/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-08-11 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  51. # [03:06] <cvrebert> MikeSmith: Any update on the CSS Validator repo migration?
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  57. # [03:30] <tripu> ato?
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  60. # [03:38] <ato> tripu: Hi.
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  63. # [03:47] <MikeSmith> cvrebert: probably will get to it today
  64. # [03:48] <cvrebert> MikeSmith: \o/
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  109. # [07:11] <annevk> "You’ve been removed from the Web Platform Testing and Tools Pushers team on the World Wide Web Consortium organization." I wonder what I did
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  112. # [07:17] <MikeSmith> annevk: nothingーyou still have push perms
  113. # [07:17] <MikeSmith> that team was redundant
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  115. # [07:23] <Domenic> annevk: is there a way to invoke the basic URL parser without a base URL in browsers, except indirectly? I tried setting <base href="url-to-parse"> and then investing <a href="#">.href, but it parsed url-to-parse relative to the page's "real" URL.
  116. # [07:23] <Domenic> I know you can do it with new URL("url-to-parse") but I was wondering if there were another context I could try, especially one that isn't allowed to fail.
  117. # [07:24] <annevk> Domenic: set <base> to about:blank
  118. # [07:24] <annevk> Domenic: roughly equivalent
  119. # [07:24] <annevk> Domenic: not sure it works reliably in IE/Edge though
  120. # [07:24] <Domenic> doesn't seem to work in Chrome...
  121. # [07:25] <annevk> oh
  122. # [07:25] <annevk> Domenic: test:test seems to work in Chrome...
  123. # [07:26] <Domenic> oh nice!
  124. # [07:26] <Domenic> https://jsbin.com/someje/edit?html,console,output is fun
  125. # [07:27] <Domenic> "" in Chrome, "/\\example.jpg" in Firefox, "https://null.jsbin.com///example.jpg" in IE11
  126. # [07:29] <Domenic> It's as if all this code was written without a well-specified standard
  127. # [07:29] <Domenic> Or worse, off of RFCs
  128. # [07:29] <annevk> Firefox' output is correct, if you hit a fatal parse error you just return the input
  129. # [07:30] <annevk> (it's fatal since there's no base URL)
  130. # [07:31] <annevk> Domenic: how does it match Chrome?
  131. # [07:33] <Domenic> Chrome matches when parsed with base URL
  132. # [07:33] <Domenic> Firefox matches without one
  133. # [07:34] <annevk> Oh right, Firefox doesn't handle backslashes correctly yet
  134. # [07:34] <annevk> There's an open bug on that
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  136. # [07:36] <annevk> Domenic: for https://github.com/whatwg/loader/issues/62 I think ideally we end up with something similar to custom elements
  137. # [07:36] <annevk> Domenic: although I guess it's not quite lifecycle methods, but it's somewhat close
  138. # [07:37] <Domenic> Ah yeah interesting parallel
  139. # [07:37] <Domenic> That argues for symbols at least
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  150. # [08:46] <annevk> MikeSmith: https://blogs.oracle.com/maryanndavidson/entry/no_you_really_can_t seems like something you'd enjoy reading
  151. # [08:46] * MikeSmith looks
  152. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> annevk: needs more photos
  153. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> but "Bug bounties are the new boy band" is good
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  155. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> there should be a reverse bug-bounty thing, where if you try to get attention by claiming some product/spec has a security vulnerability and it turns out to not really be true, you have to give money to a community fund that then gets paid out to people who find real security vulnerabilities
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  158. # [08:58] <annevk> <<Otherwise everyone would hire a consultant to say (legal terms follow) “Nanny, nanny boo boo, big bad consultant can do X even if the customer can’t!”>>
  159. # [08:59] <annevk> The entire premise though of security by obscurity seems so wrong... I'm somewhat baffled this person is the CTO.
  160. # [09:04] <MikeSmith> annevk: actually, Chief Security Officer, right?
