/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-04-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 15 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  78. # [03:23] <MikeSmith> https://twitter.com/awesomekling/status/588102855019495424
  79. # [03:23] <MikeSmith> "DOM attributes on the prototype chain? WebKit did that over a year ago, jeez. We just had to keep some as own properties due to compat."
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  81. # [03:24] <MikeSmith> last time I ran some web-platform-tests interface/WebIDL tests, I didn't seem to find that to be true for the interfaces I was looking at
  82. # [03:24] <MikeSmith> WebKit still seemed to be failing on a lot of those interface tests
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  91. # [03:33] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: "some" is technically compatible with "most". It just means "not all". ^_^
  92. # [03:33] <MikeSmith> heh
  93. # [03:35] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: sometimes I think you would make a good lawyer 😀
  94. # [03:35] <MikeSmith> or at least you could play one on TV
  95. # [03:37] <TabAtkins> Technically correct is the best kind of correct.
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  97. # [03:39] <MikeSmith> sitcom pilot: "Texan Web developer relocates to wild-and-crazy San Franciso in the 2010s, moonlights as lawyer, fun ensues"
  98. # [03:40] <TabAtkins> I'd watch it.
  99. # [03:40] <TabAtkins> And star in it.
  100. # [03:40] <TabAtkins> Wait no, I need someone else to be me.
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  102. # [03:42] <MikeSmith> yes!
  103. # [03:42] <MikeSmith> now we got to think about who
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  105. # [03:42] <TabAtkins> Elijah Wood.
  106. # [03:42] <MikeSmith> I could play you, then you could play me in my sitcom
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  108. # [03:42] <MikeSmith> heh
  109. # [03:43] <MikeSmith> yeah, the *young* Elijah Wood
  110. # [03:43] * TabAtkins is still hung up on when cute senior girls told freshman-Tab that he looked like a young Elijah Wood.
  111. # [03:43] <MikeSmith> he's be the 12-year-old version of you
  112. # [03:43] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  113. # [03:43] <TabAtkins> That's actually just right for my age at the time.
  114. # [03:44] <MikeSmith> like Doogie Howser, except a webdeveloper/lawyer instead of a doctor
  115. # [03:45] <MikeSmith> I want Werner Herzog to play me
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  117. # [03:47] <MikeSmith> and in my sitcom I hang out with Werner Herzog but he's played by Zach Galifianakis
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  120. # [03:47] <TabAtkins> I like this plan.
  121. # [03:48] <TabAtkins> I'll take Zach as my little brother in my sitcom, too.
  122. # [03:48] <MikeSmith> that would be great
  123. # [03:48] <MikeSmith> we could have some tie-ins where we meet
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  129. # [03:52] <MikeSmith> anyway, it's nice to have another career to fall back on
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  131. # [03:53] * GPHemsley wants second chair
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  138. # [04:09] <MikeSmith> anyway results of tests like http://w3c-test.org/webstorage/idlharness.html and http://w3c-test.org/geolocation-API/interfaces.html seem to indicate WebKit has a lot of properties they need to move still
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  140. # [04:14] <MikeSmith> makes me wonder what properties they did actually move
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  146. # [04:36] <MikeSmith> speaking of wonders, they never cease: IETF has moved to using Bootstrap for their site http://tracker.tools.ietf.org/release/about
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  163. # [05:17] <MikeSmith> does anybody remember what's holding us up from adding "Copy to clipboard" support to the platform?
  164. # [05:18] <MikeSmith> I mean to enable the kind of thing in the github UI where it has that "Copy to clipboard" button
  165. # [05:18] <MikeSmith> e.g., on a repo home page like https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests
  166. # [05:18] <MikeSmith> the "clone URL" field
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  182. # [06:53] <caitp-> does the File api suggest upper bounds on the byte size of a file, to be able to read it?
  183. # [06:53] <caitp-> chrome silently failing to read a1 gig file as text was hard to track down today :l
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  205. # [07:49] <JakeA> MikeSmith: I think we just added it to Canary
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  209. # [08:07] <MikeSmith> JakeA: ah cool
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  217. # [08:33] <JakeA> MikeSmith: I believe it's document.execCommand('copy') from an interaction event
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  224. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> JakeA: thanks, this is in the Clipboard Ops spec?
