/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2015-11-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Nov 25 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  97. # [04:13] <JonathanNeal> Can anyone show me an example of traditional typographical shorthand notation where a slash is used to separate the font size and line height?
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  100. # [04:26] <JonathanNeal> > The syntax of this property is based on a traditional typographical shorthand notation to set multiple properties related to fonts. — http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-fonts/#font-prop
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  102. # [04:32] <boogyman> JonathanNeal: I don't know that it specifically relates to the optical size / line-height relationship, but rather the means of defining multiple characteristics
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  105. # [04:46] <JonathanNeal> @boogyman, would you know why that syntax was used then, over say, spaces?
  106. # [04:49] <boogyman> I can speculate that since those are the two "numeric" characteristics, it was easiest to describe using the non-standard delimiter. eg, the other characteristics don't really overlap at all
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  110. # [05:12] <astearns> JonathanNeal: I have seen 10/12 etc. notation for size/leading, usually in books on pre-desktop-publishing usage
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  166. # [09:18] <annevk> "I presume, then, you have a W3C approved, feature-complete alternative implementation to SMIL with solid reasons for deprecating the specification."
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  176. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> "I'm simply not confident you have the chops to lead the way in the area of web development standards."
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  182. # [09:59] <philipj> What are you quoting from? :)
  183. # [10:02] <annevk> blink-dev <3
  184. # [10:03] <annevk> I hadn't really read past the initial bit of the email, but it's a real gem
  185. # [10:03] <annevk> "SVG is the only really capable image format that offers superb scalability and flexibility inside the XHTML framework."
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  188. # [10:04] <annevk> "I'm coming to a place where I don't care if Web & CSS animations will walk my dog and cook my breakfast."
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  191. # [10:11] <roc> who?
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  197. # [10:21] <annevk> roc: I don't know who this person is, it's just the last email in the SMIL deprecation thread on blink-dev
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  212. # [11:14] <nox> annevk: I don't usually care about tone, but wow.
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  220. # [11:29] <jochen__> annevk: does fetch talk about 3xx redirects at all?
  221. # [11:29] <annevk> jochen__: yes
  222. # [11:29] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@67.213.81.161)
  223. # [11:30] <annevk> jochen__: https://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#http-fetch step 5
  224. # [11:31] <jgraham> nox: People like that are an occupational hazard of working on web standards
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  226. # [11:32] <nox> jgraham: I don't even comprehend why he would mention that the deprecation is bad because Blink is FOSS.
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  228. # [11:33] <nox> "As an aside but wholly related, here's a gem in the form of a significant SMIL bug report dating back to 2011 that still hasn't been fixed. Given this and what I consider an ill-considered deprication announcement I'm simply not confident you have the chops to lead the way in the area of web development standards." What.
  229. # [11:33] <nox> Oh MikeSmith had pasted that part, never mind.
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  234. # [11:58] <jochen__> annevk, maybe I'm blind that step 5 already doesn't tell what to do with the referrer, no?
  235. # [11:58] <annevk> jochen__: yeah, we probably need to update that somehow
  236. # [11:58] <annevk> jochen__: if redirects affect the referrer
  237. # [11:58] <annevk> jochen__: which I guess they do
  238. # [11:59] <annevk> jochen__: seems like something that's not well defined at the moment
  239. # [11:59] <jochen__> at least not in fetch
  240. # [11:59] <jochen__> i'm pretty sure that http says what to do on downgrade
  241. # [12:03] <annevk> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-5.5.2 doesn't say much
  242. # [12:04] <jgraham> nox: Logical arguments aren't a strong feature of the "you're all inept and shouldn't be allowed to do this work" rants
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  245. # [12:12] <annevk> mkwst: any ideas on how to move https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/323 forward?
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  262. # [13:41] <zcorpan> it's annoying that github issue referencing doesn't work when it's in the PR title
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  272. # [13:57] <nox> If only that was the only annoying thing.
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  275. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> amen
  276. # [14:06] <jochen__> annevk, ship it and see what explodes?
  277. # [14:06] <annevk> jochen__: :-)
  278. # [14:07] <annevk> jochen__: try shipping something where A can only navigate B if A is B
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  281. # [14:11] <zcorpan> jgraham: is it known that files with spaces in the file name get 404ed by wpt-serve?
