/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-11-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Nov 17 00:00:01 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  25. # [01:37] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Thanks!
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  74. # [06:12] <zewt_> misspellings to not make: "bare with me"
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  118. # [09:48] <Ms2ger> "Fun fact: You can't visit http://html.spec.whatwg.org if you disable RC4 in Firefox." < eh?
  119. # [09:55] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, thanks!
  120. # [09:56] <annevk> Ms2ger: DreamHost updated all Shared, but not VPS
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  123. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: cheers
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  132. # [10:23] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: requiring RC4 is how we lead the web to its full potential
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  161. # [11:34] <jgraham> foolip: Thanks for looking at karlt's test chnages
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  169. # [11:51] <hsivonen_> annevk: fwiw, I turned off DNSSEC for hsivonen.fi. I haven't gotten around to blogging about it. TL;DR is: no real upsides considering what hsivonen.fi has in DNS, but did have a downside every 9 months due to the provider not implementing the rollover tooling the way it should be implemented
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  195. # [13:37] <annevk> hsivonen: I thought there was an upside for email?
  196. # [13:38] <annevk> hsivonen: however, from everything I read it seems like something like DNSCurve would be preferable
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  208. # [14:03] <foolip> jgraham: np!
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  211. # [14:10] <annevk> Manishearth: you're asking the right questions
  212. # [14:10] <annevk> Manishearth: now someone will ask you if you want to write the UI Event specification :p
  213. # [14:10] <annevk> context: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27337
  214. # [14:14] <Manishearth> annevk: Isn't DOM3 events supposed to handle that?
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  216. # [14:14] <Manishearth> Also, if I were to write it, I would write "Do whatever the hell you want" :P
  217. # [14:15] <Ms2ger> Manishearth, oh no you won't :)
  218. # [14:16] <annevk> Manishearth: well DOM3 Events will be renamed since I think the editors finally agreed it has the wrong name
  219. # [14:16] <Manishearth> hah
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  232. # [14:40] <gsnedders> I thought DOM3 Events went to REC ages ago and we're changing the name now?
  233. # [14:41] <Ms2ger> Heh, rec
  234. # [14:41] <Ms2ger> It's been to note, and nearly to cr
  235. # [14:42] <jgraham> It's the spec that won't die
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  237. # [14:45] <annevk> Given that it doesn't even begin to answer the questions Manishearth asked in that bug it is neither worthy of REC nor CR
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  239. # [14:48] <gsnedders> annevk: I never questioned that :)
  240. # [14:49] <jgraham> Just as well the W3C doesn't have a history of releasing unfinished specs
  241. # [14:49] <Ms2ger> Sarcasm from jgraham? That's a first!
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  248. # [14:54] <foolip> annevk: do you recall why you dropped Text.replaceWholeText() but not Text.wholeText?
  249. # [14:56] * Domenic goes to look up this strangely-named API
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  253. # [15:00] <Domenic> wow Text and CharacterData are more bananas than I realized
  254. # [15:00] <gsnedders> does anyone have any stats on percentage of Linux users have gstreamer h.264 codecs installed?
  255. # [15:02] * Quits: sarri (~sari@unaffiliated/sarri) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  256. # [15:02] <foolip> gsnedders: I can make some up: not enough to depend on it without telling users what to do when it's not the case :)
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  259. # [15:03] <gsnedders> foolip: I know that's the case! :)
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  261. # [15:06] <foolip> gsnedders: unless your software is already using GStreamer as the media framework, you might also want to check for a system-installed ffmpeg/libav
  262. # [15:07] <gsnedders> foolip: all browsers use gstreamer, no?
  263. # [15:07] <foolip> gsnedders: nope, the only ones I know of are Presto (dead) and GtkWebKit
  264. # [15:07] <gsnedders> Oh. You guys all use ffmpeg/libav?
