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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  96. # [07:57] <annevk> "typical imprecise-DOM-spec-type" lol Domenic, if anything is actually undefined you'll file a bug right?
  97. # [07:59] <Domenic> annevk: yeah... I don't think implementers won't get it, but it's just hard for me to trace when the word "this" is never actually said and it's all so implicit...
  98. # [08:00] <annevk> Domenic: it's not implicit, but if you still think that DOM would handle JS minutia you haven't really been paying attention... that's IDL
  99. # [08:01] <Domenic> annevk: I think "the associated list of event listeners" is pretty implicit.
  100. # [08:01] <Domenic> associated to what?
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  102. # [08:03] <annevk> If used as mixin that might be unclear I guess
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  104. # [08:03] <annevk> File a bug? Is it used as mixin anywhere?
  105. # [08:03] <Domenic> Or when it's on the prototype chain, especially when window vs. window proxy is involved.
  106. # [08:03] <Domenic> nah as i said i'm sure implementers are fine with it
  107. # [08:03] <Domenic> just not the level i'm used to
  108. # [08:04] <annevk> I don't see how WindowProxy matters here. No events are ever dispatched at it.
  109. # [08:04] <Domenic> consider `window.addEventListener("foo", ...)
  110. # [08:04] <Domenic> That invokes the method with `this` set to the WindowProxy, not to the Window
  111. # [08:05] <Domenic> Does WindowProxy have an associated set of event listeners?
  112. # [08:05] <annevk> I don't think so, it's not an EventTarget object either
  113. # [08:06] <Domenic> Why isn't it? Is there any test you could run on it that would allow you to say that it is not?
  114. # [08:06] <annevk> There's an open bug on IDL to define "this" and pass it on more clearly
  115. # [08:07] <Domenic> And if it doesn't have an associated set of event listeners, then how does addEventListener get "the" associated set of event listeners to operate on?
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  118. # [08:07] <annevk> That might be a problem with the definition of Window/WindowProxy, sure
  119. # [08:08] <annevk> At this point DOM doesn't really have anything on those objects
  120. # [08:08] <Domenic> Well my point was more that if you said "the [[Events]] internal slot of `this`" then it would be much clearer what the answers to those questions are
  121. # [08:10] <annevk> Domenic: that is the defined behavior through "context object", for which I already mentioned that we asked IDL to make it explicit, at which point I'll probably start using it explicitly rather than omit it for brevity when it's clear from context
  122. # [08:11] <annevk> Domenic: I don't necessarily disagree with using slots instead, there's an open IDL bug on that too
  123. # [08:11] <annevk> Domenic: but that things are not defined in language you prefer doesn't make it imprecise, that would mean implementers could reach different conclusions from the same text at which point they'd file bugs etc.
  124. # [08:13] <Domenic> I think implementers could legitimately reach different conclusions about what "the associated set of event listeners" means in the context of window vs. window proxy
  125. # [08:13] <Domenic> And about the question of whether WindowProxy is an EventTarget object
  126. # [08:14] <Domenic> Anyway I didn't mean to pick a fight right before I had to sleep. More just was putting that there as a disclaimer that I might not be reading things right.
  127. # [08:14] <annevk> But why then claim that the DOM specification is unclear when it is in fact the specification for WindowProxy that is sorely lacking as we all already know?
  128. # [08:14] <Domenic> or at least, not reading things as they are intended
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  130. # [08:14] <Domenic> I think the DOM spec could be made clearer independent of window vs. window proxy. Proxies are pretty well-defined behavior.
  131. # [08:15] <Domenic> "the associated set" is not well-defined.
  132. # [08:15] <annevk> It's the context object's associated set
  133. # [08:15] <annevk> So if the context object is WindowProxy as you say, that would be it
  134. # [08:15] <Domenic> I mean the definition of context object isn't exactly that clear either
  135. # [08:15] <Domenic> "on which something is being called"
  136. # [08:16] <annevk> That is fair, and as I said I'm waiting for an IDL fix
  137. # [08:16] <annevk> Because only IDL can set that parameter correctly based on the JS -> IDL -> spec -> IDL -> JS bridge
  138. # [08:16] <Domenic> Anyway, I need to head to sleep, sorry for the offhanded comment :-S
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  141. # [08:26] <zcorpan> why is cssom access restricted to same-origin again?
