/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-03-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Mar 01 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  133. # [10:45] * annevk_ is now known as annevk
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  137. # [11:15] <Ms2ger> annevk, you don't happen to be around?
  138. # [11:15] <Ms2ger> Oh, nvm
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  142. # [11:24] <annevk> Ms2ger: waddup?
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  146. # [11:33] <Ms2ger> annevk, I thought a note in the encoding spec was wrong, but I misdiagnosed the error
  147. # [11:34] <annevk> ah
  148. # [11:34] <Ms2ger> Though I'm still not entirely sure it isn't wrong
  149. # [11:34] <Ms2ger> https://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-textencoder-encode
  150. # [11:34] <Ms2ger> Claims "These encodings cannot return error.", but I don't see why not
  151. # [11:35] <Ms2ger> Oh, USVString
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  231. # [18:13] <rektide> in BroadcastChannel, there's no means available for discoverability
  232. # [18:13] <rektide> as a service provider, i'd like to be able to advertise my channel to other channel-users
  233. # [18:14] <rektide> they have to know ahead of time all the channels they might ever want to use
  234. # [18:14] <rektide> and that seems markedly anti-web, anti loose coupling
  235. # [18:14] <rektide> i made a similar bid for freedom in BroadcastChannel's unicast brother, navigator.connect
  236. # [18:14] <rektide> https://github.com/mkruisselbrink/navigator-connect/issues/1
  237. # [18:15] <rektide> and got ignored there too as i always do by you very smart people
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  247. # [20:22] <Hixie> rektide: just define a channel to advertise on
  248. # [20:23] <Hixie> rektide: and then advertise on there
  249. # [20:23] <Hixie> rektide: (since broadcast channels are per-origin, though, you can just tell your fellow web masters about them)
  250. # [20:24] <rektide> defining a well known advertisement channel doesn't seem different from making people join your well known actual channel.
  251. # [20:24] <rektide> you end up needing intermediating hubs where people can agree to advertise to one another
  252. # [20:24] <rektide> i'd much prefer a web that is able to form itself
  253. # [20:24] <rektide> #webwewant2015
  254. # [20:25] * rektide chagrins himself
  255. # [20:27] <rektide> Hixie: Marijn comes up with the same argument against discoverability in https://github.com/mkruisselbrink/navigator-connect/issues/1#issuecomment-62989902 and has a prototype example in his navigator.connect world
  256. # [20:30] <rektide> i don't see why my user agent would not permit pages that wish to register the services they have to present that to the browser
  257. # [20:30] <Hixie> i'm not arguing against discoverability
  258. # [20:30] <Hixie> i'm arguing that it's already possible
  259. # [20:31] <Hixie> in any case, it's not like you can easily use randomly discovered channels, i mean, they're each going to have their own semantics and protocols
  260. # [20:31] <rektide> that is so irrelevant
  261. # [20:31] <Hixie> seems most relevant to me :-)
  262. # [20:32] <rektide> send messages to the channel. if it replies in a way you can accept, you can de facto converse
  263. # [20:32] <rektide> there's no need to assume anything at all beyond that ever
  264. # [20:32] <rektide> you are for your local pair sure of completeness
  265. # [20:32] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
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  267. # [20:33] <rektide> any discussion on the need for content-negotiation is a forced one. please don't distract by insisting there's relevance to content negotiation
  268. # [20:36] <rektide> there's a basic capability: can a page tell the user agent that it wishes to be able to be found
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  270. # [20:36] <rektide> defining an answer such that "sure, you can find the page if you know that there's this one url that you can hit"
  271. # [20:36] <rektide> my answer is that no, the User-agent is not really bestowing the capability in earnest to the page
  272. # [20:37] <rektide> we're getting awesome listenability mechanisms from navigator.connect and broadcast channel but neither of them are things where the user-agent is doing the job it needs to do to help things that want to be discoverable and which want to converse
  273. # [20:38] <rektide> to be talk-to-able
  274. # [20:45] <Hixie> i've no idea what "can a page tell the user agent that it wishes to be able to be found" means but it doesn't sound like broadcast channels attempt to go near that problem?
  275. # [20:46] <Hixie> i guess i don't understand your high level problem
  276. # [20:46] <Hixie> are you asking about the equivalent of android intents?
  277. # [20:47] <rektide> the most appropriate thing i could cite would be the Network Discovery spec
  278. # [20:48] <rektide> i would like for BroadcastChannel to be something that the owner can set a flag on- myBroadcastChannel.makeDiscoverable()
  279. # [20:48] <rektide> and from another origin or page i can do a BroadcastChannel.findAllDiscoverable() or some such
  280. # [20:49] <Hixie> let's go higher-level. what's the user-facing problem you're trying to solve?