  265. # [15:08] <foolip> from memory:
  266. # [15:08] <gsnedders> I definitely had the impression that Gecko had some gstreamer impl
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  268. # [15:08] <gsnedders> Though now you mention it Chrome using ffmpeg rings a significant bell
  269. # [15:08] <foolip> WebKit uses the platform framework, which is different on Mac OS X and iOS
  270. # [15:09] <foolip> Chromium uses a bundled ffmpeg
  271. # [15:09] <foolip> and my impression was that Gecko had a custom media framework
  272. # [15:09] <foolip> but there's content/media/gstreamer/ in gecko-dev
  273. # [15:10] <gsnedders> I care only about platforms that don't always have H.264 codecs installed, FWIW.
  274. # [15:10] <gsnedders> i.e., OS X/Windows/iOS/Android are for the most part irrelevant.
  275. # [15:10] <foolip> maybe ask rillian if Gecko's GStreamer stuff is always used or just to support proprietary codecs
  276. # [15:11] <foolip> gsnedders: didn't http://www.openh264.org
  277. # [15:11] <foolip> "solve" the problem?
  278. # [15:11] <hsivonen> foolip: pretty sure it is used only for proprietary codecs, only on X11 and only for media linked to via src
  279. # [15:12] <hsivonen> foolip: OpenH264 doesn't have all profiles yet
  280. # [15:12] <foolip> hsivonen: yeah, I'd be quite surprised if you used GStreamer for MSE
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  282. # [15:12] <gsnedders> Also means trusting third-party binaries. Don't yet have reproducible builds.
  283. # [15:13] <hsivonen> gsnedders: http://andreasgal.com/2014/10/14/openh264-now-in-firefox/#comment-6620
  284. # [15:13] <annevk> foolip: no not sure
  285. # [15:13] <foolip> annevk: the definition of https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#contiguous-text-nodes is cute :)
  286. # [15:13] <hsivonen> annevk: DNSSEC has an upside for email if your MX points to a name that has DNSSEC enabled and you control the TLS cert of the SMPT server
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  288. # [15:14] <hsivonen> annevk: neither is currently true in the case of hsivonen.fi
  289. # [15:14] <annevk> foolip: bit of a copout, but it was the simplest I could come up with
  290. # [15:14] <hsivonen> annevk: I hope to make both true in due course as baby care and work permit
  291. # [15:14] <gsnedders> hsivonen: still more trust than would be nice, though. can't be verified by third parties.
  292. # [15:14] <hsivonen> annevk: so maybe I'll end up re-enabling DNSSEC in the future
  293. # [15:15] <foolip> annevk: I'm plotting to remove replaceWholeText() from Blink. If you don't have data showing that wholeText is needed, I'll add a UseCounter, wait, and see.
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  295. # [15:16] <annevk> foolip: I'm happy to UseCounter all the things
  296. # [15:17] <hsivonen> annevk: anyway, to re-enable DNSSEC, one of three things needs to happen: 1) I figure out how to run my own DNS server, or 2) EasyDNS figure out key sizes and rollover or 3) I locate a provider that has things figured out and is reasonable in other ways, too
  297. # [15:17] <hsivonen> gsnedders: it's also sandboxed
  298. # [15:17] <hsivonen> or maybe "will be"
  299. # [15:17] <hsivonen> I've lost track of what code ships
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  301. # [15:19] <hsivonen> annevk: I'm not saying DNSSEC is totally useless. Just saying that its usefulness is very narrow on balance considering how much trouble it is
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  307. # [15:24] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I'm aware.
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  312. # [15:43] <SteveF__> TabAtkins: hi, if I want to add a script to a bikeshed spec can I do it .bs?
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  315. # [15:49] <Domenic> annevk: fetch will auto-add Content-Length header when passing a non-streaming body, right?
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  318. # [15:55] <annevk> Domenic: yeah
  319. # [15:55] <annevk> Domenic: haven't really defined that part in detail yet
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  321. # [15:59] <Domenic> headers are hard
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  325. # [16:02] <Domenic> annevk: relevant https://github.com/joyent/node/blob/master/lib/_http_outgoing.js#L194-L201 (and https://github.com/joyent/node/blob/master/lib/_http_incoming.js#L158-L175 )
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  328. # [16:05] <annevk> That Node is reverse engineering Mozilla should be a sign to the IETF that they are doing something wrong
  329. # [16:05] <Domenic> hehehe
  330. # [16:05] <annevk> Please tell mnot about it
  331. # [16:07] <Domenic> i wonder what's so special about set-cookie (a few lines above)
  332. # [16:08] <Domenic> hmm i see. it's an array for set-cookie; drop duplicates for the long list; and concatenate with commas for anything else
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  334. # [16:11] <gsnedders> that's relatively common, and not the only header it's done for
  335. # [16:13] <annevk> I think Cookie is actually becoming the only special case
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  337. # [16:19] <rektide> annevk: then which
  338. # [16:20] <rektide> annevk: which other
  339. # [16:20] <rektide> annevk: if 'neither'
  340. # [16:20] <annevk> rektide: context?