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  289. # [14:27] * zcorpan looks at https://github.com/w3c/wptserve/blob/master/wptserve/handlers.py but can't see anything obvious to fix
  290. # [14:34] <yoav_> annevk: comments on not rejecting invalid values as per https://github.com/whatwg/dom/pull/114#issuecomment-159568709 ?
  291. # [14:34] * yoav_ is now known as yoav
  292. # [14:37] <annevk> yoav: not really, having a bit of a hard time seeing what an ideal API might be here given the constraints
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  294. # [14:38] <yoav> OK
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  297. # [15:02] <zcorpan> jgraham: filed https://github.com/w3c/wptserve/issues/69
  298. # [15:04] <zcorpan> yoav: i suppose all-truthy strings is OK since code is going to care about legacy clients, and strings makes it more self-documenting than mystery falsy values
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  300. # [15:05] <yoav> zcorpan: OK, so now the main question is whether invalid values should be rejected?
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  302. # [15:06] <zcorpan> yoav: yeah. it was Domenic who wanted that, mostly?
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  304. # [15:08] <Domenic> I still think it would be nice. If we're not going to do a solution that tries to sync what's actually added with what's supported, then we should just go with relList.supportedValues = ["foo", "bar", "baz", ...] or relList.supports("foo"), and accept that spec authors will have to be careful to synchronize supportedValues with reality.
  305. # [15:10] <zcorpan> relList.supports('foo') would be OK with me. we can write wpt tests that check that the claim matches the actual support
  306. # [15:10] <Domenic> does it return a boolean or an enum?
  307. # [15:10] <zcorpan> boolean. it doesn't have the problem that add() has because supports() doesn't exist today
  308. # [15:11] <zcorpan> hmm wait
  309. # [15:11] <zcorpan> there was this other case also
  310. # [15:11] <zcorpan> <a>.relList or other going from n/a to having a set of supported keywords
  311. # [15:12] <Domenic> I don't really understand how that's ever going to make sense
  312. # [15:12] <Domenic> If it's going to have a set of supported keywords we should do that now
  313. # [15:13] <Domenic> But I don't see why it ever would
  314. # [15:13] <zcorpan> to check for <a rel=noopener>?
  315. # [15:13] <Domenic> Then we should define the set of supported keywords for <a rel> now
  316. # [15:14] <zcorpan> yes, we should
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  318. # [15:14] <Domenic> Then we can go back to .add :P. (Or supports I guess, whatever.)
  319. # [15:15] <Domenic> Next question: does "supports" mean "is specified" or does it mean "has some affect on browser processing"
  320. # [15:15] <zcorpan> and does classList.supports() exist at all, and if it does, what does it return?
  321. # [15:15] <zcorpan> the latter
  322. # [15:15] <Domenic> e.g., what does a.relList.supports("tag") return
  323. # [15:15] <Domenic> OK so a.relList.supports("tag") is false
  324. # [15:15] <Domenic> I think classList.supports("anything without a NUL byte") is true
  325. # [15:16] <zcorpan> right (re "tag")
  326. # [15:16] <zcorpan> why? (and why "anything without a NUL byte"?)
  327. # [15:17] <Domenic> because the browser now includes the class name you added in the list of things CSS selectors match, and because http://stackoverflow.com/a/6732899/3191
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  330. # [15:18] <Domenic> although clicking through that StackOverflow answer to the spec I can't find the NUL byte clause
  331. # [15:19] <zcorpan> having a DOM API be affected of css syntax seems a bit weird
  332. # [15:19] <zcorpan> you can use class without using css
  333. # [15:20] <Domenic> Is it weirder than having a DOM API be affected by the preload spec?
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  335. # [15:20] <zcorpan> i don't know what that is referring to
  336. # [15:21] <zcorpan> but maybe besides the point :-)
  337. # [15:21] <Domenic> a.relList.supports("preload") is determined by the fact that the preload spec says "preload" rel has normative impact
  338. # [15:21] <Domenic> despite .supports() being a DOM API
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  340. # [15:22] <Domenic> Let me summarize this on the issue tracker... where's the latest place...
