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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jan 15 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  34. # [01:04] <Domenic> TabAtkins: can I pass in custom metadata with bikeshed's --md-xxx syntax? I am getting "Unknown metadata key" errors
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  36. # [01:04] <TabAtkins> Nope, I have a note in the issue saying that I'm not adding it until someone asks, because it's a little troublesome. ^_^
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  38. # [01:05] <Domenic> hmm maybe i can repurpose another metadata
  39. # [01:06] <Domenic> TabAtkins: I basically want to smuggle in some custom text from the command line, so I can do `var currentCommitURL = "[commiturl]"`
  40. # [01:06] <Domenic> any better way to do that than asking you to implement custom metadata?
  41. # [01:07] <TabAtkins> That won't work in the first place, since there's no way to set custom text macros.
  42. # [01:07] <Domenic> Ah, macros vs. metadata
  43. # [01:08] <Domenic> so uh yeah any ideas
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  50. # [01:13] <TabAtkins> Log an issue on me and I'll think about it. ^_^
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  182. # [09:00] <MikeSmith> anybody know that github is using Flash for?
  183. # [09:00] <MikeSmith> in Chrome I get a popup notification about it having blocked a pop-up from Flash
  184. # [09:03] <ondras> document.querySelectorAll("object")[0].id
  185. # [09:03] <ondras> "global-zeroclipboard-flash-bridge"
  186. # [09:03] <ondras> :-)
  187. # [09:03] <MikeSmith> https://assets-cdn.github.com/flash/ZeroClipboard.v2.1.6.swf I guess
  188. # [09:03] <MikeSmith> ondras: yeah
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  222. # [09:53] <annevk> Domenic: are you awake?
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  230. # [10:10] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks. validator.nu is back
  231. # [10:10] <hsivonen> looks like I need to write some kind of watchdog for this
  232. # [10:11] <hsivonen> like I have with Apache+Bugzilla, which is combo that gets killed by the kernel occasionally
  233. # [10:11] <hsivonen> so I have a cron job telling apache to start frequently
  234. # [10:15] <annevk> heycam|away: whoa, 100Mbps for AUD 1500 is ... move to Europe ;-)
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  258. # [11:29] <zcorpan> my first v.nu PR https://github.com/validator/validator/pull/25
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  260. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> righteous
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  263. # [11:31] <zcorpan> i guess there's no spec for x-ua-compatible http header
  264. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> only some scattered msdn stuff, how-to, not spec
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  266. # [11:35] <zcorpan> maybe the message should say what the value was
  267. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> that's always nice to have
  268. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> especially in this case
  269. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> since it's coming from a header
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  273. # [11:47] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: the docs say there's error, fatalError and warning. and the other errors are actually fatal. so this should be error
  274. # [11:47] <zcorpan> unless error somehow doesn't work and it needs to choose between fatalError and warning
  275. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: ok. haven't looked back at the rest of the code yetー I'm on from my phone
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  357. # [17:09] <annevk> https://twitter.com/awbjs/status/555755196488241152 :/
  358. # [17:09] <annevk> Is there nobody that does any triaging on ES bugs?
  359. # [17:10] <annevk> What's the point in filing them if they keep getting deferred unless you're on some committee
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  361. # [17:10] <Ms2ger> What makes you think there is a point?
  362. # [17:10] <gsnedders> haha thinking doing anything with TC-39 is worthwhile if you're not a member of TC-39, that's cute
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  365. # [17:16] <Domenic> annevk: am awake
  366. # [17:17] <Domenic> curious on your thoughts on my latest custom elements post
  367. # [17:17] <Domenic> i think it makes upgrading a minimum viable part of the mvp
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  370. # [17:17] <annevk> Domenic: the Dmitry solution?
  371. # [17:17] <Domenic> yes
  372. # [17:18] <annevk> Domenic: I was not thrilled at first, but then I read Jonas' almost-synchronous solution which wasn't great either
  373. # [17:19] <Domenic> I think the Dmitry solution is pretty nice. The biggest problem with the current setup is that C1 = document.registerElement("my-el", C2) gives C1 !== C2
  374. # [17:19] <Domenic> with Dmitry's solution they are ===
  375. # [17:19] <annevk> Domenic: it seems even wycats is not too opposed to the Dmitry solution although it has the Brain transplant properties...