  225. # [08:47] * MikeSmith looks
  226. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> oh that wouldn't be in the clipboard ops spec I guess
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  232. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> so, still wondering what spec they're implementing from
  233. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> I guess https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/editing/raw-file/tip/editing.html but not sure
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  237. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> botie, inform darobin what's the current spec for document.execCommand('copy') etc
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  240. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> botie, inform darobin what's the current spec for document.execCommand('copy') etc
  241. # [08:57] <botie> will do
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  253. # [09:28] <zcorpan> can anyone come up with a test case to check https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=28433 ?
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  274. # [10:03] <botie> darobin, at 2015-04-15 06:54 UTC, MikeSmith said: what's the current spec for document.execCommand('copy') etc
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  277. # [10:08] <darobin> MikeSmith: last I checked you still needed a mix of https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/editing/raw-file/tip/editing.html and http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/clipops/clipops.html
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  279. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> darobin: ok
  280. # [10:10] <darobin> MikeSmith: there are proposals for intention events to handle that, but nothing actually real
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  282. # [10:10] * MikeSmith wonders who implemented this is blink
  283. # [10:11] <darobin> I don't know what the implementation status for clipops is in general
  284. # [10:11] <darobin> execCommand in Blink I would expect dates back to WebKit
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  286. # [10:11] <darobin> unless it's been redone somehow
  287. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> darobin: JakeA said they landed it only recently
  288. # [10:12] <darobin> oh?
  289. # [10:12] <darobin> hmmm, I guess that might make sense actually, people still overwhelmingly use Flash for copying
  290. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> Yeah
  291. # [10:12] <darobin> or maybe they landed support for it outside of contentEditable?
  292. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> dunno
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  301. # [10:39] <annevk> wanderview: thanks so much for all the triaging btw
  302. # [10:39] <annevk> wanderview: we really need a script to go from GitHub issue to file a bug on browsers to fix something
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  306. # [10:46] <jgraham> gsnedders: I don't know what you mean?
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  334. # [11:52] * JakeA stalls for time on the clipboard questions as there's an article coming shortly
  335. # [11:52] <annevk> MikeSmith: it should be part of the clipboard spec
  336. # [11:52] <JakeA> http://updates.html5rocks.com/2015/04/cut-and-copy-commands
  337. # [11:52] <JakeA> agreed
  338. # [11:54] <annevk> JakeA: we're tracking this in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1151429 btw
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  352. # [12:53] <MikeSmith> does iOS have anything like Chrome Native Messaging?
  353. # [12:53] <MikeSmith> https://developer.chrome.com/extensions/nativeMessaging
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  358. # [13:19] <gsnedders> jgraham: https://github.com/html5lib/html5lib-python/issues/182 — do we merge this in after we have xfails working and a seemingly clean tree or do we wait till everything's done?
  359. # [13:19] <gsnedders> jgraham: I would rather merge once the tree is green agai
  360. # [13:19] <gsnedders> *again
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  362. # [13:25] <jgraham> gsnedders: Do you mean "do we finish this before merging anything else"?
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  365. # [13:31] <gsnedders> jgraham: I'd rather that, as I've said before, but I felt like I lost that argument already. I mean do we finish the subtasks of that completely before merging it or do we just finish those needed to get the tree green?
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  369. # [13:34] <jgraham> gsnedders: Merge the smallest possible thing at a time seems sensible
  370. # [13:34] <gsnedders> jgraham: basically the first 90% of the work to get rid of xfails is now done
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  372. # [13:37] <annevk> JakeA: wanderview: in https://github.com/whatwg/fetch/issues/43#issuecomment-93176616 we also came up with the need for making a URL from a Response
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  414. # [15:25] <wanderview> annevk: what exactly does that mean? the Response.url? or a URL mapping to the underlying source of that Response (like the Cache API file on disk)?
  415. # [15:27] <annevk> wanderview: the latter
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  417. # [15:27] <annevk> wanderview: e.g. <img src=response:identifier> or some such
  418. # [15:28] <wanderview> annevk: does this effectively mean we need a cache:// scheme or something? or is it just a non-human-readable id?
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  421. # [15:28] <wanderview> annevk: the life cycle of the URL is a bit scary to me too... if they forget to call revokeObjectUrl()...
  422. # [15:29] <annevk> wanderview: non-human-readable
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  424. # [15:29] <annevk> wanderview: yeah, we'd need to make it a one-time thing
  425. # [15:29] <annevk> wanderview: that streams can only be read once helps here of course
  426. # [15:29] <wanderview> annevk: well, what if its never read from?
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  428. # [15:29] <wanderview> annevk: does reading from the URL drain the Response?