  281. # [20:49] <rektide> it may perhaps be useful if one were trying to implement something like Android Intents
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  283. # [20:50] <rektide> if i'm twitter, i'd like for every page on the system to be able to know the feed of the user
  284. # [20:50] <rektide> if i'm stock ticker website, i'd like for every page on the system to be able to see live stock ticks
  285. # [20:51] <rektide> if i'm a weather site, i'd like for every page on the system to be able to see the weather reports the user looks for
  286. # [20:51] <rektide> as those sides, i want to broadcast a stream of json-ld data
  287. # [20:51] <rektide> *sites
  288. # [20:51] <Hixie> oh, well
  289. # [20:51] <Hixie> you can do that already
  290. # [20:52] <rektide> if they know i'm there broadcasting
  291. # [20:52] <rektide> hence: discoverability
  292. # [20:52] <rektide> othrewise you fail the basic condition
  293. # [20:53] <rektide> i want every page to be able to see
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  295. # [20:53] <Hixie> so you're saying the user-facing problem is you want the user to open two tabs, that don't know about each other, and for the data from one tab to go to the other tab?
  296. # [20:53] <rektide> unless your ego is so large you assume everyone already knows you are there
  297. # [20:53] <rektide> yes
  298. # [20:53] <Hixie> why the heck wouldn't the user just go to the twitter tab to see the twitter feed??
  299. # [20:53] <rektide> (please please please don't me eat this ack)
  300. # [20:53] <rektide> i dunno, that's not my use case?
  301. # [20:54] <rektide> why would they have to?
  302. # [20:54] <Hixie> i don't understand your use case at all
  303. # [20:54] <rektide> why is the twitter background page color blue?
  304. # [20:54] <Hixie> if i want to view my twitter feed, i don't open g+ and hope that g+ notices i have twitter open to display my twitter feed there.
  305. # [20:54] <Hixie> especially since twitter is going to be able to do a much better job of rendering it
  306. # [20:54] <rektide> in livejournal, when you are authoring a post, there is a "now listening" button that could detect the music from a few known sources
  307. # [20:55] <Hixie> ah now that's a more concrete use case
  308. # [20:55] <rektide> i just want to make my own personal audioscrobbling server- which i wrote then literally lost the source to-
  309. # [20:55] <rektide> well i've given you something consumer-side this time
  310. # [20:55] <Hixie> yes, that's what i meant by "user-facing"
  311. # [20:56] <rektide> google now would be an example of a user-facing consumer of feeds
  312. # [20:56] <Hixie> ok so today the only way to do that that i can imagine is that you have an intermediary site that is a well-known place for producers and consumers to go to
  313. # [20:56] <rektide> yes me too and marijn too
  314. # [20:56] <Hixie> they each open an iframe to that site, that iframe opens a shared worker, and everyone talks back and forth over that channel
  315. # [20:57] <Hixie> if you want that to happen but with the browser being the intermediary rather than some random well-known third-party site, then you probably want anne's hypothetical web intents stuff
  316. # [20:57] <Hixie> i recommend sending anne feedback on that
  317. # [20:57] <Hixie> giving that use case, in particular
  318. # [20:58] <rektide> i am loath to let such a specific user-facingness use-case copt the more general idea of discoverability
  319. # [20:59] <rektide> but that doesn't roll back-
  320. # [20:59] <Hixie> if you want something more general, describe more use cases so that it's obvious why you need something general
  321. # [20:59] <rektide> Hixie: thank you for discussing with me this
  322. # [20:59] <rektide> Google Now is a beautiful omnibus consumer of all the datas
  323. # [21:00] <rektide> pointing to it and saying "web" is really kind of all the stand i feel like i should have to make
  324. # [21:00] <rektide> omnivore post-application user-augmentation ware
  325. # [21:01] <rektide> but it'll be fun rattling my brain to dredge up some existing application's that peer to other local wares
  326. # [21:03] <rektide> once more chagrined, i just want to say thanks again for taking the time and inquiry to get us togther to the destination i saw
  327. # [21:04] <Hixie> the way to get things on the web is to describe the end-user use case. which in any case is what should matter, right, i mean who cares HOW something ends up being possible as long as it's possible
  328. # [21:05] <rektide> it's something not modelled much in the world about, but inside of me i know that the agencies i wish to seed are ones which exchange with others and which can be heard from. and i believe we've come to a concensus on what the state of affairs is for that possibility.
  329. # [21:06] <rektide> dbus is the most successful example by far, and it's success is meager. there are some very cool adoptions- MPRIS media playing remote interface specification- is really powerful and really well used
  330. # [21:06] <rektide> but overall adoption is in a directly bad state, even where this capability of being talk-to-able exists, is very low
  331. # [21:08] <Hixie> in my experience, trying to provide hooks for hypothetical general solutions works far less well than trying to solve actual concrete problems that have immediate needs.