  376. # [17:22] <annevk> Domenic: the main thing I dislike is that it's quite a bit different from normal elements
  377. # [17:22] <annevk> Domenic: but I guess that's always going to be the case, given where we put the security boundaries
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  379. # [17:23] <Domenic> For parses that happen after registration you could use the real constructor using Jonas's technique more or less, I think. But for parses before registration I think not having identity at parse time is the only reasonable thing.
  380. # [17:23] <annevk> Domenic: I don't think we should do both
  381. # [17:23] <annevk> Domenic: that makes it racy whether certain things end up working
  382. # [17:24] <Domenic> Normal elements could probably work the way of the Dmitry solution
  383. # [17:25] <Domenic> Probably nobody wants to implement that but seems doable.
  384. # [17:25] <annevk> Domenic: the element-constructors repo looks really great btw
  385. # [17:25] <Domenic> Thanks :). Needs a bit more work, but I am happy that it is possible.
  386. # [17:26] <annevk> Yeah, I think as some suggested on the list we want to require magic tokens for a few to make forward compatibility a bit better, but overall this looks like the way to go
  387. # [17:26] <TabAtkins> I'm so happy that someone who understands JS better than I do is making this happen. ^_^
  388. # [17:26] <Domenic> Hopefully can restrict it to HTMLUnknownElement.
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  390. # [17:27] <annevk> Even though it's rather weird that elements have both duck typing and identity but I guess we're not going to remove that anytime soon
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  395. # [17:31] <Domenic> What do you mean by that exactly?
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  398. # [17:33] * hemanth : Node Module Of The Week -> http://nmotw.in/isomorphic-fetch/
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  400. # [17:36] <annevk> Domenic: that you check the identity of an element by name/namespace rather than class
  401. # [17:37] <Domenic> Yeah but if we maintain the invariants in the readme then those have a 1:1 correspondence so it becomes observably the same
  402. # [17:37] <annevk> Domenic: similar to how ES prescribes that you check for [[WeakMapData]] but then makes these slots so unique you can do it either way...
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  404. # [17:38] <annevk> Domenic: I would like <my-button> to be able to be a subclass of <button> at some point
  405. # [17:38] <annevk> Domenic: not right away, but at some point
  406. # [17:38] <Domenic> Ah I see
  407. # [17:38] <annevk> Domenic: and forget about is="" for now since it's ugly and Apple is not interested
  408. # [17:38] <Domenic> is="" is currently the only way to get accessibility
  409. # [17:39] <Domenic> Plus other various gaps that HTML as Custom Elements documents
  410. # [17:39] <annevk> What's wrong with ARIA?
  411. # [17:39] <Domenic> it doesn't cover e.g. focus
  412. # [17:39] * TabAtkins isn't super-hyped about dropping something when it's sure to lead to more "Google spec doesn't care about a11y" shouting...
  413. # [17:40] <Domenic> TabAtkins: heh, Mozilla is already getting the blame. https://twitter.com/stevefaulkner/status/555757553062535168
  414. # [17:40] <annevk> Domenic: anything with tabindex can get focus
  415. # [17:41] <Domenic> annevk: or general manipulability with the keyboard. You have to hand-code all the event listeners.https://w3c.github.io/webcomponents/spec/custom/#custom-tag-example
  416. # [17:41] <annevk> Is is="" going to be the new longdesc=""?
  417. # [17:42] <annevk> Domenic: if your element is doing anything novel that is going to be the case either way, but to be clear I wouldn't want this to stay this way forever
  418. # [17:42] <TabAtkins> No, eventually we'll just have <my-button>, presumably.