  142. # [08:27] <annevk> zcorpan: euh, web security model?
  143. # [08:29] <zcorpan> annevk: you can get the computed style so the declarations leak anyway, and you can't get the original text since it's parsed and reserialized, so you can't read things that are not css
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  145. # [08:30] <annevk> zcorpan: declarations of styles not applied don't leak, declarations of styles not applied depending on cookies don't leak, etc.
  146. # [08:31] <zcorpan> annevk: so having a secret in a selector
  147. # [08:33] <annevk> zcorpan: are we requiring text/css as MIME type these days? If servers can be tricked into using that MIME type for resources there might be other risks too
  148. # [08:34] <zcorpan> annevk: yes, except in quirks mode but that's only for same-origin stylesheets
  149. # [08:35] <annevk> zcorpan: we should not reduce the amount of protection the same-origin policy gives, the amount that CSS, images, and script leak today is sufficient
  150. # [08:36] <annevk> (well, too much really)
  151. # [08:36] <zcorpan> annevk: sure, i agree
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  157. # [08:45] <zcorpan> i remember https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=524223 but it didn't use cssom
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  168. # [09:01] <annevk> zcorpan: that CSS loads across origins is a bug, restricting CSSOM is to some extent defense-in-depth and to some extent actually defends out-of-scope declaration blocks
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  175. # [09:13] <zcorpan> annevk: thanks. https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-houdini/2015Feb/0053.html
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  181. # [09:33] <annevk> zcorpan: don't we support CORS now for CSS loads?
  182. # [09:34] <zcorpan> annevk: the spec does, don't remember what is implemented
  183. # [09:34] <annevk> zcorpan: the other thing this is protecting of course is what CSSOM might become going forward; it would seem bad to forever constrain yourself by the current invariants
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  186. # [09:36] <zcorpan> yeah
  187. # [09:36] <annevk> zcorpan: also, getComputedStyle requires brute-forcing to find all selectors as there's no other way to read them
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  189. # [09:37] <annevk> zcorpan: coupled with varying media somehow, etc.
  190. # [09:37] <annevk> zcorpan: raw CSSOM exposes all trivially
  191. # [09:38] <zcorpan> yeah but it's still pretty trivial to do
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  193. # [09:38] <zcorpan> varying media is more annoying
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  196. # [09:54] <Krinkle> I'm not a 100% sure but I think I've seen some user extensions make use of CORS and CSS at Wikimedia.
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  198. # [09:54] <Krinkle> To be able to inspect the loaded rules from a no-cookies domain
  199. # [09:57] <annevk> zcorpan: it would take quite some time
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  201. # [10:01] <zcorpan> annevk: i'm writing a testsuite for the rendering section that basically does exactly this. i'm even checking :before and :after on each element. it's not taking that much time
  202. # [10:03] <annevk> zcorpan: euhm, you also need to generate all possible trees
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  204. # [10:07] <zcorpan> annevk: yeah that will take infinite time, but you probably can get far by enumerating the most commonly used elements, classes and ids
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  208. # [10:14] <oenftw> good morning, are there any benefits of using the HTML5 semantics?
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  258. # [12:59] <annevk> zcorpan: maybe, but you'll get more with CSSOM which seems bad
  259. # [12:59] <zcorpan> annevk: yes
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  309. # [16:14] <aleray__> hi, is it ok to use h1 inside <article> tags?
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  311. # [16:14] <annevk> aleray__: yes
  312. # [16:15] <aleray__> annevk,thanks
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  314. # [16:15] <aleray__> I had contradictory readings about that.
  315. # [16:15] <annevk> I think the model suggested by the specification does not have full support, which is why people might caution against it as a practical matter
  316. # [16:16] <aleray__> This text suggests the following for instance: http://html5doctor.com/the-article-element/
  317. # [16:16] <aleray__> in the "An <article> with comments as nested <article>s" section
  318. # [16:18] <annevk> aleray__: they don't recommend against it though, do they?
  319. # [16:18] <annevk> aleray__: they just have a header for the article rather than just a heading
  320. # [16:19] <annevk> aleray__: and actually, under "Using <article> for a widget" it seems to cover the case of using <h1> directly
  321. # [16:21] <aleray__> annevk, ok. Not sure to understand the subtlety. I will go through it again. In my case I have a div in which I list news. Each news is wrapped in an <article> and now has an h1 in it.
