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- # Session Start: Sun Mar 01 00:00:00 2015
- # Session Ident: #whatwg
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- # [11:15] <Ms2ger> annevk, you don't happen to be around?
- # [11:15] <Ms2ger> Oh, nvm
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- # [11:24] <annevk> Ms2ger: waddup?
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- # [11:33] <Ms2ger> annevk, I thought a note in the encoding spec was wrong, but I misdiagnosed the error
- # [11:34] <annevk> ah
- # [11:34] <Ms2ger> Though I'm still not entirely sure it isn't wrong
- # [11:34] <Ms2ger> https://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-textencoder-encode
- # [11:34] <Ms2ger> Claims "These encodings cannot return error.", but I don't see why not
- # [11:35] <Ms2ger> Oh, USVString
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- # [18:13] <rektide> in BroadcastChannel, there's no means available for discoverability
- # [18:13] <rektide> as a service provider, i'd like to be able to advertise my channel to other channel-users
- # [18:14] <rektide> they have to know ahead of time all the channels they might ever want to use
- # [18:14] <rektide> and that seems markedly anti-web, anti loose coupling
- # [18:14] <rektide> i made a similar bid for freedom in BroadcastChannel's unicast brother, navigator.connect
- # [18:14] <rektide> https://github.com/mkruisselbrink/navigator-connect/issues/1
- # [18:15] <rektide> and got ignored there too as i always do by you very smart people
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- # [20:22] <Hixie> rektide: just define a channel to advertise on
- # [20:23] <Hixie> rektide: and then advertise on there
- # [20:23] <Hixie> rektide: (since broadcast channels are per-origin, though, you can just tell your fellow web masters about them)
- # [20:24] <rektide> defining a well known advertisement channel doesn't seem different from making people join your well known actual channel.
- # [20:24] <rektide> you end up needing intermediating hubs where people can agree to advertise to one another
- # [20:24] <rektide> i'd much prefer a web that is able to form itself
- # [20:24] <rektide> #webwewant2015
- # [20:25] * rektide chagrins himself
- # [20:27] <rektide> Hixie: Marijn comes up with the same argument against discoverability in https://github.com/mkruisselbrink/navigator-connect/issues/1#issuecomment-62989902 and has a prototype example in his navigator.connect world
- # [20:30] <rektide> i don't see why my user agent would not permit pages that wish to register the services they have to present that to the browser
- # [20:30] <Hixie> i'm not arguing against discoverability
- # [20:30] <Hixie> i'm arguing that it's already possible
- # [20:31] <Hixie> in any case, it's not like you can easily use randomly discovered channels, i mean, they're each going to have their own semantics and protocols
- # [20:31] <rektide> that is so irrelevant
- # [20:31] <Hixie> seems most relevant to me :-)
- # [20:32] <rektide> send messages to the channel. if it replies in a way you can accept, you can de facto converse
- # [20:32] <rektide> there's no need to assume anything at all beyond that ever
- # [20:32] <rektide> you are for your local pair sure of completeness
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- # [20:33] <rektide> any discussion on the need for content-negotiation is a forced one. please don't distract by insisting there's relevance to content negotiation
- # [20:36] <rektide> there's a basic capability: can a page tell the user agent that it wishes to be able to be found
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- # [20:36] <rektide> defining an answer such that "sure, you can find the page if you know that there's this one url that you can hit"
- # [20:36] <rektide> my answer is that no, the User-agent is not really bestowing the capability in earnest to the page
- # [20:37] <rektide> we're getting awesome listenability mechanisms from navigator.connect and broadcast channel but neither of them are things where the user-agent is doing the job it needs to do to help things that want to be discoverable and which want to converse
- # [20:38] <rektide> to be talk-to-able
- # [20:45] <Hixie> i've no idea what "can a page tell the user agent that it wishes to be able to be found" means but it doesn't sound like broadcast channels attempt to go near that problem?
- # [20:46] <Hixie> i guess i don't understand your high level problem
- # [20:46] <Hixie> are you asking about the equivalent of android intents?