  419. # [17:42] <annevk> Domenic: I would like to solve this too, but I don't think is="" is the way to go
  420. # [17:42] <Domenic> <my-button> subclassing button seems doable if Boris changes all the Gecko code and we fill all the HTML as Custom Elements gaps
  421. # [17:42] <wycats> annevk: I think Dmitry's approach is the local-maxima for brain transplants
  422. # [17:42] <wycats> I'd like to explore options other than brain transplants though
  423. # [17:43] <annevk> wycats: I have the options here: https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/CustomElements#Upgrading
  424. # [17:43] <annevk> wycats: though explanation/drawbacks is not as complete as it could be
  425. # [17:43] <wycats> annevk: I need to propose the "import-in-html" thing
  426. # [17:43] <wycats> which isn't represented there
  427. # [17:43] <Domenic> "Not having identity at creation-time is a giant mismatch with the rest of the platform." I think in theory the rest of the platform could match
  428. # [17:43] <annevk> Domenic: if all browsers change all the code rather :-P
  429. # [17:44] <Domenic> Or at least I would be interested to tease out the exact problems that occur if we tried to make it match
  430. # [17:44] <wycats> Domenic: seems tricky
  431. # [17:44] <Domenic> wycats: I don't see how. If we run createdCallback "before user script", it's only inside the createdCallback that the uninitialized state of other elements is observable
  432. # [17:45] <annevk> wycats: even with import-in-html one of these four strategies needs to be used I think to actually create instances from markup
  433. # [17:45] <Domenic> and you can't override the createdCallbacks that the built-ins supplied to the browser at start-up time
  434. # [17:45] <wycats> annevk: sure, yes
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  436. # [17:46] <annevk> really three strategies, I only added the existing prototype one for comparison sake
  437. # [17:46] <Domenic> I *guess* this scenario would be observably different: <my-el></my-el><p>; inside the createdCallback() for my-el you would observe this.nextSibling is HTMLElement instead of HTMLParagraphElement
  438. # [17:46] <Domenic> But you could solve even that if you create a priority queue system where the elements that are registered first are called first
  439. # [17:47] <Domenic> So then just say that <p> registered its callbacks before <my-el> so it gets upgraded + createdCallback first, so inside <my-el>'s createdCallback() you end up seeing the post-upgrade <p>.
  440. # [17:47] <annevk> I guess I need to reread how Dmitry's solution works exactly
  441. # [17:47] <Domenic> So I think the brain transplant is not observably different from the existing platform.
  442. # [17:47] <Domenic> i.e. all existing elements can be explained in terms of it.
  443. # [17:48] <wycats> Domenic: fwiw, this is my very very very very very very straw-man: https://gist.github.com/wycats/b67eb065e5862902a7ee
  444. # [17:48] <Domenic> with this additional idea that you run callbacks in order of registration
  445. # [17:48] <wycats> for imports-in-html
  446. # [17:48] <wycats> like... so straw man that the syntax isn't worth bikeshedding at all
  447. # [17:48] <wycats> the key point is the semantics
  448. # [17:48] <Domenic> wycats: so you can only use custom elements inside templates?
  449. # [17:48] <wycats> Domenic: <template> is a straw-man to get inert DOM
  450. # [17:48] <Domenic> sure I don't care about the name
  451. # [17:49] <Domenic> So you can't just write .html files using custom elements
  452. # [17:49] <wycats> Domenic: my original approach was to just say that any element that contained imports was inert
  453. # [17:49] <wycats> which is also fine
  454. # [17:49] <Domenic> so that's just equivalent to sync script then
  455. # [17:49] <wycats> deny
  456. # [17:49] <wycats> Domenic: read down
  457. # [17:49] <wycats> it's async, and there is fallback content
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  459. # [17:50] <Domenic> right, but same idea of blocking the real content until the definition loads.
  460. # [17:50] <wycats> yes
  461. # [17:50] <wycats> but not actually blocking the main thread
  462. # [17:50] <Domenic> sure, <script> doesn't block the main thread, it just blocks parsing the real content
  463. # [17:50] <wycats> Domenic: the thing that I'm most struggling with is the fact that usually "loading" is a coarser thing than a single element
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  465. # [17:50] <wycats> Domenic: I don't think it's worth analogizing to sync script
  466. # [17:50] <wycats> it's not meant to work like sync script
  467. # [17:51] <Domenic> it is very much worth analogizing because this is just a tweak to the sync script proposal
  468. # [17:51] <wycats> the sync script proposal has no way to show other subsequent content
  469. # [17:51] <wycats> it seems... not the same?