  341. # [16:21] <rektide> "annevk: inspecting event listeners kinda sucks too, so i guess it's all good" "rektide: by kind of sucks do you mean it sucks of people trying to do it, or it sucks taht people try to do it" "annevk: neither"
  342. # [16:23] <rektide> i'd like to understand what others think of the un-inspectability of event listeners
  343. # [16:25] <jgraham> It seems like being able to inspect them is anti-composition by providing global state that any script can read / mutate.
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  345. # [16:26] <jgraham> If you can only touch event listeners you own there isn't the worry that someone else might unregister your listeners
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  347. # [16:27] <rektide> i thought the point of HTML being declarative was that it was revealing and mutable?
  348. # [16:27] <rektide> that's always what's been so glorious about it to me- nothing is hidden
  349. # [16:28] <rektide> i'm sorry for countering- i want to be learning here, not trying to contradict
  350. # [16:28] <jgraham> I don't understand why you're sorry
  351. # [16:28] <rektide> i'm analyzing your statement, and i feel like we are in a pre-analysis mode
  352. # [16:29] <jgraham> I don't think that declarativeness and mutability are really related
  353. # [16:29] <jgraham> For example, at one time, web components promised declarativeness (at least to some degree) and encapsulation
  354. # [16:29] <jgraham> In the end it looks like they may provide neither
  355. # [16:30] <rektide> now that's an arch i wish i'd gotten to see more intimiately
  356. # [16:30] <annevk> rektide: there's a thread on www-dom that goes into the subject to some extent
  357. # [16:30] <jgraham> But that doesn't mean that everything being a giant pile of shared global state is great design
  358. # [16:31] <annevk> rektide: but basically events are an observer system, if you start attaching meaning to the observers themselves, there's something wrong with the code
  359. # [16:32] <rektide> both of you are coming at this from a distinctly use-case driven viewpoint in my perspective
  360. # [16:32] <rektide> i see your framing in terms of how one ought be building their code
  361. # [16:32] <rektide> are there other use cases you feel your statements are appropriate to?
  362. # [16:34] <caitp-> rektide: so like I said last time this came up, jquery / similar libraries will expose these event listeners, so you could just use those (or a similar strategy) to get around it
  363. # [16:34] <caitp-> if you were so inclined
  364. # [16:34] <rektide> i think there's a case to be made taht hte web is something we ought be able to learn about and meddle with
  365. # [16:34] <rektide> and thusfar, in 98% of the cases, you can show up on someone's site and begin to meddle quite effectively
  366. # [16:35] <rektide> jquery is again another case of authorship, where you as author of a site, are enforcing a system on the site
  367. # [16:35] <rektide> (rather, you are delegating to jquery an enforcement)
  368. # [16:35] <rektide> that freedom to meddle, this being US the user's agent
  369. # [16:36] <jgraham> rektide: a) that isn't true anymore sadly (most sites these days seems to use compiled, minified js that is very hard to understand as a human). However if you want to see event listeners as a user you can do that through devtools
  370. # [16:36] <rektide> giving site authors the freedom to meddle with their own event handlers
  371. # [16:36] <jgraham> Uh, b) was supposed to be the However
  372. # [16:37] <rektide> jgraham: because of the nature of event handlers, one just has to identify entrance points into the black box
  373. # [16:37] <rektide> jgraham: intercept on the way in and modify
  374. # [16:37] <rektide> jgraham: there is still a plasticity, at every level except the event handler level
  375. # [16:37] <rektide> event handlers are uniquely write-only in the whole scheme of things
  376. # [16:38] <rektide> and the defense is that it's good for authors, keeps them from doing bad things
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  378. # [16:38] <jgraham> That isn't true
  379. # [16:38] <jgraham> You can't do lots of things
  380. # [16:38] <jgraham> You can't change a tag name in place, for example
