/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-02-12 / end

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  52. # [02:06] <karlcow> http://engineering.flipboard.com/2015/02/mobile-web/
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  57. # [02:13] <MikeSmith> 60fps on the mobile Web, problem solved
  58. # [02:13] <MikeSmith> we'll just all use canvas!
  59. # [02:14] <MikeSmith> it's amazing that nobody's ever thought to do this before
  60. # [02:16] <karlcow> MikeSmith: they speak about Bespin in the article :)
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  67. # [02:32] <wanderview> Accept is not a simple CORS header? but things like Accept-Language are?
  68. # [02:32] <wanderview> oh... nm
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  184. # [09:20] <zcorpan> annevk: https://www.chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity/465 looks like it's not declining particularly fast
  185. # [09:21] <annevk> zcorpan: yeah
  186. # [09:22] <annevk> zcorpan: still seems sane for browsers to warn about it though
  187. # [09:22] <zcorpan> maybe it's more effective to not talk about removing the feature but only talk about why using it is bad
  188. # [09:22] <annevk> zcorpan: e.g. the jQuery crowd started acting based on this I believe
  189. # [09:23] <annevk> zcorpan: and that latest thread was just ridiculous, someone arguing that you need synchronous fetching for scrolling...
  190. # [09:24] <zcorpan> yes
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  192. # [09:28] <Domenic> I wonder if we could quarantine it to only pages that we already know are using it
  193. # [09:28] <Domenic> origins i guess would be the granularity boundary
  194. # [09:30] <annevk> Probably eTLD+1 given document.domain, but maybe
  195. # [09:35] <annevk> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqHL9hKhX6I This <core-list> seems to be essentially what React is doing, just in a different way
  196. # [09:36] <annevk> So the argument that putting a lot of items in the DOM and rendering that quickly is impossible, is not disproven
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  206. # [10:09] <annevk> philipj: you want to support promises from the prefixed version of the Fullscreen API?
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  208. # [10:09] <philipj> annevk: no
  209. # [10:09] <philipj> did I write a terrible typ?
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  212. # [10:11] <philipj> so, it would probably not be hard to support it for the prefixed APIs, I'm just not sure what the point would be
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  214. # [10:11] <philipj> if shipped together with the unprefixed API, people who adapt to use promises should also stop using the prefixed API
  215. # [10:13] <philipj> annevk: I have "Read Fullscreen mail" on this weeks todo list, if the sudden interest in all things fullscreen seems out of characters
  216. # [10:14] <annevk> philipj: it sounded like you wanted to add promises before the unprefixed version was shipped
  217. # [10:14] <annevk> philipj: but perhaps you just meant added to the specification, which seems fine
  218. # [10:15] <annevk> philipj: like you I have taken a Fullscreen break
  219. # [10:15] <annevk> philipj: I still need to look at Hixie's changes to the event loop to allow for synchronization with animation frames
  220. # [10:16] <annevk> philipj: also, I guess we need to decide whether the promise needs to reject or return false or some such
  221. # [10:16] <philipj> annevk: I mean to the spec, and to only return the promises from the unprefixed API, by whatever implementation strategy is required to make it so
  222. # [10:16] <philipj> since it's a return value I think it's easy to just not update the prefixed IDL
  223. # [10:17] <philipj> annevk: you mean when the fullscreen ready check fails?
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  227. # [10:21] <annevk> philipj: yeah
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  229. # [10:23] <annevk> Okay, so the callback from HTML is "run the fullscreen rendering steps" and a timestamp
  230. # [10:23] <annevk> philipj: do you know what Fullscreen would use the timestamp for?
  231. # [10:24] <philipj> annevk: no idea, that sounds odd
  232. # [10:25] <annevk> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/webappapis.html#processing-model-9 step 8.8
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  238. # [10:40] <JakeA> annevk: re BackgroundSync ux: my current thinking is that one-off syncs should create some kind of sticky notification saying "Waiting to sync" or similar until the sync successfully completes
  239. # [10:40] <JakeA> No idea what to do with periodic syncing though
  240. # [10:41] <annevk> JakeA: where would that display?
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  248. # [10:52] <JakeA> annevk: on Android, same place as native notifications
  249. # [10:52] <annevk> JakeA: is one-off a thing that native applications get too?
  250. # [10:53] * annevk only remembers periodic background update UX
  251. # [10:54] <philipj> annevk: it sure looks like it's just passed for good measure, in case it's needed
  252. # [10:56] <annevk> philipj: the weird thing about Hixie's setup is that I can't queue some set of steps for this callback
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  255. # [10:57] <annevk> philipj: I'd imagine there being some slot that has the set of actions that needs to be performed
  256. # [10:57] <annevk> philipj: but perhaps we need to define that ourselves as it's different for all the different cases?
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  258. # [10:57] <philipj> annevk: can't you do whatever you want in "the fullscreen rendering steps"?