  470. # [17:51] <Domenic> sure it does
  471. # [17:51] <Domenic> just place the ocntent there and replace it when hte script runs
  472. # [17:51] <wycats> the main characteristic of sync script is that the sync script blocks the world
  473. # [17:52] <Domenic> that... is not how scripts work
  474. # [17:52] <Domenic> they block parsing, not the world
  475. # [17:52] <wycats> Domenic: by "the world", what I mean is that no further content can be put on the page
  476. # [17:53] <wycats> Domenic: maybe we're talking past each other
  477. # [17:53] <Domenic> so yours allows placing the fallback content spatially after the <import> in the source document; but with <scirpt> you just place it spatially before
  478. # [17:54] <wycats> Domenic: yes, and then you're responsible for removing it, AND you cannot put anything else on the page once you hit an area of HTML that requires custom elements
  479. # [17:54] <wycats> Domenic: I'm pretty sure we're not talking about the same thing
  480. # [17:54] <wycats> what I'm suggesting encapsulates the "blocking" to an area of HTML
  481. # [17:54] <wycats> it does not block ALL subsequent parsing
  482. # [17:55] <wycats> and the thing is: you usually want loading behavior to be coarser than targeting individual unknown elements with CSS
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  484. # [17:57] <annevk> Domenic: <script> blocks the main thread, no?
  485. # [17:58] <Domenic> annevk: I don't think so. E.g. if you do <script>setTimeout(fn);</script><script src="takes-a-long-time-to-load.js"></script> I am pretty sure fn runs after ~0 ms, not after the load.
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  487. # [17:58] <annevk> Domenic: sure, but anything after <script> won't show
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  489. # [17:58] <Domenic> annevk: right that's what I mean by blocking parsing but not the main thread
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  493. # [18:00] <annevk> Domenic: from what I understood from the <import> idea the parser would just keep going constructing the DOM
  494. # [18:00] <annevk> Domenic: you'd get a placeholder of sorts
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  496. # [18:00] <wycats> annevk: yes, for the container containing the <import>s
  497. # [18:00] <wycats> but not for anything subsequent
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  499. # [18:01] <wycats> and the placeholder could be user-supplied fallback content, like a coarse-grained loader spinner
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  505. # [18:11] <wycats> it's pretty analogous to how the notional <module> will work
  506. # [18:11] <wycats> but for HTML instead of script
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  513. # [18:37] <annevk> wycats: given that you still need one of the upgrading mechanisms from the wiki page, wouldn't it make sense to pick one from those? Or do you think this proposal would influence the decision? (In which case my advice would be to write up the basic processing model and post it someplace...)
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  515. # [18:39] <wycats> I think it would influence it because it eliminates user-visible unknown elements in these cases
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  517. # [18:39] <wycats> Which I think is a weakness in the other async proposals
  518. # [18:41] <wycats> annevk: in other words, DOM replacement may work just fine because there's no space for someone to qSA and grab onto the wrong element
  519. # [18:41] <Domenic> if it's not observable you could choose any of the alternatives
  520. # [18:41] <Domenic> DOM replacement would still fire observable mutation observer callbacks though
  521. # [18:42] <annevk> wycats: what kind of DOM replacement is this?
  522. # [18:42] <annevk> wycats: the original node is not an actual element?
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  525. # [18:47] <annevk> http://www.fastcompany.com/3037803/the-oral-history-of-the-poop-emoji-or-how-google-brought-poop-to-america "I used some external power. I went to the product manager of Gmail, who manages everything about Gmail, and got [him to agree] that this is the most useful emoji."
  526. # [18:52] <wycats> Domenic: no
  527. # [18:52] <wycats> Domenic: let me try to be precise
  528. # [18:52] <wycats> it sounds like there is some consternation about *actually* running user code during the time period of parsing
  529. # [18:52] <wycats> I can understand that
  530. # [18:52] <wycats> so what I'm proposing is a second pass that replaces the dummy nodes inserted *in the algorithm* with new nodes
  531. # [18:53] <wycats> but no mutation observers would fire and the entire process would be purely in-algorithm
  532. # [18:54] <Domenic> is this observably different from blocking the parse (for that subtree) as you run the constructors
  533. # [18:54] <Domenic> it seems like it is because nextSibling would be null in blocking the parse but would be a dummy node in your version
  534. # [18:55] <Domenic> which is bad because the observable dummy node would be replaced by a custom element but no mutation observers would fire
  535. # [18:56] <wycats> Domenic: I personally would prefer if user-code worked just like platform code (and constructors run inline) but that seems to be a no-go
  536. # [18:56] <wycats> Domenic: why would nextSibling be the dummy node in my version?