  161. # [09:06] <MikeSmith> and speaking of security by obscurity I notice that Oracle's state-of-the-art blogging tool identifies her as "User701213-Oracle" in the byline
  162. # [09:06] <MikeSmith> that inspires a lot of confidence
  163. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> especially since the gist of the piece is basically "Trust us, we know what we're doing."
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  178. # [10:16] <annevk> abc.wtf is kinda funny
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  184. # [10:34] <Ms2ger> So what's this Alphabet thing?
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  187. # [10:41] <annevk> Ms2ger: most plausible explanation I saw was that it's a trick to pay less tax, but I don't understand US tax law so I don't really know if that's the real reason
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  197. # [11:33] <JakeA> annevk: when a listener callback is executed (https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dispatching-events), is that calling a callback as per https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#clean-up-after-running-a-callback ?
  198. # [11:34] <annevk> JakeA: this is the dust thing I mentioned
  199. # [11:34] <JakeA> ahh ok
  200. # [11:34] <annevk> JakeA: see the bugs blocking https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17713
  201. # [11:34] <JakeA> Chrome's implementation performs a microtask checkpoint per listener, Firefox doesn't
  202. # [11:35] <annevk> JakeA: the idea though, is yes
  203. # [11:35] <annevk> JakeA: Firefox does too, just not for promises
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  206. # [11:36] <JakeA> Ahh I see. I'll test this with mutation observers
  207. # [11:37] <annevk> JakeA: are you using FirefoxNightly btw?
  208. # [11:37] <JakeA> annevk: no, will test that now
  209. # [11:40] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, still wrong in Nightly
  210. # [11:40] <annevk> Hmm, I cannot find the bug in Nightly
  211. # [11:41] <JakeA> annevk: http://jsbin.com/zetoya/edit?console,output
  212. # [11:41] <JakeA> click the blue square
  213. # [11:42] <annevk> I see
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  217. # [12:02] <Ms2ger> Was display: -webkit-flexbox a thing?
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  219. # [12:09] <annevk> Ms2ger: some search results suggest display: -webkit-flex is
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  233. # [13:21] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, https://blog.mozilla.org/community/2015/08/10/firefox-40-new-contributors/
  234. # [13:23] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: w00t
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  236. # [13:23] <MikeSmith> I wonder when do I start getting the royalty checks
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  239. # [13:29] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, can you add csswg-test to the testing teams on github?
  240. # [13:29] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: which teams exactly?
  241. # [13:29] <Ms2ger> Web Platform Testing / Web Platform Testing and Tools Owners
  242. # [13:31] <MikeSmith> ok
  243. # [13:31] <MikeSmith> done I think
  244. # [13:32] <Ms2ger> Yep, thanks
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  252. # [14:09] <annevk> JakeA: https://html5.org/temp/fetch-newcontext.html
  253. # [14:15] <JakeA> annevk: looks good. Why does imgset get an initiator?
  254. # [14:16] <JakeA> annevk: I can see why xslt-styles are their own thing, given the CSP rule, but why an initiator rather than type?
  255. # [14:17] <annevk> JakeA: you'd want type = "xslt"?
  256. # [14:17] <annevk> JakeA: I opted for initiator since I expected "xslt" to maybe be removed at some point and initiator is not exposed
  257. # [14:18] <annevk> JakeA: I guess it doesn't matter much either way...
  258. # [14:18] <JakeA> that's a good enough reason
  259. # [14:18] <annevk> JakeA: "imageset" is needed for Mixed Content
  260. # [14:18] <annevk> and again, since initiator is not exposed...
  261. # [14:18] <JakeA> ahh good point
  262. # [14:18] <JakeA> annevk: I take it audio/video/track have different enough requests to warrant their own type?
