins: I am willing to do whatever. The question isn't what I'm willing to do, but what annevk is willing to accept.
  336. # [17:57] <TabAtkins> Haha, ok.
  337. # [17:57] <annevk> rubys: I'm a bit confused with the IDL issue
  338. # [17:57] <annevk> rubys: e.g. as I understand it https://w3c.github.io/webappsec/specs/content-security-policy/#securitypolicyviolationevent-interface is done with bikeshed and has links
  339. # [17:58] <annevk> rubys: does that mean Mike accepted the maintenance cost?
  340. # [17:58] <TabAtkins> annevk: All Bikeshed-generated.
  341. # [17:58] <TabAtkins> You can put your <dfn>s outside of the IDL block, if you want, and Bikeshed will link to them from the IDL (instead of trying to dfn them in the IDL).
  342. # [17:58] <annevk> Anolis requires a fair amount of markup to make IDL pretty... I don't really mind it
  343. # [17:59] <TabAtkins> annevk: Bikeshed requires *more* markup to make the IDL work correctly, if you're doing it by hand.
  344. # [17:59] <TabAtkins> You have to specify the types and the "for" values for everything.
  345. # [17:59] <annevk> TabAtkins: okay, so you are saying Mike is not doing it by hand
  346. # [17:59] <rubys> TabAtkins: that's what I was missing. I should be able to work with that.
  347. # [18:00] <rubys> so... generate, see what dfns are produced, move them to where they belong, and... done.
  348. # [18:00] <TabAtkins> rubys: Ah, sorry, didn't realize there was a disconnect there. Just make sure your external dfns are marked up right, with types and "for" values.
  349. # [18:00] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  350. # [18:00] <annevk> TabAtkins: how do you link [Constructor] accurately without markup?
  351. # [18:00] <TabAtkins> Just like <dfn method for=URL title="foo()">foo(int <var>arg</var>)</dfn>
  352. # [18:01] <rubys> sweet
  353. # [18:01] <TabAtkins> annevk: I think I do it badly right now. It's on my list of fixes to make.
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  355. # [18:01] <annevk> TabAtkins: okay, so the only thing that's not supported is that in interface URL, URL becomes the <dfn>?
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  357. # [18:01] <TabAtkins> No, that works too.
  358. # [18:01] <annevk> oh
  359. # [18:02] <annevk> Okay so rubys maybe misunderstood something then?
  360. # [18:02] * annevk is so confused
  361. # [18:02] <TabAtkins> There was a bug for a little bit in some related handling, but I fixed that this morning.
  362. # [18:02] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I think rubys didn't realize that Bikeshed'll respect you wanting to put your <dfn>s elsewhere.
  363. # [18:02] <rubys> annevk: I think that about summarizes it. Everything works, I just didn't know how. Perhaps there is a doc problem, or perhaps it is just me.
  364. # [18:02] <TabAtkins> Well, it should all be in the docs, but docs are hard to read, so wtv.
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  367. # [18:04] <annevk> rubys: while you're here, please check with me next time if you think I say something weird
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  369. # [18:04] <rubys> annevk: you say lots of things that are weird :-)
  370. # [18:05] <annevk> rubys: sure, but those two www-tag emails were quite upsetting
  371. # [18:06] <rubys> Sorry. I will say that I'm still confused by your assertion that reverse engineering existing browses is incompatible with what the WHATWG does.
  372. # [18:06] <annevk> rubys: I haven't said that
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  374. # [18:07] <annevk> rubys: I've said that you can't document reality since reality is that browsers disagree, whereas WHATWG writes documents that dictates them to agree
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  376. # [18:08] <rubys> reality is more complicated than that. There are cases where the browsers agree, and what you have speced is different than that.
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  378. # [18:08] <annevk> rubys: for those cases it might make sense to change the specification
  379. # [18:09] * Parts: pfefferle (~pfefferle@p4FDCD97C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  380. # [18:09] <rubys> in which case, I will claim that your statement on this matter is confusing.