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  260. # [10:57] <annevk> philipj: yeah I can
  261. # [10:58] <annevk> philipj: it's just that the whole task queueing model surrounding it does a lot more for you, but I guess that's oaky
  262. # [10:58] <annevk> okay*
  263. # [10:58] <philipj> I had imagined that there would be a generic bucket called "run the animation frame tasks" right before the callbacks, and that it would be possible to queue such tasks
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  265. # [11:00] <philipj> if this spec is implemented quite literally it seems like a bit of an odd polling model
  266. # [11:04] <JakeA> annevk: https://developer.android.com/reference/android/app/AlarmManager.html see set(). That doesn't seem to deal with connectivity though
  267. # [11:04] <annevk> philipj: well it's something like that, except without the generic bucket
  268. # [11:04] <annevk> philipj: presumably so that all these things happen in the correct order?
  269. # [11:05] <philipj> annevk: I guess, although a task queue also has an order same as regular tasks really
  270. # [11:05] <annevk> JakeA: yeah, it seems you have wake-on-time, wake-on-network, wake-periodic-on-network, wake-on-times
  271. # [11:06] <philipj> If some of these steps (like resize/scroll) can influence later steps then fixinf the order is reasonable
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  273. # [11:06] <annevk> philipj: so I'd imagine we have a slot on the global and then make HTML's callback run the code in that slot
  274. # [11:06] <JakeA> annevk: I don't see network stuff there
  275. # [11:06] <annevk> philipj: which is effectively the same as queuing a task except having it run at a specific time
  276. # [11:07] <annevk> JakeA: sorry, was combining that with what we have
  277. # [11:07] <annevk> JakeA: as use cases
  278. # [11:07] <JakeA> ahh gotcha
  279. # [11:07] <JakeA> yeah
  280. # [11:07] <annevk> iOS has "Background App Refresh"
  281. # [11:07] <JakeA> Seems that Android makes wake-when-reconnected quite difficult http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15698790/broadcast-receiver-for-checking-internet-connection-in-android-app
  282. # [11:08] <philipj> annevk: I guess your rendering steps are going to do nothing at all most of the time?
  283. # [11:08] <annevk> I think alarm/calendaring is probably related to the "notifications" permission
  284. # [11:08] <philipj> just see if there's a pending task and if so run it?
  285. # [11:08] <annevk> philipj: yeah, I would expect the slot to be empty mostly
  286. # [11:09] <annevk> philipj: that's why I kinda wish Hixie had formalized the slot idea, perhaps I should ask
  287. # [11:09] <philipj> yeah, probably should
  288. # [11:09] <philipj> also, the name "run the fullscreen rendering steps" probably won't make sense
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  290. # [11:10] <philipj> nothing is being rendered, it's just events being fired and state being twiddled
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  292. # [11:11] <annevk> philipj: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=28001
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  296. # [11:13] <annevk> JakeA: perhaps the UX should just be asking for "background updates"
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  298. # [11:13] <annevk> JakeA: and if you have given both "notification" and "background updates" you can get alarms
  299. # [11:14] <JakeA> annevk: on Chrome, I believe we roll background & notification into one permission prompt (for push anyway)
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  301. # [11:15] <annevk> I remember not liking what I heard about push and Chrome
  302. # [11:15] <annevk> but I don't really recall the specifics
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  304. # [11:16] <philipj> annevk: thanks
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  353. # [11:40] <JakeA> annevk: there's a bit of magic at the moment as we ease ourselves into the idea of sites running code in the background
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  355. # [11:41] <JakeA> annevk: specifically, a push event must show a notification unless the site has focus
  356. # [11:41] <annevk> JakeA: I'm not sure that's true
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  358. # [11:41] <annevk> JakeA: if I granted a site the permission to do work in the background, I don't think a notification would need to be shown
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  360. # [11:43] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, but there's a lot of (justified imo) worry around privacy issues
  361. # [11:43] <JakeA> So we want users to be aware that a site did background work
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  363. # [11:43] <JakeA> As it can be used to track location at an IP level
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  365. # [11:44] <JakeA> The hope is to relax this as we work out the UX and user sentiment
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  367. # [11:45] <annevk> I definitely support making it discoverable and easy to disable, etc. But prominent UI whereas native gets away with a better experience does not seem acceptable
  368. # [11:46] <annevk> So yeah, that was the thing that irked me about Chrome and push
  369. # [11:46] <annevk> I think mt is handling that mostly from Mozilla, but maybe I should verify that
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  395. # [12:03] <annevk> Hmm... CORS filtered response does not filter out Set-Cookie and Set-Cookie2 at all times, oops
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  408. # [12:11] <annevk> Fixed
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  412. # [12:15] <JakeA> annevk: once we have a better way to ensure the user knows what's able to run in the background, that restriction will be lifted
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  414. # [12:16] <annevk> I think what was bothering mt was that it was influencing API design
  415. # [12:16] <JakeA> annevk: the big worry is users that are tricked into accepting push for something friendly, but it abusing that without the user knowing
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  425. # [12:23] <annevk> Yeah it's definitely a tricky concept
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  428. # [12:24] <annevk> But I think the problem was that it got to point where Google UX decisions started to influence the API in a way that didn't work for others
  429. # [12:25] <annevk> Need to check with mt what the latest is
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  432. # [12:27] <JakeA> annevk: I'm not aware of API changes that have resulted from this privacy caution
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  436. # [12:28] <JakeA> annevk: the only privacy API change I'm aware of is the requirement to encrypt the push body so the message server can't read it. I think that came mainly from Mozilla
  437. # [12:28] <annevk> JakeA: that's the protocol, no?