- # [20:47] <rektide> the most appropriate thing i could cite would be the Network Discovery spec
- # [20:48] <rektide> i would like for BroadcastChannel to be something that the owner can set a flag on- myBroadcastChannel.makeDiscoverable()
- # [20:48] <rektide> and from another origin or page i can do a BroadcastChannel.findAllDiscoverable() or some such
- # [20:49] <Hixie> let's go higher-level. what's the user-facing problem you're trying to solve?
- # [20:49] <rektide> it may perhaps be useful if one were trying to implement something like Android Intents
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- # [20:50] <rektide> if i'm twitter, i'd like for every page on the system to be able to know the feed of the user
- # [20:50] <rektide> if i'm stock ticker website, i'd like for every page on the system to be able to see live stock ticks
- # [20:51] <rektide> if i'm a weather site, i'd like for every page on the system to be able to see the weather reports the user looks for
- # [20:51] <rektide> as those sides, i want to broadcast a stream of json-ld data
- # [20:51] <rektide> *sites
- # [20:51] <Hixie> oh, well
- # [20:51] <Hixie> you can do that already
- # [20:52] <rektide> if they know i'm there broadcasting
- # [20:52] <rektide> hence: discoverability
- # [20:52] <rektide> othrewise you fail the basic condition
- # [20:53] <rektide> i want every page to be able to see
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- # [20:53] <Hixie> so you're saying the user-facing problem is you want the user to open two tabs, that don't know about each other, and for the data from one tab to go to the other tab?
- # [20:53] <rektide> unless your ego is so large you assume everyone already knows you are there
- # [20:53] <rektide> yes
- # [20:53] <Hixie> why the heck wouldn't the user just go to the twitter tab to see the twitter feed??
- # [20:53] <rektide> (please please please don't me eat this ack)
- # [20:53] <rektide> i dunno, that's not my use case?
- # [20:54] <rektide> why would they have to?
- # [20:54] <Hixie> i don't understand your use case at all
- # [20:54] <rektide> why is the twitter background page color blue?
- # [20:54] <Hixie> if i want to view my twitter feed, i don't open g+ and hope that g+ notices i have twitter open to display my twitter feed there.
- # [20:54] <Hixie> especially since twitter is going to be able to do a much better job of rendering it
- # [20:54] <rektide> in livejournal, when you are authoring a post, there is a "now listening" button that could detect the music from a few known sources
- # [20:55] <Hixie> ah now that's a more concrete use case
- # [20:55] <rektide> i just want to make my own personal audioscrobbling server- which i wrote then literally lost the source to-
- # [20:55] <rektide> well i've given you something consumer-side this time
- # [20:55] <Hixie> yes, that's what i meant by "user-facing"
- # [20:56] <rektide> google now would be an example of a user-facing consumer of feeds
- # [20:56] <Hixie> ok so today the only way to do that that i can imagine is that you have an intermediary site that is a well-known place for producers and consumers to go to
- # [20:56] <rektide> yes me too and marijn too
- # [20:56] <Hixie> they each open an iframe to that site, that iframe opens a shared worker, and everyone talks back and forth over that channel
- # [20:57] <Hixie> if you want that to happen but with the browser being the intermediary rather than some random well-known third-party site, then you probably want anne's hypothetical web intents stuff
- # [20:57] <Hixie> i recommend sending anne feedback on that
- # [20:57] <Hixie> giving that use case, in particular
- # [20:58] <rektide> i am loath to let such a specific user-facingness use-case copt the more general idea of discoverability
- # [20:59] <rektide> but that doesn't roll back-
- # [20:59] <Hixie> if you want something more general, describe more use cases so that it's obvious why you need something general
- # [20:59] <rektide> Hixie: thank you for discussing with me this
- # [20:59] <rektide> Google Now is a beautiful omnibus consumer of all the datas
- # [21:00] <rektide> pointing to it and saying "web" is really kind of all the stand i feel like i should have to make
- # [21:00] <rektide> omnivore post-application user-augmentation ware
- # [21:01] <rektide> but it'll be fun rattling my brain to dredge up some existing application's that peer to other local wares
- # [21:03] <rektide> once more chagrined, i just want to say thanks again for taking the time and inquiry to get us togther to the destination i saw
- # [21:04] <Hixie> the way to get things on the web is to describe the end-user use case. which in any case is what should matter, right, i mean who cares HOW something ends up being possible as long as it's possible
- # [21:05] <rektide> it's something not modelled much in the world about, but inside of me i know that the agencies i wish to seed are ones which exchange with others and which can be heard from. and i believe we've come to a concensus on what the state of affairs is for that possibility.
