/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-01-13 / end

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# Session Start: Tue Jan 13 00:00:00 2015
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:44] <jamesr__> my chromium checkout is roughly 20GB, excluding build artifacts
# [00:45] <jamesr__> debug build is 27GBish, depending on configuration
# [00:45] <jamesr__> and what targets you wanna build
# [00:48] <caitp-> that's my favourite thing about v8
# [00:48] <caitp-> tiny
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# [01:02] <jamesr__> chromium is big. web platform is very broad
# [01:02] <caitp-> yes, and yet i manage to get 7 minute clobber builds of m-c on my laptop
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# [01:03] <caitp-> oh the things we miss
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# [01:08] <jamesr__> what kinda laptop?
# [01:08] <jamesr__> i can clobber build chromium in about 3 minutes, but it takes a lot more power than a single laptop
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# [01:10] <jgraham> I think it's pretty community spirited of Google to make building Chromium have such a high barrier to entry
# [01:11] <jgraham> It makes Gecko look appealing in comparison
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# [01:17] <jamesr__> i'm pretty sure nobody chooses to make the codebase harder to work with. in fact, quite a few people do the opposite. it's hard
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# [01:18] <jgraham> I imagine it's less pressing when you can build in 3 minutes due to a huge internal build cluster
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# [01:26] <jsbell> Ms2ger: https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/3713
# [01:26] <jsbell> dang, not online... but cc'd, good 'nuff
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# [07:07] <hemanth> meow
# [07:07] * hemanth paws at catip, annevk
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# [07:59] <Domenic> enough roleplaying in whatwg, I think...
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# [08:09] <hemanth> Ooops, Sorry Domenic. (It's become a (bad) habit)
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# [09:06] <annevk> morning
# [09:09] <terinjokes> annevk: you're supposed to roleplay
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# [09:12] <annevk> heh
# [09:15] <hemanth> ^_^
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# [11:05] <annevk> this may interest some here: https://annevankesteren.nl/2015/01/javascript-web-platform
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# [11:30] <hemanth> annevk: internal states, tell me about that! ;)
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# [11:33] <annevk> hemanth: hah, still unclear?
# [11:34] <annevk> hemanth: in the JavaScript specification it is fairly explicit, internal slots are the [[thingies]]
# [11:34] <annevk> hemanth: in web platform land you have to read a bit, e.g. https://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/#formdata has an [[entries]] slot and an internal "create an entry" method
# [11:35] <hemanth> annevk: not that i'm not clear, but finding those [[ ]] in MediaElement ain't easy (for me)
# [11:36] <Ms2ger> I wonder if it'd be clearer if rather than prose "represents" or "has associated" requirements, we'd have a table with all the slots and maybe their type
# [11:36] <hemanth> agree, need to "read a bit" :)
# [11:36] <annevk> Ms2ger: that's my internal slots IDL proposal
# [11:37] <annevk> hemanth: pretty much anything with an attribute getter requires an internal slot
# [11:37] <Ms2ger> You mean, do it in the IDL block?
# [11:37] <annevk> Ms2ger: yeah, the idea is that basically everything that's an attribute automatically creates an internal slot
# [11:37] <Ms2ger> Eh, not sure I like that
# [11:37] <annevk> Ms2ger: unless you say it doesn't need one (e.g. innerHTML doesn't need one, we'd generate the string on the fly)
# [11:38] <hemanth> annevk: okies...
# [11:38] <Ms2ger> We'd have to opt out all the reflecting attributes too
# [11:38] <annevk> yeah, not everyone does
# [11:38] <annevk> Ms2ger: I think for reflecting attributes we want special IDL
# [11:38] <annevk> Ms2ger: [Reflect=URL] or some such
# [11:38] <Ms2ger> And with my implementor hat on, I'm not sure I like having it intertwined with the interface definition
# [11:38] <Ms2ger> I don't know
# [11:39] <hemanth> annevk: https://twitter.com/GNUmanth/status/535356806856331264 is not possible due to internal slots, right?