  537. # [18:56] <wycats> you would run the constructor before doing the replacement
  538. # [18:56] <Domenic> yes but you've only replaced one of them
  539. # [18:56] <Domenic> oh i see
  540. # [18:57] <Domenic> it's not even in the DOM when the constructor is run
  541. # [18:57] <Domenic> Same problem with attachedCallback thoug
  542. # [18:57] <Domenic> user-code can work just like platform-code in the Dmitry version, as I outlined
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  545. # [18:58] <wycats> Domenic: say more about attachedCallback?
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  548. # [18:59] <Domenic> <my-el1></my-el1><my-el2></my-el2>
  549. # [18:59] <wycats> wouldn't you wait to run those callbacks until all nodes were replaced?
  550. # [18:59] <wycats> basically try to make the observable semantics equivalent to inline constructors
  551. # [18:59] <Domenic> the definition of attachedCallback is that it runs when inserting
  552. # [18:59] <Domenic> if you change that I guess you can avoid observing it
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  554. # [19:00] <wycats> there is no other user code that runs
  555. # [19:00] <wycats> surely the only real requirement is that it runs after inserting and before any other user code?
  556. # [19:00] <Domenic> yes but they have to run in order
  557. # [19:01] <wycats> right. I guess what I'm saying is that we make the semantics "execute constructors inline" and that this is a strategy implementations can use that is equivalent to those semantics
  558. # [19:01] <wycats> that won't pwn their existing code
  559. # [19:01] <Domenic> Ah so the Jonas solution.
  560. # [19:02] <wycats> I don't see it in annevk's list
  561. # [19:02] <wycats> or do I
  562. # [19:02] <Domenic> Hmm yeah I don't think it's linked
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  564. # [19:02] <annevk> shit yeah, that needs to be added
  565. # [19:03] <annevk> The almost-synchronous constructor
  566. # [19:03] <annevk> wycats: for now, see https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014JanMar/0098.html
  567. # [19:03] <Domenic> wycats: "in a modules world" is a bad way to lead an argument :-/
  568. # [19:04] <Domenic> if we have learned anyhting over the last two years it's that you can't block a feature on modules eventually shipping
  569. # [19:04] <wycats> Domenic: we think modules aren't going to be the dominant way people write JS in 5 years?
  570. # [19:04] <wycats> hm
  571. # [19:04] <wycats> I didn't realize I was suggesting that we block something
  572. # [19:04] <wycats> maybe I missed something subtle?
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  574. # [19:05] <Domenic> you weren't suggesting it outright, but the implication that your suggestion works better in a modules world makes it easy to immediately dismiss your suggestion
  575. # [19:05] <Domenic> would be better to just work in the world we have and use `Element.ready` instead of `ready`
  576. # [19:05] <wycats> Domenic: annevk: ha! The Jonas solution is almost 1:1 with the way Ember handles components!
  577. # [19:05] <wycats> sure
  578. # [19:05] <wycats> Domenic: that makes sense
  579. # [19:05] <wycats> [Element.ready] works fine too
  580. # [19:05] <wycats> and is hardly longer than readyCallback
  581. # [19:06] <Domenic> yeah I am coming around to the symbols
  582. # [19:06] <wycats> do you want to reply with that or should I follow-up and say you suggested it?
  583. # [19:06] <Domenic> I can do it
  584. # [19:06] <wycats> Domenic: As a framework author, I'm loathe to be as dismissive of the future issues
  585. # [19:07] <wycats> symbols let you be really short and declarative about what you're doing, at the cost of slightly more boilerplate around the symbol
  586. # [19:07] <wycats> strings make you have to worry about all other ecosystem users
  587. # [19:07] <wycats> See A.p.contains :P
  588. # [19:07] <wycats> s/declarative/clear/
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  591. # [19:10] <annevk> wycats: would you suggest symbols for everything though? If we add a new property to an element?
