/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-06-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jun 12 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  26. # [01:25] <ek_> HI
  27. # [01:25] <ek_> In HTML5 specs it talks about event loop which is responsible for processing events from the task queues. I was wondering which thread can enqueue events? Lets say if there is a UI event will there be a separate thread that will enqueue event and that event will be processed by the event loop?
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  65. # [02:48] <JonathanNeal> What are the advantages or disadvantages to adding all of the ARIA roles on a page via JavaScript?
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  93. # [04:10] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: http://w3c.github.io/aria-in-html/#add-aria-inline-or-via-script
  94. # [04:15] <MikeSmith> hmm I guess it's not clear whether that guidance is about roles as well, not just states and properties
  95. # [04:16] <MikeSmith> though in practice I don't know how anybody would manage states and properties except via JavaScript
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  99. # [04:33] <Domenic> I have found that roles cannot be modified (or added or removed) after inserting the element into the document
  100. # [04:33] <Domenic> At least, that is what chrome://accessibility says
  101. # [04:35] <caitp> i don't think that's actually true in practice, I believe there is code in the wild that needs to modify roles sometimes
  102. # [04:35] <caitp> at least, ngAria tries to attach a role to an element that didn't previously have one
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  104. # [04:50] <MikeSmith> I reckon Steve Faulkner would know
  105. # [04:53] <MikeSmith> but rightly, his spec should be more precise here and also provide guidance on that question of whether roles should be changed or not (or can safely/reliably across UAs)
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  112. # [05:16] <Domenic> caitp: but does that code actually work?
  113. # [05:19] <caitp> I think so
  114. # [05:20] <caitp> marcy sutton is pretty good with that stuff, and in touch with the spec
  115. # [05:20] <caitp> tests pass on multiple browsers, a few sites are using it, so i'm "pretty sure" it works
  116. # [05:21] <caitp> although the tests might not be very meaningful
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  168. # [07:48] <annevk> Domenic: very cool
  169. # [07:48] <annevk> Domenic: re code coverage
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  188. # [08:52] <annevk> Sebmaster: goes more for you I guess ^^
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  196. # [09:17] <annevk> Hmm
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  217. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> botie, inform annevk wanted to ask you if any spec change was made related to https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2014Oct/0018.html or what the URL for the open issue for it (if any)
  218. # [10:08] <botie> will do
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  231. # [10:45] <SteveF> Domenic: you can add/change role values after doc has loaded. If you refresh the chrome://accessibility/ acc tree dump it will show the current role in DOM
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  241. # [10:50] <SteveF> MikeSmith: the advice you pointed to is about not adding ARIA attributes in the DOM that don't make sense when scripting is not supported, suggests all attributes that rely on scripting to make sense should be added via scripting (unless the app is only meant to be used with scripting enabled) For example landmark roles are fine as they convey doc structure , while <div role=spinbox> would...
  242. # [10:50] <SteveF> ...only make sense if the widget is scripted
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  253. # [10:58] <SteveF> If any advice in w3c.github.io/aria-in-html/ needs improvement please file an issue https://github.com/w3c/aria-in-html/issues
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  262. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> ok
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  282. # [11:36] <hsivonen> w3.org unreachable for everyone or just for me?
  283. # [11:39] <espadrine> for me too
  284. # [11:40] <beowulf> hsivonen: europe seems to be having some problems with it's internet, judging by twitter
  285. # [11:41] <espadrine> wow, I hit ctrl+U, and I'm seeing the bytes arrive packet by packet
  286. # [11:41] <espadrine> it's really slow
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  292. # [11:49] <hsivonen> espadrine, beowulf: thanks
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  297. # [11:55] <beowulf> hsivonen: https://twitter.com/JobSnijders/status/609289882184384512
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  303. # [12:06] <tantek> hsivonen w3.org unreliable from here too
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  309. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> tantek: from San Francisco?
  310. # [12:17] <darobin> beowulf: I don't think that's the problem, this is W3C-specific
  311. # [12:17] <darobin> I can only access any W3C service through my VPN
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  314. # [12:18] <JoWie> same for me
  315. # [12:18] <MikeSmith> have people who are having problems getting to w3c tried a traceroute
  316. # [12:19] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: traceroute?