  381. # [16:39] <rektide> you can't instantaneously change a tag name, but you can effectively do so via createElement, moving the children, attaching
  382. # [16:39] <rektide> there's the ability to, over steps, mutate into a desired state
  383. # [16:39] <rektide> that's a malleability to me
  384. # [16:39] <jgraham> Building larger web applications in the future will demand stronger invariants, not weaker ones
  385. # [16:40] <rektide> jgraham: it comes of as really condescending to me that architects would defend systems that create unseeable, unchangeable data-systems, because they think it's what users need
  386. # [16:41] <rektide> i understand there is data in letting users see the state they've built, in letting them manipualte it
  387. # [16:41] <rektide> but i don't see removing that capability, blocking them from it as a feature
  388. # [16:42] <caitp-> http://www.mexicosolidarity.org/sites/default/files/images/popcornhk.gif
  389. # [16:42] <jgraham> And yet the ability to enforce invariants is considered one of the most important requirements for building large, maintainable, software systems
  390. # [16:42] <rektide> and it's extremely hugely detrimental to those trying to learn the web, those who want to see and experiment with web sites that they happen upon to further their own education
  391. # [16:42] <jgraham> No, it isn't
  392. # [16:43] <rektide> ok let's take it step by step
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  395. # [16:44] <jgraham> Honestly, I have other things to do. I encourage you to send email
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  397. # [16:45] <rektide> in that case, i just want to drop this: it's a usescript i tried to help my friend write to make his CodeSchool experience not suck. https://gist.github.com/johnelliott/690905bb909347a56941
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  399. # [16:45] <rektide> he was not given the tools by the web to do the constructivist work he wanted
  400. # [16:45] <rektide> the web hid from him the valuable state he wanted to play with
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  402. # [16:45] <rektide> his user agent was not his
  403. # [16:45] <rektide> it was the user agent of CodeSchool
  404. # [16:45] <rektide> and he was only using it
  405. # [16:46] <caitp-> template strings are going to make those so much more readable in the future
  406. # [16:46] <caitp-> can't wait :d
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  409. # [16:47] <rektide> (my fork is a little better doc'ed, https://gist.github.com/rektide/b4f6d6ce9b780ed59512 )
  410. # [16:47] <rektide> "so copy paste this content in rather than actually running it as a userscript"
  411. # [16:48] <jgraham> User scripts aren't the web, they are proprietary UA features. A user script could certainly expose a method to mess with state that authors can't.
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  413. # [16:49] <rektide> i don't see why authors ought be prohibited from instrumenting themselves either
  414. # [16:49] <rektide> if i want to go wrap all my keyup handlers, i don't see why i should need jquery keeping track of all my handlers to do that
  415. # [16:49] <rektide> it's anti-constructivist to create a system which won't tell you what's in it
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  417. # [16:50] <rektide> the whole point of the Document Object Model
  418. # [16:50] <rektide> as per the name
  419. # [16:50] <rektide> is to tell you the structure
  420. # [16:50] <rektide> this is obvious to me. this is basic tenants of constructivism. this is what makes things malleable. this is why the web is good.
  421. # [16:51] <rektide> this one tiny little corner is the one example where the web page refuses to report what state it holds
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  423. # [16:51] <caitp-> i mean, you don't need jquery to do it, you could do it with anything
  424. # [16:51] <rektide> caitp-: it implies a monolithic developmoent practice
  425. # [16:52] <rektide> caitp-: it mandates that whomever wants to do this starts by doing this one practice
  426. # [16:52] <caitp-> heck, you could even monkeypatch Add/RemoveEventListener
  427. # [16:52] <boogyman> rektide: HTTP is stateless by default. there are ways of introducing state, but that's a decision for that "web page".