- # [21:06] <rektide> dbus is the most successful example by far, and it's success is meager. there are some very cool adoptions- MPRIS media playing remote interface specification- is really powerful and really well used
- # [21:06] <rektide> but overall adoption is in a directly bad state, even where this capability of being talk-to-able exists, is very low
- # [21:08] <Hixie> in my experience, trying to provide hooks for hypothetical general solutions works far less well than trying to solve actual concrete problems that have immediate needs.
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- # [21:09] <rektide> but then you are married to your limited concrete set of the problem
- # [21:09] <rektide> that's a negligent and dangerous path
- # [21:10] <rektide> it also means you have to lead with problems, rather than hunting opportunity
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- # [21:10] <rektide> talk about a convergent path to local maxima
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- # [21:11] <rektide> but as far as getting others onboard, i certainly see what you are saying being the patterened way to get stuff done
- # [21:12] <Hixie> i agree that in theory it sounds like you'd get better results long term if you provided general solutions to hypothetical general problem spaces instead of generalised solutions to targetted problems
- # [21:12] <Hixie> but in practice it never works
- # [21:12] <Hixie> the specific has a way to focus the solution to one that actually works
- # [21:12] <Hixie> whereas general solutions tend to become quagmired in theoretical problems
- # [21:12] <rektide> well thankfully i'm not providing a general solution, i'm just trying to solve a specific problem- i want people to know the software i write exists
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- # [21:13] <Hixie> google already solves the problem of "i want people to know the software i write exsits"
- # [21:13] <rektide> well said
- # [21:13] <Hixie> so clearly that's not exactly the problem you're trying to solve :-)
- # [21:13] <rektide> ahhhh lol
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- # [21:14] <Hixie> the web, for example, was a concrete solution to a narrow problem: how to share data at CERN. yet it worked out that it was a great base for a more general problem. compare to the other solutions to the more general problem that have been proposed, but have gone precisely nowhere.
- # [21:15] <Hixie> (in fact that most people have never heard of)
- # [21:15] <rektide> i guess i have a hard time seeing what you would do to my solution statement-
- # [21:15] <Hixie> SGML vs XML is another example. SGML tries to solve more problems than SGML.
- # [21:15] <Hixie> than XML, i mean
- # [21:15] <Hixie> yet XML is way more successful
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- # [21:15] <rektide> myBroadcastChannel.makeDiscoverable() / BroacastChannel.findAllDiscoverable()- is that in the bad/general side to you?
- # [21:16] <rektide> that fails for not having a well targetted problem, for being general to you?
- # [21:17] <rektide> i feel like assuming more factors, having a more built out problem set-up- like yes perhaps the web intents works- would just be a receipe for making more ancillary downstream problems by baking in yet more assumptions
- # [21:18] <rektide> http://www.w3.org/TR/discovery-api/ is an example of what i feel is a near ideal extensible api, which makes few assumptions. acctually, i think it'd be a great consumer for a myBroadcastChannel.makeDiscoverable()!
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- # [21:18] <Hixie> broadcast channels are per-origin so they don't solve this at all
- # [21:19] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/TR/discovery-api/ makes no sense to me
- # [21:19] <Hixie> but ok
- # [21:19] <rektide> oh. heh, well.
- # [21:19] <Hixie> bbiab
- # [21:20] <rektide> i rescind any asks of #whatwg now seeing that broadcastchannel doesn't have cross origin capabilities.
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- # [21:42] <rektide> i did a pretty crude port of Marijn's discovery-via-intermediary to broadcast channel, but obviously it's frivolous work when there's no cross-origin scenario to do it across. https://gist.github.com/rektide/36c5ec5301fb17f37ea6
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- # [23:32] <zewt> ebay doesn't allow pasting in passwords; it's nonsensical that browsers even allow pages to affect that
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- # Session Close: Mon Mar 02 00:00:00 2015
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