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  333. # [21:09] <rektide> but then you are married to your limited concrete set of the problem
  334. # [21:09] <rektide> that's a negligent and dangerous path
  335. # [21:10] <rektide> it also means you have to lead with problems, rather than hunting opportunity
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  337. # [21:10] <rektide> talk about a convergent path to local maxima
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  339. # [21:11] <rektide> but as far as getting others onboard, i certainly see what you are saying being the patterened way to get stuff done
  340. # [21:12] <Hixie> i agree that in theory it sounds like you'd get better results long term if you provided general solutions to hypothetical general problem spaces instead of generalised solutions to targetted problems
  341. # [21:12] <Hixie> but in practice it never works
  342. # [21:12] <Hixie> the specific has a way to focus the solution to one that actually works
  343. # [21:12] <Hixie> whereas general solutions tend to become quagmired in theoretical problems
  344. # [21:12] <rektide> well thankfully i'm not providing a general solution, i'm just trying to solve a specific problem- i want people to know the software i write exists
  345. # [21:13] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  346. # [21:13] <Hixie> google already solves the problem of "i want people to know the software i write exsits"
  347. # [21:13] <rektide> well said
  348. # [21:13] <Hixie> so clearly that's not exactly the problem you're trying to solve :-)
  349. # [21:13] <rektide> ahhhh lol
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  351. # [21:14] <Hixie> the web, for example, was a concrete solution to a narrow problem: how to share data at CERN. yet it worked out that it was a great base for a more general problem. compare to the other solutions to the more general problem that have been proposed, but have gone precisely nowhere.
  352. # [21:15] <Hixie> (in fact that most people have never heard of)
  353. # [21:15] <rektide> i guess i have a hard time seeing what you would do to my solution statement-
  354. # [21:15] <Hixie> SGML vs XML is another example. SGML tries to solve more problems than SGML.
  355. # [21:15] <Hixie> than XML, i mean
  356. # [21:15] <Hixie> yet XML is way more successful
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  358. # [21:15] <rektide> myBroadcastChannel.makeDiscoverable() / BroacastChannel.findAllDiscoverable()- is that in the bad/general side to you?
  359. # [21:16] <rektide> that fails for not having a well targetted problem, for being general to you?
  360. # [21:17] <rektide> i feel like assuming more factors, having a more built out problem set-up- like yes perhaps the web intents works- would just be a receipe for making more ancillary downstream problems by baking in yet more assumptions
  361. # [21:18] <rektide> http://www.w3.org/TR/discovery-api/ is an example of what i feel is a near ideal extensible api, which makes few assumptions. acctually, i think it'd be a great consumer for a myBroadcastChannel.makeDiscoverable()!
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  363. # [21:18] <Hixie> broadcast channels are per-origin so they don't solve this at all
  364. # [21:19] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/TR/discovery-api/ makes no sense to me
  365. # [21:19] <Hixie> but ok
  366. # [21:19] <rektide> oh. heh, well.
  367. # [21:19] <Hixie> bbiab
  368. # [21:20] <rektide> i rescind any asks of #whatwg now seeing that broadcastchannel doesn't have cross origin capabilities.
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  379. # [21:42] <rektide> i did a pretty crude port of Marijn's discovery-via-intermediary to broadcast channel, but obviously it's frivolous work when there's no cross-origin scenario to do it across. https://gist.github.com/rektide/36c5ec5301fb17f37ea6
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  393. # [22:46] * Quits: jyasskin (~jyasskin@173-228-80-34.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com) (Quit: My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  394. # [22:46] * Quits: CvP (CvP@203.76.123.238) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  395. # [22:46] * Joins: CvP (CvP@203.76.123.238)
  396. # [22:58] * Quits: dfreedm (sid7859@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cswakborxkkprjbt) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  397. # [23:00] * Joins: dfreedm (sid7859@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bqbzlqjtfkxyioyu)
  398. # [23:08] * Joins: frivoal (~frivoal@zaq771968bc.zaq.ne.jp)
  399. # [23:10] * Quits: frivoal (~frivoal@zaq771968bc.zaq.ne.jp) (Client Quit)
  400. # [23:10] * Joins: KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  401. # [23:13] * Quits: jsx (uid48919@fsf/intern/jsx) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
  402. # [23:13] * Quits: KevinMarks (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  403. # [23:16] * Joins: watilde (~watilde@27.110.57.141)
  404. # [23:16] * Joins: dtribble (~dtribble@71.216.10.241)
  405. # [23:19] * Quits: KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  406. # [23:27] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  407. # [23:32] <zewt> ebay doesn't allow pasting in passwords; it's nonsensical that browsers even allow pages to affect that
  408. # [23:32] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@unaffiliated/maurice)
  409. # [23:32] * Joins: KevinMarks (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  410. # [23:34] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  411. # [23:35] * Quits: ambv (~ambv@199.201.64.2) (Quit: sys.exit(0) # computer went to sleep)
  412. # [23:50] * Quits: benjamingr (uid23465@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lttvitnrcsylnchz) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
  413. # Session Close: Mon Mar 02 00:00:00 2015

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