  438. # [12:29] <annevk> JakeA: that sounds like a good change
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  440. # [12:29] <JakeA> annevk: it's not the protocol, tls is already required for data transfer
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  445. # [12:32] <JakeA> annevk: the requirement is, when you register for push, the reg object gives you a key & an encryption format, which you send to your server. Before your server sends a message to the messaging-service, you encrypt the body using that format & key.
  446. # [12:33] <JakeA> The messaging-service sends it to the phone, which it decrypts
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  448. # [12:34] <JakeA> So the messaging service doesn't get to see the body of the push
  449. # [12:34] <JakeA> Pretty cool, but really complicates usage & API
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  453. # [12:36] <annevk> I wonder if that could have been done in a simpler way by making use of TLS which is already in place, but I guess people tried to think of that already
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  455. # [12:37] <JakeA> annevk: if you can think of a simpler way, it's still up for debate. We're shipping without message bodies in the meantime.
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  457. # [12:37] <JakeA> I can't think of a way, but my crypto knowledge is weak
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  460. # [12:40] <annevk> It seems like you need something like this
  461. # [12:41] <annevk> JakeA: so what parts will the intermediary learn? Just the origin involved?
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  465. # [12:42] <JakeA> annevk: it'll know the sender & obviously the time of each message
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  467. # [12:43] <annevk> JakeA: yeah, seems hard to avoid
  468. # [12:43] <JakeA> Oh course, if push bodies were unencrypted, there's nothing preventing a site adding their own encryption
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  470. # [12:44] <JakeA> But forcing it seems sensible when the browser/os/messaging service aren't all the same provider
  471. # [12:44] <annevk> Yeah, but as we learned from HTTP, optional is not good long term
  472. # [12:45] <JakeA> annevk: btw, haven't managed to get hold of Hixie, are you up for a call on SW & postMessage tomorrow evening?
  473. # [12:45] <annevk> JakeA: the API draft doesn't seem to include this encryption stuff yet
  474. # [12:46] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, it's still being debated, although I'm not sure where exactly (but I know Mozilla is involved)
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  476. # [12:47] <annevk> JakeA: I feel like I haven't been involved enough in the development of the various postMessage schemes to know what we should be doing
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  478. # [12:48] <JakeA> For the postMesage stuff, I'm still circling on clients receiving messages at navigator.serviceWorker.onmessage, and serviceworker receiving them at self.onmessage. It breaks some of the symmetry, but it's easy to use and doesn't break existing APIs
  479. # [12:48] <JakeA> annevk: if not Hixie, who has enough of this stuff in their head?
  480. # [12:49] <annevk> JakeA: maybe smaug____
  481. # [12:49] <JakeA> smaug____: what say you to some form of synchronous communication to help us get unstuck on ServiceWorker & postMessage?
  482. # [12:50] <JakeA> (and what timezome are you in?)
  483. # [12:50] <annevk> JakeA: so the idea is navigator.serviceWorker.onmessage/navigator.serviceWorker.postMessage and self.onmessage/client.postMessage on the other side?
  484. # [12:50] * smaug____ lives in smaug-timezone as someone put it couple of years ago
  485. # [12:50] <smaug____> JakeA: I live in Helsinki, so EET
  486. # [12:51] <annevk> JakeA+2h
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  488. # [12:51] <smaug____> sync communication ?
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  491. # [12:52] <JakeA> smaug____: a video/voice call
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  494. # [12:53] <JakeA> annevk: swClient.postMessage would land at navgiator.serviceWorker.onmessage, navigator.serviceWorker,controller.postMessage would land at self.onmessage
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  496. # [12:53] <annevk> JakeA: I think that if we try to explain this in terms of message channels (which I think we need in order for this to work) we might get somewhere
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  498. # [12:54] <smaug____> JakeA: eh, I thought you were talking about synchronous communication API
  499. # [12:54] <smaug____> apparently no
  500. # [12:55] <JakeA> annevk: I guess it could be navigator.serviceWorker.controller.onmessage, but I was hoping there'd be a way for a client to listen for messages from *any* SW, rather than having to add onmessage to each and monitor for new SWs appearing & listen to those too
  501. # [12:55] * smaug____ has no idea what the issue is
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  503. # [12:55] <JakeA> smaug____: we're trying to work out how a serviceworker could send a message to a specific client on the same origin
  504. # [12:56] <annevk> JakeA: that is why you need to look into message channels and how you explain the underlying functionality
  505. # [12:56] <JakeA> where a client is a window/worker/sharedworker
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  507. # [12:56] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, that's fair
  508. # [12:56] <annevk> JakeA: currently you're just trying to invent some sugar without understanding what it comes down to
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  513. # [12:57] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, I guess I'm trying to avoid ending up with a semantically pure but virtually impossible to use API. But I should at least be able to explain it in terms of the channel stuff.