  428. # [16:52] <rektide> caitp-: but you still have to get there first
  429. # [16:52] <caitp-> it's not something everyone wants or needs to do :p
  430. # [16:52] <rektide> caitp-: it's still not modelled, it's still not something you can show up at latter and patch in
  431. # [16:52] <caitp-> but the primitives are basically there to do it
  432. # [16:53] <rektide> caitp-: but why should this one thing be the one and only place in all the HTML lands where you don't have an object model to represet the state?
  433. # [16:53] <boogyman> rektide: because http is stateless.
  434. # [16:53] <rektide> boogyman: html is nothing but state
  435. # [16:53] <caitp-> html and the dom are crazy, i wouldn't expect much from them
  436. # [16:53] <rektide> boogyman: it is the declared, mutable embodiment of state
  437. # [16:53] <rektide> boogyman: the dom is nothing but state handling
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  440. # [16:54] <rektide> boogyman: i really have no idea at all what you think the http connection has to do with anything topical to the DOM not exposing an object model for one tiny corner of itself
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  442. # [16:55] <boogyman> rektide: so it is your view that everything on a webpage should be mutable? including things like the scroll bar, the address bar, the bookmarks bar etc…
  443. # [16:56] <rektide> the point of the dom is to make state mutable. the defenses i've heard in here today are that: a) you can track state yourself (if you get there first and instrument/monkeypatch), b) you shouldn't need/want to track state. these seem insufficient. i would love to broaden my horizon of objections to my point of view; if you can help me find other categorical objections to my ask (model this aspect of the document), i'd love to hear
  444. # [16:57] <rektide> boogyman: those aren't the webpage, those are the user agent. and yes, those aspects fo the user agent should be an in some user agents are alterable. for instance: i can change the scheme in my OS. i can add awesomebar extensions to my browser. you're throwing some real softballs my way friend.
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  446. # [16:58] <rektide> i can css3 style the scrollbar too, actually
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  448. # [16:59] <boogyman> So your viewpoint is that once a fragment gets parsed by the rendering engine, that should be mutable?
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  450. # [17:00] <rektide> boogyman: you rules lawyer me. i don't know what definition you are setting up to pull me on me now. i believe that it's intuitively obvious that the Document Object Model models the elements in it, and that it's failure to model the events is a clear fault in the scope of what it models
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  453. # [17:02] <boogyman> I'm trying to understand your viewpoint, so I can make an accurate assessment and potentially "find categorical objections"
  454. # [17:02] <rektide> annevk: i respect you as someone who provides a lot of direction, and i really would appreciate a clash from you on this at some point. i'll try to find a way to cobble together something for a mailing list, but i was hoping to better understand the background and viewpoints ahead of time.
  455. # [17:04] <rektide> boogyman: i don't think teh view engine is concerned at all in this topic, would be my main distinction. this is an issue of the DOM, outside what renders: the DOM is the living breathing state object, and it shows us a model of that state. with this one rare peculiar exception: events.
  456. # [17:04] <rektide> parsing is incidental, is a means of getting into that state-holding system
  457. # [17:05] <boogyman> So, are you asking for mutable access to events?
  458. # [17:06] <boogyman> access of a defined event*
  459. # [17:06] <rektide> yes, i would like the Document Object Model- the thing that exposes the state- to expose events as a part of that state that it exposes
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  461. # [17:06] <annevk> rektide: look at e.g. promises or observers
  462. # [17:06] <annevk> rektide: none of these systems provide a means to get to the listeners
  463. # [17:07] <rektide> well, neither of those have 'Model' in their name
  464. # [17:07] <rektide> as a quick start
  465. # [17:07] <annevk> rektide: events don't have 'Model' in their name either
  466. # [17:07] <rektide> DOM does and EventTArget is defined in the DOM
  467. # [17:07] <annevk> rektide: events, promises, and, observers are all roughly equivalent
  468. # [17:08] <rektide> this anti-constructivist trend is one i'd like to strike at, as you see
  469. # [17:08] <rektide> and it's growth is worrying
  470. # [17:08] <rektide> i agree that the problem is growing rapidly
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  472. # [17:09] <rektide> i'll try to mention these others in my eventual email
  473. # [17:09] <rektide> MutationObserverTarget here we come.