  341. # [15:23] <zcorpan> ok, sure, but classes don't do anything on their own, so they're not "supported" in that sense. unless we had classes with default styling, maybe
  342. # [15:25] <zcorpan> there isn't a use case for supports() on classList, it just gets the API by accident because it's also a DOMTokenList
  343. # [15:25] <zcorpan> maybe we should have a new interface
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  354. # [15:47] <annevk> Domenic: zcorpan: note that two classes means four classes due to DOMSettableTokenList
  355. # [15:48] <zcorpan> yeah
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  357. # [15:48] <zcorpan> except we might only need 3
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  359. # [15:49] <annevk> zcorpan: HTML has been patched for both DOMTokenList and DOMSettableTokenList users to add a concept of supported tokens
  360. # [15:50] <Domenic> ... why *isn't* classList a DOMSettableTokenList
  361. # [15:50] <annevk> Domenic: I think because className exists
  362. # [15:50] <Domenic> Why isn't everything a DOMSettableTokenList
  363. # [15:50] <Domenic> Stupid /topic
  364. # [15:50] <annevk> We might be able to do that...
  365. # [15:51] <zcorpan> annevk: yes. but there's no DOMSettableTokenList other than <iframe sandbox>, is there?
  366. # [15:51] <annevk> zcorpan: maybe not with supported values
  367. # [15:52] <annevk> zcorpan: but there's <a>.ping and <link>.sizes
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  369. # [15:53] <Domenic> It would be nice to rationalize everything to [PutForwards=appropriateProperty] DOMSettableTokenList
  370. # [15:53] <zcorpan> oh ok yeah. and dropzone
  371. # [15:53] <Domenic> Then we could teach new web developers classList and never teach them className
  372. # [15:53] <Domenic> I guess [PutForwards] isn't that great of a behavior to teach
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  374. # [15:54] <Domenic> Still, the fact that we have so many different patterns for this same idiom is weird
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  376. # [15:55] <zcorpan> switching to [PutForwards] and DOMSettableTokenList everywhere seems good
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  378. # [15:57] <annevk> Is it only HTML that uses DOMTokenList?
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  380. # [15:59] <Domenic> annevk: yes in Blink; where's Gecko's codesearch again? https://code.google.com/p/chromium/codesearch#search/&q=DOMTokenList%20file:%5C.idl&sq=package:chromium&type=cs
  381. # [15:59] <Domenic> Wait lol Blink doesn't even use DOMTokenList anywhere
  382. # [16:00] <Domenic> Except as a base class for DOMSettableTokenList
  383. # [16:02] <Ms2ger> Domenic, mxr.mozilla.org
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  385. # [16:03] <Domenic> Oh Blink has classList at least nevermind
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  387. # [16:03] <Domenic> But yeah seems like's yes for Gecko as well https://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/search?string=DOMTokenList&find=.idl
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  390. # [16:05] <annevk> Domenic: I'll file an issue suggesting this simplification and then we can see what folks say
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  392. # [16:08] <annevk> https://github.com/whatwg/dom/issues/119
  393. # [16:10] <annevk> https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/358
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  405. # [16:54] <zcorpan> The HTML Working Group has published a W3C Recommendation of W3C DOM4.
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  407. # [16:56] <Domenic> I guess the good part is that it'll become increasingly obvious what a joke it is given all the changes since the last snapshot.
  408. # [16:57] <Ms2ger> Domenic, changes? Why? The W3C has declared everything in DOM4 is implemented perfectly interoperably!
  409. # [16:57] <zcorpan> ok so can we fix Document vs HTMLDocument already?
  410. # [16:58] <Domenic> Document vs HTMLDocument seems like Attr as a Node... someone needs to try the current spec, nobody but Servo is brave enough to d oso
  411. # [16:58] <annevk> zcorpan: can you?
  412. # [16:58] * wilsonpage is now known as wilsonpage-away
  413. # [16:59] <annevk> zcorpan: even if we are to admit defeat, defining the appropriate Document object for each context and then what properties each must expose is quite a big undertaking
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  415. # [16:59] <Ms2ger> Is there a new reason to give up?
  416. # [17:00] <zcorpan> i meant fix as in implement what is specced now
  417. # [17:00] <zcorpan> i can't do it because i'm not a browser dev :-]
  418. # [17:02] <Domenic> jsdom is working on it!
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  428. # [17:09] <gsnedders> zcorpan: become a browser dev!
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  435. # [17:13] <gsnedders> jgraham: can you prod https://github.com/html5lib/html5lib-python/pull/198 such that Critic realises it exists and creates a review for it?
  436. # [17:14] <gsnedders> jgraham: also opinions welcome on whether it's worthwhile rewriting the history even more
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  450. # [18:05] <annevk> Domenic: JakeA: https://twitter.com/phuunet/status/669515142057598976
  451. # [18:06] * annevk yawns
  452. # [18:07] <annevk> MikeSmith: http://www.publickey1.jp/blog/15/html5whatwgw3c_tpac_2015.html is quite popular on Twitter, anything noteworthy?