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  318. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> JoWie: from US or EU?
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  321. # [12:23] <darobin> if you have it around, sudo mtr www.w3.org would be nice
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  323. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> yeah just tried mtr and concur with darobin advice
  324. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> I'm not having any problems getting a route for the UK at least
  325. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> hmm well I wasn't until just a moment ago
  326. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> but now I am
  327. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> I guess I just further jinxed it
  328. # [12:26] <darobin> lol
  329. # [12:26] <darobin> maybe this is the day the internet dies
  330. # [12:26] <JoWie> EU
  331. # [12:27] <tantek> MikeSmith: yes
  332. # [12:27] <darobin> bye sweet friends, we'll meet again when we rebuild civilisation!
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  334. # [12:27] <MikeSmith> I'm now getting as far as Level3 at Manchester
  335. # [12:28] <MikeSmith> civlization has ended at Manchester
  336. # [12:28] <MikeSmith> god help us all
  337. # [12:28] <JoWie> for me traceroute gives empty results on later hops
  338. # [12:28] <JoWie> last one i see is prolexic
  339. # [12:28] <MikeSmith> JoWie: interesting
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  341. # [12:29] <darobin> yeah prolexic is failing, users in Germany are also reporting Level3 or Telia as failing
  342. # [12:30] <JoWie> i've had many issues with level 3 in a multiplayer game many years ago
  343. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> heh
  344. # [12:30] <JoWie> for months on end
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  346. # [12:30] <JoWie> it was actually faster for me to proxy to a server i have in the US
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  348. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> oh I thought you were making a joke
  349. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> yeah Level3 has issues sometimes
  350. # [12:31] <JoWie> faster as in ping times
  351. # [12:31] <JoWie> heh
  352. # [12:31] <darobin> anyway, I think that means it's lunch time
  353. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> but since some giant % of net traffic goes through Level3 when they have problems everybody has problems
  354. # [12:32] * MikeSmith cracks open some lunch in support of darobin
  355. # [12:32] <darobin> heh
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  361. # [12:35] <MikeSmith> It was Level3 who also apparently gave the NSA access to Google and Yahoo internal network lines (as was reported a couple years back from the first set Snowden materials that published I think)
  362. # [12:35] <darobin> ok, I can confirm that beowulf was right, this is not the w3c-specific issue I thought it might be
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  364. # [12:37] <MikeSmith> ah ok
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  369. # [12:42] <MikeSmith> ok so it seems http://research.dyn.com/2014/09/why-the-internet-broke-today/ might be happening again
  370. # [12:42] <MikeSmith> BGP FTW
  371. # [12:43] <darobin> yup
  372. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> https://twitter.com/mitsuhiko/status/609307066159767552
  373. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> http://www.karotte.org/pics/bgp-stability.png
  374. # [12:53] <smaug____> philipj: do you you have usage data for svg's useCurrentView ?
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  380. # [13:19] <philipj> smaug____: I'm afraid not, is that something you'd like to change/remove?
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  385. # [13:33] <smaug____> philipj: heycam|away wants to remove it
  386. # [13:33] <smaug____> apparently removed from the latest svg spec already
  387. # [13:34] <philipj> smaug____: let me check, that must have happened very recently since I just synced this interface with the spec
  388. # [13:35] <smaug____> philipj: https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/commit/4c26fd36937a65192024208d85c144a21071b057
  389. # [13:35] <philipj> smaug____: thanks
  390. # [13:35] <smaug____> so yes, somewhat recent change ;)
  391. # [13:36] <philipj> smaug____: heh :)
  392. # [13:36] <philipj> smaug____: I'll add the use countesr
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  397. # [13:55] <heycam> philipj, smaug____, thanks
  398. # [13:55] <philipj> heycam, smaug____, use counters in Gecko would be sweet, nudge nudge
  399. # [13:56] <heycam> philipj: the patches are in the process of being reviewed :)
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  401. # [14:00] <smaug____> heycam: so should we wait for usage data before removing the property?