# [11:39] <annevk> Ms2ger: Chrome has that, looks pretty neat
# [11:39] <annevk> hemanth: I'm not sure what that is saying
# [11:41] <hemanth> well annevk gnumanth in me ;) So...we can't just do an Object.observe(input, function(changes){})
# [11:41] <hemanth> /in/is
# [11:41] <Ms2ger> That's what you have with accessors
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# [11:42] <annevk> hemanth: ah yes, that doesn't work automatically because of getters rather than actual properties
# [11:43] <hemanth> #sad
# [11:43] <hemanth> anyway MutationObserver can come to rescue, right?
# [11:43] <annevk> hemanth: a thought I had was that if we formalize internal slots through IDL we could also formalize Object.observe as acting on those formalized slots
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# [11:43] <hemanth> that would be great! annevk
# [11:43] <annevk> hemanth: mutation observers are only about tree state, not about object state
# [11:43] <hemanth> oh :(
# [11:44] <hemanth> annevk: you got a chance to read http://h3manth.com/new/blog/2015/es6-reflect-api/ ;) ?
# [11:45] <annevk> hemanth: do now, though I read about Reflect before, I'm on es-discuss :-)
# [11:46] <hemanth> :)
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# [12:14] <annevk> JakeA: I for one, cannot wait for the internal build of the pre-alpha
# [12:16] <JakeA> annevk: haha, I'm soooo fucking angry
# [12:18] <annevk> JakeA: shows that post-religion people are still gullible
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# [12:56] <annevk> For some reason www.w3.org no longer loads in my Firefox Nightly
# [12:56] <annevk> Is Firefox Nightly trying to protect me?
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# [13:19] <JakeA> annevk: yesterday, when I was talking about vague error messages, I was referring to steps 6.2 and 7 https://w3c.github.io/push-api/#widl-PushManager-subscribe-Promise-PushSubscription
# [13:20] <JakeA> They're trying to decide between "be vague, and allow push services the freedom to throw the best error" and "update the spec for new errors created by different kinds of push services"
# [13:20] <JakeA> I prefer the former
# [13:20] <JakeA> EME does the latter
# [13:21] <JakeA> https://w3c.github.io/encrypted-media/#h3_methods-1 1.2.3
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# [13:23] <annevk> JakeA: you mean EME does the former and you prefer the latter?
# [13:23] <annevk> JakeA: what EME does is a bug that they should fix
# [13:23] <annevk> JakeA: can't really hand-wave the protocol like that :-(
# [13:24] <JakeA> annevk: hah, yes that's what I mean
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# [14:20] <iandevlin> I feel dumb when I read anything in this channel :-o
# [14:20] <JakeA> fwiw so do I
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# [14:20] <JakeA> I suppose it's better than thinking you know it all, right?
# [14:20] <iandevlin> True
# [14:20] <iandevlin> But I appear to know nothing :D
# [14:21] <iandevlin> That said, I often struggle to open food packaging so hey.
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# [15:14] <annevk> iandevlin: I think that's how everyone in this channel started out
# [15:15] <annevk> iandevlin: hard to say whether we "improved" over time by learning though :-P
# [15:16] <iandevlin> annevk: not sure if that's encouraging or not!
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# [15:19] <annevk> iandevlin: one day I hope social sciences starts studying mailing lists and IRC channels
# [15:19] <iandevlin> annevk: haha :-)
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# [15:39] <MikeSmith> https://www.drupal.org/node/2405903
# [15:39] <MikeSmith> does Drupal actually emit <meta name="charset" charset="utf-8" />
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# [15:40] <Ms2ger> Lolwat
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# [16:02] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: https://html5.validator.nu/ and https://validator.nu/ returning 502
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# [16:20] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: the validator messages would be clearer if it reordered the attributes so that "charset" is first before checking against the RelaxNG
# [16:20] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i think that is similarly done for <input> to put type first
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# [16:24] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: the validator's not doing any reordering of attributes anywhere
# [16:24] <MikeSmith> as far as I know
# [16:24] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i recall something about <input type> at least to make error messages less confusing
# [16:24] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ^
# [16:26] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: try this <input alt type=file> <input type=file alt>
# [16:26] * MikeSmith tries
# [16:27] <zcorpan> and compare with <meta name=charset charset=utf-8> vs <meta charset=utf-8 name=charset>
# [16:28] <zcorpan> without the reordering it would say that type=file is invalid for the first case
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# [16:32] <MikeSmith> OK, I see what you're saying but I don't think that's due any to the code doing any special reordering of attributes in that case -- instead it's just because of the way the RelaxNG schema defines the constraints for <input>, which is different from how it defines the constraints for <meta>
# [16:33] <MikeSmith> because dealing with <input> is a massive PITA due to the fact it's not really one element but actually 17 or whatever different elements masquerading as one element