  322. # [16:21] <annevk> aleray__: sounds fine
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  324. # [16:23] <aleray__> annevk, nice. My outline is wrong but I might have unclosed tags somewhere. Let's fix the structure first
  325. # [16:24] <aleray__> btw, just fyi I have just published https://github.com/aleray/html5lib_typogrify
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  327. # [16:24] <aleray__> it is really minimal now, but if I have time I will expand it
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  349. # [17:22] <annevk> JakeA: what does GPU-rendered DOM element mean?
  350. # [17:22] <Ms2ger> Nothing
  351. # [17:23] <JakeA> annevk: do the rasterisation on the GPU, like we do with canvas right now
  352. # [17:23] <annevk> JakeA: I think the main slowness people have with DOM, across both React and the Google components crowd, is that if you have a large mutating tree, layout gets slow. Both then take the approach of putting all the data outside the DOM and then stamping out something smaller based on what is seen by the user through a template of sorts...
  353. # [17:24] <annevk> JakeA: so that instead of a 10000 item list, you only have a list with 50 items that are seen by the user, backed by a 10000 item JavaScript array
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  355. # [17:25] <annevk> JakeA: unless we can solve that scenario, the DOM seems rather doomed as information container
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  358. # [17:26] <JakeA> annevk: wouldn't some layout feature make that ok in the DOM? Some kind of list-view display? I guess you could do that yourself with hooks into layout
  359. # [17:26] <annevk> JakeA: so this GPU-rendering of DOM elements is GPU-rendering of CSS "boxes"?
  360. # [17:26] <Ms2ger> xul:listbox
  361. # [17:27] <annevk> JakeA: well, what Polymer has is <core-list>, which has this JavaScript-backed thing
  362. # [17:27] <JakeA> annevk: Yeah
  363. # [17:27] <annevk> JakeA: ok that makes more sense
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  365. # [17:28] <annevk> JakeA: a layout primitive goes some ways, though does not necessarily help with invalidation of trees due to mutation and selectors that then have to match again
  366. # [17:29] <annevk> JakeA: for that isolated styles could help
  367. # [17:29] <annevk> JakeA: wycats has some ideas around that, but nothing concrete
  368. # [17:30] <annevk> But it's a rather large gap to bridge and I can totally understand why we have these experiments going on to get it some other way
  369. # [17:32] <annevk> JakeA: anyway, this has annoyed me too, thanks for pushing people to dig a little deeper
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  371. # [17:39] <wycats> annevk: which ideas?
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  373. # [17:40] <wycats> JakeA: the biggest issue with list-view is the lack of scroll hooks
  374. # [17:40] <wycats> https://github.com/emberjs/list-view is used a lot in production Ember apps
  375. # [17:40] <smaug____> Ms2ger: I think you want xul:tree
  376. # [17:40] <JakeA> wycats: Chrome has been proposing a sync scroll handler (onbeforescroll) but I think it's getting push-back from other vendors
  377. # [17:41] <annevk> wycats: around isolation for CSS
  378. # [17:41] <wycats> JakeA: yeah
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  380. # [17:41] <wycats> JakeA: I think we should provide it and accept that it forces us to think hard about keeping frames small
  381. # [17:41] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, I guess we need style resolution hooks and/or isolation
  382. # [17:41] <wycats> JakeA: Shadow DOM helps a lot here
  383. # [17:41] <wycats> especially for list views
  384. # [17:42] <wycats> unrelatedly, I just posted: https://twitter.com/wycats/status/569893045321101312
  385. # [17:42] <JakeA> wycats: agreed. Maybe sync handlers are bad but all the touch-event-based scroll reimlementations are way worse
  386. # [17:42] <annevk> JakeA: there's interest from Mozilla in solving the problem, though roc seems to prefer adding a UI-centric worker
  387. # [17:42] <wycats> JakeA: 100%
  388. # [17:42] <annevk> JakeA: see dev.platform thread I pointed to on Twitter
  389. # [17:42] <wycats> annevk: I need to speak to roc
  390. # [17:42] <wycats> I don't agree with him on that thread
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  392. # [17:43] <wycats> (as a person who has implemented this stuff)
  393. # [17:43] <wycats> I don't mind creating a new UI daemon
  394. # [17:43] <wycats> but it's not tackling the problem head-on
  395. # [17:43] <JakeA> wycats: I think there are some oddities that make that not true. Maybe position:fixed inside that element? I can't remember. TabAtkins would know.