  592. # [19:10] <annevk> wycats: or just hooks?
  593. # [19:11] <wycats> annevk: just hooks
  594. # [19:11] <annevk> good
  595. # [19:11] <Domenic> hmm why
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  597. # [19:11] <Domenic> i don't want to add symbols for everything but i don't see why the argument doesn't apply
  598. # [19:11] <wycats> Domenic: hm... mostly experience with Ember but I should try to quantify
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  600. # [19:12] <annevk> Domenic: so the concern would be that a subclass of <img> adds .exif and then the browser can no longer add it? Or the browser adds it and breaks the subclass? Meh
  601. # [19:12] <wycats> right... those issues seem minor
  602. # [19:12] <wycats> compared to hooks
  603. # [19:12] <wycats> where you could be invoking random code
  604. # [19:12] <wycats> that didn't expect to be invoked
  605. # [19:12] <Domenic> that makes sense
  606. # [19:13] <wycats> Domenic: it's similar to how we can get away with new globals
  607. # [19:13] <wycats> because worst-case things get shadowed
  608. # [19:14] <wycats> Domenic: Polymer decided not to use *Callback it seems
  609. # [19:14] <wycats> they removed all of the `Callback` suffixes :P
  610. # [19:14] <wycats> http://note.io/1ygHes0
  611. # [19:15] <Domenic> I don't really know the details but I think polymer element definitions don't correspond to the CE prototype exactly
  612. # [19:15] <wycats> right
  613. # [19:15] <wycats> this table has some details
  614. # [19:15] <Domenic> lunch, bbl
  615. # [19:15] <wycats> Domenic: I think obviously internal DOM properties should be using private state of some stripe
  616. # [19:16] <annevk> https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/CustomElements#Upgrading now has "Jonas"
  617. # [19:16] <wycats> (which is a real issue with subclasses in Ember and we're pretty careful with `_` which doesn't help enough)
  618. # [19:16] <wycats> annevk: I find it interesting that Ember's approach is similar to Jonas
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  620. # [19:16] <wycats> we do breadth-first recursive rendering
  621. # [19:17] <wycats> and we have an abstraction called "morph"
  622. # [19:17] <wycats> which is the bookkeeping
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  624. # [19:17] <wycats> it uses empty text nodes
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  651. # [20:37] <dglazkov> Domenic: what was the outcome of this thread? https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014JulSep/0355.html
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  655. # [20:41] <Domenic> dglazkov: nothing, nobody cares :(
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  657. # [20:43] <Domenic> I guess that one was where I learned a few things and cleared up a few of my wrong misconceptions. It eventually fed into https://github.com/domenic/html-as-custom-elements/blob/master/docs/accessibility.md which is more accurate than that thread's OP
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  661. # [20:46] <annevk> dglazkov: Domenic: I'd be happy to help tackle that, making accessibility work is important
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  663. # [20:46] <Domenic> \o/
  664. # [20:46] <Domenic> Looking forward to a faithful <custom-span>!
  665. # [20:48] <annevk> Yeah, I've been focusing on figuring out the new low-level bits now JavaScript is finally in shape, but we should definitely revisit old threads such as that one
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  668. # [20:49] <annevk> I'm starting to dislike the timezone difference for this project, but I guess it's going well enough
  669. # [20:50] <Domenic> I need to wake up earlier, heh
  670. # [20:50] <Domenic> Been getting in at 11 this week :-/
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  672. # [20:52] <Domenic> annevk: there is also a proposal for fixing focus, https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k93Ez6yNSyWQDtGjdJJqTBPmljk9l2WS3JTe5OHHB50/edit, although it is pretty confused right now. (See my comment at the top.)
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  686. # [21:09] <Hixie> who's in charge of WebIDL these days?
  687. # [21:10] <TabAtkins> Still heycam|away
  688. # [21:11] <Ms2ger> Hixie, and bz in practice
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  691. # [21:14] <Hixie> k, thanks
  692. # [21:14] * Hixie ccs bz
  693. # [21:23] <jochen__> when an event handler for the beforeunload event returns an object where the toString method throws an exception
  694. # [21:23] <jochen__> should the browser fire an error event
  695. # [21:23] <jochen__> or should it just swallow the exception and continue to unload?