  381. # [18:10] <rubys> For those wanting to follow along, we are referring to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2014Nov/0004.html
  382. # [18:10] <annevk> rubys: either I've made a mistake in analyzing the data when I wrote the specification, there's more data now, or the critique is inaccurate or from insufficient data
  383. # [18:10] <rubys> What I said:
  384. # [18:10] <rubys> > That may not be as we would wish it to be. But it would be a disservice to > everyone to document how we would wish things to be rather than how they > actually are (and, by all indications, are likely to remain for the > foreseeable future).
  385. # [18:10] <rubys> What anne said:
  386. # [18:10] <rubys> This contradicts with most WHATWG work. WHATWG standards describe how things should be, taking into account the realities of deployed content.
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  388. # [18:11] <rubys> I'd like to continue trying to find the sweet spot between what you have spec'ed, what browsers are willing to accept, and how far I can push the IETF.
  389. # [18:11] <Hixie> may i suggest that instead of arguing over the metaissue of what you meant when arguing what the goals are, you instead just focus on the issues that matter, namely, the actual bugs?
  390. # [18:11] <annevk> I don't understand what's unclear. Your statements contains absolutes that are just untrue.
  391. # [18:12] <rubys> Hixie: good advice.
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  393. # [18:12] <rubys> Hixie: first step on that road is here: http://intertwingly.net/projects/pegurl/urltest-results/
  394. # [18:13] <annevk> Yeah, I've been missing that. There's a lot of statements "from above", but no bug reports yet.
  395. # [18:13] <Hixie> rubys: file a bug with what you want changed, providing the evidence you think supports that change
  396. # [18:13] <annevk> Which is a weird state to be in given that rubys wants it to be non-political.
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  398. # [18:14] <rubys> annevk: unfair. I have submitted pull requests. I'm trying to work first on items that you have identified (bikeshed and rewriting the parser part of the spec). I think that's a fair amount of work.
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  400. # [18:14] <rubys> Hixie: you might also find the following to be of interest: http://intertwingly.net/projects/pegurl/liveview.html
  401. # [18:15] <Hixie> since i'm not editor of the url spec and have interest in getting involved in the url spec... :-)
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  403. # [18:16] <rubys> Hixie: I'm having difficultly parsing that. Perhaps s/have/don't/?
  404. # [18:16] <annevk> rubys: I appreciate that work, quite a lot. But it's no basis for changing direction relative to RFC 3986, for instance.
  405. # [18:16] <Hixie> have no, rather, yeah
  406. # [18:16] <rubys> Hixie: ack
  407. # [18:17] * Joins: newtron_ (~newtron@199.71.174.202)
  408. # [18:17] <rubys> annevk: I'm going to keep doing the work. I am also going to try to work with everybody. That includes yourself, the TAG, the IETF, browser vendors, library implementors, etc.
  409. # [18:17] * Quits: diffalot (~diffalot@c-75-66-188-195.hsd1.ms.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  410. # [18:17] <annevk> rubys: Sure, I do the same thing
  411. # [18:18] <rubys> If you say something that is different than something Domenic says, my preference would be to get the two of you chatting.
  412. # [18:19] <annevk> I think Domenic and I are quite well aligned
  413. # [18:19] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
  414. # [18:19] <annevk> Not sure what you're referring to
  415. # [18:19] <rubys> I've now done that twice. The first time you agreed to accept pull requests. The second time you found what I had done to be quite upsetting.
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  418. # [18:21] <annevk> Yes, as I explained, your statement contained absolutes that are untrue. The URL Standard documents how we wish things to be given that there are browsers out there that do not conform to it. It cannot document how things are, given that browsers disagree. Perhaps there are cases where those two could be closer, but you've yet to file a bug for those.
  419. # [18:22] <rubys> Annevk: a more recent example where you confused me: you suggested "hiding the editor field through CSS". When I pointed out how it could be done, you said " It seems wrong to me to have it there and use display:none to hide it."
  420. # [18:22] * Joins: eric_carlson (~eric@17.202.43.125)
  421. # [18:22] <annevk> rubys: your selective quoting does not help, I said "The other thing I don't like, but won't block on, is hiding the editor field through CSS."
  422. # [18:23] <rubys> that's fair, and I agree with it; but I will still say that I'm confused as to what your position is.