  263. # [14:19] <JakeA> rather than just media
  264. # [14:19] <annevk> JakeA: I would expect them to have their own Accept header
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  266. # [14:19] <annevk> JakeA: which is one of the things we use context for today
  267. # [14:19] <annevk> JakeA: we also use context to enforce X-Content-Type-Options: nosniff for which we'd also need these distinguished
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  269. # [14:21] <JakeA> annevk: would fetch's type become settable?
  270. # [14:22] <annevk> JakeA: I don't see how we could do that and use it as a security mechanism at the same time, unless we restrict how the response is used
  271. # [14:25] <JakeA> Yeah, that follows. I guess there could be Request.asType('image', url, opts), but it only affects headers, not underlying type (or sets some kind of "imitating type")
  272. # [14:26] <JakeA> annevk: this looks really good. Nice one.
  273. # [14:27] <annevk> JakeA: yeah, I think for igrigorik's use cases we'd include an additional axis of sorts
  274. # [14:27] <annevk> JakeA: "as type" or "pretend type" or some such, that's simply not used for security
  275. # [14:27] <JakeA> Makes sense
  276. # [14:28] <JakeA> For <link rel="prefetch"> etc, setting actual type should be fine, as only the correct type will get a cache match on that
  277. # [14:29] <JakeA> But fetch(request) should always be connect-src
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  280. # [14:42] <annevk> JakeA: does Chrome always use a browsing context for <object>?
  281. # [14:43] <annevk> JakeA: afaict Chrome does something different from Firefox
  282. # [14:44] <JakeA> annevk: I don't know off the top of my head, I'll find someone to bug about that when SF wakes up. I'm not sure how I'd test that
  283. # [14:44] <JakeA> annevk: When I click something on the page, how is the dispatch of the event queued? Is it a task?
  284. # [14:45] <JakeA> actually, thought of a way to test the object thing
  285. # [14:45] <annevk> JakeA: I've been playing with http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/ and <object data=document> vs <object data=image>
  286. # [14:45] <annevk> JakeA: for the latter contentDocument is null in Firefox, but in Chrome you still get a document
  287. # [14:46] <annevk> JakeA: In Firefox you only get a contentDocument if you do <a target=x href=image>...</a> against <object data=document name=x>
  288. # [14:47] <JakeA> annevk: http://jsbin.com/jeruku/edit?console,output - no contentDocument on this
  289. # [14:48] <JakeA> click events don't get trapped either
  290. # [14:49] * caitp|away is now known as caitp-
  291. # [14:49] <annevk> whoa how is that different
  292. # [14:50] <annevk> Does it depend on whether or not you document.write() the <object> in Chrome?
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  294. # [14:51] <JakeA> annevk: updated the bin. Looks the same
  295. # [14:53] <annevk> If I start typing in that bin it really shouldn't try to sync your stuff from upstream
  296. # [14:53] <annevk> That's super annoying
  297. # [14:53] <JakeA> heh, I've stopped typing
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  299. # [14:54] <annevk> JakeA: see http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/3589
  300. # [14:54] <annevk> JakeA: and the difference in Chrome and Firefox
  301. # [14:57] <JakeA> That is bizarre
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  303. # [14:57] <annevk> I know, I was thinking we could require Chrome's behavior and always have a browsing context, but you've shown that Chrome doesn't always do that
  304. # [14:58] <annevk> And now I'm confused
  305. # [14:58] <JakeA> annevk: typemustmatch would do the trick though, right?
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  307. # [14:59] <annevk> JakeA: provided we defined the behavior and removed those <object> elements from being able to be targeted with <a target>...
  308. # [15:00] <JakeA> annevk: can an object with typemustmatch and a non-document type still be navigated via <a target>?
  309. # [15:00] <annevk> JakeA: I'm not sure
  310. # [15:00] <JakeA> That might be ok, because we still know before the response if it'll be a document or not
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  312. # [15:03] <annevk> Yeah, although I wonder if <object> will show its fallback content in case of a network error and whether it'll have a browsing context in that case...