  429. # [15:29] <wanderview> or is the Response "drained" by creating a URL
  430. # [15:29] <annevk> wanderview: yeah
  431. # [15:30] <wanderview> I guess I'm asking if creating the URL is effetively a clone
  432. # [15:30] <wanderview> ok
  433. # [15:30] <wanderview> annevk: I think thats easier to implement, then
  434. # [15:30] <annevk> wanderview: I don't think the URL should clone
  435. # [15:30] <annevk> wanderview: if you want a clone, use .clone() first
  436. # [15:30] <annevk> wanderview: that's the motto
  437. # [15:30] <wanderview> we can do this all in the child process without any extra hooks into the back end
  438. # [15:30] <annevk> or party line
  439. # [15:31] <annevk> I more optimal API would be <img>.srcObject = Response, however, we don't have srcObject on all possible things we want to feed Responses to and for some cases such as CSS it's a bit unlikely
  440. # [15:31] <wanderview> annevk: why do this as a function wrapping Response? why not have a Response.drainToUrl() or something
  441. # [15:31] <wanderview> hmm
  442. # [15:32] <wanderview> annevk: I guess that half of it (setting it as a .src on arbitrary attributes) may be a lot harder... not sure what we support there
  443. # [15:32] <zewt> (does a "one-time url" make sense in general, given that urls today can normally be read multiple times?)
  444. # [15:32] <zewt> (assuming GET, which is all you have with a url in isolation)
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  448. # [15:34] <annevk> zewt: if you have a parser hook one-time URL makes some sense still I think
  449. # [15:34] <zewt> but typically that's logically referred to a resource, not an "open unseekable file handle to a resource" or something along those lines
  450. # [15:35] <zewt> i suspect it'll work most of the time anyway, just curious about the edge cases
  451. # [15:35] <wanderview> I could see people getting bitten by it
  452. # [15:35] <annevk> zewt: it doesn't seem different from blob to me, other than Response having headers that might be useful
  453. # [15:36] <wanderview> var url = response.drainToUrl(); headerImage.src = url; otherImage.src = url;
  454. # [15:36] <zewt> eg. browsers today could discard an image entirely if it's been offscreen for a while, and then redownload it later when needed
  455. # [15:36] <annevk> wanderview: the first wins
  456. # [15:36] <wanderview> annevk: blob object URLs are reusable, no?
  457. # [15:36] <wanderview> I don't think the consumer of a URL should have to know what created it
  458. # [15:37] <annevk> wanderview: depends on how you create them
  459. # [15:37] <zewt> i guess if the url logically caches the whole response it'd basically be like a blob
  460. # [15:38] <wanderview> annevk: so I can't write a generic function loadImageInMultiplePlaces(url) because someone might hand me some strange one-time-use URL? sounds like bad ergonomics to me
  461. # [15:38] <zewt> er, other than the one-time thing
  462. # [15:38] <wanderview> annevk: we have no way to inspect if a URL is drained, etc
  463. # [15:38] <zewt> wanderview: that was my objection to the old microsoft proposal for auto-revoking blobs, iirc
  464. # [15:38] <annevk> wanderview: yeah, server could do the same technically
  465. # [15:38] <wanderview> annevk: I think URL might need to imply .clone() for every time its read
  466. # [15:38] <zewt> or one of them
  467. # [15:39] <annevk> wanderview: I don't really see why
  468. # [15:39] <wanderview> if there is precedent, I guess I don't object... just reinforces my existing hatred of createObjectUrl/revokeObjectUrl
  469. # [15:39] <zewt> that sounds not great but probably not a dealbreaker
  470. # [15:39] <zewt> obviously needs to not repeat the revoke* mistake
  471. # [15:39] <annevk> wanderview: srcObject = Response would be better
  472. # [15:40] <annevk> no doubt about that
  473. # [15:40] <annevk> zewt: right
  474. # [15:40] <zewt> err
  475. # [15:40] <zewt> <wanderview> annevk: the life cycle of the URL is a bit scary to me too... if they forget to call revokeObjectUrl()...