  423. # [18:23] <annevk> rubys: I knew from TabAtkins that hiding the editor field through CSS was the way to go, but I don't like it
  424. # [18:23] <annevk> rubys: and in that comment I indicated that I wouldn't block on converting the URL Standard to bikeshed because of that
  425. # [18:24] <rubys> From my experience with other open source efforts; I feel that removing editors entirely (and not just moving it to the bottom as you have done), is the right way to go.
  426. # [18:27] <annevk> Seems reasonable
  427. # [18:27] <annevk> rubys: might be worth pointing out here https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/issues/255#issuecomment-61509373
  428. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> The reason I'm currently in favor of leaving the editors in (and hiding them through CSS if you dont' want to display them) is that there are existing biblio-scraper tools that know how to look for Editors formatted in the way I currently generate them, and build bibliography dbs from scraping a bunch of docs.
  429. # [18:27] <rubys> annevk: will do.
  430. # [18:27] <annevk> TabAtkins: rubys seems to argue that it would just say WHATWG
  431. # [18:27] <rubys> annevk: +1
  432. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> If you really want to indicate no editors, I have a bug open on me to allow you to indicate you're omitting Editor on purpose.
  433. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> Sure, that's easy to do too. "Editor: WHATWG, http://whatwg.org, whatwg@whatwg.org"
  434. # [18:27] <rubys> TabAtkins: WFM
  435. # [18:28] <annevk> TabAtkins: rather no editors, with org being WHATWG
  436. # [18:28] <Ms2ger> Like we do with Unicode references
  437. # [18:28] <rubys> For context: the Apache Software Foundation has a strong position on there being no technical leads for ANY of its products.
  438. # [18:29] <Ms2ger> I'm not quite sure about going that far
  439. # [18:29] * Joins: mko (~mko@50.240.205.146)
  440. # [18:29] <Hixie> that's the exact opposite of how the WHATWG works :-)
  441. # [18:30] <TabAtkins> You can even put that Editor line into the defaults-whatwg.include file, so all whatwg specs get it automatically.
  442. # [18:30] <Hixie> every spec here has one person to blame
  443. # [18:30] <Hixie> by design
  444. # [18:30] <Hixie> so we know how to blame
  445. # [18:30] <TabAtkins> (Yeah, I'm actually quite unclear on where the editor-minimization is coming from, given that whatwg generally BDFLs...)
  446. # [18:30] <Hixie> the idea of moving the credit for editing from the header to the footer is just one of modesty
  447. # [18:31] <Hixie> since the credit should go to all the people sending feedback
  448. # [18:31] <TabAtkins> In this case, the problem is that the modesty interferes with the boilerplate generation in a very annoying way.
  449. # [18:31] <Hixie> the whatwg model is one of concentrating the responsibility and blame, and distributing the credit
  450. # [18:31] <Hixie> there shouldn't be any boilerplate :-)
  451. # [18:31] <Hixie> (e.g. the html spec doesn't have any)
  452. # [18:31] <rubys> My sense is that Dominic and Marcos are more open to sharing the responsibility.
  453. # [18:32] <Hixie> sharing responsibility is a bug
  454. # [18:32] <Hixie> it leads to sharing the blame
  455. # [18:32] <Hixie> it is imho one of the main causes of the w3c's specs being low quality
  456. # [18:32] * rubys goes back to working on real bugs
  457. # [18:32] * Quits: darobin (~darobin@78.109.80.74) (Remote host closed the connection)
  458. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> Hixie: You keep saying that, and you keep being wrong. ^_^ But that's because HTML is a special snowflake, and nobody is trying to be that consistent with its style.
  459. # [18:33] <Hixie> wait, what was it i said that was wrong?
  460. # [18:33] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, ... style consistency?
  461. # [18:33] * TabAtkins doubts that he could ever mod Bikeshed enough to satisfy HTML's use-cases.
  462. # [18:33] <Hixie> i said a lot of things just then :-P
  463. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> Hixie: The thing you were replying to me about - boilerplate.
  464. # [18:33] <Hixie> oh i didn't realise i'd ever said that html had no boilerplate before
  465. # [18:33] <Hixie> it's a relatively new fact
  466. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> You typed a bunch more between when I started typing and when I was done, sorry.
  467. # [18:33] <Hixie> as of ~august
  468. # [18:33] <Ms2ger> Speaking of boilerplate
  469. # [18:34] <Ms2ger> The multipage button has the old url
  470. # [18:34] <TabAtkins> When I was first working with Domenic to build the WHATWG boilerplate, you kept claiming there shoudlnt' be any, and everyone should build craft their header content by hand.