  696. # [21:24] * Hixie looks at the spec
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  698. # [21:24] <jochen__> i can tell you what chrome does
  699. # [21:25] <jochen__> if the navigation was triggered from js, it fires the error event, if it was triggered by the user, it crashes
  700. # [21:26] <Hixie> well it definitely shouldn't crash. :-)
  701. # [21:26] <jochen__> can't we just spec it like that?
  702. # [21:26] <jochen__> i'm actually trying to fix it, but i don't know what the right fix would be
  703. # [21:27] <Hixie> yeah
  704. # [21:27] <Hixie> the specs are very unhelpful here
  705. # [21:27] <Hixie> even the most generous reading of HTML, WebIDL, and JS doesn't answer the question
  706. # [21:27] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  707. # [21:28] <jochen__> so
  708. # [21:28] <jochen__> what should i do?
  709. # [21:28] <Hixie> not sure how to fix this
  710. # [21:28] <Hixie> "If the return value is null, then cancel the event."
  711. # [21:28] <Hixie> "Otherwise, If the Event object E is a BeforeUnloadEvent object, and the Event object E's returnValue attribute's value is the empty string, then set the returnValue attribute's value to return value."
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  713. # [21:29] <Hixie> does that first call valueOf() then toString() ?
  714. # [21:29] <Hixie> or valueOf() then toString() on that?
  715. # [21:29] <Hixie> or...?
  716. # [21:29] <Hixie> oh wait wait
  717. # [21:29] <Hixie> i'm looking in the wrong place
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  720. # [21:29] <Hixie> i should be looking in the handling of callback return values
  721. # [21:30] <Hixie> http://heycam.github.io/webidl/#es-invoking-callback-functions
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  724. # [21:31] <Hixie> "end these steps and allow the exception to propagate"
  725. # [21:31] <Hixie> so i should catch the exception in the "event handler processing algorithm"
  726. # [21:31] <jochen__> mhm
  727. # [21:31] <Hixie> in step 3
  728. # [21:32] <jochen__> but where does it propagate to, if script is not running?
  729. # [21:32] <Hixie> my algorithm, which then crashes with an uncaught exception
  730. # [21:32] <Hixie> so technically chrome is matching the spec
  731. # [21:32] <Hixie> :-P
  732. # [21:32] <Hixie> for DOM event dispatch, the dom spec says "If this throws any exception, report the exception."
  733. # [21:33] <Hixie> i just need to add that sentence to HTML
  734. # [21:33] <Hixie> well actually
  735. # [21:33] <Hixie> no!
  736. # [21:33] <Hixie> this is well defined after all!
  737. # [21:33] <Hixie> (well not really but arguably)
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  739. # [21:33] <Hixie> my algorithm gets the exception, aborting it (that's poorly defined but matches exception semantics)
  740. # [21:33] <Hixie> then it gets back to the DOM algorithm
  741. # [21:33] <Hixie> which reports the exception
  742. # [21:34] <Hixie> so to answer your question: it should fire an error event
  743. # [21:35] <jochen__> k
  744. # [21:35] <jochen__> sounds like a plan :)
  745. # [21:35] <jochen__> thx
  746. # [21:37] <Hixie> i'll make HTML clearer about this
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  749. # [21:44] <Hixie> hrm, webidl doesn't actually give a hook for calling callbacks
  750. # [21:44] <Hixie> that seems like an omission of note...
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  761. # [22:20] <Hixie> what do i replace DOMStringList with, if I have to spec an API that uses DOMStringList?
  762. # [22:20] <Hixie> uses in implementations, i mean
  763. # [22:20] <TabAtkins> It returns a list of DOMStrings? Is it live?
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  774. # [22:41] <Hixie> TabAtkins: ancestorOrigins. Can't be changed, so not really live.
  775. # [22:41] <TabAtkins> Oh, is this an attribute on something?
  776. # [22:42] <Hixie> Location.ancestorOrigins
  777. # [22:42] <Hixie> returns the origins of the ancestor frames
  778. # [22:42] <TabAtkins> Bah. WebIDL still doesn't allow using a sequence<> in attributes (but also still doesn't provide any other option).
  779. # [22:43] <Hixie> what is api-compatible with DOMStringList? anything?