  396. # [17:43] <annevk> wycats: give it three-four hours and he might be online I guess, assuming he's at home
  397. # [17:43] <wycats> :)
  398. # [17:43] <wycats> the way to tackle the problem is to look at the 17ms timeslice, figure out where it's going, and figure out how to shrink it
  399. # [17:44] <wycats> and then figure out how to give developers APIs that don't blow the budget
  400. # [17:44] <wycats> people who are writing things like list-view are very very very good devs
  401. # [17:44] <wycats> they can color inside the lines if they had the tools
  402. # [17:45] <jgraham> annevk: You got time to look at https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/3216 ?
  403. # [17:46] <annevk> JakeA: btw, the DOM spec calls it the "node tree" if you want a different term
  404. # [17:46] <annevk> JakeA: https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#node-tree
  405. # [17:47] <annevk> JakeA: the JavaScript community sometimes uses "DOM" as a term for everything not JavaScript, which has been confusing me at times
  406. # [17:47] <JakeA> annevk: node tree is a good name for it
  407. # [17:47] <JakeA> nice
  408. # [17:51] <annevk> https://twitter.com/getify/status/569902233262796800 lol who exactly has been swapping terms :p
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  411. # [17:52] <Ms2ger> "DOM layout"?
  412. # [17:52] <Ms2ger> As opposed to what?
  413. # [17:53] <annevk> JakeA: if you haven't seen it, I recommend looking at https://speakerdeck.com/vjeux/react-css-in-js
  414. # [17:54] <annevk> JakeA: it's a really great introduction to everything that is wrong with CSS
  415. # [17:54] <boogyman> annevk: i would argue that understand the meaning of DOM is much more important than knowing the word-for-word translation of the acronym, which may be what you're all eluding to in the proposed "rename/remap".
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  418. # [17:55] <annevk> boogyman: what is the meaning?
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  420. # [17:57] <boogyman> In Kyle's tweets it appears he's pushing back against DOM meaning "Node Tree" or "Document Model Model" or whatever "DOM layout" means.
  421. # [17:58] <annevk> boogyman: yeah, as I said above that's fairly prevalent in certain circles, Kyle's claim it goes for all web developers I doubt, but it's common
  422. # [17:58] <jgraham> I've for-sure seen people say "DOM is slow" when they meant "some aspect of CSS/layout is slow"
  423. # [17:59] <jgraham> e.g. someone complaining that adding flexbox to 50 elements caused slowness that they could avoid by computing absolute positions for those elements
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  425. # [18:03] <boogyman> Understand the point, but "computing abs.pos." tells me they are only targeting small set of the world, which in itself is not ideal.
  426. # [18:04] <wycats> annevk: I think there are better solutions than vjeux's
  427. # [18:04] <wycats> Ember is investigating ;)
  428. # [18:04] <wycats> but his articulation of the problem is good
  429. # [18:05] <jgraham> Right, it might be that the new thing they did was a terrible mess. But they piggybacked on the "DOM is slow" meme to air a complaint about a facet of the platform that is entirely unrelated to the DOM.
  430. # [18:05] <wycats> jgraham: confirm
  431. # [18:05] <wycats> also, most of the platform is tractabl
  432. # [18:05] <jgraham> So even if we solve the problem, people will go "oh, there's still a DOM so it's still going to be too slow"
  433. # [18:05] <wycats> even within the context of the existing programming model
  434. # [18:06] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  435. # [18:06] <wycats> I am pretty tired of the revolutionaries
  436. # [18:06] <wycats> "let's replace CSS with a constraint solver"
  437. # [18:06] <wycats> "let's replace CSS with inline styles"
  438. # [18:06] <wycats> etc.
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  440. # [18:09] <wycats> I would be happy with identifying portable style boundaries and specifying them
  441. # [18:09] <wycats> and also identifying easy heuristics you can use to prune selectors you don't have to match for a given operation
  442. # [18:13] <gsnedders> CSPs are really easy to solve, though!