  471. # [18:34] <Ms2ger> Hixie, ^
  472. # [18:34] <Hixie> TabAtkins: ah, yeah, i definitely stand by that. if you have much boilerplate, you're probably doing it wrong, imho.
  473. # [18:34] <Hixie> Ms2ger: interesting
  474. # [18:35] <Hixie> Ms2ger: oh, yeah, that's intentional
  475. # [18:35] <Hixie> Ms2ger: it's still shorter than the new one
  476. # [18:35] <TabAtkins> There's a difference between "too much" and "more than you want to write by hand, and duplicate-with-minor-changes into new specs".
  477. # [18:35] <Ms2ger> That's true
  478. # [18:35] <Hixie> TabAtkins: *shrug*
  479. # [18:36] <Hixie> TabAtkins: the html spec really has virtually nothing that you'd duplicate into other specs
  480. # [18:36] <Hixie> TabAtkins: so i stand by what i said
  481. # [18:36] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i feel that boilerplate is stuff that turns readers away
  482. # [18:36] <Ms2ger> The HTML spec is a special snowflake :)
  483. # [18:36] <Hixie> if you don't want to write it, why would anyone want to read it
  484. # [18:36] <Hixie> all our specs should be special snowflakes
  485. # [18:36] <Ms2ger> I think the header for https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/ makes sense
  486. # [18:36] <Hixie> otherwise why are we writing them?
  487. # [18:36] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@107.26.129.195)
  488. # [18:37] <Ms2ger> And I don't see why other specs would need a different style
  489. # [18:38] <Hixie> anyway
  490. # [18:38] <Hixie> y'all do as you wish :-)
  491. # [18:38] <Ms2ger> And w'all will be consistent ;)
  492. # [18:38] <annevk> Hixie: it's hard to reconcile your statement for consistent look & feel with desire for inconsistent headers
  493. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I dont' want to write all the markup for my IDL blocks either, but people seem to get value from that.
  494. # [18:39] <Hixie> annevk: which statement for consistent look & feel?
  495. # [18:39] <annevk> Hixie: sharing stylesheet
  496. # [18:39] * Quits: ambv (~ambv@206.108.217.134) (Quit: sys.exit(0) # app closed)
  497. # [18:39] <Hixie> annevk: if there's a good reason for a spec to have a different look, then it shouldn't share the style sheet either
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  499. # [18:41] <rubys> annevk: done. https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/issues/255#issuecomment-61516495
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  501. # [18:45] <annevk> As for the discussion about BDFL... It has been useful for someone to make the decisions and be responsible for addressing issues. I agree that if there's no such feeling issues tend to go unaddressed or get weak responses from committees.
  502. # [18:47] <annevk> If we removed editor information even from the Acknowledgments I would still expect someone to be responsible, even if not written down somewhere.
  503. # [18:48] * Quits: bnicholson (~bnicholso@24.130.60.241) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  504. # [18:48] <rubys> Python works well with a BDFL. Apache projects work effectively WITHOUT a BDFL. We can all cite efforts that don't work well. Some with BDFLs, and many without.
  505. # [18:50] <annevk> rubys: http://www.apache.org/foundation/ suggests there's some oversight at least
  506. # [18:50] <annevk> rubys: with impressive VP titles even
  507. # [18:50] <rubys> Indeed. There is oversight. But VPs are not technical leads. By design.
  508. # [18:51] <rubys> I've been on the Apache Board of Directors for many years. If you have any questions, let me know.
  509. # [18:51] <rubys> I've been release lead (something we rotate), PMC chair, and many other positions too.
  510. # [18:51] <annevk> In a way editors are not technical leads either. That's the various browsers
  511. # [18:53] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@107.26.129.195) (Quit: tantek)
  512. # [18:53] <rubys> annevk: at the risk of upsetting you again, I see little evidence of that in http://intertwingly.net/projects/pegurl/urltest-results/
  513. # [18:53] <rubys> ok, let me retract "little evidence". That was overstating the problems I'm seeing.