# [16:33] <annevk> MikeSmith: at what point are you going to cut out the middle man?
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# [16:36] <MikeSmith> annevk: some day when I either suddenly get much smarter or when I suddenly have a bunch more time free to work on solving interesting problems
# [16:37] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, fwiw, bz believes http://w3c-test.org/quirks-mode/table-cell-width-calculation.html flakiness in Gecko is because it assumes imgs load sync
# [16:38] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: yes, that matches my analysis
# [16:38] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: question is if we want <img src=data:...> to load sync or async
# [16:39] <Ms2ger> I don't want anything :)
# [16:40] <annevk> zcorpan: I want async...
# [16:40] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: just need to double your intake of tea and then you can handle it yourself
# [16:40] <zcorpan> annevk: why?
# [16:40] <MikeSmith> heh
# [16:41] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: it's imaginable that we could change the meta-checking user-visible behavior to be more like the input-checking user-visible behavior. But another thing is that the meta-checking behavior is itself also already relatively baroque, but just in a different way. Good times all around
# [16:41] <annevk> zcorpan: consistency
# [16:41] <annevk> zcorpan: though I guess <img src=known-uri> is also sync...
# [16:41] <annevk> bah
# [16:42] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i guess <meta> invalidness might be rare and not worth optimizing for
# [16:42] <MikeSmith> yeah true probably so
# [16:42] <zcorpan> annevk: it is, yes
# [16:43] <zcorpan> annevk: it loads sync in blink but not in current blink/webkit
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# [16:43] <Ms2ger> I think you blinked a blink there
# [16:44] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I think in general we could move more stuff out of the RelaxNG schema and into the Java code. Maybe <meta> is a specific case where that could happen, I dunno. But in general we get better behavior for end users the more we move stuff out that way when we can
# [16:44] <zcorpan> gecko/webkit
# [16:45] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: is there any data about which messages or elements or attributes are most common?
# [16:46] <MikeSmith> nah we would need to add some stuff to the stats-collecting code to get that
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# [16:47] <MikeSmith> Hixie also talked to me about that recently
# [16:47] <MikeSmith> so I should do it
# [16:47] <MikeSmith> one nice thing about that is , it doesn't require me to be so smart
# [16:47] <zcorpan> i think hsivonen did something like that in the early days
# [16:47] <MikeSmith> yeah?
# [16:48] <MikeSmith> if so I don't think he kept the code for collecting it in there
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# [16:48] <MikeSmith> anyway, it would be very useful info to have
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# [17:04] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jan/0305.html
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# [17:09] <zcorpan> heh, "Bad value “X-UA-Compatible”" "Hmm."
# [17:10] <zcorpan> does someone have IE? i can't get modern.ie to give me a screenshot for http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/3066
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# [17:19] <iandevlin> zcorpan: I have IE, what do you want?
# [17:20] <zcorpan> iandevlin: can you tell me what the log says for the above link?
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# [17:21] <iandevlin> zcorpan: In IE11, the log says: log: 0
# [17:21] <iandevlin> rendering mode: CSS1Compat
# [17:21] <iandevlin> document has no title
# [17:21] <iandevlin> oops
# [17:21] <zcorpan> thanks iandevlin
# [17:22] <zcorpan> means loading is async
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# [17:24] <TabAtkins> What does e10s expand to?
# [17:25] <jgraham> eeeeeeeeees
# [17:25] <jgraham> Or electrolysis
# [17:25] <jgraham> Your choice
# [17:27] <iandevlin> See? I don't even understand those logs that I pasted :-/
# [17:27] <Domenic> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jan/0305.html seems to basically just be saying "if people make an error often enough we should make it conforming" :-/
# [17:30] <Domenic> Oh I see that's from 2008
# [17:30] <jgraham> Domenic: It's more like "if people do X and we can't think of a reason that X is actively harmful (in some way that doesn't require everyone else to not do X too), then it should be conforming"
# [17:30] <Domenic> Yeah, that doesn't sound like a conformance checker/validator too much to me. More like an interoperability checker.
# [17:31] <zcorpan> iandevlin: annevk: Ms2ger: https://github.com/ResponsiveImagesCG/picture-element/issues/223#issuecomment-69772765
# [17:31] <annevk> zcorpan: \o/
# [17:31] <annevk> zcorpan: ah yes, allowing asynchronous decoding is a good one
# [17:31] <jgraham> Domenic: Souns like one to me, just where the definition of "conformance" is based on data rather than someone's idea of aesthetics
# [17:31] <iandevlin> zcorpan: aha thanks
# [17:31] <annevk> zcorpan: anything sync is PITA, see about:blank
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# [17:32] <Ms2ger> Domenic, problem is that validators can't whine *too* much, otherwise people ignore them
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# [17:33] <Domenic> Ms2ger: yeah, I'm sympathetic to that. A lot of those seemed pretty bad though. e.g. border="0" instead of CSS.