  402. # [14:00] * smaug____ thinks so
  403. # [14:00] <heycam> yeah sounds fine
  404. # [14:00] <heycam> I think I know what the answer will be, but no rush :)
  405. # [14:01] <smaug____> yeah, sorry about being so reluctant to make blind changes to web apis ;)
  406. # [14:01] <smaug____> or how to say
  407. # [14:02] <heycam> np
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  417. # [14:31] <botie> annevk, at 2015-06-12 08:09 UTC, MikeSmith said: wanted to ask you if any spec change was made related to https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2014Oct/0018.html or what the URL for the open issue for it (if any)
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  420. # [14:40] <annevk> MikeSmith: not sure honestly
  421. # [14:40] <annevk> MikeSmith: doesn't seem like that was ever reported as issue
  422. # [14:41] <MikeSmith> annevk: OK
  423. # [14:41] <MikeSmith> annevk: do you think it should be an issue or is it not really actually an issue?
  424. # [14:42] <MikeSmith> Santi at least didn't seem to think it was an issue that he as an implementor needed to actually care about
  425. # [14:42] <annevk> MikeSmith: it's not clear that test is actually testing it
  426. # [14:42] <MikeSmith> ok
  427. # [14:42] <MikeSmith> well as long at you're aware of it that's sufficient for me
  428. # [14:43] <MikeSmith> I just wasn't sure if anybody had bothered to give you a heads-up about it
  429. # [14:43] <annevk> MikeSmith: if you go to https://url.spec.whatwg.org/reference-implementation/liveview.html and enter http://test.com/[ you'll see the percent encoding being uppercase
  430. # [14:44] <annevk> MikeSmith: yeah, pretty sure that email is Sam not actually understanding what is going on
  431. # [14:44] <annevk> MikeSmith: basically, if you have percent encoding in the input, it's not normalized
  432. # [14:44] <annevk> MikeSmith: and I think Santiago might be normalizing, which is wrong per the specification
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  438. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah but Santi also explains why he's doing what he's doing (with the implication that he's not concerned about strict conformance of his implementation to the spec on this and doesn't think any of his users care either)
  439. # [15:07] <annevk> MikeSmith: yeah, it's just the reply that's wrong I guess
  440. # [15:07] <MikeSmith> yeah
  441. # [15:08] <MikeSmith> doesn't seem like something that anybody else sees as a real problem
  442. # [15:08] <annevk> MikeSmith: I somewhat agree with Santi that it would be nicer if everyone normalized and if I had defined URLs fifteen years ago (with the knowledge I have now) I would have, but...
  443. # [15:08] <MikeSmith> yup
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  445. # [15:09] <annevk> philipj: I'll try to fix that mutation macro stuff now
  446. # [15:09] <annevk> philipj: I think I'll also get rid of the macro name and how it currently works, since it's rather weird
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  448. # [15:10] <philipj> annevk: good timing, if you're really quick maybe the implementation can be updated before it lands
  449. # [15:10] <philipj> (not ships, that's not on the table yet)
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  451. # [15:10] <annevk> I think you'll need Symbol.unscopeables to prevent breakage, but who knows
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  456. # [15:17] <philipj> annevk: the IDL has [Unscopeable
  457. # [15:17] <philipj> I'm hoping that does the right thing
  458. # [15:17] <annevk> ah yes, if that's all defined already it should
  459. # [15:18] <philipj> should all new APIs ever now have [Unscopeable], or what's the deal?
  460. # [15:19] <annevk> mostly new stuff on nodes and arrays and such
  461. # [15:19] <philipj> heycam: will it be enough to measure just the attributes on SVGSVGElement, or is there some internal thing that's connected that should also be measured?
  462. # [15:19] <annevk> if it's likely that someone has a variable with that name
  463. # [15:19] <heycam> philipj: no just measuring accessing that property is fine
  464. # [15:20] <philipj> heycam: thanks, doing it now
  465. # [15:23] <philipj> heycam: which patches are in the process of being reviewed, those for the SVG changes or something for use counters?