  514. # [18:54] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@107.26.129.195)
  515. # [18:55] <annevk> rubys: it's obvious you are seeing something in those test results I'm missing out on
  516. # [18:56] <rubys> annevk: scroll to the bottom of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0315.html for three examples
  517. # [18:57] <annevk> rubys: example 1) http://intertwingly.net/projects/pegurl/urltest-results/7357a04b5b all browsers seem to agree on serializing except for IE
  518. # [18:58] <annevk> rubys: why would you side with IE?
  519. # [18:58] <rubys> annevk: look at username and password
  520. # [18:58] <annevk> rubys: example 2) http://intertwingly.net/projects/pegurl/urltest-results/4b60e32190 we discussed that the results are different on Windows
  521. # [18:58] * Quits: mko (~mko@50.240.205.146) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  522. # [18:58] <annevk> rubys: I don't think all browsers implement username and password properties
  523. # [18:58] <annevk> rubys: that's a new feature
  524. # [18:58] * Joins: mko (~mko@50.240.205.146)
  525. # [18:59] <rubys> annevk: the spec doesn't differentiate between "running on windows" and "running elsewhere".
  526. # [18:59] <annevk> rubys: yes, and I explained why
  527. # [18:59] <annevk> rubys: if you feel we should go for platform-dependent parsing, okay...
  528. # [18:59] <rubys> no. I think we should remove what one browser implemented on one platform.
  529. # [19:00] <annevk> http://intertwingly.net/projects/pegurl/urltest-results/61a4a14209 I already conceded we need to revisit IPv4 parsing
  530. # [19:00] <rubys> and look what presto did for: http://intertwingly.net/projects/pegurl/urltest-results/7357a04b5b
  531. # [19:00] <annevk> Presto is irrelevant
  532. # [19:00] <rubys> I think a strong case can be made for hiding passwords
  533. # [19:00] <annevk> They gave up their browser and its URL parser because it broke too many sites
  534. # [19:01] <annevk> rubys: hiding doesn't help if you can still get it through getAttribute() or some such
  535. # [19:02] <rubys> annevk: this is a topic that merits more discussion. With more browser vendors participating. I met with several last week.
  536. # [19:03] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  537. # [19:03] <annevk> rubys: I don't think URL's username/password options make much sense, but they're not really harmful either, and are used by XMLHttpRequest's HTTP authentication options
  538. # [19:04] <annevk> rubys: if anything we allow disabling them at the parser level
  539. # [19:04] <annevk> we should allow*
  540. # [19:04] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
  541. # [19:04] <rubys> WFM
  542. # [19:07] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@107.26.129.195) (Quit: tantek)
  543. # [19:07] <annevk> Anyway, I already said IP parsing needed looking into. File URLs can use another careful look if someone has the time.
  544. # [19:07] <annevk> I don't really see any controversy about that
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  548. # [19:08] <annevk> And I don't see how browsers doing wildly different things for them contradicts about what I said that we'd need to make a decision on what they should do instead. Since just matching reality is obviously not going to work...
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  550. # [19:10] <rubys> you seem stuck on that. I said something along the lines of determining what they were willing to do, and you said that contradicts how the WHATWG works. I suggest that we both move on from that discussion, and focus on working with everybody and finding the sweet spots.
  551. # [19:11] <caitp> that sounds like a good thing
  552. # [19:13] <annevk> rubys: determining what browsers are willing to do is not what you said, but seems like a good thing, yes
  553. # [19:13] <rubys> cool. peace. onwards!
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  560. # [19:19] <annevk> Seems hz-gb-2312 is dead https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25339
  561. # [19:19] <annevk> Party time?
  562. # [19:19] <wanderview> JakeA: annevk: should it be possible to put a Response with type "error" in the cache?
  563. # [19:20] <annevk> wanderview: don't really see a reason why not, although it also seems rather pointless
  564. # [19:20] <wanderview> annevk: if fetch() returns an "error" response... it rejects its promise, right?
  565. # [19:21] <annevk> wanderview: yeah, TypeError
  566. # [19:21] <JakeA> wanderview: agree with annevk
  567. # [19:21] <wanderview> not NetworkError?