  453. # [18:09] <JakeA> *sigh*
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  457. # [18:14] <Domenic> Replied
  458. # [18:15] <Domenic> Google translate says that WHATWG is mostly mentioned in their "future of HTML" section
  459. # [18:17] <zcorpan> http://services.w3.org/htmldiff?doc1=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2F2015%2FREC-dom-20151119%2F&doc2=https%3A%2F%2Fdom.spec.whatwg.org%2F
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  481. # [19:30] <zcorpan> annevk: see https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=324922#c6 for why i dislike quirks mode test cases :-)
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  485. # [19:41] <JonathanNeal> Anyone here good at math? I am trying to calculate things like cover and contain in JavaScript.
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  493. # [19:59] <boogyman> JonathanNeal: did you get a more authoritative opinion to your question about font shorthand notation?
  494. # [19:59] <JonathanNeal> boogyman, yes. You can read the thread here: https://twitter.com/tabatkins/status/669384360903073792
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  496. # [20:01] <boogyman> ah, so I wasn't too far off
  497. # [20:01] <boogyman> good to know, thanks.
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  503. # [20:11] <JonathanNeal> I used to know how to do the math. Something about getting the aspect ratios, min/max, produce result.
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  508. # [20:33] <zcorpan> JonathanNeal: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/3766 ? (the centering can probably be done in better ways, and maybe the other thing also)
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  518. # [20:53] <JonathanNeal> zcorpan: thanks, I’ll review that.
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  521. # [21:04] <smaug____> is there some "process" to backout spec changes
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  523. # [21:04] <smaug____> I mean in those cases when a change was either clearly wrong or controversial, it probably should be backed out sooner than later
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  528. # [21:05] <Domenic> No process, what do you think this is :P. Submit a PR or open an issue requesting an editor does it?
  529. # [21:08] <smaug____> I was kind of hoping some nice tool where one could easily backout changes :)
  530. # [21:08] <smaug____> not sure who should have rights to use such tool
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  533. # [21:09] <smaug____> (tokenlist.add changes just came to my mind)
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  535. # [21:10] <Domenic> Yeah, I mean, `git revert` is a pretty good approximation of that tool
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  543. # [21:17] <gsnedders> jgraham: so yeah, I want to html5lib-python#198 asap given it allows us to get up-to-date with tests with no failures
  544. # [21:18] <smaug____> "navigation context" isn't any real spec thing, right?
  545. # [21:18] * smaug____ tries to understand web perf wg specs
  546. # [21:19] <gsnedders> smaug____: I've certainly never heard of it!
  547. # [21:20] <smaug____> bah, how does one change github issue title?
  548. # [21:20] <gsnedders> press the edit button to the left of it?
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  550. # [21:20] <smaug____> doesn't work
  551. # [21:20] <gsnedders> hmm, wfm
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  589. # [23:11] * Quits: jerairrest (184d60eb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.77.96.235) (Quit: Page closed)
  590. # [23:15] * Joins: jdaggett_ (~jdaggett@ae021089.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
  591. # [23:18] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.191.173) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  592. # [23:18] * Joins: jensnockert (~jensnocke@84.219.248.21)
  593. # [23:19] * Quits: jdaggett_ (~jdaggett@ae021089.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Quit: jdaggett_)
  594. # [23:29] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-178-200-61-79.hsi07.unitymediagroup.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  595. # [23:30] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  596. # [23:32] * Joins: encryptd_fractal (~encryptd_@c-24-7-238-5.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
  597. # [23:33] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
  598. # [23:35] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@guest-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  599. # [23:37] * Quits: thinkxl (thinkxl@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-aqsrrkrcobqwchua) (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  600. # [23:37] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  601. # [23:46] * Quits: encryptd_fractal (~encryptd_@c-24-7-238-5.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  602. # [23:48] * Joins: jdaggett_ (~jdaggett@103.5.140.143)
  603. # [23:52] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@c-73-170-106-174.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  604. # [23:58] * Quits: jensnockert (~jensnocke@84.219.248.21) (Remote host closed the connection)
  605. # [23:58] * Joins: jdaggett__ (~jdaggett@103.5.140.143)
  606. # Session Close: Thu Nov 26 00:00:00 2015

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