  474. # [17:10] <rektide> gods above willing
  475. # [17:11] <rektide> ugg i've yet again wasted my chances to pick up intel from the enemy
  476. # [17:12] <rektide> drat
  477. # [17:12] <caitp-> (・_・ヾ)???
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  480. # [17:14] <rektide> caitp-: i was un-asiding that i've already made progressive conversation- getting annevk to go on & give me more context for this- much harder, much less likely
  481. # [17:15] <rektide> i think my first step here might be to get on hte horn with kris kowal and pick his brain on promises for a while
  482. # [17:16] <rektide> i don't necessarily want to go into that domain- DOM has Model in the name, whereas promises, in contrast, as ALWAYS a procedural instantiation- but see what weaknesses he thinks closuring everything up has
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  484. # [17:20] <caitp-> well, bon voyag
  485. # [17:20] <caitp-> e
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  487. # [17:29] * smaug____ feels stupid. Doesn't quite understand what annevk means with data properties. How are those different to [Unforgeable]
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  489. # [17:30] <annevk> smaug____: http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-object-type IDL only supports accessor properties at the moment, afaik
  490. # [17:31] <smaug____> ah, so it would be without a getter
  491. # [17:32] <annevk> yup
  492. # [17:32] <annevk> Just trying to knock down the walls between JS and IDL
  493. # [17:34] <smaug____> would there be any reason to use data property and not just normal webidl readonly attribute?
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  496. # [17:36] <annevk> It can be overkill to use the latter, especially from a self-hosting perspective, as it requires internal state
  497. # [17:37] * caitp- is now known as caitp
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  501. # [17:46] <TabAtkins> SteveF__: Yeah, .bs is just .html with more syntax additions. You can drop in a <script> no problem.
  502. # [17:46] <SteveF__> TabAtkins: thanks
  503. # [17:48] <TabAtkins> (And as long as the start and end tags are on a line by themselves, Bikeshed will recognize them, and will avoid trying to do any "helpful" syntax conversions inside of your script.)
  504. # [17:48] <SteveF__> good to know
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  650. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> Turns out that you shouldn't add things that aren't friendly with a language's tokenization rules, especially for languages without contextual tokenization algorithms.
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  654. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> (Writing up the specification of unicode-range in terms of CSS tokens is tricky and dumb.)
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  662. # [23:27] <Hixie> TabAtkins: oh?
  663. # [23:27] <Hixie> TabAtkins: what's the difficulty?
  664. # [23:30] <TabAtkins> For example, u+2e-30 parses as IDENT(u) NUMBER(2e-30)
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  666. # [23:34] <TabAtkins> While u+2a-30 parses as IDENT(u) DIMENSION(2, a-30)
  667. # [23:34] <TabAtkins> And u+20-30 parsed as IDENT(u) NUMBER(20) NUMBER(-30)
  668. # [23:35] <TabAtkins> There are actually five parses to deal with, with different variations in the hex digits triggering the cases in a difficult-to-predict way.
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  673. # [23:39] <Hixie> TabAtkins: can't you just change the tokeniser to have a U+<hex> token?
  674. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> The point was that I just *removed* the specialized unicode-range token from the tokenizer.
  675. # [23:39] <Hixie> oh
  676. # [23:39] <Hixie> why?
  677. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> Because special-purpose tokens are the devils' work, and cause confusing bugs elsewhere.
  678. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> For example, `u+a { font-weight: bold; }` is a syntax error.
  679. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> (becuase the selector parsed as a unicode-range token)
  680. # [23:40] <Hixie> wait, why are you using the same tokens for selectors as property vluaes
  681. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> Because CSS's tokenizer isn't contextually interwoven with its parser.
  682. # [23:41] <Hixie> i have a proposal!
  683. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> NOPE
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  685. # [23:41] <Hixie> (why not?)
  686. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> Because that kind of interweaving makes it harder to write parsers, and requires more state.
  687. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> Also: requires knowledge of the language inside of the parser, preventing generic processing.
  688. # [23:42] <Hixie> seems pretty straight-forward to have a set of selector tokens and a set of value tokens, but ok
  689. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> Also: selectors can appear in more places than just the prelude of blocks.