  476. # [15:40] <zewt> ^ does this repeat the revoke* mistake? heh
  477. # [15:40] <annevk> zewt: there's no proposal for a method that works with Response yet
  478. # [15:40] <wanderview> zewt: my experience with working on memory problems in firefoxos gallery app and others... people forget to revokeObjectUrl() all the time
  479. # [15:40] <annevk> zewt: but it would definitely not have a revoke thing going on
  480. # [15:40] <wanderview> and it creates huge memory pressure when the url is representing an image
  481. # [15:41] <zewt> wanderview: yeah, that was a huge screwup with object urls, javascript != manual resource management
  482. # [15:41] <zewt> annevk: k
  483. # [15:41] <wanderview> zewt: yea... Response drains after first use... so that it better... unless we need to mash it into the manual revokeObjectUrl() scheme
  484. # [15:41] <zewt> wanderview: well, blobs are intended to be able to be written to disk even if there's an open url to them
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  487. # [15:42] <zewt> (still a leak if people don't revoke, of course, but a disk space leak instead of memory)
  488. # [15:42] <wanderview> I guess gecko only gives you a file backed blob if you explicitly write it to IDB or something, and then get it back out
  489. # [15:42] <zewt> that sounds like an implementation shortcoming rather than blob's
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  492. # [15:43] <zewt> only as far as the memory thing
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  494. # [15:43] <zewt> being completely async is one thing blob got right (well, except for the size and mime type, which it screwed up and made sync)
  495. # [15:43] <wanderview> zewt: you still have issues with "I spent all the time to read this huge thing from disk... do I waste time reading again later or waste memory holding it in memory" its a tradeoff thats hard to always get right at the browser
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  503. # [15:45] <zewt> wanderview: well the idea is that if the data is on disk in the first place, a blob is just a pointer to it and you'd never actually need to read the whole thing (which i know has plenty of other complexities, in particular if the data might change out from under you)
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  506. # [15:46] <zewt> excess flood of excess flood
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  509. # [15:46] <annevk> zewt: feedback on https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Storage is welcome too btw
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  513. # [15:47] <zewt> more unreadable promise ugliness :(
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  519. # [15:49] <zewt> headed to work, will take a look later
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  547. # [16:05] <MikeSmith> https://twitter.com/CraigMcPheat/status/588335648987308032
  548. # [16:05] <MikeSmith> sounds like a fun place to work
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  551. # [16:06] <MikeSmith> I wonder if people in his office are also blocked from just using the real Web from their own smartphones
  552. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> and what is a "virtualised Chrome"
  553. # [16:07] <JakeA> annevk: the only blocked response headers are the cookie ones right? Chrome isn't giving me things like the "date" header for a CORS response, sound like a bug?
  554. # [16:08] <jgraham> annevk: It's not clear to me why the default box is atomic
  555. # [16:08] <annevk> JakeA: no
  556. # [16:08] <annevk> JakeA: did you use access-control-expose-headers?
  557. # [16:08] <annevk> jgraham: what else would it be?
  558. # [16:08] <wanderview> MikeSmith: probably a virtual desktop thin client
  559. # [16:09] <JakeA> omg, sorry about that annevk. You're right of course
  560. # [16:09] <annevk> no worries
  561. # [16:09] <jgraham> annevk: Well that introduces the requirement that all of indexeddb, cookies, etc. are cleared together. I don't think any requirement like that exists at present
  562. # [16:10] <jgraham> It seems like each is a seperate atomic box (although the document should be clear that "cleared" means "cleared through UA", not "cleared through DOM APIs")
  563. # [16:12] <jgraham> "global quota" seems like it shouldn't be explained as "free space - constant" unless that's really the only allowed model
  564. # [16:13] <wanderview> jgraham: I think pretty much everyone we've talked to favors clearing everything or nothing (aka atomic) to avoid half-broken pages
  565. # [16:14] <wanderview> unless there is an explicit way to signal "this part can get cleared without the rest"
  566. # [16:14] <jgraham> wanderview: That isn't how UAs work today
  567. # [16:14] <wanderview> jgraham: browsers today don't work offline... we're trying to fix that?
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  569. # [16:16] <jgraham> My point is that a) people will regard this as a functional regression "what do you mean I can't delete a cookie from a site unless I clear all the other data?!", and is likely to interfere with troubleshooting instructions for some sites
  570. # [16:17] <wanderview> jgraham: who said you can't delete a cookie? its just saying the browser can't delete the cookie behind your back without reseting the storage for the whole origin
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  572. # [16:17] <jgraham> wanderview: Is it?