# [17:33] <Ms2ger> Domenic, *shrug*
# [17:33] <zcorpan> Domenic: why is it better to use style="border:0" for something like a badge that you want other people to paste into their sites?
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# [17:34] <Ms2ger> Domenic, I mean, CSS is better and all, and I'd never use border="" today, but is it really harmful?
# [17:34] <jgraham> Domenic: Right that makes sense if you can articulate a particular reason it's bad
# [17:34] <jgraham> (some things that "everybody knows" are terrrible turn out to be not-so-terrible-after-all under this test)
# [17:34] <jgraham> (e.g. <b>)
# [17:34] <zcorpan> (border=0 might not be necessary at all today though since browsers dropped the default border on image links)
# [17:35] <Domenic> zcorpan: knowing and propagating knowledge of the general-purpose mechanism is better than knowing that img's have a special-purpose attribute that will tweak the border.
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# [17:36] <zcorpan> Domenic: so presentational stuff is ok if it's general-purpose?
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# [17:38] <Domenic> not what i said
# [17:40] <annevk> So nobody any idea why Firefox would refuse to load www.w3.org links?
# [17:41] <Ms2ger> Doesn't for me
# [17:41] <Domenic> is it on the HSTS preload list? There's some part of the w3 site that sets the HSTS header, but the rest of the site redirects https to http
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# [17:47] <annevk> Domenic: that sounds like it could be it
# [17:47] <zcorpan> Domenic: yeah, sorry
# [17:48] <annevk> Domenic: seems I cannot inspect items in the list in Firefox, I can either enable or disable it...
# [17:48] <annevk> Domenic: but I do end up with infinite redirects...
# [17:48] * annevk didn't realize the W3C would try to set that header before they made things work
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# [17:50] <annevk> "Unfortunately these threads usually devolve into an endless thread of discussion and debate that become next to impossible to actually read through later without several hours of spare time and a bottle of whiskey..." hehehe
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# [18:32] <MikeSmith> annevk: is your Firefox refusing to load www.w3.org links right now?
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# [18:33] <annevk> MikeSmith: yes
# [18:33] <annevk> "Firefox has detected that the server is redirecting the request for this address in a way that will never complete."
# [18:33] <MikeSmith> ok yeah
# [18:34] <MikeSmith> this happened to others
# [18:34] <MikeSmith> including me, but in Chrome in my case
# [18:34] <annevk> MikeSmith: the only way for w3.org to solve this is either no longer redirect https to http or set a HSTS header for everyone that removes the policy
# [18:34] <annevk> MikeSmith: strict-transport-security: max-age=0 or some such
# [18:34] <MikeSmith> did Tim or somebody send out public mail about this?
# [18:35] <annevk> MikeSmith: I don't know
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# [18:37] <annevk> MikeSmith: yeah it's definitely HSTS
# [18:38] <MikeSmith> yeah
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# [18:52] <JakeA> TabAtkins: Which spec defines a css property that gives an element an aspect ratio?
# [18:52] <JakeA> (or am I making it up?)
# [18:52] <TabAtkins> An old blog post of mine defined a bad version of it.
# [18:52] <TabAtkins> But no spec does.
# [18:53] <JakeA> No worries. Must have imagined it
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# [21:05] <jsbell> MikeSmith: can you verify that inexorabletash is a contributor to w3c/IndexedDB on github?
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# [21:18] * annevk was reading that and thought, hey, I know inexorabletash, that's jsbell!
# [21:18] <annevk> And then I read who wrote the line
# [21:18] <jsbell> :)
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# [21:30] <hsivonen> MikeSmith, zcorpan: validator.nu is up again. thanks
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# [22:03] <GPHemsley> MikeSmith, jgraham: Yes, I was paraphrasing.
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# [22:55] <Hixie> so confused
# [22:55] <Hixie> suppose i have an Iterator in JS
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# [22:55] <Hixie> do i use for (let a in g), for (let a of g), or for each (let a in g) ?
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# [23:00] <jsbell> Hixie: for (let a of g)
# [23:00] <Hixie> ok, thakns
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# [23:35] <TabAtkins> Hixie: for(let a of g)
# [23:35] <TabAtkins> "for each" was part of a very old proposal, only existed in Firefox if you invoked the right ritual version.
# [23:35] <TabAtkins> Testing: ping?
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# [23:39] <TabAtkins> Ooof, I'm in netsplit right now. Awesome.
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# Session Close: Wed Jan 14 00:00:00 2015

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