  443. # [18:13] <gsnedders> BUT WHAT CSP AM I REFERRING TO?! #OverloadedInitalismsAreFun
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  447. # [18:20] <Ms2ger> The common salesman problem?
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  450. # [18:24] <jsx> In @counter-style, <symbol> = <string> | <image> | <ident>
  451. # [18:24] <jsx> What would be an example for <ident>
  452. # [18:24] <Ms2ger> blah
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  463. # [18:49] <annevk> wycats: yeah, not sure about the solution space, but mostly the "this is a problem and why" is really good and interesting
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  465. # [18:50] <annevk> wycats: heh, there's a bit of XHTML 2.0 in everyone :p
  466. # [18:51] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: no, Communicating Sequential Processes, duh!
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  488. # [20:10] <wycats> lol
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  492. # [20:20] <jamesr___> wycats: you need position as well, i believe
  493. # [20:22] <jamesr___> wycats: or positioned descendants of the overflow:hidden things will influence the position of siblings
  494. # [20:23] <jamesr___> ah, i see this was already covered on twitter
  495. # [20:24] <gsnedders> jgraham: should we make the tree walker tests part of the parser tests? I mean they're guaranteed to fail if the identical parser test fails…
  496. # [20:24] <gsnedders> jgraham: so it seems kinda like they should be part of the same test
  497. # [20:30] <wycats> is position: relative sufficient?
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  502. # [20:54] <roc> wycats: speak to me
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  516. # [21:16] <wycats> roc: I am currently pair programming on Ember
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  518. # [21:17] <wycats> but I will ping you when I have uno momento
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  520. # [21:21] <TabAtkins> jsx: Hm, it's linking over to the wrong spec for <ident>, but that just means keywords.
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  531. # [21:30] <roc> annevk: that css-in-js deck is nowhere near "everything that's wrong with CSS" :-)
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  535. # [21:31] <roc> in fact, I quite like their approach of driving everything with JS and inline styles. I was just thinking recently that that seems like a good way to negate one of the performance issues of Web vs native --- selector matching and cascading
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  542. # [21:36] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I think there's some really interesting ideas we can dig out of there for applying styles more locally.
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  544. # [21:36] <TabAtkins> Rather than the big mishmash of global styles that CSS is today. ^_^
  545. # [21:37] <annevk> roc: haha, fair
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  547. # [21:38] <annevk> roc: yeah, the tight coupling is really interesting, also how useless specificity is
  548. # [21:38] <roc> the deck kinda oversells "CSS in JS" though
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  550. # [21:38] <annevk> Might be because React has that approach to all the things that are not JS
  551. # [21:38] <roc> they're not bypassing all of CSS, not by any means --- just part of the style system
  552. # [21:38] <TabAtkins> I'm almost certain that a mature version of that would reinvent some form of specificity, though. You could probably get away with just a single explicitly-supplied number, though.
  553. # [21:39] <TabAtkins> Without it, you have to rely on temporal ordering of application, which is trickier to manage as you get more complex.
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  555. # [21:40] <annevk> TabAtkins: yeah, I guess you want some of it, coupled with isolation it wouldn't be an issue
  556. # [21:40] <Domenic> roc: I think they are bypassing hte "cascading" and "sheets" parts of CSS :P
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  558. # [21:40] <roc> Domenic: yeah, well, it turns out that despite the naming, most of CSS is actually not about that :-)
  559. # [21:41] <TabAtkins> I want to spend some time later this year thinking about this some more, and seeing what I can come up with. More experiments in this area by the JS people will help.
  560. # [21:41] <roc> I don't think stylesheets are really helpful to people building these apps
  561. # [21:41] <annevk> TabAtkins: I expect that not solving this will halt work on shadow DOM and such as well
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  563. # [21:41] <TabAtkins> Agreed; they're actually an anti-feature when you're trying to get composability.
  564. # [21:41] <TabAtkins> annevk: yup.
  565. # [21:41] <annevk> TabAtkins: maybe less so for custom elements
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  567. # [21:42] <roc> when you're constructing lots of DOM nodes with JS, it makes sense to set style values explicitly from JS as well.