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  781. # [22:44] <TabAtkins> Aside from .item(), Array is compatible.
  782. # [22:44] <TabAtkins> (It now has a .contains() method.)
  783. # [22:44] <Hixie> maybe i just return an Array
  784. # [22:44] <Ms2ger> .includes(), actually
  785. # [22:44] <Ms2ger> .contains() is dead
  786. # [22:45] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  787. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Ugh, MDN is out of date, then.
  788. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> Hixie: You can't return an array in an attribute.
  789. # [22:45] <Ms2ger> May well be
  790. # [22:45] * Ms2ger looks
  791. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> At least, not through WebIDL.
  792. # [22:45] <Hixie> why not?
  793. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> Because it's not possible.
  794. # [22:46] <Hixie> readonly attribute object foo;
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  796. # [22:46] <TabAtkins> That's not enough. It doesn't protect the array from being changed.
  797. # [22:46] <TabAtkins> It just means you can't *replace* the array.
  798. # [22:46] <Ms2ger> Wuh
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  800. # [22:46] <Ms2ger> <TabAtkins> Hixie: You can't return an array in an attribute.
  801. # [22:46] <Ms2ger> Sure you can
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  803. # [22:46] <Hixie> you just return a readonly array
  804. # [22:46] <TabAtkins> readonly just means there's only a getter, not a setter.
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  806. # [22:47] <TabAtkins> The array is still mutable.
  807. # [22:47] <Hixie> not if you say it's not...
  808. # [22:47] <TabAtkins> There's no way to indicate otherwise in WebIDL.
  809. # [22:47] <Ms2ger> Are we talking Array or T[]?
  810. # [22:47] <TabAtkins> T[] isn't an Array at all.
  811. # [22:48] <Ms2ger> It's called one
  812. # [22:48] <Ms2ger> Well, not Array, but array
  813. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: It's possible that i'm still totally turned around by the sequence<T>/T[]/Array mess that IDL is full of.
  814. # [22:48] <Hixie> the prototype of a T[] is Array
  815. # [22:48] <Ms2ger> Anyway, T[] is dead
  816. # [22:48] <Hixie> so it seems pretty arrayy to me
  817. # [22:48] <Hixie> there's a bunch of places in HTML where i return read-only arrays iirc
  818. # [22:48] <Hixie> in any case i don't really care what i return
  819. # [22:49] <Hixie> just need to know what it should be
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  821. # [22:49] <Hixie> in what sense is T[] dead?
  822. # [22:50] <Hixie> http://heycam.github.io/webidl/#es-array seems to describe them in detail
  823. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> In that no APIs should use them.
  824. # [22:50] <Ms2ger> In that heycam|away should edit the spec
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  826. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> They're not Arrays, they're magical platform objects with Array on their prototype.
  827. # [22:50] <Hixie> sounds good to me
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  829. # [22:52] <Domenic> the plan is to have FrozenArray<T> or something
  830. # [22:53] <Domenic> heycam|away says that's his next priority IIRC
  831. # [22:53] <Hixie> ugh i hate frozen stuff
  832. # [22:53] <Hixie> it doesn't let you add custom properties
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  834. # [22:54] <Hixie> in any case it looks like my choices are: a) revive DOMStringList and exactly match Chrome's implementation; b) use the deprecated read only array DOMString[] platform array object; c) punt even longer
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  841. # [23:07] <Hixie> looks like other uses of DOMStringList got turned into DOMString[]
  842. # [23:07] <Hixie> so i'll go with that for now
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  844. # [23:10] <Hixie> anyone got an IDN site that uses arrays handy?
  845. # [23:10] <Hixie> er
  846. # [23:10] <Hixie> that uses iframes, even
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  857. # [23:34] <heycam> yes I should just get around and do that
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  877. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> heycam: If I can get off my ass and finally write the @extend spec, you can fix up that part of WebIDL. ^_^
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  881. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> Also: figure out how I can do the same with dicts, plzkthx.
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  1073. # [23:55] * nicolasbadia___ is now known as nicolasbadia
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  1075. # [23:56] * jkomoros______ is now known as jkomoros_____
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  1080. # Session Close: Fri Jan 16 00:00:00 2015

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