/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-06-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jun 15 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  206. # [13:30] <annevk> philipj: Media Session has matured surprisingly fast
  207. # [13:30] <annevk> philipj: pretty good work from you guys
  208. # [13:32] <philipj> annevk: that's almost entirely thanks to richt, implementation-wise we're not very far along yet :)
  209. # [13:33] <annevk> I will say that he is amazingly bad at placing commas for a native speaker :p
  210. # [13:33] <richt> annevk: lol. but thanks.
  211. # [13:34] <richt> we still have lots of interesting issues to resolve of course. Implementation should flush those out.
  212. # [13:34] <annevk> philipj: so sicking's concerns seem mostly high-level
  213. # [13:34] <annevk> philipj: whether we can align desktop and mobile and not break stuff
  214. # [13:35] <annevk> philipj: that current implementations are rather sucky
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  219. # [13:46] <philipj> annevk: one issue that we're trying to get internal input in, do resolve our deadlock, is https://github.com/whatwg/mediasession/issues/50
  220. # [13:46] <philipj> s/internal/external/
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  225. # [14:01] <annevk> philipj: your position makes somewhat more sense to me
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  227. # [14:03] <annevk> philipj: although I don't really see how https://github.com/whatwg/mediasession/issues/50#issuecomment-111076225 cannot be achieved without activate()
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  229. # [14:03] <annevk> philipj: it seems to me you can always create a MediaSession as appropriate and assign it to some element
  230. # [14:05] <philipj> annevk: do you mean that the metadata could be used even before the session has become active for the first time?
  231. # [14:05] <annevk> philipj: well it could be set and ready way before you invoke play() and then once play() is invoked the UA updates all things
  232. # [14:06] <annevk> philipj: that is, you don't need activate to set metadata afaict
  233. # [14:07] <philipj> annevk: right, you don't, but our thinking has been that the session needs to become active (by explicit or implicit activation) before any UI is shown
  234. # [14:07] <annevk> ah right
  235. # [14:08] <davve> and remote control events hooked up in this case.
  236. # [14:08] <philipj> I mean that's not set in stone, but it's the model I think we've all had in mind so far
  237. # [14:09] <philipj> annevk: if after reading our walls of text you don't feel strongly then don't feel like you have to pick sides :)
  238. # [14:10] <annevk> https://extensiblewebmanifesto.org/ makes me think we should go with whatever iOS and Android do
  239. # [14:11] <annevk> it seems the issues richt is alluding to could be avoided by the UA first requiring the user to interact with an app before granting it "activate", based on some heuristics
  240. # [14:12] <annevk> I guess it might be worth asking the iOS/Android folks if they like the current setup
  241. # [14:12] <philipj> annevk: requiring a user interaction for activate() has crossed my mind
  242. # [14:13] <philipj> we haven't experimented, but I don't think iOS/Android has that kind of restriction
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  244. # [14:17] <davve> On iOS you may call AVAudioSession.sharedInstance().setActive(true) right when your app is shown to silence whatever was playing.
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  246. # [14:20] <philipj> requiring the tab to be visible would be a smaller restriction
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  260. # [14:49] <annevk> visible + focus
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  262. # [14:55] <JakeA> annevk: "The idea is to have some kind of new API that can be used to store a small amount of synchronization data (perhaps writeonly to avoid abuse)" - notifications have .data, is generalising this what you were thinking? As in, a (potentially) disk-based sorta-weakmap?
  263. # [14:56] <JakeA> Seeing people abuse the cache API for key/value storage because IDB's too hard makes me sad, but I totally get it
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  265. # [15:01] <annevk> JakeA: yeah, a simple setPersistentData() thingie and having fetch() accept it for network transfer
  266. # [15:01] <annevk> JakeA: just so you can store some state like progress in a game that isn't wiped when the user runs out of storage
  267. # [15:01] <annevk> JakeA: prolly capped at a MiB or less
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  285. # [15:59] <annevk> Location is so whacky :-(
  286. # [16:01] <JonathanNeal> Why has :any-link seen such poor browser adoption?
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  288. # [16:04] <darobin> I think people are just generally happy selecting for a, or failing that a[href]
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  290. # [16:04] <darobin> I mean :any-link is slightly neater, but it's not that huge of a difference
  291. # [16:05] <bid> hi, since XMLHttpRequest.async = false is deprecated, with what i can replace the behavior? i need to do a "blocking" operation can't change to none blocking... :\
  292. # [16:09] <annevk> JonathanNeal: Mozilla has supported a prefixed variant since forever
  293. # [16:09] <annevk> JonathanNeal: submit a patch to unprefix it if that hasn't happened yet?
  294. # [16:09] <JonathanNeal> darobin: do you know why :link was even a thing? Are there other visually similar elements that match :link?