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  520. # [13:01] <smaug____> I don't think I know enough about the issue to say anything useful. I'd try to follow the SharedWorker model if possible, but perhaps there is some reason why that doesn't work here
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  527. # [13:04] <annevk> So the main problem with SW is that it can come and go. So its port can get GC'd at any point but we don't really want to lose any messages I think...
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  529. # [13:05] <annevk> So you need some kind of intermediary place where the messages go first. And then whenever an SW boots up they get transmitted until the SW shuts down again.
  530. # [13:05] <JakeA> smaug____: The browser may terminate the serviceworker while it isn't being used to save memory, so the sharedworker model of connect events & keeping posts in scope doesn't work. Also, in the sharedworker model the client must explicitly connect to the sharedworker before the sharedworker can contact the client. I'm hoping the serviceworker can send
  531. # [13:05] <JakeA> messages to specific clients, and all the client has to do to receive them is register an onmessage event somewhere
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  535. # [13:05] <annevk> JakeA: what if the client instead registers an onserviceworkerconnect handler?
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  537. # [13:06] <annevk> JakeA: and gets handed a port there
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  539. # [13:06] <JakeA> annevk: when would that fire?
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  541. # [13:06] <annevk> But yeah, then you have the opposite problem, how to send to the SW
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  543. # [13:07] <JakeA> annevk: I think that problem is solved right? serviceWorkerInstance.postMessage to self.onmessage doesn't feel controversial.
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  545. # [13:07] <JakeA> although I guess there's a reason sharedworker doesn't have something that simple
  546. # [13:07] <annevk> JakeA: that is controversial since you can't explain it in terms of ports
  547. # [13:08] <annevk> JakeA: so I have no idea how it works, exactly
  548. # [13:08] <JakeA> hm
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  550. # [13:08] <annevk> Perhaps something like BroadcastChannel but specific to this scenario?
  551. # [13:09] <JakeA> that model feels like a better fit, but directed at a specific client. It'd be great if it could reuse broadcastChannel fundamentals because Chrome could implement both
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  553. # [13:10] <annevk> So BroadcastChannel could work if you have some identifier unique to the client...
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  558. # [13:11] <annevk> JakeA: I can talk tomorrow night, but I rather not, and also earlier the better
  559. # [13:11] <JakeA> annevk: are you suggesting that the developer has to filter out the messages or that the spec does that?
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  561. # [13:12] <annevk> JakeA: hmm lunch
  562. # [13:12] <annevk> JakeA: my idea was we give the dev some identifier for BroadcastChannel (perhaps through a sublcass) so they get one unique for a particular client
  563. # [13:12] <annevk> back later
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  566. # [13:13] <JakeA> have a good'un. I really should be writing a talk :(
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  611. # [13:44] <jgraham> I think "this is all horrible, but that's life" is my new motto
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  617. # [13:57] <annevk> jgraham: fits you well :-)
  618. # [13:57] <annevk> That was a rather fun email to read
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  620. # [14:00] <annevk> JakeA: so here is an idea
  621. # [14:01] <annevk> JakeA: the document/worker creates a ServiceWorkerChannel
  622. # [14:01] <annevk> JakeA: in the service worker we expose some kind of uuid per client
  623. # [14:01] <annevk> JakeA: then you construct a ClientChannel by passing it that uuid
  624. # [14:01] <annevk> JakeA: and then they entangle and things work
  625. # [14:02] <annevk> JakeA: we could not even expose a uuid and instead just use the Client objects as parameter, keeping the identification hidden
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  627. # [14:03] <annevk> JakeA: it has the fancy pansy constructor design to please Domenic and seems easy enough to use
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  629. # [14:04] <annevk> JakeA: if the SW of a document/worker changes existing ServiceWorkerChannel objects will just get associated anew
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  631. # [14:05] <JakeA> annevk: can a single ServiceWorkerChannel get messages from multiple serviceworkers?
  632. # [14:05] <JakeA> or is it one per sw
  633. # [14:05] <annevk> JakeA: over time
  634. # [14:05] <JakeA> cool
  635. # [14:05] <annevk> JakeA: it's associated with the SW that's associated with the document
  636. # [14:05] <JakeA> So I can get messages from my active worker, an installing worker, and even workers from another scope?
  637. # [14:06] <JakeA> ohh, so I can't get messages from an installing worker
  638. # [14:06] <annevk> we could generalize the design on both sides
  639. # [14:06] <annevk> if you pass it a specific worker/client it can only communicate with that worker/client, otherwise all of them?
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  641. # [14:07] <annevk> however, note that with some clever naming scheme this should be doable on top of BroadcastChannel as well...