  313. # [15:04] <annevk> But I guess that's fine, it's equivalent to a hidden <iframe>, only the ones no longer part of the tree are bad
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  315. # [15:05] <JakeA> Hah, I don't think I understand the processing model of object fallbacks, they don't seem to appear in the DOM
  316. # [15:06] <annevk> That sounds like a bug
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  318. # [15:11] <JakeA> It's certainly not what I expected
  319. # [15:12] <gsnedders> they definitely should be in the DOM!
  320. # [15:14] <JakeA> Ah, I think they are, but devtool's representation is broken
  321. # [15:14] <JakeA> http://output.jsbin.com/ganehi/quiet
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  323. # [15:30] <JakeA> annevk: is it explained anywhere that jobs and microtasks share the same queue?
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  327. # [15:32] <annevk> JakeA: not yet
  328. # [15:33] <annevk> JakeA: see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25981
  329. # [15:33] <annevk> I wonder if we can work with bterlson on a better model
  330. # [15:34] <annevk> Since awbjs wasn't too helpful
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  332. # [15:40] <JakeA> Thanks for the link, exactly what I was looking for. https://esdiscuss.org/topic/the-initialization-steps-for-web-browsers#content-18 appears to be the closest to confirmation
  333. # [15:40] <JakeA> And yeah, awbjs wasn't being too helpful in that thread
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  352. # [16:40] <annevk> JakeA: I think https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=874571 and https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1169307 are the Firefox issues btw
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  354. # [16:41] <JakeA> annevk: cheers! I might get you to proofread this tomorrow if you have time
  355. # [16:43] <wanderview> annevk: so does our broken microtask implementation block something significant? looking for a way to prioritize it to get someone to work it
  356. # [16:44] <JakeA> wanderview: you can't promisify indexedDB https://github.com/w3c/IndexedDB/issues/27
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  358. # [16:45] <JakeA> wanderview: I wrote a promisified version of IDB, but it only works in Chrome due to the microtask thing https://github.com/jakearchibald/indexeddb-promised/blob/master/test/idb.js#L18
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  360. # [16:46] <wanderview> JakeA: you mean you can't write a polyfill that works?
  361. # [16:46] <JakeA> wanderview: yep, there's no way to get a value & write a value within the same transaction, as promise callbacks happen too late
  362. # [16:47] <JakeA> same goes for iterating over cursors
  363. # [16:48] <wanderview> hmm, I see... I'm not sure that's enough to raise the priority unfortunately... I guess we can ask bz when he returns from holiday
  364. # [16:51] <wanderview> annevk: maybe we should write a bug about this specific problem... since not sure anyone will see it buried in the comments on the other bug
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  367. # [17:02] <annevk> JakeA: are you writing a patch for HTML?
  368. # [17:02] <annevk> wanderview: we could I guess
  369. # [17:03] <JakeA> annevk: for what?
  370. # [17:03] <annevk> JakeA: you were asking for proofreading
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  372. # [17:04] <JakeA> annevk: ohh sorry, no, I'm writing an article on tasks microtasks & jobs. You mentioned the bugs right after I saw https://twitter.com/briankardell/status/631095683559387136 so thought you'd seen it
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  375. # [17:05] <annevk> JakeA: ah, I only saw your original tweet
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  404. # [18:21] <Domenic> JakeA: yay, thus proving my strategy of never actually writing anything in my blog post backlog, since other people will do so eventually anyway
  405. # [18:21] <Domenic> JakeA: can you emphasize how jobs are a stupid non-real-world abstraction that just make things complicated by pretending they're relevant. they make me angry.
  406. # [18:21] <annevk> wanderview: JakeA: I filed https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1193394 specifically on the topic of promises and microtasks
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  408. # [18:22] <annevk> Domenic: when can we fix awbjs mistakes? es-discuss does not make me hopeful
  409. # [18:22] <Domenic> give brian some time to settle in, and we'll see.