  466. # [15:23] <heycam> philipj: use counters
  467. # [15:23] <philipj> awesome :)
  468. # [15:23] <heycam> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=968923 if you're interested
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  470. # [15:25] <philipj> CC'd myself
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  482. # [15:51] <hsivonen> does anyone happen to have URLs to test cases that have huge attributes or text nodes?
  483. # [15:51] <hsivonen> (checking if I can be lazy and not write my own)
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  501. # [16:47] <annevk> whoa Wikipedia goes HTTPS
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  503. # [16:50] <Domenic> woah!
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  506. # [16:57] <tobie> it's to make sure no one can alter the content. oh wait.
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  509. # [16:58] <annevk> heh
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  514. # [17:04] <annevk> philipj: I proposed a fix for the remaining bug with before/after/replaceWith
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  517. # [17:09] <ek_> hello
  518. # [17:10] <annevk> ek_: hey
  519. # [17:10] <ek_> How are you? I had some questions to ask about HTML5 internals
  520. # [17:10] <annevk> ek_: good good, I saw, but you were not here!
  521. # [17:11] <ek_> I have some questions regarding task queue
  522. # [17:11] <annevk> ek_: basically, the UI events come from OS-level notifications, that the browser then queues up tasks for
  523. # [17:11] <annevk> ek_: it probably varies per OS if that's a distinct thread or not
  524. # [17:12] <ek_> How does the OS send notification to the browser? lets say its linux
  525. # [17:12] <annevk> ek_: "it's complicated" http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12717138/what-is-linux-s-native-gui-api
  526. # [17:15] <ek_> ok cool. Well actually what I was looking for not just for UI events. As there are multiple task queues in the browser. Is there any possibility that there are multiple threads that are inserting task into single queue(either it is UI, DOM or network queue)
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  528. # [17:17] <annevk> Maybe history could hit such a situation
  529. # [17:17] <Ms2ger> I don't know why not
  530. # [17:17] <annevk> But in general that's up to implementations
  531. # [17:18] <annevk> As long as A -> [black box] -> B, it doesn't really matter what [black box] is
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  533. # [17:20] <Domenic> tobie: rwaldron: I am going to unwatch sensors API for now because I am trying to cut down on my email flow a bit. But don't hesitate to tag me into interesting issues and questions.
  534. # [17:20] <MikeSmith> ek_: I'm curious why the answer to that question matters to you
  535. # [17:21] <ek_> So basically what I understood is when the specs tells us to do some operation asynchronously like fetch something from the web. It will be up to the implementor to do it using a different thread and then enqueue whatever task it is supposed to do or use some other mechanism to do it asynchronously.
  536. # [17:21] <Ms2ger> Yep
  537. # [17:21] <tobie> Domenic: noted. Thanks for all you did so far, it's been really helpful.
  538. # [17:24] <annevk> ek_: it doesn't necessarily have to be a distinct thread, but you have to be pretty clever to pull that of (Opera used to do that)
  539. # [17:24] <ek_> MikeSmith: I am trying to understand the queueing internals from browser perspective to get a better understanding of the event based model used and how browser is implemented
  540. # [17:24] <annevk> ek_: note that tasks are used to synchronize, they're not "in parallel" activity
  541. # [17:24] <MikeSmith> annevk: Opera did it on a single thread? if so I'd wonder why or what was too be gained from implementing it that way
  542. # [17:24] <MikeSmith> ek_: if so it would kinda seem like you'd want to be looking at some actual browser code for it
  543. # [17:24] <ek_> yeah tasks are executed in order as there is only one event loop that will be processing the events but usually there can be many threads that can insert task into the queue.