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  569. # [21:42] <annevk> TabAtkins: but I'd like to see us sort out what the way forward is for React / Ember style applications before committing to shadow DOM
  570. # [21:42] <annevk> Maybe Bert Bos was right after all that you don't want HTML/CSS/JS for applications
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  572. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> No, he was still wrong, because what you want is just JS. ^_^
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  575. # [21:44] <annevk> I may have remembered http://www.w3.org/People/Bos/webapps.html and http://www.w3.org/People/Bos/webapps-proposal.html for more than they are
  576. # [21:44] <annevk> TabAtkins: heh
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  578. # [21:46] <roc> I like having a proper mental image of Tab to associate with his messages
  579. # [21:46] <TabAtkins> roc: Same!
  580. # [21:46] <roc> still don't have Domenic :-(
  581. # [21:46] <TabAtkins> His Twitter image is accurate.
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  583. # [21:47] <roc> by "image", I don't mean an image :-)
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  585. # [21:52] <annevk> roc: do you have some data on how long the selector matching takes vs other parts of CSS?
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  587. # [21:54] <roc> I don't, but it's definitely enough that people (in Gecko and Blink at least) spend a ton of work optimizing it
  588. # [21:55] <roc> e.g. we did some work a while back to ensure that modifying inline style rules doesn't require rerunning selector matching. That helped some cases a lot.
  589. # [21:56] <wanderview> roc: is this the motivation for scoped styles as well? seems they have not worked out
  590. # [21:56] <wanderview> explicit inline styling being the extreme case of "scoped" styles
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  592. # [21:57] <roc> wanderview: no. Scoped styles are a modularity mechanism.
  593. # [21:58] <wanderview> ok
  594. # [21:58] <roc> and actually quite a helpful one, I think. It's just that Blink chose not to implement them
  595. # [21:58] <roc> same for CSS variables
  596. # [21:58] <wanderview> just seemed it would reduce the node tree that could be selector matched
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  598. # [21:59] <roc> yes, that it does, though I don't think we've fully optimized around that
  599. # [21:59] <annevk> does it? external selectors could still match
  600. # [22:00] <annevk> there's no isolation
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  602. # [22:00] <wanderview> annevk: I meant for styles modified in the "scoped" style tag
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  605. # [22:00] * wanderview only understands about 5% of this stuff...
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  611. # [22:04] <roc> annevk: changes to the DOM outside the scope can't change the results of selectors in the scoped styles
  612. # [22:04] <annevk> wanderview: hmm fair, I think the bottleneck is DOM mutations, but I don't actually know
  613. # [22:04] <annevk> roc: also fair
  614. # [22:05] <annevk> roc: I think Chrome killed variables because their code wasn't up to par, not because they don't want the feature
  615. # [22:06] <roc> that sounds harsh ... but yes
  616. # [22:06] <annevk> roc: <style scope> seemed more adversarial and had to do with shadow DOM, something we're not quite sure about
  617. # [22:06] <annevk> roc: heh, maybe I misremembered but I thought that's what they said on blink-dev
  618. # [22:07] <jamesr___> that seems accurate from what i remember
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  620. # [22:10] <wanderview> roc: I like your distinction about applying styles manually to elements... that's essentially what a programmatic native UI API would do... vs CSS declarative usage
  621. # [22:10] <roc> exactly
  622. # [22:11] <wanderview> and applying styles manually seems like a tooling issue
  623. # [22:11] <wanderview> or framework issue
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  626. # [22:13] <roc> having said that, some UI toolkits have adopted CSS as a declarative widget styling mechanism, so it's still helpful for some apps. And it's definitely helpful for more document-like pages.
  627. # [22:14] <roc> another major source of overhead is the content/presentation distinction, which forces browsers to create a parallel tree of CSS boxes, using a sometimes expensive algorithm
  628. # [22:14] <roc> that seems harder to get around...