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  414. # [18:24] <JakeA> Domenic: haha, so what should ECMAScript have done instead? Offered an API to the queue so microtasks could just use that?
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  416. # [18:24] <Domenic> JakeA: just actually worked with the real-world concept of microtasks, IMO.
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  418. # [18:25] <wanderview> JakeA: there seems to be an excellent opportunity for a "Domenic is angry" picture here
  419. # [18:25] <Domenic> Pretending there is this abstract separation of "abstract job which could in theory be anything" is silly when all engines intend to implement in the exact same way.
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  421. # [18:25] <wanderview> from your last blog post we know you are a wiz with photoshop...
  422. # [18:25] <Domenic> oh dear
  423. # [18:25] <JakeA> haha
  424. # [18:25] <Domenic> I still never found out why I was on a slide at jqConf
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  426. # [18:28] <annevk> JakeA: I think the best would have been for ECMAScript to just do HostEnqueue(potential metadata, the task) and have some requirements around ordering for hosts
  427. # [18:29] <JakeA> annevk: that would have covered the microtask listener behaviour automatically, since the stack would be empty between listener calls, so it'd do the right thing
  428. # [18:31] <Domenic> annevk: wait, that's basically what ES does.
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  430. # [18:31] <annevk> Domenic: see the HTML ES6 integration bug for how much harder ES makes it
  431. # [18:31] <annevk> (referenced above somewhere)
  432. # [18:32] <Domenic> Ah right it tried to take over initialization somehow
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  453. # [19:02] <Domenic> TabAtkins: ping https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/issues/438#issuecomment-129662299
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  457. # [19:13] <TabAtkins> Domenic: It strikes me that I might not have the id generation correct for dfn-headings. I think the heading will generate an id first and then won't generate one as a dfn.
  458. # [19:13] <Domenic> TabAtkins: I've heard of a technique called unit tests that might help in this kind of situation ;)
  459. # [19:14] <TabAtkins> I've heard of those, but I dont' think they're real.
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  504. # [21:06] <Domenic> bterlson: would you say Edge has "no public signals" for Array.prototype.includes, or "public support"
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  519. # [22:07] <bterlson> Domenic: I think the latter as I don't recall talking about it
  520. # [22:08] <Domenic> bterlson: as in, no objections, so your default position for TC39-supported things is public support?
  521. # [22:08] <bterlson> err, I meant former not latter
  522. # [22:08] <Domenic> ah right ok
  523. # [22:08] <bterlson> there have been no public signals
  524. # [22:08] <bterlson> BUT
  525. # [22:08] <bterlson> can I make one now? ;)
  526. # [22:08] <Domenic> yep!
  527. # [22:08] <bterlson> do you need to link to something
  528. # [22:08] <bterlson> ?
  529. # [22:09] <Domenic> chat logs should be fine :)
  530. # [22:09] <bterlson> how is public support defined anyway?
  531. # [22:09] <bterlson> saying "yeah we'll implement that" is sufficient?
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  533. # [22:10] <Domenic> yeah pretty much
  534. # [22:10] <bterlson> because assuming Array.prototype.includes works on the web we will def implement it :-P
  535. # [22:10] <Domenic> as distinct from "that's a bad idea" or "we have no comment at this time and will leave you in suspense"
  536. # [22:10] <bterlson> no evidence yet to suggest it's a bad idea
  537. # [22:10] <bterlson> :-P
  538. # [22:10] <Domenic> i'll take it! :)
  539. # [22:10] <bterlson> haha
  540. # [22:10] <bterlson> nice
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  542. # [22:12] <Domenic> sigh the logs for this channel are over HTTP, so sad so sad.
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  547. # [22:22] <Ms2ger> Domenic, I'm sure krijnhoetmer would be happy for you to pay for https ;)
  548. # [22:23] <Domenic> Ms2ger: I'm happy to walk him through how to create a free cloudflare account.
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  566. # Session Close: Wed Aug 12 00:00:00 2015

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