  573. # [16:18] <jgraham> In that case it needs to be phrased to be much clearer
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  575. # [16:18] <wanderview> jgraham: yes... this is about what the browser can do when the system is under storage-pressure
  576. # [16:18] <wanderview> annevk: ^^^
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  578. # [16:19] <jgraham> wanderview: I assumed that "cleared" would include any browser-initiated clearing including via the UI
  579. # [16:19] <wanderview> I guess thats an interesting case
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  581. # [16:20] <wanderview> jgraham: I guess I would question if most users understand the difference between "cookies" and other data... for example, we are moving to block things like IDB in third-party iframes if the "disallow third-party cookies" pref is set
  582. # [16:20] <wanderview> we == gecko
  583. # [16:20] <jgraham> wanderview: Well I agree that some users don't. But I can still clear a single cookie from the Fx UI
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  586. # [16:21] <wanderview> jgraham: I imagine things like that and devtools storage inspector (does it allow modifying? it could...) would still work
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  589. # [16:22] <jgraham> Yeah, so it should be clear that these "atomic" boxes are not really atomic in general, but only according to how they react to storage pressure
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  592. # [16:23] <wanderview> jgraham: the intention is that browsers know they can treat them as atomic... but things like devtools allow you to break the rules... just like changing CSS or js via devtools on a site is not "spec'd" or "normal"
  593. # [16:23] <Domenic> +1
  594. # [16:23] <Domenic> "atomic" is too strong of a guarantee
  595. # [16:24] <Domenic> call it something like "lives and dies together" :P
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  600. # [16:26] <jgraham> wanderview: They are also not "atomic" from the point of view of creation. You can add or remove data from an "atomic
  601. # [16:27] <jgraham> " box using APIs
  602. # [16:27] <wanderview> I'm not really interested bikeshedding the name
  603. # [16:27] <jgraham> It's really only under storage pressure that they act as atoms
  604. # [16:27] <jgraham> OK, but I
  605. # [16:27] <jgraham> 'm just explaining why the wiki wasn't clear to me
  606. # [16:28] <wanderview> jgraham: sure... and that is good feedback... I think annevk will see this and respond eventually
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  608. # [16:39] <Domenic> I think there are people in this channel very interested in bikeshedding the name :)
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  615. # [16:46] * annevk wonders if the bikeshedding has concluded
  616. # [16:47] <annevk> jgraham: if you have a better term I'd be happy to update the page, though you can too :-)
  617. # [16:47] * calvaris_ is now known as calvaris
  618. # [16:47] <jgraham> Well just trampling over someone else's proposal seems wrong :)
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  620. # [16:48] <jgraham> (I'm not sure I have a better term, but someone might. Or it might just need better explaination)
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  623. # [16:52] <annevk> "atomic under pressure" (could also be a new album title)
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  626. # [16:57] <annevk> It's somewhat surprising to me we still offer control over individual cookies
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  628. # [17:00] <annevk> If it was up to me we would have a panel called "Sites" that gives you an overview of sites (ordered by frecency, no typo) where you can get/set permissions and clear storage
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  630. # [17:03] <annevk> Domenic: are you taking time to review https://w3c.github.io/mediacapture-main/ at some point?
  631. # [17:03] <Domenic> annevk: it was on my to do list but keeps slipping downward
  632. # [17:04] <annevk> Domenic: they'll play process games on us if we don't do it by May 15
  633. # [17:04] <annevk> although they might anyway since I think most of this has shipped
  634. # [17:04] <Domenic> Hmm
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  681. # [18:35] <TabAtkins> Domenic: "life-bonded"
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  689. # [18:40] <TabAtkins> How do people query that webdevdata these days? Is it still "download the zip and run grep", or is there something else?
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  700. # [19:28] * annevk typically asks zcorpan
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  710. # [19:41] <TabAtkins> Well yeah, but that's not super-scalable. ^_^
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  759. # [21:14] <TabAtkins> annevk: Finishing up DOM right now. I'll have a PR for you this afternoon.
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  779. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> annevk: MouseEvent is no longer defined by UI Events, if I follow the reference in your bibliography. Where should I point this link?
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  781. # [21:36] <Ms2ger> Should be in UI Events
  782. # [21:37] <TabAtkins> The ED seems super stripped down: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/d4e/raw-file/tip/source_respec.htm
  783. # [21:37] <Ms2ger> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dom3events/raw-file/tip/html/DOM3-Events.html#interface-MouseEvent
  784. # [21:37] <TabAtkins> Ah, the biblio ref in DOM pointed to d4e.
  785. # [21:39] <TabAtkins> That url depresses me, though.
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  807. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> annevk: And DOM is done. Could use some review, but the changes are extensive enough that doing so will be difficult. I did my best to make sure things linked correctly, though.
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  811. # [22:41] <TabAtkins> In particular, everything that linked cross-document, I noted down as I discovered them. After conversion, I verified that they were all failing to link (so they weren't getting grabbed by a local link), and manually specified their target in the anchors block.
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  850. # Session Close: Thu Apr 16 00:00:00 2015

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