  642. # [14:09] <annevk> using the client's url as identifier + adding the type of SW (active, installing, any), or leaving them out if you want a more generic BroadcastChannel
  643. # [14:09] <annevk> so perhaps BroadcastChannel + library is a better way to go
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  645. # [14:11] <JakeA> annevk: if the SW has terminated, how does it get broadcastchannel messages?
  646. # [14:12] <annevk> ah right, that's why we need something special
  647. # [14:12] <annevk> document/worker -> magic -> service worker
  648. # [14:13] <annevk> so yeah, for that primitive we need something very much like BroadcastChannel but with the background queueing
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  650. # [14:14] <annevk> so perhaps ServiceWorkerChannel(optional name) for document/worker and ClientChannel(optional name) for service worker
  651. # [14:14] <JakeA> annevk: maybe the idea of stashed ports is useful here https://gist.github.com/mkruisselbrink/536632fcd99d45005064
  652. # [14:20] <annevk> JakeA: so I'm trying to imagine the flow of that...
  653. # [14:20] <JakeA> annevk: I think this can be done better in similar terms to broadcastchannel
  654. # [14:20] <annevk> JakeA: C connects, SW gets handed a port, stashes port, gets shutdown
  655. # [14:21] <annevk> JakeA: C posts message, SW is booted, gets C connect event with new port?, gets message about stashed port?
  656. # [14:22] <annevk> JakeA: yeah, perhaps we should call it ServiceWorkerChannel on both sides, for the browser it's clear from context what's supposed to happen anyway
  657. # [14:22] <JakeA> annevk: C connects, SW gets handed a port, stashes port, gets shutdown. C posts message, SW is booted, SW gets self.onportmessage with the port & message
  658. # [14:23] <JakeA> annevk: but I still think there's a simpler model
  659. # [14:23] <annevk> JakeA: so if the port is stashed you would not get a connection event but a different one?
  660. # [14:24] <annevk> JakeA: it seems nicer if each time you just run the same code (create a ServiceWorkerChannel)
  661. # [14:25] <JakeA> annevk: In the stashed model, you don't need a connect event
  662. # [14:25] <annevk> JakeA: how do you get handed the port?
  663. # [14:26] <JakeA> annevk: in the onportmessage event? It's transferred from the stash
  664. # [14:26] <annevk> JakeA: so why do you need to retrieve it from the stash?
  665. # [14:26] <annevk> JakeA: seems like you should be able to store and delete them
  666. # [14:27] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, you'd need an AsyncPortCollection
  667. # [14:27] <annevk> JakeA: I do like this idea as it gives you the entire MessagePort ecosystem
  668. # [14:27] <JakeA> annevk: I think I dislike it for that reason :D
  669. # [14:27] <annevk> JakeA: everything that people build on top of ports can then automatically be ported to service workers
  670. # [14:29] <annevk> JakeA: so yeah, PortCollection has these problems: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23412
  671. # [14:29] <JakeA> annevk: also, it doesn't give a way for the SW to contact a particular client. You'd have a collection of ports sure, but it isn't clear which is which
  672. # [14:29] <annevk> JakeA: however, PortStorage or some such doesn't really have the same issues I think
  673. # [14:29] <annevk> JakeA: we'd put the ports on the client objects and make the client objects live
  674. # [14:29] <annevk> JakeA: or some such
  675. # [14:30] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, not only that, but if you stash two entangled ports you've got a leak
  676. # [14:30] <annevk> JakeA: that could throw
  677. # [14:31] <annevk> Yeah I guess you want to store more than just the port, you need some metadata
  678. # [14:32] <annevk> I both like and dislike that this is a hard problem
  679. # [14:35] <annevk> JakeA: so say in clients ServiceWorker objects are live and in service workers Client objects are life, and both of them expose ports
  680. # [14:35] <JakeA> annevk: I'd still like this to be more under-the-hood. Say when a new page/worker is created, it creates a port pair. When the SW gets a client object, client.postMessage goes to port2.postMessage. port1.onmessage proxies to navigator.serviceWorker.onmessage. You could call it onserviceworkermessage is the naming is a problem (since many ports would land
  681. # [14:35] <JakeA> messages there)
  682. # [14:35] <annevk> JakeA: if you want for a particular port to remain active from the point of the service worker you store it, and then you remove it once you no longer care
  683. # [14:35] <annevk> JakeA: once clients are GC'd the corresponding ports in storage can also be GC'd
  684. # [14:36] <annevk> JakeA: I think that would work
  685. # [14:37] <annevk> JakeA: that doesn't really solve any of the persistency problems, that's sugar we could add later
  686. # [14:38] <annevk> (with "I think that would work" I was referring to my proposal)
  687. # [14:39] <JakeA> annevk: so, self.clients.getAll().then(c => c[0]) - c[0] has a .port?
  688. # [14:39] <annevk> JakeA: if clients become live, I would expect self.clients[0] or some such to work
  689. # [14:39] <annevk> JakeA: and yes, it would
  690. # [14:40] <annevk> JakeA: but unless you store it, it'll go dead
  691. # [14:41] <JakeA> annevk: why do they need to be live? (I'm worried about the overhead of updating those live)
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  693. # [14:42] <annevk> JakeA: because the ports are live and it would be kind of weird for static objects to point to live ports that need to be === identical
  694. # [14:44] <JakeA> annevk: so where would client.port.postMessage land?