  295. # [16:09] <annevk> bid: yes you can
  296. # [16:12] <bid> annevk: how?
  297. # [16:13] <annevk> depends on the situation
  298. # [16:14] <darobin> JonathanNeal: well, :link should really just be called :unvisited
  299. # [16:14] <darobin> beyond that, I think it was just premature generalisation
  300. # [16:16] <bid> annevk: i am loading a webpage using node.js and jsdom. some of the pages i am loading require me to emulate file system actions like "ls -al" so i fugure i will use Ajax, since i need the data "now" i can't do it in async way. and i can't change the way the pages works since the idea is to emulate the way they rans on production system. i hope it is clear :\
  301. # [16:18] <annevk> that you need the data synchronous is a bug in your software
  302. # [16:18] <JonathanNeal> Ah. Perhaps :any-link would have made more sense paired with an :unvisited pseudo-class cloning :link
  303. # [16:18] <Ms2ger> Also, what's with the respec plugging on my Anolis thread? BS is a much more sensible replacement
  304. # [16:19] <annevk> Who is doing that?
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  308. # [16:24] <darobin> Ms2ger: take it up with Marcos
  309. # [16:24] <darobin> you'll be wrong, but take it up with Marcos ;)
  310. # [16:24] <Ms2ger> I wa talking about you too :)
  311. # [16:24] <darobin> I didn't plug nothing man
  312. # [16:25] <darobin> I just let people pick their thing
  313. # [16:25] <darobin> if you like Python then Bikeshed is great, if you're more into Web technologies then ReSpec might come more naturally
  314. # [16:25] <darobin> just sayin'
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  316. # [16:26] <darobin> JonathanNeal: I'm not sure that there'd be value in having a :unvisited that's exactly the same as :link; it's not like it's the only misnomer in the platform
  317. # [16:26] <Ms2ger> Let's fix Referer
  318. # [16:26] <annevk> if you're into fouc, non-working fragment identifiers, and old-fashioned API markup I guess ReSpec is pretty awesome
  319. # [16:26] <JonathanNeal> Yea, this isn’t something commonly upsetting websites either. I only noticed it because it was so similar to a problem I was having with :focus and :hover.
  320. # [16:27] <darobin> annevk: I haven't seen a fouc in a long time, but maybe that's just me; frags have worked forever, newer-style WebIDL has landed...
  321. # [16:27] <annevk> I frequently have to hit enter again in the address bar to get where I want to be
  322. # [16:28] <darobin> never seen that problem
  323. # [16:28] <JonathanNeal> I was QA’ing a beautiful site that totally failed me with keyboard navigation. Most of my bugs boiled down to the solution: “add :focus support”.
  324. # [16:28] <darobin> I mean, not since it was fixed in 2010 or some such
  325. # [16:29] <darobin> bid: I really see no reason to do what you're doing, especially if you're loading with jsdom — you should have enough control to do whatever you want and not need anything sync
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  327. # [16:29] <annevk> I see fouc all the time
  328. # [16:29] <annevk> with ReSpec
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  330. # [16:29] <JonathanNeal> I see minute-ouc on mobile
  331. # [16:29] <annevk> can't reproduce the fragment issue at the moment
  332. # [16:30] <philipj> darobin: I've seen the fragment problem from time to time, doesn't seem to end up exactly at the right place
  333. # [16:30] <philipj> never filed a bug when it's happened, of course
  334. # [16:30] <philipj> an fouc is the norm for respec isn't it? when doesn't it happen?
  335. # [16:30] <darobin> philipj: the only cases in which I've seen the fragment problem today are not ReSpec-specific, it's people tacking their own script processing on at the end
  336. # [16:30] <Ms2ger> Perhaps in w3c offices :)
  337. # [16:31] <darobin> I don't get FOUCs, but maybe it's because it's always hot in cache
  338. # [16:31] * darobin doesn't work in a W3C office
  339. # [16:31] <bid> beside the qustion if it is good design. is there a way to query the server in a blocking way?
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  341. # [16:31] <JonathanNeal> I wrote about my issue with :hover here and proposed a new pseudo-class to target :focus and :hover jointly. http://discourse.specifiction.org/t/a-common-pseudo-class-for-hover-and-focus/877/3
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  343. # [16:33] <darobin> bid: well... you can navigate
  344. # [16:33] <bid> darobin: there is a reason, for a start the main thing is to auto QA the javascript. so i can't change the source files.
  345. # [16:33] <bid> what do you mean navigate?
  346. # [16:34] <darobin> like go to a completely different page; the server pushing HTML to you can block all it wants
  347. # [16:34] <JonathanNeal> annevk: ^ :enter addresses a far more prevelent issue on sites than :link/:visited - thoughts?