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  547. # [17:26] <annevk> MikeSmith: supporting devices without threads
  548. # [17:27] <MikeSmith> myself I don't understand how, practically speaking, it can be implemented without at least one other thread separate from the JS execution is running
  549. # [17:27] <MikeSmith> annevk: ah sure
  550. # [17:27] <annevk> MikeSmith: dare I say, Brew
  551. # [17:27] <MikeSmith> oh god
  552. # [17:27] <MikeSmith> yeah now I vaguely recall some of this
  553. # [17:28] <Ms2ger> Pausing js execution
  554. # [17:28] <MikeSmith> the "PC Site Viewer" version of Opera Mobile we did for KDDI/Au here in Japan
  555. # [17:28] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: right that's why I said practically speaking
  556. # [17:28] <MikeSmith> performantly speaking
  557. # [17:29] <Domenic> async I/O!
  558. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> not-totally-sucking-for-users-in-terms-of-performance-and-responsiveness speaking
  559. # [17:29] <Domenic> it's webscale
  560. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> heh
  561. # [17:30] <MikeSmith> I do know that the Brew "PC Site Viewer" version of Opera was actually usable, because I used it every day
  562. # [17:30] <MikeSmith> it wasn't a joy ride but it worked without being completely unusable at least
  563. # [17:31] <MikeSmith> I can imagine they had to use the same tricks for the Opera version that ran on the Nintento DS
  564. # [17:31] <MikeSmith> which had as much computing power as a sewing machine
  565. # [17:32] <MikeSmith> I doubt anybody else could have done it, or at least nobody would have tried
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  567. # [17:34] <ek_> Thanks for the help
  568. # [17:36] <JoWie> non blocking i/o is easy to use
  569. # [17:36] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, I think the better comparison is "as much computing power as the Apollo control system" :)
  570. # [17:36] <MikeSmith> heh
  571. # [17:36] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: you just have the JS engine yield control after some number of bytecode instructions have been executed, and use async IO and such like
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  575. # [17:37] <gsnedders> the DS version of Opera… Well…
  576. # [17:38] <gsnedders> I'm pretty certain the diff was pretty huge v. any other release
  577. # [17:42] <JoWie> you had to buy opera on the wii
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  580. # [17:50] <gsnedders> JoWie: the DS version was on a cartridge you had to buy!
  581. # [17:50] <gsnedders> and the DS has like no memory.
  582. # [17:51] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I think you're being quite harsh ot sewing machines
  583. # [17:51] <jgraham> Ht Wii version of Opera was free
  584. # [17:51] <jgraham> The CS version had to be bundled with extra memory on the cartridge
  585. # [17:52] <jgraham> *DS
  586. # [17:55] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  587. # [17:55] <JoWie> opera on wii became free later on
  588. # [17:55] <JoWie> with a refund
  589. # [17:55] <JoWie> it cost 500 "points" initially
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  592. # [18:04] <JoWie> is there an easy way to view old versions of a spec
  593. # [18:05] <Ms2ger> Which?
  594. # [18:05] <botie> Which is all true, but that still doesn't mean it's a good idea, but obviously not everyone at Mozilla is aligned on that
  595. # [18:05] <JoWie> dom
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  597. # [18:05] <Domenic> JoWie: the committed versions are all checked in so use rawgithub.com
  598. # [18:05] <Ms2ger> ^
  599. # [18:07] <gsnedders> jgraham: the memory cartridge was separate!
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  601. # [18:08] <gsnedders> jgraham: and also only for the DS, not the DSi (which has more memory and no GBA slot)
  602. # [18:08] <JoWie> cool site
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  604. # [18:08] <gsnedders> even with the DSi the binary is larger than the total RAM, IIRC
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  614. # [18:27] <jgraham> So WebDriver wants to define an operation that will take a JS object and convert it into a serialized form that has a trivial JSON representation. In particular this representation represents Elements as objects like {some_magic_property: element_uuid}. It should also handle arrays-of-things-that-can-contain-elements e.g. Array, NodeList, HTMLCollection, etc. Is there a generic way to refer to this class of collections (basically either collections t
  615. # [18:27] * jgraham isn't sure that made sense
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  617. # [18:29] <gsnedders> "basically either collections t"
  618. # [18:30] <gsnedders> having the rest of what you wrote would help
  619. # [18:30] <jgraham> hat may have arbitary members or collections that may contain elements), or do I need to go on a case-by-case?
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  796. # Session Close: Sat Jun 13 00:00:00 2015

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