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  696. # [14:45] <annevk> JakeA: navigator.serviceWorker.x.onmessage
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  698. # [14:46] <JakeA> annevk: where x is a SW instance? So navigator.serviceWorker.controller.onmessage?
  699. # [14:47] <annevk> JakeA: yeah
  700. # [14:48] <annevk> perhaps the ServiceWorkerChannel idea is not that bad as this does seem rather horrid
  701. # [14:48] <annevk> and then have port stashing as a separate feature
  702. # [14:49] <JakeA> I think we've happened upon the hardest problem in computer science
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  704. # [14:50] <JakeA> annevk: but if there's a way for multiple client ports to post message to serviceWorker.onmessage, I think we're getting close to a solution
  705. # [14:51] <annevk> no, ports are 1:1
  706. # [14:51] <JakeA> annevk: if the stashing is under-the-hood, does client.postMessage work?
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  708. # [14:51] <JakeA> hm I'm confused
  709. # [14:51] <annevk> something like BroadcastChannel can be N:N
  710. # [14:52] <JakeA> annevk: I thought you just said clients[0].postMessage and clients[1].postMessage land at navigator.serviceWorker.controller.onmessage
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  712. # [14:54] <annevk> JakeA: yeah, but those would be distinct channels
  713. # [14:54] <annevk> JakeA: one for each client
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  715. # [14:55] <JakeA> annevk: and something underneath proxies them to the single controller.onmessage?
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  720. # [15:02] <annevk> I don't know, which is why I suggested that maybe ports were not the best idea and something like BroadcastChannel would be better
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  722. # [15:04] <caitp-> how many SW do you anticipate living together and coordinating together?
  723. # [15:08] <JakeA> annevk: So if each page/worker created a BroadcastChannel using a unique id, client.postMessage could broadcast to that channel, navigator.serviceWorker.onmessage could receive it. The ServiceWorker could also create a uid BroadCastchannel to explain how serviceWorkerInstance.postMessage works. The trouble is identifying the source of those messages. Ideally
  724. # [15:08] <JakeA> the page wants to get an instance of the SW with the message, and the SW needs a client instance
  725. # [15:09] <JakeA> caitp-: serviceworker-to-serviceworker is being looked at by http://mkruisselbrink.github.io/navigator-connect/ - I don't really know a whole lot about it though
  726. # [15:10] <caitp-> my understanding was that they're sort of expensive, so a single application probably doesn't need to set up a whole bunch of them
  727. # [15:10] <caitp-> unless the idea is that the facebook api needs their own background thread or something, and all of your different tabs need to talk to it
  728. # [15:11] <JakeA> caitp-: that's more of a sharedworker thing I think
  729. # [15:11] <JakeA> A serviceworker registration can have 3 serviceworkers active at once, but that's pretty rare. Usually it's only 1.
  730. # [15:12] <JakeA> The three are installing (setting itself up to be the next version), waiting (ready to be the next version, but the current version is still in use), and active (the current version)
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  732. # [15:15] <JakeA> The installing one would be running, as it's setting up caches and such. The waiting version is rarely running, although I guess it'd have to wake up if you did a postMessage to it. The active version wakes up when it needs to receive events, such as fetch, push, message etc
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  734. # [15:17] <annevk> JakeA: why are you so attached to an existing API?
  735. # [15:18] <annevk> JakeA: if we have something like BroadcastChannel that works for service workers, why not let developers create the abstractions?
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  738. # [15:23] <JakeA> annevk: maybe I'm letting existing things get in the way, but I don't want something more complicated than client[method-to-send-a-message](obj) + window.somewhere.addEventListener('receive-the-message', event => event[way-to-id-the-sender-and-post-a-message-back]) + serviceWorkerInstance[method-to-send-a-message] +
  739. # [15:23] <JakeA> self.addEventListener('receive-the-message', event => event[way-to-id-the-sender-and-post-a-message-back])
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  741. # [15:24] <annevk> what exists?
  742. # [15:24] <annevk> we already shipped something?
  743. # [15:24] <annevk> :-(
  744. # [15:24] <JakeA> huh?
  745. # [15:24] <annevk> "letting existing things get in the way"
  746. # [15:24] <JakeA> You brought up the existing bit. "why are you so attached to an existing API?"
  747. # [15:25] <annevk> Ah yeah, it seems like you have some idea what you want and try to layer anything on top of that idea
  748. # [15:25] <annevk> I'd be much more interested in just exposing the primitives that make messaging possible
  749. # [15:26] <annevk> It seems like we keep realizing that we're bad at API design so we should let developers do it and just expose the bare minimum, but then we don't really do that...