  348. # [16:34] <darobin> bid: none of that sounds like it needs sync
  349. # [16:35] <annevk> JonathanNeal: I remember proposing something like that ages ago, not sure why it didn't happen
  350. # [16:35] <annevk> JonathanNeal: www-style is still the best place for those discussions
  351. # [16:36] <JonathanNeal> annevk: Nice, I’d love to see those discussions. I wrote a polyfill, too https://github.com/jonathantneal/postcss-pseudo-class-enter I’ll try to get on that list and pitch this there as well.
  352. # [16:37] <bid> darobin: i am emulating javascript that runs inside exe file. since it is running on the server side and in "production" the javascript rans in the exe file and have access to different windows api... in the server side (node+jsdom) i need to emulate the windows api behavior... this is the use case...
  353. # [16:38] <JakeA> JonathanNeal: The problem I have is :focus plays badly with click handlers
  354. # [16:38] <JakeA> I end up calling blur() to un-stick the style
  355. # [16:38] <JakeA> or avoiding :focus altogether. Both options bad.
  356. # [16:39] <JakeA> I'd like a :tab-focus pseudo to differentiate between a general :focus and a keyboard focus
  357. # [16:40] <JonathanNeal> JakeA: I’ve seen something like with a list of hash links. Once one link is clicked, it holds focus, and once I hover over other elements, I get the illusion of two hovered elements.
  358. # [16:41] <JonathanNeal> Is that similar to what you’re describing?
  359. # [16:41] <JakeA> exactly
  360. # [16:41] <darobin> bid: sorry, your situation seems to be pretty unusual, I don't think I can help you
  361. # [16:41] <bid> yes it is... :) so what is the way to bypass and do sync operations?
  362. # [16:42] <bid> i tried using workers but in jsdom i have issues with it..
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  364. # [16:42] <bid> not sure why yet...
  365. # [16:42] <Sebmaster> bid: worker support isnt in jsdom
  366. # [16:43] <bid> Sebmaster: can you elaborate?
  367. # [16:44] <Sebmaster> bid: jsdom doesn't support Worker; it's kinda hard to do in node.js since you need to spawn a new process
  368. # [16:45] <bid> ok.. so what are the alternative?
  369. # [16:45] <Ms2ger> Process?
  370. # [16:46] <bid> ?
  371. # [16:48] <JonathanNeal> JakeA: it’s almost like we want elements to drop :focus on :activate.
  372. # [16:48] <JonathanNeal> Except we don’t want to lose our tab position.
  373. # [16:49] <JakeA> right, although I don't know if I want :focus gone after :activate if the focus was via keyboard
  374. # [16:52] <darobin> Sebmaster: what problem are you seeing with starting a new process? it's not hard. Is it for communication?
  375. # [16:53] <annevk> MikeSmith: was https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26338#c6 ever banned?
  376. # [16:53] <Sebmaster> darobin: we'd need to start a new process, and initialize jsdom in it (targeted specifically to a worker) and then run the code; postMessage()'ing is gonna be the next problem afterwards
  377. # [16:54] <darobin> Sebmaster: I'm not saying it doesn't require work :) But it doesn't seem problematic in itself
  378. # [16:54] <Sebmaster> darobin: yeah, but there's just so much more important stuff in jsdom than that to do
  379. # [16:57] <darobin> Sebmaster: sure, I was just reacting to the fact that you seems to be pointing at a serious issue; I completely understand that it takes time
  380. # [16:57] <darobin> (and isn't a priority)
  381. # [16:57] <Sebmaster> nah i was just trying to express that it's not going to happen anytime soon in jsdom
  382. # [16:57] <Sebmaster> (at least from an official side, PRs might change that easily)
  383. # [16:57] <JakeA> bid: Is this what you're looking for? https://github.com/driverdan/node-XMLHttpRequest
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  385. # [16:59] <Sebmaster> bid: jsdom should still support synchronous XHR anyways
  386. # [17:00] <Sebmaster> i dont think we'll forcibly remove it
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  390. # [17:28] <Domenic> annevk: does <sdfoasdfsf> close <p>s or is that just <div>?
  391. # [17:28] <annevk> Domenic: just <div>
  392. # [17:28] <Domenic> hmm I see
  393. # [17:29] <annevk> Domenic: currently custom elements parse like <sdfoasdfsf>
  394. # [17:31] <bid> Sebmaster: strange it is not. maybe it's becuase iam usign node and not io.js? its jsdom version 3.1.2
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  396. # [17:31] <Domenic> annevk: what about <asfdsf> and <span>?