  568. # [19:21] <annevk> wanderview: no
  569. # [19:22] <annevk> wanderview: didn't want to create a dependency on DOM for the sake of Node.js
  570. # [19:23] <annevk> Removing hz-gb-2312 is exciting people
  571. # [19:23] <caitp> i'm excited
  572. # [19:23] <wanderview> JakeA: is it just me, or does addAll() not say what to do if one of the requests fails?
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  575. # [19:28] <wanderview> JakeA: nm... this explains it for me: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/541
  576. # [19:29] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@107.26.129.195) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  577. # [19:30] <JakeA> wanderview: oh, it should be reject with the first error (like Promise.all)
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  580. # [19:34] <wanderview> JakeA: I think thats what it says... (promise verbage is new to me)
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  582. # [19:37] <wanderview> JakeA: do you have an opinion on this? https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/549
  583. # [19:39] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.245.26.215)
  584. # [19:40] <annevk> JakeA: I'm sorry but I forgot timeline updates, when can we expect updates to the spec & issues again?
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  589. # [19:44] <JakeA> annevk: from me?
  590. # [19:45] <annevk> JakeA: yeah and others I guess that work on the spec
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  592. # [19:47] <JakeA> annevk: I'm flying back today so normal service starts resuming (although I made some minor fixes to cache.match a couple of days ago). Looks like Jungkee had been pretty constantly active?
  593. # [19:48] <JakeA> Is there a particular issue you have in mind? I've still got request.client on my todo list, but wanted to do that when we're on same time zone
  594. # [19:49] <annevk> JakeA: 445
  595. # [19:49] <annevk> JakeA: also the path issue
  596. # [19:49] <annevk> JakeA: where everyone missed out on the security hole
  597. # [19:50] <annevk> JakeA: and other issues that impact implementations, such as ServiceWorkerClient design
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  600. # [19:50] <annevk> JakeA: environment settings object stuff; creating and terminating workers
  601. # [19:50] <annevk> JakeA: message channel setup for service workers
  602. # Session Close: Mon Nov 03 20:00:07 2014
  603. #
  604. # Session Start: Mon Nov 03 20:00:07 2014
  605. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  606. # [20:00] * Disconnected
  607. # [20:01] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  608. # [20:01] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  609. # [20:01] * Topic is 'http://www.whatwg.org/ — logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ — stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html — Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  610. # [20:01] * Set by annevk!~annevk@207.218.72.65 on Tue Mar 25 11:47:32
  611. # [20:02] <JakeA> annevk: which path issue did everyone miss out on?
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  614. # [20:03] <JakeA> (did some searching, couldn't find anything, but I'm on a throttled roaming connection so it's like wading through mud)
  615. # [20:05] <annevk> JakeA: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/468
  616. # [20:05] <annevk> JakeA: also explained in 445
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  618. # [20:06] <JakeA> annevk: you mean the cache poisoning thing? I wouldn't say no one thought of that, I mention it a couple of comments before you did https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/468#issuecomment-60352628 :P
  619. # [20:07] <JakeA> Will reply now
  620. # [20:07] <annevk> JakeA: oops, missed that
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  622. # [20:08] <annevk> JakeA: seems like a bad thing to have this security theatre then
  623. # [20:09] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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  626. # [20:11] <JakeA> annevk: we've protected existing badly structured sites. But if they remain badly structured and start relying on origin storage (even just IDB), they're opening themselves up to attacks from others on the origin
  627. # [20:12] <JakeA> But they have to open the door by wrongly assuming IDB/localstorage/cache is secure to them
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  630. # [20:23] <TabAtkins> Some naming help needed. Bikeshed currently categorizes spec versions into two categories - "ED" and "TR" - and assumes the ED is more up-to-date. This is confusing when applied to specs outside the W3C. Suggestions on (non-derogatory) names for the categories?
  631. # [20:23] <TabAtkins> Maybe "latest" and "snapshot".
  632. # [20:24] <Ms2ger> current and stale
  633. # [20:24] <Ms2ger> Oh, I missed the parenthetical
  634. # [20:24] <TabAtkins> "current" and "snapshot" might work.