  750. # [15:27] <JakeA> I'm all for exposing primitives but only if it offers something useful & not just overcomplicating
  751. # [15:28] <annevk> If it's a primitive it's by definition not complex
  752. # [15:28] <wanderview> annevk: am I reading the fetch spec correctly in that Access-Control-Allow-Headers is required? https://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#cors-preflight-fetch
  753. # [15:28] <wanderview> I don't see flickr returning that header... but it seem our fetch() calls go through
  754. # [15:28] <annevk> wanderview: that's only used for preflights
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  757. # [15:29] <JakeA> An API to allow a serviceworker to message a specific client, and allowing a client to message a specific serviceworker doesn't sound like high-level luxury
  758. # [15:29] <annevk> wanderview: and only if custom headers are specified
  759. # [15:29] <wanderview> annevk: trained-to-thrill uses custom headers... passes an x-cache header or something
  760. # [15:29] <JakeA> wanderview: those never go to fetch()
  761. # [15:29] <JakeA> The SW stops requests with that header and never passes them to fetch
  762. # [15:30] <wanderview> JakeA: I thought I saw it in my network panel last night... I could have been dreaming, though
  763. # [15:30] <gsnedders> is there telemetry anywhere for what charset decoders are being used in browsers?
  764. # [15:30] <JakeA> wanderview: https://github.com/jakearchibald/trained-to-thrill/blob/master/www/static/js-unmin/sw/index.js#L61
  765. # [15:31] <annevk> JakeA: it is a luxury if you add some kind of weird duplication/distribution thing to the mix, rather than keep it 1:1
  766. # [15:31] <wanderview> JakeA: oh... I think I saw it in the case where SWs weren't enabled... so a fetch() is not done in that case
  767. # [15:31] <JakeA> wanderview: 'accept' is a simple header anyway, so won't trigger preflight
  768. # [15:31] <wanderview> yea
  769. # [15:31] <annevk> JakeA: the alternative is something like BroadcastChannel with optional scoping
  770. # [15:32] <JakeA> wanderview: requests with that 'accept' should only be sent if the page is controlled https://github.com/jakearchibald/trained-to-thrill/blob/master/www/static/js-unmin/index.js#L68
  771. # [15:33] <gsnedders> AFAICT, Mozilla doesn't have any telemetry for that, and I get confused looked for stuff in the Google telemetry
  772. # [15:33] <wanderview> JakeA: hmm... I probably did something stupid :-)
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  775. # [15:39] <annevk> JakeA: given that both sides have to cooperate I don't really see the problem with using SWC
  776. # [15:39] <annevk> JakeA: e.g. new SWC(url + swType) on both sides gives you quite specific control
  777. # [15:40] <annevk> JakeA: you can basically scope the messaging in any way you want, rather than being tied to some specific scenarios we cooked up
  778. # [15:42] <gsnedders> hswolff: I presume the DECODER_INITIATED was the best you could do, and actually having what encoding a given page is would be too expensive and too much data?
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  784. # [15:51] <JakeA> annevk: dumped some requirements at https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/609#issuecomment-74080640
  785. # [15:52] <gsnedders> hswolff: sorry, wrong nick!
  786. # [15:53] <JakeA> annevk: what is swType?
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  792. # [16:07] <annevk> JakeA: e.g. "installing" "active"
  793. # [16:07] <JakeA> annevk: hmm, so messages get lost if the sw changes state during a conversation?
  794. # [16:08] <annevk> JakeA: that depends on the conventions of your messaging strategy
  795. # [16:08] <annevk> JakeA: the argument is simply a string
  796. # [16:08] <annevk> JakeA: it's up to developers to decide what granularity they need
  797. # [16:11] <annevk> Thinking about it some more it's not entirely clear how waking up the service worker would work in a clean way with this proposal
  798. # [16:13] <annevk> JakeA: so yeah, maybe I'm coming around to the weird design
  799. # [16:14] <annevk> navigator.serviceWorker.onmessage / navigator.serviceWorker[x].postMessage() vs self.onmessage / self.clients.getClients().then((c) => c[0].postMessage())
  800. # [16:14] <JakeA> annevk: you'd still need a way to stash/register the channel, and it'd need to be per serviceworker rather than per registration, so different to where push registrations are stored
  801. # [16:16] <JakeA> where event.source is the sending client/serviceworker?
  802. # [16:16] <annevk> It's not exactly pretty, and I've no idea what the underlying primitives are, but it could be written out in a way that would work
  803. # [16:16] <annevk> JakeA: a static copy of it I guess?
  804. # [16:17] <annevk> JakeA: would not ===
  805. # [16:18] <annevk> JakeA: will try to think about it some more :/
  806. # [16:18] <JakeA> annevk: !== is already true of clients and SerivceWorker instances. Clients are already static. ServiceWorker instances are live as they have .status and a statuschange event
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  809. # [16:20] <JakeA> "!== is already true" urm, by that I mean they're not equal, even if they represent the same SW/client
  810. # [16:27] <annevk> JakeA: hmm, it seems weird if serviceworker instances are live that !== would be true
  811. # [16:27] <annevk> JakeA: is the spec broadcasting these statuschange events to all copies or some such?