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  398. # [17:32] <Sebmaster> bid: it may just be that we don't implement the async attribute
  399. # [17:32] <Sebmaster> but it should work in the constructor
  400. # [17:33] <bid> i just open it with ('get',sUrl, false) and than send(null)
  401. # [17:33] <Sebmaster> that should work
  402. # [17:33] <bid> it freezes
  403. # [17:33] <Sebmaster> well... yeah
  404. # [17:33] <Sebmaster> it's synchronous
  405. # [17:34] <bid> i mean it freez for good. as if the node just crashs,,,
  406. # [17:34] <bid> maybe i have js error that cause it to fail... its very hared to debug jsdom
  407. # [17:35] <Sebmaster> bid: might be a bug in node-xmlhttprequest
  408. # [17:35] <Sebmaster> since we basically just import that as-is
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  410. # [17:36] <bid> ok, thanks.
  411. # [17:37] <bid> i will play with it some more.
  412. # [17:37] <bid> will udpate
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  416. # [17:41] <JonathanNeal> annevk: thanks for your advice. I’ve sent my issue and pitch to www-style. I still have hope that Specifiction becomes a hub.
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  428. # [17:56] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah I banned that bugzilla account already
  429. # [17:56] <MikeSmith> a long time ago I think
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  439. # [18:10] <annevk> Domenic: I think <span> might be special
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  442. # [18:10] <annevk> Domenic: look at the parser categories
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  444. # [18:11] <annevk> Domenic: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/syntax.html#the-stack-of-open-elements
  445. # [18:12] * caitp|away is now known as caitp
  446. # [18:12] <annevk> Domenic: it seems <span> is only special inside foreign content, otherwise the same as <asfdsf>
  447. # [18:12] <annevk> Domenic: (only hit for "span" in that section)
  448. # [18:14] <annevk> MikeSmith: kk
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  492. # [20:02] <annevk> Sebmaster: did you run into any issues with the "@ flag" in the URL Standard?
  493. # [20:02] <annevk> Sebmaster: iirc Sam said there was a bug there, but it's not reported and I'm not quite sure what it is
  494. # [20:02] <Sebmaster> annevk: not that i know of... yet?
  495. # [20:03] <Sebmaster> i havent thought much about it, just implemented stupidly according to spec and tests work
  496. # [20:04] <Sebmaster> so it might be something untested... or not at all
  497. # [20:05] <annevk> Sebmaster: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20141119#l-235
  498. # [20:05] <annevk> I guess I should look into that tomorrow
  499. # [20:05] <annevk> I'm going through the open bugs once more
  500. # [20:06] <annevk> Another thing I plan on fixing is (new URL("test", "test://x/")).href === "test://x/test"
  501. # [20:06] <annevk> But that's a bit harder
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  503. # [20:08] <annevk> Sebmaster: I also wrote some extra tests today: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1902
  504. # [20:08] <annevk> (And new specification text. Apparently all URLs can handle relative fragments.)
  505. # [20:08] <Sebmaster> annevk: do you have some plan for fixing windows paths yet?
  506. # [20:09] <annevk> Sebmaster: not how, just that I want to
  507. # [20:09] <Sebmaster> lemme find my commit
  508. # [20:09] <Sebmaster> annevk: https://github.com/jsdom/whatwg-url/commit/5be541eee4a7fff33278d2cc2840ea283a7436b9 was my start
  509. # [20:09] <Sebmaster> but its incomplete
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  511. # [20:10] <Sebmaster> if i remember correctly you'd need to extend the conditions there
  512. # [20:10] <annevk> Yeah Domenic showed me that and I think pointed to some issues with it too
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  514. # [20:11] <annevk> Sebmaster: perhaps we should store Windows drive letters on the URL directly so they become more easy to work with...
  515. # [20:12] <annevk> Anyway, file URLs are last in the list of parser bugs I want to fix
  516. # [20:12] <annevk> But I'll get to them this summer
  517. # [20:14] <Sebmaster> looking forward to it
  518. # [20:14] <Sebmaster> i think it's something which fails a lot of tests in jsdom, but i havent examined if they're bugs somewhere else yet
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  520. # [20:17] <annevk> Sebmaster: you're of course encouraged to try sort out the spec for this yourself and make a PR ;-)
  521. # [20:18] <Sebmaster> yeah, ill see if i can fix my PR up to at least pass the tests, maybe it's useful to you then
  522. # [20:19] <Sebmaster> oh yeah, annevk i had two more untested things i think
  523. # [20:19] <Sebmaster> lemme check
  524. # [20:19] <Sebmaster> annevk: oh yeah, the encoding stuff you changed recently isnt tested by web-platform-tests yet
  525. # [20:20] <Sebmaster> i currently just added https://github.com/jsdom/whatwg-url/blob/master/test/additional-tests.txt to our internal tests
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  527. # [20:22] <annevk> Sebmaster: hmm yeah, I guess all the ASCII chars need testing
  528. # [20:23] <annevk> I guess I should write some exhuastive test for that too, but also not today
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