  635. # [20:28] * ap_ is now known as ap
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  637. # [20:34] <JakeA> TabAtkins: git would call them branch & tag
  638. # [20:34] <JakeA> Dunno if that's helpful. Tbh "current" and "snapshot" sounds better
  639. # [20:34] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but then you're invoking very specific git idioms (and "branch" isn't even quite right; maybe "master")
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  641. # [20:36] <JakeA> TabAtkins: although w3 html is definitely a branch at this point
  642. # [20:36] <TabAtkins> That's even worse! ^_^
  643. # [20:36] <Ms2ger> No, a fork :)
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  645. # [20:36] <JakeA> Hah
  646. # [20:37] <TabAtkins> Fork and branch are identical in the wider git data model.
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  648. # [20:44] <JakeA> annevk: I've got next week to spend on issues. Maybe Wednesday afternoon too, but will be just off a 23hr flight so who knows. Thursday morning too. Will chat to you about priorities.
  649. # [20:47] <rubys> TabAtkins: Thanks for the (non-derogatory) parenthetical. I prefer "latest" and "current". Give me a few minutes to see if I can come up with something better than "snapshot".
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  651. # [20:53] <rubys> TabAtkins: I think "stable" is better than "snapshot". "dated" works too, if you don't mind being mildly subversive.
  652. # [20:54] <Ms2ger> Dated sounds good
  653. # [20:54] <TabAtkins> "current' and "dated" it is.
  654. # [20:54] <Ms2ger> And then Fig'd for current?
  655. # [20:55] <TabAtkins> "Fig'd"?
  656. # [20:55] <Ms2ger> Date <-> Fig
  657. # [20:55] <TabAtkins> BOOOOOOO
  658. # [20:55] <Ms2ger> :D
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  667. # [21:08] <rubys> TabAtkins: consider adding "numbered" and "names" as synonyms for "dated".
  668. # [21:09] <TabAtkins> "names"?
  669. # [21:09] <rubys> named*
  670. # [21:09] <TabAtkins> None of those have the pun, though!
  671. # [21:11] <rubys> Up to you, just tossing ideas out there.
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  681. # [21:40] <annevk> JakeA: ta
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  702. # [22:46] <jamesr_> Ms2ger: you're terrible and you should feel bad
  703. # [22:47] <Ms2ger> :(
  704. # [22:47] <Ms2ger> jwalden would have approved
  705. # [22:47] <jwalden> \o/
  706. # [22:47] <jwalden> wait what
  707. # [22:47] * jwalden consults logs
  708. # [22:50] <jwalden> mm, figs
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  710. # [22:50] <jwalden> http://whereswalden.com/2010/01/29/humor/
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  712. # [22:52] <Ms2ger> jwalden, surprisingly, that element still exists :)
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  721. # [23:01] <wanderview> JakeA: should Cache objects returned from CacheStorage be strictly comparable in js? a === b?
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  724. # [23:03] <wanderview> nm, I think the spec is pretty clear that it should not
  725. # [23:03] <wanderview> "Let cache be a new Cache object."
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  731. # [23:10] <wanderview> JakeA: err.. thats the case if we there is no entry
  732. # [23:10] <wanderview> I'll make an issue since you are probably travelling
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  734. # [23:13] <JakeA> wanderview: sorry, I had enough connection to get push messages put not enough for IRCCloud to load. Nah, very little object equality in SW apis
  735. # [23:13] <JakeA> means we can avoid a lot of the expando issues
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  737. # [23:13] <JakeA> I'm hitting the road soon for a lovely 24hr flight :(
  738. # [23:13] <wanderview> JakeA: I think the way the CacheStorage.open() is written currently can be interpreted as requiring object equality
  739. # [23:13] <wanderview> JakeA: seems that is how the blink tests are written currently
  740. # [23:14] <wanderview> JakeA: I'll write a github issue
  741. # [23:14] <JakeA> wanderview: ah, thank you. Yeah, I don't think we need === there
  742. # [23:15] <wanderview> JakeA: thank you! have a safe flight! hope you're flying first class :-)
  743. # [23:15] <JakeA> nooooope
  744. # [23:15] <JakeA> But hey I've got a shit ton of TV series and movies on my laptop so I'll be fine probably
  745. # [23:16] <wanderview> yea... I've watched more movies on the flights to Taiwan than I did the month or two before
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  747. # [23:21] <wanderview> JakeA: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/551
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  760. # Session Close: Tue Nov 04 00:00:00 2014

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