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  691. # [23:43] <Hixie> ah, that's an interesting one
  692. # [23:43] <Hixie> can they appear in values?
  693. # [23:43] <TabAtkins> Yes. Inside of some functions, for example.
  694. # [23:43] <Hixie> funky
  695. # [23:43] <TabAtkins> Well, when you're referring to one element from within another element...
  696. # [23:43] <Hixie> how do you handle #color vs #id ?
  697. # [23:43] <Ms2ger> #hash
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  699. # [23:44] <TabAtkins> Both of those are just <hash-token>s, and contextually interpreted.
  700. # [23:44] <TabAtkins> By the property-level grammars.
  701. # [23:44] <TabAtkins> (In other words, a <hash-token> is a valid <color>. A <hash-token> is also a valid <id-selector>.)
  702. # [23:45] <Hixie> is there any string that causes a tokenisation-level error when parsing a value, short of an unexpected EOF?
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  704. # [23:45] <TabAtkins> No.
  705. # [23:45] <Hixie> interesting
  706. # [23:45] <TabAtkins> If by "error" you mean "abort processing".
  707. # [23:45] <Hixie> by "error" i mean "throw property away"
  708. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> There are some strings of characters that generate guaranteed-invalid tokens.
  709. # [23:46] <Hixie> the way 'color:#ABC;color:#XYZ;' results in the second colour being dropped
  710. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> But still, throwing away is done at the property-grammar level, or block-grammar level.
  711. # [23:46] <Hixie> oh what are the guaranteed-invalid tokens?
  712. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> That's the cascade level, which is even further down the stream.
  713. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> <bad-string-token> and <bad-url-token>
  714. # [23:47] <caitp> you(SP)'ve written the grammar such that there is no sequence of valid tokens that does not result in a valid production?
  715. # [23:47] <TabAtkins> A string which contains an unescaped literal newline becomes a <bad-string-token>. An unquoted url with spaces in it becomes a <bad-url-token>.
  716. # [23:47] <Hixie> so 'color:#XYZ' is dropped at a different spot than 'color:url( \n )' ?
  717. # [23:47] <TabAtkins> caitp: For what?
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  719. # [23:48] <caitp> wait, you're talking about lexer errors right
  720. # [23:48] <TabAtkins> Hixie: No, those two are dropped at the same spot - that sort of <hash-token> isn't a valid <color>, and the 'color' grammar doesn't allow <bad-url-token>.
  721. # [23:48] <TabAtkins> caitp: I use the term "tokenizer", but sure.
  722. # [23:48] <Hixie> ah, interesting
  723. # [23:48] <Hixie> cool, carry on
  724. # [23:49] <caitp> lexer, scanner, tokenizer, tic tac to
  725. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> caitp: The grammar of CSS is, like HTML, captured by the regex /.*/
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  727. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> And is then filtered down afterwards according to various production grammars.
  728. # [23:50] <Hixie> (btw, to make that true required a hell of a long time arguing in the csswg)
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  730. # [23:50] <Hixie> (back in the early 2000s)
  731. # [23:50] <TabAtkins> Hixie: It still wasn't technically true when I started work on Syntax, I think. (I don't recall details, but I think there were still a few possible cases not covered by the error-recovery rules.)
  732. # [23:50] <Hixie> really? wow
  733. # [23:50] <Hixie> doesn't surprise me that we missed some
  734. # [23:50] <TabAtkins> They were arcane, iirc.
  735. # [23:50] <Hixie> we weren't being rigorous
  736. # [23:51] <TabAtkins> I'm pretty sure I talked about them on the ML when I was first writing Syntax.
  737. # [23:52] <TabAtkins> But yeah, error-recovery in grammars is a fucking trainwreck, and nobody should ever do it. Do your parsing explicitly, *then* apply grammars on top of that.
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  739. # [23:53] <TabAtkins> Because at that point you can validly say "nope, you don't match, throw the whole thing out" where "the whole thing" is some construct within the file that's already well-delimited.
  740. # [23:54] <Hixie> hear hear
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  746. # Session Close: Tue Nov 18 00:00:00 2014

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