  629. # [22:15] <dglazkov> the premise of Shadow DOM is that you can have use CSS as it was designed, but break it up into smaller, per-component chunks
  630. # [22:15] <roc> even when we create anonymous boxes, in Gecko we create anonymous elements to back them up, because it's far too much trouble to support naked CSS boxes
  631. # [22:15] <dglazkov> at least in my observation, this leads to much simpler selectors
  632. # [22:16] <dglazkov> applying all CSS inline should be a valid choice for frameworks
  633. # [22:16] <dglazkov> but we as a platform can do better
  634. # [22:16] <dglazkov> in terms of primitive ergonomics
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  639. # [22:18] <dglazkov> re: style scoped: https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/topic/blink-dev/JB8nFQXhAuQ/discussion
  640. # [22:20] <wycats> "but we as a platform can do better" big confirm
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  645. # [22:23] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  646. # [22:25] <dglazkov> having Shadow DOM is style boundary also a pretty useful thing (without shadow-piercing combinators)
  647. # [22:25] <dglazkov> you could actually start computing style in parallel, for example
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  649. # [22:27] <dglazkov> and of course, the shadow root being a natural style invalidation root is a good thing
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  651. # [22:33] <TabAtkins> roc: We're nearly done with our parser rewrite, and then Variables is getting put right back in.
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  653. # [22:37] <wycats> dglazkov: +1
  654. # [22:37] <wycats> TabAtkins: +1
  655. # [22:37] <wycats> TabAtkins: I think you really want the ability to give a component a stylesheet that gets its variables from custom properties
  656. # [22:38] <wycats> component.stylesheets.push(stylesheet)
  657. # [22:38] <TabAtkins> Yeah, variables inherit.
  658. # [22:38] <wycats> hm
  659. # [22:38] <wycats> say more
  660. # [22:38] <wycats> so the component itself would have some variables declared in the top-level sheet
  661. # [22:38] <TabAtkins> Custom properties inherit by default. So you can set them from outside the component, and use them inside the component.
  662. # [22:38] <wycats> sorry some custom properties
  663. # [22:38] <wycats> iiiiinteresting
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  665. # [22:38] <wycats> so stylesheets.push, if implemented, would "just work"
  666. # [22:39] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  667. # [22:39] <wycats> nice
  668. # [22:39] <wycats> please do implement
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  681. # [23:05] <dglazkov> wycats: I want that too. I started a discussion a while back, but sadly I got distracted: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0491.html
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  685. # [23:13] <dglazkov> And when I say "I", I mean "Tab".
  686. # [23:13] <dglazkov> :P
  687. # [23:14] <jgraham> Apropos nothing in particular, I was talking to someone that works on gaia today and it seems like they didn't think web components was going to provide the level of encapsulation they wanted for building FirefoxOS apps (aka web apps)
  688. # [23:15] * Quits: eric_carlson (~ericc@17.202.49.94) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  689. # [23:17] <dglazkov> jgraham: would love to know more details there
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  692. # [23:18] <dglazkov> it's a very generic statement :)
  693. # [23:20] <jgraham> dglazkov: Yeah, I don't want to give some false statement about what they wanted
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  695. # [23:20] <jgraham> So I guess I should try to get them to give feedback directly
  696. # [23:20] <dglazkov> jgraham: anyone I could talk to?
  697. # [23:20] <dglazkov> I don't bite
  698. # [23:20] <dglazkov> anymore
  699. # [23:21] <dglazkov> :)
  700. # [23:23] <jgraham> It wasn't exactly clear to me what they did want, but they were talking about a solution that had multiple documents which is apparently good if you want to destroy one piece and reclaim all the memory, and allows building a clear message-based API
  701. # [23:23] <jgraham> I'm not really sure if/how this solved problems relating to styling
  702. # [23:25] <jgraham> (to be fair their solution didn't sound very sane to me, so as you can tell I am not a great proxy here)
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  704. # [23:27] <dglazkov> :-\
  705. # [23:27] <dglazkov> maybe we could meet with them and try to have a brainstorm or something? Sounds like they're in a crazypants land
  706. # [23:28] <smaug____> well, separate docs especially from different domains give you rather good encapsulation ;)
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  710. # [23:34] <jgraham> dglazkov: I'll see if there's someone who can provide actual useful feedback
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  714. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> dglazkov: You're not at your desk, so... do we still have a flag for resetting inheritance on the shadow tree? Or do you need to use a dummy element with 'all'?
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  720. # [23:52] <Domenic> I was very disappointed in `all: unset`. It was too much. I think I want `all-but-display: unset`. I dunno, maybe it's workable in combination with a list of default-block elements.
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  722. # [23:54] <Domenic> I was very disappointed in `all: unset`. It was too much. I think I want `all-but-display: unset`. I dunno, maybe it's workable in combination with a list of default-block elements.
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