  812. # [16:28] <JakeA> annevk: yeah
  813. # [16:29] <annevk> it's not exactly live if there's a bunch of copies
  814. # [16:29] <annevk> live is what the DOM is like
  815. # [16:29] <JakeA> annevk: === means making expandos work across window objects :(
  816. # [16:29] <annevk> e.g. <a> being only a single instance ever
  817. # [16:29] <annevk> JakeA: uhm you'd create one per window obv
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  819. # [16:30] <annevk> JakeA: otherwise prototype would already be weird
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  821. # [16:31] <JakeA> annevk: actually, === is probably useful in this case. if (messageEvent.source === navigator.serviceWorker.controller)
  822. # [16:31] <annevk> uhuh, also in the other case though
  823. # [16:32] <annevk> you kind of want live Client / SW objects
  824. # [16:35] <JakeA> Yeah, there is a lack of consistency there. Live client objects sounds really tough
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  826. # [16:37] <JakeA> back later, going to try and get some of this talk done…
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  843. # [17:16] <hswolff> gsnedders i will treasure the time we had together
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  868. # [18:24] <hsivonen> ISO-2022-JP, the Russian edition: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1130533 (KOI8-R)
  869. # [18:24] <hsivonen> annevk: ^
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  871. # [18:25] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I presume the DECODER_INITIATED_* was the best you could do, and actually having what encoding a given page is would be too expensive and too much data?
  872. # [18:26] <hsivonen> I need to learn to WONTFIX stuff like that with less debate
  873. # [18:26] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I figured that counting pages is less interesting, because people might be loading the same thing over and over
  874. # [18:26] <hsivonen> gsnedders: if something isn't used in a session at all, it's a good indication that it doesn't matter
  875. # [18:26] <hsivonen> for that user
  876. # [18:27] <hsivonen> gsnedders: but when something is used, the number of times it is used doesn't really tell you much beyond needing to keep the functionality
  877. # [18:28] <annevk> hsivonen: so we removed it from the menu based on statistics right?
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  879. # [18:28] <hsivonen> annevk: based on what the Thunderbird defaults were
  880. # [18:28] <hsivonen> annevk: i.e. no locale saw the need to default to KOI8-R for outgoing
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  882. # [18:29] <hsivonen> annevk: and ru-RU even defaulted to UTF-8
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  884. # [18:29] <annevk> hsivonen: k, it doesn't seem as bad an encoding as iso-2022-jp, but yeah, dunno
  885. # [18:29] <annevk> hsivonen: wait, Firefox Nightly does still have this encoding as a preference
  886. # [18:30] <hsivonen> well, I'm not a SeaMonkey dev. they can do whatever they like as long as it doesn't affect the UI in mozilla-central
  887. # [18:30] <hsivonen> annevk: for the Web, yes
  888. # [18:30] <hsivonen> annevk: but there's no UI for choosing KOI8-R for the Web
  889. # [18:30] <hsivonen> as a default that is
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  891. # [18:31] <hsivonen> annevk: sorry. let me try again
  892. # [18:31] <hsivonen> annevk: Firefox has this encoding in the menu. but not in the pref panel
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  894. # [18:31] <gsnedders> hsivonen: ok, just been playing around with faster decoding, and would be interesting to know how many things are decoded with each, but not all too important
  895. # [18:31] <hsivonen> "Cyrillic" in the prefs means windows-1251
  896. # [18:31] <gsnedders> hsivonen: just trying to use something as a somewhat arbitrary proxy :)
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  898. # [18:33] <hsivonen> note to self: learn to be less easily trolled into using time to debate people who claim recipients can't deal with UTF-8 yet
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  900. # [18:35] <hsivonen> btw, if one wants to combine the encoding topic and the EME topic (who doesn't?), just take a look at PlayReady PSSH boxes.
  901. # [18:35] <hsivonen> wasting bytes by making every second byte zero
  902. # [18:35] <hsivonen> because UTF-16
  903. # [18:35] <annevk> heh
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  905. # [18:35] <annevk> such great hobbies
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  908. # [18:37] <terinjokes> annevk: i've been thinking on this vacation, wouldn't it be great if maybe, just sometimes, we had other hobbies?
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  911. # [18:41] <annevk> terinjokes: I know one person that tried and didn't really succeed, although he did later quit his online persona
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  913. # [18:43] <terinjokes> annevk: I'd argue I haven't succeeded on this vacation either.
  914. # [18:43] <Ms2ger> Why do you have an internet connection on vacation?
  915. # [18:44] <jgraham> Ooh, is this like a "why did the chicken cross the road" joke?
  916. # [18:44] <jgraham> "To get to the other side"?
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  918. # [18:47] <terinjokes> Ms2ger: I have to book trains and hostels
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  1022. # [23:03] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
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  1040. # [23:51] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  1041. # [23:53] * Quits: Maurice` (copyman@unaffiliated/maurice)
  1042. # Session Close: Fri Feb 13 00:00:00 2015

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